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The "up-to-the-minute Market Data" thread

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posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 09:39 PM
reply to post by redhatty

Well taking into consideration the commitment at the expenses of the tax payer that not banking institution or government backed company will be allow to fail you can imagine how much money is been funneled right now without the knowledge of the tax payer as its not longer needed to keep us informed.

Geithner Does Not Have the Answer to the Banking Crisis ?

No way in hell but he seems to know how to do it, just keep pumping money into it.

Outstanding mortgages total $11 trillion plus. Half were financed through Fannie Mae and other government banks. The balance were written by commercial banks, held as straight mortgages or bundled into collateralized-debt-obligations (CDOs) held by banks and fixed-income investors.

As housing prices fall, mortgage losses mount and will likely reach another $1 trillion. Banks take charges against capital to cover losses and could deplete capital and become insolvent. Through TARP, Treasury is boosting bank capital by buying dividend paying preferred shares, and is financing these purchases by selling $750 billion in bonds.

As housing prices fall, loan defaults and losses rise, and the CDOs held by banks fall in value. Housing prices are down by 27 percent since August 2006, and could easily fall another 15 or 25 percent.

About $400 billion in TARP funds are committed, and with housing prices dropping faster than Galileo’s rock, the remaining $350 billion will not be enough.

The Treasury is performing stress tests on the 19 largest banks to determine whether their common share equity could cover prospective losses. Citigroup and others will come up short if Treasury is honest about how much housing prices could fall.

[edit on 15-3-2009 by marg6043]

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 09:51 PM
reply to post by marg6043
...but wait...there's more!!!

Bank of England's Bulletin Says U.K. Mortgage Bond Markets May Stay Shut

March 16 (Bloomberg) -- U.K. residential mortgage-backed bond markets may stay shut throughout the rest of this year as banks nurse losses from the financial crisis, according to the Bank of England’s contacts.

“Overall liquidity conditions have yet to normalize to any significant degree,” the central bank said in its quarterly bulletin today. “Residential mortgage-backed securities (RMBS) markets remained effectively closed, at least for publicly issued securities. In general, contacts did not expect a sustained improvement in market conditions during 2009.”

Average asking prices for a home dropped 9 percent this month from a year earlier as buyers struggled to obtain home loans, Rightmove Plc said today. The British economy is in the throes of its worst contraction for three decades, threatening to exacerbate losses at banks stung by the financial crisis.

The central bank said in its report that credit costs rose last month as institutions became more reluctant to lend to each other. While the three-month London Interbank Offered Rate has fallen more than 4.4 percentage points since last year’s peak, the Libor-OIS spread, a gauge of banks’ reluctance to lend, widened to a two-month high on March 11.
...another shocker???

This also is gonna leave a mark...

A lot a securitys low can they go? How long can they keep them fenced up?

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:02 PM
Hmmm, I thought China was "well capitalized" Weren't they doing stimulus and having all kinds of excess reserves??? Then why this...

Chinese airline suspends flights on financial woes

Authorities ordered a private Chinese airline to suspend its operations Sunday because of debts owed to General Electric Co.'s aviation subsidiary, amid a travel slump caused by global economic turmoil.

East Star Airlines, based in the central Chinese city of Wuhan, was told to halt flights as of Sunday, the city government said in a statement.

No one at the airline was available for comment Sunday, according to an operator who answered calls to the company's general inquiry line.

A woman who answered the phone at the airline's ticket sales office confirmed that flights have stopped, but said she did not have details.

No mention of the order was made on its Web site.

The economic slowdown has hurt all of China's airlines, but the country's handful of private carriers are particularly affected since they cannot count on the huge government bailouts that several state-run carriers are now seeking.

Sunday's statement said a regional branch of the General Administration of Civil Aviation of China issued the order after a request from the Wuhan city government.

The city government said on its Web site the airline had failed to pay plane rental fees to Fairfield, Conn.-based GE Commercial Aviation Services, General Electric's aircraft leasing company.

The aircraft firm sought help from the local government and was applying to begin legal proceedings against the airline, the government said.

East Star operates 18 domestic routes and arrangements were being made to place East Air ticket holders on flights with other carriers, the aviation administration said in a statement.

China's first private airline, Okay Airways, began a planned one-month suspension of passenger service in December after skittish airports insisted on cash to refuel its planes.

The carrier was suffering from financial and management woes.

In January, state media reported that China gave struggling airlines a $360 million tax break and $26 billion in loans to its main aircraft maker to try to shore up the industry.

