First Time FBI Calls Case an 'Honor Killing'

blueorder

There is indeed a problem within certain communities of racism, and it seems as though there is a bit of a tit-for-tat situation going on.

There is also a problem in the UK of self enforced ghetto's being created - it's understandable in a way, because people from the same culture have always wanted to live near each other.

A good example would be the Irish enclaves in London, Birmingham, and Manchester.

will endeavour to get some sources, but if it is mainly by Muslims those who get hysterical about this fact seem to have some sort of deep seated issue themselves, I wonder why that is.....

Probably because so many equate so called honour killings only with the muslim community, rather than the country as a whole.

For instance - if it had been a muslim man who perpetrated the recent "Murder at the Mansion" after losing all his money and becoming bancrupt, I have little doubt that some "newspapers" would have tried to portray it as an honour killing.

And there lies the problem - so many daily publications in this country seem to delight in sowing as much discord as they can - one reason why we don't hear much about christian, hindu and sikh honour killings is that it doesn't play to peoples fears, and therefore doesn't sell as many copies.

Islam the religion does not condone honour killings, but it happens to be a fact of certain cultures where Islam is one of the major religions.

There is a concerted effort by parts of the MSM (most notably Rupert Murdoch publications and TV channels) to demonize ALL muslims using the old guilt by association trick.

It can be seen in any country where murdoch owns news media outlets, whether in the form of print, TV or magazines.

Curious that he has dinner with Bush and Brown on a regular basis (as well as other political players) and that their goal seems to be to increase support for "the war on terror" in order to pass ever more restrictive laws, which take away more freedoms.

Originally posted by blueorder
But to make that jump into equating Islam's problems in the 21st centuries with those of the followers of Jesus is just relativism at its worst

Wrong. Both are examples of religous extremism resulting in murder.

Isamlic extremism resulting in the death of two young women.
Christian extremism resulting in the death of doctors.

The similarity is clear.

reply to post by Open_Minded Skeptic


Agreed.

All religions have extremists.

Extremism can be made to give ANY religion a bad name - it's simply a matter of the MSM spinning it in such a way as to isolate a particular religion to make people focus on that rather than the wider picture of religious extremism in general.

Originally posted by budski

There is indeed a problem within certain communities of racism, and it seems as though there is a bit of a tit-for-tat situation going on.

There is also a problem in the UK of self enforced ghetto's being created - it's understandable in a way, because people from the same culture have always wanted to live near each other.

A good example would be the Irish enclaves in London, Birmingham, and Manchester.

the problem is, as I see it, there was never really a "separation" of those communities in the wider sense, and they could easily assimilate into wider society- particularly the women, which is a massive problem with the Islamic "community" (sometimes I really hate that dehumanising word) in various towns/cities

Probably because so many equate so called honour killings only with the muslim community, rather than the country as a whole.

TBH you are kidding yourself if you do not think it mainly involves muslims- the problem is, as I see it, is to bury ones head in the sand leaves vulnerable mulsim women at peril

For instance - if it had been a muslim man who perpetrated the recent "Murder at the Mansion" after losing all his money and becoming bancrupt, I have little doubt that some "newspapers" would have tried to portray it as an honour killing.

The difference is quite quanitifiable in that such instances of evil are not from a "cultural" (and certainly not religiously influenced culture)- the culture of honour and oppression of women found in many *but not exclusively* Islamic "communities" is wholly different

And there lies the problem - so many daily publications in this country seem to delight in sowing as much discord as they can - one reason why we don't hear much about christian, hindu and sikh honour killings is that it doesn't play to peoples fears, and therefore doesn't sell as many copies.

I dont pay heed to the Sun, Mail whatever, for instance the Sun is a New Labour rag, however had the cheek to run that story about the afghani immigrant in a million pound mansion with £12k rent paid by the council- of course this situation is despicable, however it happens under the watch of New Labour, their political masters

Islam the religion does not condone honour killings, but it happens to be a fact of certain cultures where Islam is one of the major religions.

there really is no point me and you as non muslims debating what Islam does or does not say- there are many differing opinions and views from within Islam as to what is "true", and Im sure many of the more extreme Muslims are better schooled in the religion than you or I- all I know is that a rather disturbing number of it's followers quote it for various actions

There is a concerted effort by parts of the MSM (most notably Rupert Murdoch publications and TV channels) to demonize ALL muslims using the old guilt by association trick.

