reply to post by bknapple32
Hey bk.
Agreed ... McCain blew it with the Wade v Roe response.
He also blew it with Ayers.
He was better tonight than his last few performances but I have to give it to Obama.
The details of what these men were saying is always secondary to how they say it.
As you said bk, Obama won on style and as each candidates policies are clear enough for most voters and have been for a while, it is now all about who
comes across as being the most Presidential. In essence, style.
Style, being Presidential, is what is important when it comes to the undecided voters at this point in the race.
That's why McCain's camp as been attacking Obama's character lately ... they know the only way to win is to paint Obama as being
un-Presidential.
And the thing is that McCain, in comparison to Obama, does not cut it. He seems awkward, negative and angry.
So taking that into consideration, anything less than a home run for McCain is a win for Obama
edit - grammar
[edit on 16/10/08 by Horza]
OFFICIAL- Final U.S. Presidential Debate, page 12
privacy
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 04:29 AM by Kailassa
reply to post by TheAgentNineteen
High Five.
Looks like we agree on some pretty complex issues here.
Peoples' rights to making their own decisions must be respected until it comes to a point where those decisions are adversely impacting other people or society in a serious way. Once the fetus is viable, it is another life, so its rights must be considered alongside the mothers'.
High Five.
Looks like we agree on some pretty complex issues here.
Peoples' rights to making their own decisions must be respected until it comes to a point where those decisions are adversely impacting other people or society in a serious way. Once the fetus is viable, it is another life, so its rights must be considered alongside the mothers'.
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 08:20 AM by Benevolent Heretic
Originally posted by southern_Guardian
Obama came back into the rest of the debate and I tell ya, the way in which he gave clear answers to the question, the way he addressed directly to the american people, the way in which he kept himself cool and calm through the entire debate gave him the edge.
I agree. I haven't read the whole thread, but your post was very much the way I judged the debate.
Obama's answers were so clear. Agree with him or not, he has his ducks in a row and I have a really good idea of his opinions and plans, and agree with most of them.
We watched on CNN which had the split screen most of the time. I'm guessing McCain wasn't aware that he was on camera because I thought he was absolutely comical! His eye rolls and marked blinking, brow-furrowing and looking around made him come off as... well... erratic and angry. I know he says he's not angry, so it occurs to me that he may actually have a physical problem.
I'm sorry, if he's not in the beginning stages of an illness, the man clearly cannot control his anger. And when he talks during anger, he sometimes slips his tongue in and out like a snake. VERY off-putting! In contrast, Obama is calm, cool and collected. When I think about who I want talking to other world leaders (especially those with whom our relations might be strained) it's Obama without a doubt.
McCain's air quotes when talking about the "health" of the woman in late term abortions could really hurt him with women. I mean, I know what he meant. Women could claim to have mental health problems and therefore need to have an abortion, but McCain didn't make that clear and I'm not sure everyone knows what he meant.
Also, McCain talked about Troops to Teachers... people who were in the military to come back and be able to teach without certification? I'm not familiar with this program, but I would think teachers should be certified.
Transcript
MCCAIN: We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which -- or have the certification that some are required in some states.
Many say it was McCain's best debate... Maybe so. But in my opinion, that's not saying a whole lot. Obama has been dependable, trustworthy and very steady in every debate.
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 08:24 AM by Open_Minded Skeptic
Originally posted by Benevolent Heretic
Also, McCain talked about Troops to Teachers... people who were in the military to come back and be able to teach without certification? I'm not familiar with this program, but I would think teachers should be certified.
Transcript
MCCAIN: We need to encourage programs such as Teach for America and Troops to Teachers where people, after having served in the military, can go right to teaching and not have to take these examinations which -- or have the certification that some are required in some states.
This one floored me. I really hope there is more to the story, I cannot believe McCain is suggesting it is a good idea to take military veterans and put them into a classroom with no training, testing or certification???
SERIOUSLY not a good idea...
That would imply, then, that you could take a teacher and drop them into a military situation with no training... also not such a good idea...
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 08:45 AM by round_eyed_dog
reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic
This mission statement below is from the Troops to Teachers site and it looks like a pretty good program by the way they describe it. I think maybe Mr. McCain just misspoke, because it looks like the whole point of the program is to help military personnel get their teaching certificates.