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:04 PM
reply to post by Hx3_1963

Darn for the first time in 10 years, my husband and I has been going around looking at those houses that we never even dreamed to consider before.
is so many houses for sale all over is not funny.

Another shocker, it seems that AIG has showing where our tax payer money has gone.

A.I.G. Reveals Biggest Beneficiaries of Its Rescue (SENDS BILLIONS OUT OF COUNTRY!!!) by David9176'

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:08 PM
Didn't notice this posted, if a repeat, my apologies...

TALF Is Reworked After Investors Balk

After failing to sign up enough investors in time to launch the Term Asset-Backed Loan Facility early this coming week, the Federal Reserve and Wall Street are reworking the TALF program at the 11th hour.

The Fed delayed the program's launch by two days, until Thursday. Wall Street dealers, including J.P. Morgan Chase & Co. and Barclays PLC's Barclays Capital, have created vehicles to participate in the TALF that would allow investors in the program to circumvent many of the restrictions laid out by the Fed. The vehicles resemble collateralized debt obligations, or CDOs, and use some of the financial engineering that was partially responsible for the collapse of the credit markets.

The Fed, eager to get what it hopes will be a $1 trillion program up and running, has blessed the vehicles because they open the TALF up to a much larger group of investors, say people familiar with the matter.

The vehicles emerged late in the past week, after investors cringed at signing agreements with Wall Street firms that would facilitate the Fed's loans. They objected to the level of scrutiny that dealers would have over their books, arguing that the dealers' rules attached too many strings. Dealers were saying they take plenty of risk to facilitate the program and need to be protected in situations where the collateral or the client made mistakes or wound up ineligible.

The Fed's main goal in forming the TALF is to bring to life the asset-backed securities market that effectively subsidizes loans to consumers and businesses to buy cars, pay for their educations, buy farm equipment or use credit cards. The Fed has said it could expand the TALF to include commercial and residential mortgage lending.

Through the program, an investment fund can put down $5 to $14 for every $100 it plans to spend, borrowing the remaining $95 to $86 cheaply from the Fed. It agrees to buy highly rated securities issued by lenders that the Fed deems eligible collateral for the loans.

Much is at stake for TALF, including more than $10 billion in expected deals for companies, including auto lender World Omni Financial Corp. and Ford Motor Co.'s Ford Motor Credit Co., say bankers. Likewise, the Fed has a lot riding on the program after it expanded its scope before the launch.

"Should the TALF not be embraced enthusiastically by the financial community, the Fed will have to turn to further alternative steps to repair the credit system," said Joseph Brusuelas, economist at Moody's

Under the new proposal, a bank such as Barclays or J.P. Morgan would set up a trust to buy securities with money borrowed from the Fed. The trust would then sell investors securities in the trust. Those securities would give returns similar to the TALF loan, but without the strings attached.

The dealers say they could create markets for these derivative securities to trade, and a presentation by Barclays says they may be rated by credit-ratings companies and listed on the Irish Stock Exchange, a home for many CDOs.

The vehicles also would make it easier for investors that aren't eligible for TALF loans to buy into the program, like investors that are restricted by their investment guidelines from using borrowed money to buy securities. Smaller hedge funds that can't vie for large allocations of deals could also buy in through these vehicles.

Some investors have raised concerns, however, noting that the structure puts these dealers at an advantage in bidding and influencing the price of new offerings. They also say the derivative securities present old and familiar problems, such as keeping the end holder of the risk of the TALF securities several steps away from the pricing of that risk.

I guess we can officially start considering the FED as a Hedge Fund now

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:11 PM
reply to post by redhatty
World-Beating China Rally Doomed by PetroChina's 52% Discount in Hong Kong

Foreign Direct Investment in China Falls for Fifth Month on Global Crisis

China's Forex Agency Loses Tens of Billions on Global Stocks, FT Reports

Maybe not so much as has been advertised?

The old Chinese military strategy?
"Make your opponent believe you are stronger than you actually are"?

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:15 PM
reply to post by Hx3_1963

Maybe Chinese strategy is the answer - I found this one particularly interesting because it was GE that was not paid - a US company with more than enough bad rumors haunting it right now

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:22 PM
S&P 500 -3.40 751.20 3/15 10:58pm
Fair Value 753.29 3/14 9:45am
Difference* -2.09

NASDAQ -5.50 1162.50 3/15 10:32pm
Fair Value 1169.50 3/14 9:45am
Difference* -7.00

Dow Jones -27.00 7152.00 3/15 10:08pm
Nikkei 225 7,754.11 10:30PM ET 184.83 (2.44%) (lunch)
Straits Times 1,563.98 11:21PM ET -13.54 (-0.86%)
Hang Seng 12,752.81 11:06PM ET 227.01 (1.81%)
Shanghai Composite 2,136.615 10:41PM ET 7.767 (0.36%)

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:23 PM
reply to post by redhatty

Hey Red...Doesn't that sound too familiar? I mean if the TALF is so similar to the very problem that got us into this mess, what reassurance would those people read investment organizations have to invest in these so called bad paper CDO's.