I have no love for RM, he is up to his nuts in New Labour- the very party that permits our detestable immigration levels and promoted multi culturalism for so long- so although my disgust of him is coming from a different angle to you, ie deception, I agree about him

It can be seen in any country where murdoch owns news media outlets, whether in the form of print, TV or magazines.

In a wider sense I dont agree, journalism is largely dominated by those of a liberal / left viewpoint, and even when a TV station tackles the subject head on, like Dispatches, the politically correct police get involved!

Curious that he has dinner with Bush and Brown on a regular basis (as well as other political players) and that their goal seems to be to increase support for "the war on terror" in order to pass ever more restrictive laws, which take away more freedoms.

indeed, a lot of scaremongering is to increase control

[edit on 15-10-2008 by blueorder]

Originally posted by Open_Minded Skeptic

Wrong. Both are examples of religous extremism resulting in murder.

Isamlic extremism resulting in the death of two young women.
Christian extremism resulting in the death of doctors.

The similarity is clear.

It isn't wrong, in terms of making them similar, on any sane scale there is no comparison- individuals can do wrong in the name of anything, but that does not mean the scale is comparable or remotely similar

reply to post by blueorder

the problem is, as I see it, there was never really a "separation" of those communities in the wider sense, and they could easily assimilate into wider society- particularly the women, which is a massive problem with the Islamic "community" (sometimes I really hate that dehumanising word) in various towns/cities

Again - this is not just a problem with muslim communities.
Irish, Polish, Indian (hindu,sikh) all live in area's populated by those of their own nationality.
Even ex-pat brits do it - so we should hardly be complaining about a lack of integration when we don't do it ourselves.
I also don't hear this argument about the Jewish community - and they have had their own courts for civil matters for many years.

TBH you are kidding yourself if you do not think it mainly involves muslims- the problem is, as I see it, is to bury ones head in the sand leaves vulnerable mulsim women at peril

That's a cop out - any community where forced aranged marriages and honour killings are part of the culture have vulnerable women, NOT just the muslim community.
You seem to miss the point here and address this again as a muslim only problem - it's cultural, it's not religious.

The difference is quite quanitifiable in that such instances of evil are not from a "cultural" (and certainly not religiously influenced culture)- the culture of honour and oppression of women found in many *but not exclusively* Islamic "communities" is wholly different

Really?
Look up some of the christian honour killings - or indeed some of the honour killings by any religion, and you'll find that money has been a motivating factor in more of them than you might think - it seems that "honour" is not confined to sex before marriage or marrying someone of a lower caste, but is linked to every aspect of life.

I dont pay heed to the Sun, Mail whatever, for instance the Sun is a New Labour rag, however had the cheek to run that story about the afghani immigrant in a million pound mansion with £12k rent paid by the council- of course this situation is despicable, however it happens under the watch of New Labour, their political masters

These papers change their tune depending on which way the wind blows, as does their owner.
It's about sales, not poltics - haven't you seen the stories which have run since Blair left office?

there really is no point me and you as non muslims debating what Islam does or does not say- there are many differing opinions and views from within Islam as to what is "true", and Im sure many of the more extreme Muslims are better schooled in the religion than you or I- all I know is that a rather disturbing number of it's followers quote it for various actions

But there is a point - I have actually read the Koran.
It doesn't say anything about honour killings, stoning women to death or hacking off the hands of thieves - or any of the other misconceptions that people seem to delight in.
Nor does the word of someone who chooses to interpret the koran for his own ends count.
It's a pretty straightforward book - the fact that it has been subverted by (for example) the Saudi's doesn't change what the book says.

It's the same with so called christians who say that Jesus condemned homosexuality - he didn't and nowhere in the new testament does it say that he did - but people will try and twist words to suit their own agenda.

I have no love for RM, he is up to his nuts in New Labour- the very party that permits our detestable immigration levels and promoted multi culturalism for so long- so although my disgust of him is coming from a different angle to you, ie deception, I agree about him

RM will go whichever way the wind blows, as I have already said.

