15 Year Old Girl Charged as Sex Offender

And its not Miley Cyrus???

I'm surprised this thread is still going.

I do understand people's concerns that this case could provide a loophole for child porn collectors. Except that it is illegal to possess child porn. So a 55-year-old with a computer full of images of naked 15-year-olds that he somehow got hold of is breaking the law. The 15-year-olds don't have to be charged with making pornography for him to be charged with possession.

And I absolutely agree that this is part of the lesson that girls and boys now need to learn: if you take pictures of yourself naked and send them to someone else, they may become public.

But that's part of the punishment meted out by parents, or at least it was when I was a teen. Parents are responsible not only for the "penal" part of punishing but also for the "educational" part of punishing. Sure, as a kid I hated the "we have your best interests in mind" line. And I seldom if ever admitted to my parents that their concerns made sense. But I heard them, and when they did make sense I changed my behavior.

P.S. to Res Ipsa – I've talked to both men and women who had sexual relationships with teachers or other authority figures when they were 15 and 16. Not enough to make this scientifically valid, certainly, but enough to raise my eyebrows. In the case of "consensual" relations (not rape through violence or threats) the men were more harmed by the experience, and carry deeper scars longer. (edited to fix screenname)

[edit on 10/16/08 by americandingbat]

Originally posted by skeptic1

The world is not black and white. It is only shades of gray. And, in this type of situation, there has to be a middle ground where we can agree she was wrong but also agree that she shouldn't have her life ruined because of it.

Yeah I agree with your thoughts on that

In fact I think our legal system even does. It leaves room for evaluating gray areas doesn't it? I think it does. Perhaps not enough, but surely it does?

I think some people are trying to use a strict sense of Law in a black and white sense when even the judicial system they are using embraces that a gray area exists. Determining 'motive' based on circumstantial evidence, and the subjective analysis by a jury, etc.

reply to post by schism85


If you can't make your point without engaging in personal attacks then it weakens your stance on the issue.

The fact still remains that inappropriate photographs were sent over a wireless telecommunications system.

Some in this thread feel that this is a non issue, that nothing has been done wrong and that this girl shouldn't be punished at all besides her phone being taken away.

This is complete bull. This in fact is an issue, it's an issue that causes great danger to young women across this country. It sets a bad precedent and example for our youth that this sort of behavior be condoned at all.

What scares me is if nothing happens to her at all as far as a punishment goes. I think this will open up a loophole for real pedophiles to exploit.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by logician magician

 

Oh is that what you were doing? Just being a devils advocate?

I see. Well never mind anything you said. It's no longer absurd. Thanks for being the voice of reason for all us with group-think

Being able to see both ends of reasoning allows one to better locate the center.

And, you have to be crazy if you don't think ATS - a conspiracy site- is a simmering pot of group think.

reply to post by whatukno


I think Iam allowed to do both, but thats besides the issue. Correct me if Iam wrong, but I haven't heard anyone but a few members say she shouldn't be punished at all. I think she should, I have said that over and over again. I just don't think the crime fits the charge. I think she should be reprimanded, phone taken away, grounded, counseling. But I think the state has no buissness in this issue.

I have asked you, a few times now.

What punishment do you think is right for her?

Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage
I think people’s reaction to that relationship to me has been a perfect example of how idiotic and presumptuous people are, and how society has mangled definitions of “pedophilia” and “rape” and “child”.

I don't know who is to blame for that mangling but I completely agree it's been mangled. Maybe it's just easier for people for people to think about issues like this when they think so black and white, so absolutely. It's easy to form conclusions about these issues when you exclude things like 'consent', 'romance', 'love', etc, and just look at the age factor. Maybe it's as simple as that? It's easier? People seem to like being able to point the finger and condemn, like it scores them points with God or something, heh.

Personally I think it's pretty apparent when it's a case of mutual relationship or if it's a case of statutory rape or exploitation. I am sure I would have looked at your relationship with your boyfriend of the time and figured out pretty quickly the age was a non issue, and they you two were completely consenting to a romantic relationship. So maybe I am wrong about my it being 'easier' idea... I think it's usually pretty easy to determine, if one actually bothers to look at the facts...

Originally posted by Dock6
She's a minor. Right ?

Photos of minors are illegal. Right ?

They are termed 'child pornography'. Right ?

We're OPPOSED to child-porn. Right ? ..... Right ? ... Or not ?

So where's the problem with the law as it was administered in this instance ?

If you say things like that you have to say them correctly - I'm sure everyone gets your meaning... But photos of minors are not Illegal, - or else EVERY family photo album would be illegal, photos of minors are just fine (on the whole) just the very very small percentage that are intended to be used as 'porn' and even some that were not intended but do get used as porn by some sicko's.

On the particular case being discussed I'm on the fence - not read enough yet.

reply to post by schism85


Personally I think that she needs to receive counseling, have a minimal charge brought against her for lewd conduct as some other posters have said.