Link
This mission statement below is from the Troops to Teachers site and it looks like a pretty good program by the way they describe it. I think maybe Mr. McCain just misspoke, because it looks like the whole point of the program is to help military personnel get their teaching certificates.
Troops-to-Teachers provides Referral Assistance and Placement services to military personnel interested in beginning a second career in public education as a teacher. The DANTES Troops-to-Teachers office will help applicants identify teacher certification requirements, programs leading to certification and employment opportunities.
Link
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 09:05 AM by Open_Minded Skeptic
reply to post by round_eyed_dog
Thanks for the info...
I was hoping it was something like that; this does sound like a reasonable idea...
Thanks for the info...
I was hoping it was something like that; this does sound like a reasonable idea...
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 11:18 AM by TheRedneck
reply to post by round_eyed_dog
Thanks for the link to the Troops to Teachers program. This is exactly what we need (IMHO), for one simple reason: the best teachers are those who thoroughly understand the subject matter.
The best teachers I have had have been those who were something else before becoming a teacher. The role of a teacher is to disseminate knowledge, and one must have the knowledge in order to disseminate it. Would you take a karate class from someone who studied to become a karate teacher? Or would you prefer someone who had already spent a life practising the art? I would choose the latter; no doubt this is the reason you rarely see such a teacher with any color belt other than black.
I also see great benefit in allowing our older citizens to semi-retire in order to impart their considerable life-long knowledge to the young. That is the natural cycle of life: we are taught when young by the elders among us, we take that knowledge and expand it ourselves throughout our life, then we become the teachers for a new generation of youth when our bodies have withered somewhat, but our minds are still active and loaded with information. And semi-retired citizens can live much cheaper than those actively involved in the 'rat race': they typically have no children at home to care for, and are typically better prepared financially than someone starting out in life. As such, the cut in pay would be offset by the reduction in needed expenses.
That is not to say that someone should be allowed to be certified to become a teacher without some training; obviously that would be folly. But the training could be motivated through programs like Troops to Teachers, to bring real-world knowledge to our children. I'm also not saying younger career teachers are useless. Especially in the younger grades, where the idea is to build a basis upon which to build, a young career teacher would no doubt do much better. But later on, high school, college, vocational, re-educational schools would do little but benefit from more worldly influences.
And the cost to society would be much much less than some silly 'teach to test' scheme that doesn't work.
There is a more partisan move to this as well, although I think it pales in comparison to the benefits (and may even be a benefit unto itself): a large percentage fo teachers today have a left-leaning political bias, and this bias is coming out more and more. The military traditionally leans right, which would serve (IMO) to even out any political bias in the school systems.
I consider this one of the best ideas I have heard in a long long while!
TheRedneck
Thanks for the link to the Troops to Teachers program. This is exactly what we need (IMHO), for one simple reason: the best teachers are those who thoroughly understand the subject matter.
The best teachers I have had have been those who were something else before becoming a teacher. The role of a teacher is to disseminate knowledge, and one must have the knowledge in order to disseminate it. Would you take a karate class from someone who studied to become a karate teacher? Or would you prefer someone who had already spent a life practising the art? I would choose the latter; no doubt this is the reason you rarely see such a teacher with any color belt other than black.
I also see great benefit in allowing our older citizens to semi-retire in order to impart their considerable life-long knowledge to the young. That is the natural cycle of life: we are taught when young by the elders among us, we take that knowledge and expand it ourselves throughout our life, then we become the teachers for a new generation of youth when our bodies have withered somewhat, but our minds are still active and loaded with information. And semi-retired citizens can live much cheaper than those actively involved in the 'rat race': they typically have no children at home to care for, and are typically better prepared financially than someone starting out in life. As such, the cut in pay would be offset by the reduction in needed expenses.
That is not to say that someone should be allowed to be certified to become a teacher without some training; obviously that would be folly. But the training could be motivated through programs like Troops to Teachers, to bring real-world knowledge to our children. I'm also not saying younger career teachers are useless. Especially in the younger grades, where the idea is to build a basis upon which to build, a young career teacher would no doubt do much better. But later on, high school, college, vocational, re-educational schools would do little but benefit from more worldly influences.