Multi-culturalism started way before new labour.

Immigration is actaully a good thing - although uncontrolled immigration is not.

Am I starting to detect a hint of bitterness towards migrants in your arguments?

In a wider sense I dont agree, journalism is largely dominated by those of a liberal / left viewpoint, and even when a TV station tackles the subject head on, like Dispatches, the politically correct police get involved!

DING!
Wrong again - journalism has the whole politcal spectrum, and the despatches programme you are referring to was challenged for political reasons, by the West Midlands constabulary, because they had been caught out not doing their job.
The other reason it was challenged was also political - the Saudi's are our supposed allies, and they got their knickers in a twist at being exposed in the manner they were.
Channel 4 quite rightly stuck by their guns as their opponents didn't have a leg to stand on.

Originally posted by budski
Again - this is not just a problem with muslim communities.
Irish, Polish, Indian (hindu,sikh) all live in area's populated by those of their own nationality.

I do not see that as comparable with the Islamic example *certainly not the Polish and Irish examples*

Even ex-pat brits do it - so we should hardly be complaining about a lack of integration when we don't do it ourselves.

I don't buy that argument, if a Brit moves to another country and tries to live in a culture/manner alien to that country, then I fully support the host nation being a bit p issed off about it

I also don't hear this argument about the Jewish community - and they have had their own courts for civil matters for many years.

A lot of people, myself included, think it should apply to Jews as well- although to be fair to the Jews we don't hear much from them, kudos, they tend to get on with things without aggressive domination or victim mentality

That's a cop out - any community where forced aranged marriages and honour killings are part of the culture have vulnerable women, NOT just the muslim community.
You seem to miss the point here and address this again as a muslim only problem - it's cultural, it's not religious.

it isnt a cop out, I oppose it WHEREVER it is, but to deny its a greater problem within Islamic communities is really coppin out

Look up some of the christian honour killings - or indeed some of the honour killings by any religion, and you'll find that money has been a motivating factor in more of them than you might think - it seems that "honour" is not confined to sex before marriage or marrying someone of a lower caste, but is linked to every aspect of life.

again, wherever it happens it is wrong, still doesnt make the relativist case stand

These papers change their tune depending on which way the wind blows, as does their owner.
It's about sales, not poltics - haven't you seen the stories which have run since Blair left office?

yes, New Labour/New TOry, call me dave is flavour of the month, and Brown gets pilloried, shows you the lack of substantial difference amongst the two major parties

But there is a point - I have actually read the Koran.

so have people who would be classed as "extremist", and I daresay emersed themslves in it more than you- and it isnt a simple matter of "Ive read the Koran", Islamic experience is wider than that with different rulings, interpreations etc

It doesn't say anything about honour killings, stoning women to death or hacking off the hands of thieves - or any of the other misconceptions that people seem to delight in.

I dont think people delight in it, apart from those who DO IT in the name of Islam, and whether you like it have studied and lived an Islamic way of life much more intensely than you

Nor does the word of someone who chooses to interpret the koran for his own ends count.
It's a pretty straightforward book -

it is far from straightforward, filled with contradictions and bizzarreness *sic*

the fact that it has been subverted by (for example) the Saudi's doesn't change what the book says.

it is your judgement to say "subverted", but they are living as Muslims, presumably you are not

Multi-culturalism started way before new labour.

I agree with this, that poor headmaster in bradford was pilloried by the local islamic community in the 1980s for questioning multiculturalism, and the wider political and chattering classes did not defend him. New Labour took it to new levels though before abandoning it *at least in public blustering* after the London bombings

Immigration is actaully a good thing - although uncontrolled immigration is not.

The current UK situation of stagnation and recent uncontrolled immigration would say that very very limited immigration should be employed for the forseeable future

Am I starting to detect a hint of bitterness towards migrants in your arguments?

Bitterness towards our ruling masters, I dont blame an individual migrant *at least not the law abiding ones* as it is a human instinct to try and better ones life, which immigrants voluntarily choose to do when the come to the UK- we should have had a decent border policy many moons ago though

Wrong again - journalism has the whole politcal spectrum, and the despatches programme you are referring to was challenged for political reasons, by the West Midlands constabulary, because they had been caught out not doing their job.