Perhaps a flogging or caneing would be appropriate, or a large scarlett A

Im kidding

Originally posted by schism85
I completely agree. Its no buissness of the goverments to be in. The only reason why they are involved, is because the school found out, and didn't know how to handle it properly, so they called the police. Bad call on their part.

Hmmm....now I can't really blame the schoolteacher. They are worried about legal consequences too. I can imagine if a teacher saw that and did NOT report it to the authorities and then something bad happened (i.e. sexual assault, more pix being spread and it being discovered by someone else, any number of things) and it came OUT that a teacher saw the pix and did NOT report it then they could face prosecution.

Even if the teacher reported it to the foster parents the teacher could STILL be in a mess of trouble.

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy

I think some people are trying to use a strict sense of Law in a black and white sense when even the judicial system they are using embraces that a gray area exists. Determining 'motive' based on circumstantial evidence, and the subjective analysis by a jury, etc.

You seem to be misunderstanding what criminal intent is. It does not mean that "ignorance of the law" nullifies any form of intent.

Intention (or motive) simply means that the act is consciously performed, and is performed as desired. This is why people can plead temporary insanity, extreme fit of rage, or recklessness, or be charged with accidental murder - they can plead that their actions, were accidents, or products of emotion, rage, or insanity.

She consciously took the pictures, it seems. Just because she may not have known that she was creating child porn does not make her innocent and take away any intent to perform the action (taking the picture) that created the illegal material. She had intent to create the pictures, not knowing they were illegal (perhaps), yet still created the illegal material.

This is exactly why she is being - or maybe charged.

The intent to create the child porn was there, by her very action of snapping a picture of herself naked. She knew that she was a minor, she knew she was taking a picture.

It doesn't particularly matter if she knew she was creating "child porn" under law because ignorance is not a defense.

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


I think people do forget how it is to be a kid that age. You are going through so much. I remember someone saying awhile ago, that teenagers have it the worst in life. And alot of adults seem to forget how difficult the teenage years were. Iam only 22, so I still remember. People have to cut teenagers some slack nowadays.

reply to post by Sonya610


I didn't think of the teachers responsiblity to cover their own behinds. You are right. They did what they had to do.

[edit on 16-10-2008 by schism85]

reply to post by whatukno


See, now you are being reasonable. Yes, I would agree with a lesser charge alot more than the charge she is facing. I probably wouldn't even be posting if she was charged with lewd conduct instead. It is waaay less serious. Counseling and no phone, definetly. Your stance is not very different than mosts here.

Originally posted by americandingbat
I'm surprised this thread is still going.

I do understand people's concerns that this case could provide a loophole for child porn collectors. Except that it is illegal to possess child porn. So a 55-year-old with a computer full of images of naked 15-year-olds that he somehow got hold of is breaking the law. The 15-year-olds don't have to be charged with making pornography for him to be charged with possession.


P.S. to Res Ipsa – I've talked to both men and women who had sexual relationships with teachers or other authority figures when they were 15 and 16. Not enough to make this scientifically valid, certainly, but enough to raise my eyebrows. In the case of "consensual" relations (not rape through violence or threats) the men were more harmed by the experience, and carry deeper scars longer. (edited to fix screenname)

[edit on 10/16/08 by americandingbat]

........................
I'm sorry if this is going to come off as really arrogant on my part but I didn't mean to sound like I talked to a couple of close friends to reach my conclusion. I worked for 10 years with Sexual psychopathics and I have talked to dozens and dozens of people over the years both staff, friends, and patients about this topic. I can't remember one, single, male, that suffered any harm from a "consensual" sexual experience with an older, much older woman. whether it was the babysitter, the friends older sister, the drunk friend of their mother, the teacher...etc. It was either a fond memory or a badge of honor or a humerous story to share......I won't argue with you that there are anecdotal stories to the contrary but I haven't heard them first hand.....now lets make something very very very clear....we are talking about boys with older women NOT boys with men! Those are just the opposite experiences....almost always shameful even for my openly gay friends.

Lastly, do you think that if someone has naked 15 year old girl pictures on their computer they are sex offenders? Why don't we prosecute the media for portraying young girls as "barely legal"? Why don't we prosecute retarded parents that let young girls dress like hookers?
.......good question????? where would I draw the line. 9 year old girls and younger. no if ands or buts you go down, you are finished in society.
everything else needs to take into consideration of the mental and emotional maturities, and the age differences. Two 10yr olds getting caught playing doctor doesn't make either of them a sex offender, or of need of some therapy.
Yes.....for me my objectivity gets harder with each passing year of my 5 daughters...the oldest just turning 13! Being a father of that many young daughters and my experience with the sexual deviant culture is to say the least unsetteling. Would I trust the judicial system to....if....well lets just say that I would hope that I could gather my wits to use my law degree to make sure that the individual never ever saw another free day in his life.
I understand the struggle between subjectivity and objectivity. I understand why the statis of sex offender is so dangerous. We have posters on ATS that talk about overthrowing the government....no problem until we lable them "Terrorist"...then it is a new ball game isn't it?
-----
how did I get on this rant again?????? Anyway, point is, ....well forget the point....how about any men that read this thread that has "a friend" that has had an older woman experience when they were....(well lets play fair,) any age they want under 17yrs old. Lets hear if they were bad experiences or what.