And the cost to society would be much much less than some silly 'teach to test' scheme that doesn't work.
There is a more partisan move to this as well, although I think it pales in comparison to the benefits (and may even be a benefit unto itself): a large percentage fo teachers today have a left-leaning political bias, and this bias is coming out more and more. The military traditionally leans right, which would serve (IMO) to even out any political bias in the school systems.
I consider this one of the best ideas I have heard in a long long while!
TheRedneck
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 12:58 PM by bknapple32
reply to post by TheRedneck
That scares me. You want to give troops the job as teacher to a troop to even political bias. Sickening that you would use the education system to try and help out the republicans. Even more reason why its a bad idea. And no thanks, I dont want a professor in college teaching me, who's only experience is a war. I want someone qualified to teach the subject.
There is a more partisan move to this as well, although I think it pales in comparison to the benefits (and may even be a benefit unto itself): a large percentage for teachers today have a left-leaning political bias, and this bias is coming out more and more. The military traditionally leans right, which would serve (IMO) to even out any political bias in the school systems.
That scares me. You want to give troops the job as teacher to a troop to even political bias. Sickening that you would use the education system to try and help out the republicans. Even more reason why its a bad idea. And no thanks, I dont want a professor in college teaching me, who's only experience is a war. I want someone qualified to teach the subject.
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 01:51 PM by TheRedneck
reply to post by bknapple32
Neither will anyone convince me of that. You apparently didn't read my post thoroughly. No matter, I can rephrase what I said here:
The lifetime experiences of someone who has worked outside the educational system will be of great benefit to teaching our youth. Part of the problem is that our educational system is separated from the reality of performing a real-life job, and does not therefore perform as well as it should. This experience in reality would have even more pronounced benefits in the higher grades and in secondary education (college, vocational, etc.).
Every person who wants to become a teacher after years of experience should definitely pass all the required higher education courses and certifications that any teacher today must pass. I am simply stating that the experiences of considering a teaching career later in life would benefit the children. From the article:
Troops-to-Teachers provides Referral Assistance and Placement services to military personnel interested in beginning a second career in public education as a teacher. The DANTES Troops-to-Teachers office will help applicants identify teacher certification requirements, programs leading to certification and employment opportunities.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
(Emphasis mine)
That sounds like nothing more than a program to help those who have served in the military (which by definition includes many high-tech fields) to make a smoother transition into a career as a teacher. No certifications are being ignored, and no education requirements are being bypassed.
Ah, perhaps you did read my posts. Are you unaware that there is a left-wing bias in many of our schools already? Are you OK with this, now that you have been told of it?
I did not endorse introducing political leans into the educational system. I stated it as a potential reason for the program, and mentioned that it has already been happening on the other side. You, on the other hand, were no doubt aware of the left-leaning bias that exists, and are now crying "foul" because you don't want to lose that advantage.
I would say your obvious agenda to maintain (and extend?) the present bias in our school systems is what is sickening. I can think of no other reason anyone with your record of debating would jump so harshly at an observation.
Pardon me, your bias is showing...
TheRedneck
im sorry, but you will never convince me that a troop, with no credentials, a simple high school diploma, is now somehow just as qualified as a teach with a masters degree.
Neither will anyone convince me of that. You apparently didn't read my post thoroughly. No matter, I can rephrase what I said here:
The lifetime experiences of someone who has worked outside the educational system will be of great benefit to teaching our youth. Part of the problem is that our educational system is separated from the reality of performing a real-life job, and does not therefore perform as well as it should. This experience in reality would have even more pronounced benefits in the higher grades and in secondary education (college, vocational, etc.).
Every person who wants to become a teacher after years of experience should definitely pass all the required higher education courses and certifications that any teacher today must pass. I am simply stating that the experiences of considering a teaching career later in life would benefit the children. From the article:
Troops-to-Teachers provides Referral Assistance and Placement services to military personnel interested in beginning a second career in public education as a teacher. The DANTES Troops-to-Teachers office will help applicants identify teacher certification requirements, programs leading to certification and employment opportunities.