Sorry Im not wrong, journalism is largely filled with leftists and liberals- because some are not does not mean it is not dominated by the aforementioned- our learning establishments are dominated by leftists and/or liberals from whence many journalists come. Now some can withstand the ideology which goes on at universities, but it undoutedly influences many. There have been many studies of journalistic leanings which show them at odds with the general population and more heavily left leaning or liberal

And it is not the business of the police to ascertain if Despatches is doing its job, the police need to restrain their Orwellian excesses- I take great pleasure in that most politically "correct"/"corrupt of organisations, the Met, gettting feasted on by greedy people playing the race card

The other reason it was challenged was also political - the Saudi's are our supposed allies, and they got their knickers in a twist at being exposed in the manner they were.

The Saudis should be an irrelevance to a local constabulary




[edit on 15-10-2008 by blueorder]

this two are french expressions, i'm not sure they translate well, but the meaning should be quite clear

"before sweeping in front of your neighbour house, sweep in front of yours"

"before looking the straw in the other eyes, look at the beam in yours"

a brief history of christian history

The Crusades
The Inquisition
witches
reformation
Exploitation By The Missionaries
holocaust
nothern ireland
Africalocaust through aids
it is obviously not exhaustive

now just go to check the records at your next police station about rape and murders on women and the religion of victim&aggressor, then you find the percentage of each religion in the population then you compare the numbers yourself; and at least during that time no more of this stigmatizing propaganda.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by ::.mika.::]

Originally posted by ::.mika.::
this two are french expressions, i'm not sure they translate well, but the meaning should be quite clear

"before sweeping in front of your neighbour house, sweep in front of yours"

"before looking the straw in the other eyes, look at the beam in yours"

a brief history of christian history

The Crusades
The Inquisition
witches
reformation
Exploitation By The Missionaries

for the above, what do you want us to do, jump in a tadis and timewarp Europe several hundred years to accomodate Islam- not for me old top

holocaust

hard to have reasonable debate when someone does this sort of link

nothern ireland

I live here, and can assure you that nobody was going into battle reading the bible and trying to further Christianity- tribal hatred over the border issue

Africalocaust through aids

idiotic

it is obviously not exhaustive

or even relevant

now just go to check the records at your next police station about rape and murders on women and the religion of victim&aggressor, then you find the percentage of each religion in the population then you compare the numbers yourself; and at least during that time no more of this brainless propaganda.

jump in your timewarp and leave the rest of us in the 21st century

Sad stuff, but I imagine this is only a small portion of what we actually here about that occurs everyday in all walks of life.

Honor killings are MURDER.

No HONOR in murder.

Not knowing the full insides of the religious or non-religious 'honor killings' but I would have to say it stems from control issues more so then anything else.

It may hide within the boundaries of Honor, but I think it is control that fuels it.

reply to post by TKainZero


Horrible?
Yes.
Strictly Muslim?
No.

Muslims are not unique in the practice of *Honor Killing*.

I live in an area of the world where *honor killing* is still practiced - right along with arranged marriages and women being, well, second class citizens, subjugated to their Fathers/Brothers will.
The religion?
Catholic to the core.

So, what is your post proving?

Nothing other than you found an article about a Muslim Honor killing, again, as horrible as it is, is not in any way unique to the people or the belief systems therein.


...taps...

that is ridiculous. its very sad that people would kill someone else because they dont follow the beliefs and lifestyle that person would want.... ohhh waittt.





[edit on 10/15/2008 by lushyslushy]

reply to post by blueorder

I do not see that as comparable with the Islamic example *certainly not the Polish and Irish examples*

You wouldn't, they're white.
But the fact is that both polish and irish have their own pubs, clubs, shops and social scene, the same as any other migrant population.

I don't buy that argument, if a Brit moves to another country and tries to live in a culture/manner alien to that country, then I fully support the host nation being a bit p issed off about it

I don't care if you buy it or not - it's a fact.
Go to the algarve or any part of spain/portugal and see for yourself - many don't bother to learn the local language.