Could it be that the Government will "guarantee" the buyers a certain level of return. And if that level is not met, what is to keep the Fed from printing even more money to "payoff" those guarantees thus guaranteeing even more trouble down the line in the form of not only inflation, but the unwillingness for our biggest creditors like China and others to refuse to buy our dollar bonds since obviously the dollar is going to fall and ultimately fail in short order.

The problem has become self perpetuating so to speak.

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:25 PM
reply to post by TH3ON3

NO the government is doing better, they are going to give away government backed loans to buy the toxic paper, If that is what you are talking about.

That is such a bargain as we the taxpayer will be actually the ones doing the backing.

Don't you love it?

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:28 PM
It's nice to see less numbers - but like someone else said - it's the weekend.

Sun 3-15-2009

Penguin LLC/Iceberg Enterprises -150+
NorSask Forest Products Shuts Mill -40
Art Gallery Of Ontario -100
Celestica Inc. Closing Plant -81
Butte County Teachers -332
Excela Health -70
Dielectric Solutions Laying Off
Eaton Closing Indiana Plant -103
Timken Idles Plant For 2 Weeks -355
Spot Runner -60
Victorville CA Schools -295
Possible Anderson Automatics -23

Still - it's nice to see low numbers

(although not long ago there were no numbers....)

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:31 PM

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by TH3ON3

NO the government is doing better, they are going to give away government backed loans to buy the toxic paper, If that is what you are talking about.

That is such a bargain as we the taxpayer will be actually the ones doing the backing.

Don't you love it?

Expectations are that these will equal out, or we will slightly benefit in the end. I think once people start really getting into this, and the more information that becomes available people will start getting a better understanding of what is going on.

Its really going to be ok down the line guys, I think you are all missing the boat thats taking off from right here at least till Dow 8000 (Based on only what I have said previously)

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:31 PM

Originally posted by marg6043
reply to post by TH3ON3

NO the government is doing better, they are going to give away government backed loans to buy the toxic paper, If that is what you are talking about.

That is such a bargain as we the taxpayer will be actually the ones doing the backing.

Don't you love it?

So can I buy some of that bad paper by getting a "loan" from the government? And then of course I have nothing to lose since it's not my money that I'm using, but it gets the "bad" paper off the banks ledger?

What a sham this has become. I mean it is so obviously fraudulent even now dressed up by the government.

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:35 PM
reply to post by TH3ON3

Well it kinda becomes a question of, Do you want to invest in something that is backed by "the full faith and credit of the US (taxpayer)" or backed by the "full faith and credit of the Federal Reserve Bank?? To me the Fed is going into DIRECT competition here with the treasuries that are offered by the govt.

If I am understanding it correctly, the plan is something like this:

Use the new US Governments TALF program to purchase AAA rated Asset Backed Securities (ABS).

TALF program provides up to 20:1 leverage for 3 years.

Current fixed rate financing rate will be around 3% while the current yield on the securities is 4.5% to 5%.

Leverage allows for annual returns of 15% to 20%.

Fund I will make monthly distributions of current income minus expenses.

Fund I will require a 3 year lock out of principal due to use of leverage.

TALF loans will have a term of up to3 years, be non-recourse to the borrower, and will be fully secured by eligible ABS.

In event of default, the ABS collateral is transferred to an Special Purpose Vehicle (SPV) and the first $20 billion in losses will be absorbed by the treasury via TARP funds.

Underlying credit exposures initially must be auto loans, student loans, credit card loans, or small business loans fully guaranteed as to principal and interest by the U.S. Small Business Loan Administration.

Any U.S. company that owns eligible collateral, may borrow from the TALF, provided the company maintains an account relationship with a primary dealer.

A company can borrow from the TALF twice a month, one fixed-rate and one floating-rate loan each.

I find it awfully complicated, and as we have learned, the more complicated they can make it, the better opportunity for folks to get Scroomed

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:47 PM
reply to post by redhatty

Yes but don't you mean the AAA rated that should really be BBB- rated?

Did anyone happen to catch the CNBC program on tonight called "House Of Cards?"