Please visit the link provided for the complete story.
(Emphasis mine)
That sounds like nothing more than a program to help those who have served in the military (which by definition includes many high-tech fields) to make a smoother transition into a career as a teacher. No certifications are being ignored, and no education requirements are being bypassed.
You want to give troops the job as teacher to a troop to even political bias. Sickening that you would use the education system to try and help out the republicans.
Ah, perhaps you did read my posts. Are you unaware that there is a left-wing bias in many of our schools already? Are you OK with this, now that you have been told of it?
I did not endorse introducing political leans into the educational system. I stated it as a potential reason for the program, and mentioned that it has already been happening on the other side. You, on the other hand, were no doubt aware of the left-leaning bias that exists, and are now crying "foul" because you don't want to lose that advantage.
I would say your obvious agenda to maintain (and extend?) the present bias in our school systems is what is sickening. I can think of no other reason anyone with your record of debating would jump so harshly at an observation.
Pardon me, your bias is showing...
TheRedneck
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 01:52 PM by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by DreamTrekker
Agreed on their differences. But I personally believe that the only way to attract businesses in America for Capitalist reasons is to have a middle class that can both be able to work and afford to be "good" consumers.
McCain won't act as a capitalist, he will act as a blind corporatist in my opinion. Capitalism is not merely about individual wealth, if it were Adam Smith wouldn't have titled his book "Wealth of Nations". It is also about collective wealth, which is much different than "redistribution of wealth".
As an American, I want a strong capitalist economy. And it it requires that governement use some socialist tactics to enable the capitalism, then so be it. Any system which is extreme one direction or another will fail. Only those systems which hybridize the best of both systems will be strong enough to overcome the obstacles which lay before it.
Good post!
Obama is a great speaker...hands down.
Unfortunately, he has very socialized ideas of how to run our country.
When it comes down to it, dull, old, boring, SAFE McCain will at least act like a capitalist if elected, and his ideas were clearly stated, if overly brief for a decent discussion.
The two men could not be more unlike one another, and they represent two very different America's.
Agreed on their differences. But I personally believe that the only way to attract businesses in America for Capitalist reasons is to have a middle class that can both be able to work and afford to be "good" consumers.
McCain won't act as a capitalist, he will act as a blind corporatist in my opinion. Capitalism is not merely about individual wealth, if it were Adam Smith wouldn't have titled his book "Wealth of Nations". It is also about collective wealth, which is much different than "redistribution of wealth".
As an American, I want a strong capitalist economy. And it it requires that governement use some socialist tactics to enable the capitalism, then so be it. Any system which is extreme one direction or another will fail. Only those systems which hybridize the best of both systems will be strong enough to overcome the obstacles which lay before it.
Good post!
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 01:52 PM by Kailassa
The thread seems to be ending, so perhaps a snapshot of the end of the debate would be appropriate.
Mod Edit: Removed photo.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
[edit on 16-10-2008 by GAOTU789]
Mod Edit: Removed photo.
www.abovetopsecret.com...
[edit on 16-10-2008 by GAOTU789]
reply posted on 16-10-2008 @ 02:56 PM by bknapple32
reply to post by TheRedneck
Yet mccains own words stated that these troops would not need to pass any certification tests. I think thats very wrong. And as you might think there is a left wing bias, I think college students are smart enough to avoid it. We are not so easily manipulated. go to a website called ratemyprofessor.com On it, descriptions of most any prof from any college are recorded for students to pick their classes. A lot of them say that x teacher pushes their political views left or right and to watch out. We dont want a keith olbermann teaching us as much as we don't want a Sean Hannity.
[edit on 16-10-2008 by bknapple32]
Yet mccains own words stated that these troops would not need to pass any certification tests. I think thats very wrong. And as you might think there is a left wing bias, I think college students are smart enough to avoid it. We are not so easily manipulated. go to a website called ratemyprofessor.com On it, descriptions of most any prof from any college are recorded for students to pick their classes. A lot of them say that x teacher pushes their political views left or right and to watch out. We dont want a keith olbermann teaching us as much as we don't want a Sean Hannity.
[edit on 16-10-2008 by bknapple32]
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