A lot of people, myself included, think it should apply to Jews as well- although to be fair to the Jews we don't hear much from them, kudos, they tend to get on with things without aggressive domination or victim mentality

I know very few muslims with a victim mentality - I think you've been reading the Daily Star too much.

it isnt a cop out, I oppose it WHEREVER it is, but to deny its a greater problem within Islamic communities is really coppin out

Again - you believe what's reported in the press, and what suits your twisted views.

again, wherever it happens it is wrong, still doesnt make the relativist case stand

But it does make the case stand - just because you are blinded by whatever drives you and want to put the focus purely on muslims doesn't make what you say true - except in your own mind.

yes, New Labour/New TOry, call me dave is flavour of the month, and Brown gets pilloried, shows you the lack of substantial difference amongst the two major parties

This shows a profound lack of understanding of UK politics - labour has moved to the right, the tory position has changed very little.

so have people who would be classed as "extremist", and I daresay emersed themslves in it more than you- and it isnt a simple matter of "Ive read the Koran", Islamic experience is wider than that with different rulings, interpreations etc

Actually, it IS that simple - but again, people have subverted the book to suit their own ends, just as happens with christianity.

I dont think people delight in it, apart from those who DO IT in the name of Islam, and whether you like it have studied and lived an Islamic way of life much more intensely than you

You have no idea how or where I have lived - this is a baseless assumption intended to provoke.
And people DO take delight in it - it can be seen in this thread, in the papers every day, and in the pub every evening.
Ignorant fools trying to pretend they know something they don't based on a article full of liues and then fitted into their closetted existence where they never step outside their own social circle.

it is far from straightforward, filled with contradictions and bizzarreness *sic*

so point them out for us - and I'll refute them.
Contradictions and "bizarreness" can be found in abundance in the bible - find me some in the koran.

it is your judgement to say "subverted", but they are living as Muslims, presumably you are not

The saudi's have deliberately taken passages from the koran and changed them to suit their extremist agenda, which is the wahhabi version of islam.

I agree with this, that poor headmaster in bradford was pilloried by the local islamic community in the 1980s for questioning multiculturalism, and the wider political and chattering classes did not defend him. New Labour took it to new levels though before abandoning it *at least in public blustering* after the London bombings

Except they haven't abandoned it at all - they have merely shifted the focus.
Again this shows a profound misunderstanding and lack of knowledge of UK politics.

The current UK situation of stagnation and recent uncontrolled immigration would say that very very limited immigration should be employed for the forseeable future

This stagnation you speak of is a very recent event - and again you are showing a profound lack of understanding.
The reason labour allowed uncontrolled immigration was that migrants are the only ones who will do the jobs at the lower end of the scale.

I dont blame an individual migrant *at least not the law abiding ones*

Except that your arguments give the lie to this statement.

Sorry Im not wrong, journalism is largely filled with leftists and liberals- because some are not does not mean it is not dominated by the aforementioned- our learning establishments are dominated by leftists and/or liberals from whence many journalists come. Now some can withstand the ideology which goes on at universities, but it undoutedly influences many. There have been many studies of journalistic leanings which show them at odds with the general population and more heavily left leaning or liberal

And it is not the business of the police to ascertain if Despatches is doing its job, the police need to restrain their Orwellian excesses- I take great pleasure in that most politically "correct"/"corrupt of organisations, the Met, gettting feasted on by greedy people playing the race card

I take it you know a lot of journalists then?
And have attended and vetted the universities you speak of?
It's actually called being educated, and looking at all the reasons for a problem, rather than just making a right wing knee jerk reaction.

And regarding the dispatches programme, if the home office gets a complaint from the saudi embassy, they let the West Mids police know about it, and they have to be seen to be doing something about it.
It's called politics

The Saudis should be an irrelevance to a local constabulary

They are - but they are not irrelevant to the home office, or to the diplomats, and as a consequence, are relevant to the Chief Constable.
Again - it's called politics.

reply to post by TKainZero


Let's not constrict this to Islam. Just see what happens when some Fundie Christians don't like who their daughter is dating. Or orthodox Judaism. There are isolated cases of murder, but much more widespread is abuse.