It was a shocking expose of just how we got into this mess, but it focused on mainly the housing mortgage bust.

What about the credit crisis forming even now by those who aren't able to refinance their homes any longer because of the falling values. Most have already maxed out their cards and combined with the other troubles it is a very bad indication of things to come.

That is the self perpetuating part that has yet to raise it's ugly head.

I still think we will rally in the markets until the final shoe on this eight legged octopus falls, which will be in the fall just after the 3rd quarter retail
reports and unemployment info comes back so negative.

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:47 PM
*****European Banks Desperate To Avoid Recognizing Losses On Their 8 Trillion Us Holding*****

This is SCARY!!

Key points:

European banks own 8 trillion US assets (treasuries, agencies, consumer loans, etc…) and they are losing access to their dollar funding. If European banks are forced to sell their US assets, it will crash the credit markets, and they will have to recognize enormous losses. Since the fed is desperate to prevent the collapse of the US financial system, it lent those European banks 600 billion dollars so that they wouldn’t be forced to sell. Meanwhile, European banks accepted this 600 billion because they don’t want to recognize losses on their toxic US securities.

What is going to happen? Well in my last entry, I highlighted how:

“When the American economy fell into depression, US banks recalled their loans, causing the German banking system to collapse”

The same thing will happen in 2009, except the roles will be reversed. As Europe falls into a depression, European banks will recalled their loans and sell off dollar assets, causing the US banking system to collapse. Once this foreign liquidation and deleveraging of US assets begins, the current need for dollar financing will be replaced by desperate panic to escape America’s collapsing currency. Finally, like with US banks back in the 1930s, European banks will have to recognize enormous losses on their foreign holdings, making many of them insolvent.

It's a bit technical, but not too much so, do read the whole article for the reasons behind the author's belief

And right behind that, from the Media across the pond...

IMF poised to print billions of dollars in 'global quantitative easing'

The International Monetary Fund is poised to embark on what analysts have described as "global quantitative easing" by printing billions of dollars worth of a global "super-currency" in an unprecedented new effort to address the economic crisis.

Alistair Darling and senior figures in the US Treasury have been encouraging the Fund to issue hundreds of billions of dollars worth of so-called Special Drawing Rights in the coming months as part of its campaign to prevent the recession from turning into a global depression.

Should the move, which is up for discussion by the summit of G20 finance ministers this weekend, be adopted, it will represent a global equivalent of the Bank of England's plan to pump extra cash into the UK economy.

However, economists warned that the scheme could cause a major swell of inflation around the world as the newly-created money filters through the system. The idea has been suggested by a number of key figures, including billionaire investor George Soros and US Treasury adviser Ted Truman.

Simon Johnson, former chief economist at the IMF, said: "The principle behind it is that everyone would get bonus dollars and instead of the Federal Reserve having to print them, everyone gets them.

"The objective is to create a windfall of cash. However if everybody goes out and spends the money it could be very inflationary."

[edit on 3/15/09 by redhatty]

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:49 PM
link ticle/2009/03/13/AR2009031303025.html?hpid=topnews

This is a pretty interesting article about toxic debt loans

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:51 PM
reply to post by TH3ON3

You are absolutely correct, we cannot trust the ratings agencies and therefor, we cannot trust the securities being offered.

But then again, lack of trust is the #1 problem we have, isn't it?

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 10:57 PM
reply to post by redhatty

Hah Red...I do think we think alike. I was thinking tonight before I jumped on ATS how this whole scheme was like one kid buying a bunch of jelly beans and then cutting all of the single color ones in slices and then putting them back together to create a multi-colour "gourmet" bean and sell it to the silly kids for several times what it is worth because of the gourmet rating and the pretty colors.

Then I noticed you had changed your avatar to the unicorn, uhm shall I say manufacturing skittles for all the good people.

Too funny that coincidence.

posted on Mar, 15 2009 @ 11:02 PM
Still plenty of time before market open but...

S&P 500 -4.80 749.80 3/15 11:44pm
Fair Value 753.29 3/14 9:45am
Difference* -3.49

NASDAQ -5.50 1162.50 3/15 10:32pm
Fair Value 1169.50 3/14 9:45am
Difference* -7.00

Dow Jones -39.00 7140.00 3/15 11:44pm
Shanghai Composite 2,123.053 11:18PM ET -5.795 (-0.27%)
Jakarta Composite 1,326.82 11:58PM ET -0.62 (-0.05%)
Straits Times 1,561.24 12:01AM ET -16.28 (-1.03%)
Nikkei 225 7,745.24 11:42PM ET 175.96 (2.32%)

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