reply to post by Res Ipsa


WOW! Great post, can't believe you took the time to write all that. I had a girlfriend when I was like 14 she was 19 or so. No bad experiences there. In fact, she was my girlfriend for years. She was totally normal, not a pepophile or anything. She just saw me as me, and not my age, because I didn't act my age, or think my age.

[edit on 16-10-2008 by schism85]

Originally posted by logician magician

Originally posted by Lucid Lunacy



The intent to create the child porn was there, by her very action of snapping a picture of herself naked. She knew that she was a minor, she knew she was taking a picture.

It doesn't particularly matter if she knew she was creating "child porn" under law because ignorance is not a defense.

------------------------------------------------------------

You almost got away with your argument but you said "The intent to create the child porn was there,..." No it wasn't. The intent to take a naked picture of herself and share it with someone was. NOT to "create child porn" Yes, there is a legal difference. (to tell you the truth I don't know what the elements are for proving child porn creation. I know that possession is enough to tag someone of course. But if someone chooses to do it themselves and does it themselves with out any aide? didn't cover that in family law sad to say. (side note...someone brought up malice and aforethought too....dude or dudas...that is an element of first degree murder not porn.)

reply to post by asmeone2

she is not exactly facing ten years just ten years on sex offender registry yes this is harsh being she is a minor herself the law here in indiana she would never have got in trouble the way it reads i believe

As I said, I don't have anything that could be considered scientific. I have heard from close (straight, non-sex-offending) male friends about how their experience of sexual relations with adult women (school nurse, neighbor) confused them and has colored their adult relationships.

I know several women who had sexual relationships with adult men as teens. Except for those were threatened or pressured into the relationship, none have described continuing intimacy and sexual issues related to those experiences into their thirties.

Maybe it's just another example of how complicated human sexuality is, especially teen sexuality.

But, in my opinion, adult women who take advantage of teenage boys are just as despicable as adult men who take advantage of teenage girls. As a fifteen-year-old girl, I would have been overjoyed to have sex with my English teacher, who was quite the hottie. As would a number of my friends – yes, we talked about it. He however was not a pedophile, and no doubt cared about his job too much to touch even one of the more mature students.

Do I think having pictures of naked fifteen-year-olds on your computer automatically makes you a pedophile and a criminal? No, not at all. I'm not sure that you read my reply.

I was addressing the concern that kids taking pictures of themselves could be a source of kiddie porn. The point I was making was that there was no need to prove that the pictures were created as kiddie porn to prosecute an adult who collected or sold them as kiddie porn.

In other words, I guess I was taking the stance that others have articulated in this thread: it's not kiddie porn until an adult gets their hands on it and uses it as exploitative material.

I hope that has cleared up any misconceptions.

EDIT: I wouldn't hold your breath to hear men express shame at having been with an older woman on a public forum. One of the things my friends have expressed is shame and confusion that what they were supposed to take as a badge of man hood made them feel dirty and used. And I'm not talking about 13-year old boys with 19-year-old girls; I'm talking about women in positions of authority with boys under 16.

[edit on 10/16/08 by americandingbat]

Originally posted by schism85
reply to post by Res Ipsa

 

WOW! Great post, can't believe you took the time to write all that. I had a girlfriend when I was like 14 she was 19 or so. No bad experiences there. In fact, she was my girlfriend for years. She was totally normal, not a pepophile or anything. She just saw me as me, and not my age, because I didn't act my age, or think my age.

[edit on 16-10-2008 by schism85]

Thank you for being the poster child for me and my point. There are going to be some people that are going to gasp at the age difference between you and your girlfriend. You do realize that she would have been crucified in the media for a couple of days if they ever found out. If society would have found out it would have messed with your lives like nothing you probably ever could have imagined. Everybody would have been outraged at how much of a victim you were. Wouldn't that have pissed you off hearing all of this self righteous sheet from people that don't even know you? That you must go to counseling? That everybody needs to help you because you must be some retarded child.
Do you remember that one teacher that fell in love with that 15yr old student and after she got out of jail I think they got married or something?
It just drives me nuts when society gets on their high horse and decides that they will make one the victim and the other the perp. and despite the fact that they are in love doesn't matter, because society knows better than they do and they will decide their fate. hypocrisy at its destructive best!
Does somebody want to post representing society and tell this guy that he was a victim at 14? Do you want to tell him that he is damaged and just doesn't realize it?