I live in Central Ohio US and in a town a bit south of us we had a farmer who killed his daughter because of who she was dating and race or color had nothing to do with it at all.

The sad thing is to see someone try to use a tragedy like this to further a sick, racist, hate-filled worldview. Deny ignorance! Cause that's exactly what this anti-Muslim movement amounts to.

Well I know that this has turned into an anti Muslim argument but I would like to say that some of the other posters have mentioned a lot of other cultures that do this ,and I think it just points out how prevalent the attitude world wide is that women aren't quite as human as men and are certainly not considered ,in most parts of the world as full members of their societies. Right here in the US we have whole townships of Polygamists that act no better than the father in this story. Something to think about

Originally posted by TKainZero

Who lives in texas, 90%+ european heritage... IE white...

Ok I am just wondering where you got this number from?

I lived in TX for around 7 years. That number is 100% false. I don't know what the number really is but it's not 90%. Just from living there you will see that "european heritage ... IE whites..." are the minority.

Besides that the rest of your post (OP) looks good. Thought if your wrong with one fact, do you have all your other facts in line? Just food for thought.

Originally posted by Syndular

Originally posted by TKainZero

Who lives in texas, 90%+ european heritage... IE white...

Ok I am just wondering where you got this number from?

I lived in TX for around 7 years. That number is 100% false. I don't know what the number really is but it's not 90%. Just from living there you will see that "european heritage ... IE whites..." are the minority.

Well...
For some reason, Mexicans, are 'counted' as white.
Because they are also of European heritage...

not the best recording methods...

But, Mexicans are ALSO of European heritage...
For the most part.

And, so, in the world view, Mexicans are white.


Now, on a regional, and local level this can be argued.
But, as a whole, they are grouped as a people that have their heritage linked to Europe.
Mexico, USA, Cannada, Brazil, and the rest of the American Countries have thier Heriatge in Western Europe.


I know, its frustrating...

I live in california, which ALSO is over 90% 'white', but over 50% of population of California is mexican, and im sure its the same in Texas.

In the COntext of the world, Mexicans and American are close realitives... brothers if you may.

And while the KKK and La Raza will disagree with me... oh well

[edit on 10/15/2008 by TKainZero]

Originally posted by budski
And there lies the problem - so many daily publications in this country seem to delight in sowing as much discord as they can - one reason why we don't hear much about christian, hindu and sikh honour killings is that it doesn't play to peoples fears, and therefore doesn't sell as many copies.

Well you can't just lump every woman murdered by a husband or family member as an "honor" killing. Honor killings relate specifically to a family being shamed by the sexual conduct of a female member, and to regain the families "honor", they kill her.

Hindu's that set their brides on fire because the dowry did not get paid are NOT honor killings. Husbands in Brazil that kill their wives because they suspect they may be cheating are NOT honor killings, they aren't doing it to preserve the families honor, they are doing it because they are in a jealous rage.

Honor killings are thought to be a misinterpretation of this verse from the Quran:

If any of your women are guilty of lewdness, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them to houses until death do claim them, or Allah ordain for them some way. Qur'an 4:15

"The evidence of four witnesses" specifically means four witnesses to the act of sexual penetration, which in and of itself is a highly unlikely occurance. The women are supposed to be confined to their homes (presumably rather than being cast out into the street or the desert) for the rest of their lives OR until Allah provides another path for them (i.e. marriage).

It is a huge misinterpretation that makes some believe keeping a woman at home until death equates to "kill her". The Quran certainly has many passages on killing in various ways, and the wording is always EXTREMELY clear. There are no euphanisms. If that passage was intended to imply some sort of unnatural death it would have explicitely stated the method/s.

I think one of the problems is that Sharia law allows for a murder victims family to forgive the murderer.

[edit on 16-10-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by Sonya610Husbands in Brazil that kill their wives because they suspect they may be cheating are NOT honor killings, they aren't doing it to preserve the families honor, they are doing it because they are in a jealous rage.

Some may do it in a jealous rage, but most (like the case I know, and other cases in Portugal) do it because it is a question of honour.

Although I do not know personally any case of a father killing a daughter, that has happened in Portugal, and always because the honour of the family was in "danger".