Bodies strapped to seats on AA77, Pentagon?

Originally posted by tezzajw

1-Thanks, Seymour - you still haven't shown me why there were bodies at one crash site and not at the other!

2-Notice that in my original post, I asked if there should be bodies at one/both crash sites.

1-Why should I bother? You wouldn't understand and/or don't want to hear a rational answer.

2-Lie.

What I find interesting is that vehicles on the Bonneville Salt Flats tiring to break land speed records. Then have an accident at high speeds some of them survive(most of them die)but you still find bodies and wreckage?The bodies and wreckage don't just disappear.
(I'm talking about the cars that are going 500+MPH and the wreckage rolls hundreds of yards)

Sorry If this does not fit in here,but its just a thought that popped in my head.

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
1-Why should I bother? You wouldn't understand and/or don't want to hear a rational answer.

Seymour, you've entered the thread making baseless statements, without any supporting proof.

You've been asked to prove your statements many times and you have refused.

Now, you're lamenting about why you should bother to supply the proof? Why?

Exactly why did you enter this thread, if you were not prepared to contribute to it? I began the thread by asking believers to explain to me how two alleged high speed crashes can leave victims in very different states of composition.

How is it possible, Seymour? Proof, please?

Please supply evidence in the form of a coroners report that states which bodies were found strapped to the seats.

So now you are demanding the CORONER REPORT? I have laid out
how the leader of the recovery team - whose job it was to do search
and recovery describes how the bodies were found in the debris pile
near the C Ring hole. A scene which was witnessed by dozens of firemen,
NTSB and FBI and its not good enough! You now want the gruesome
pictures splashed all over the internet!

I gave you the references now look it it!

Oh wait - its not in the form of video which means someone might
have to leave mommies and read something for a change

Originally posted by thedman
I have laid out how the leader of the recovery team - whose job it was to do search and recovery describes how the bodies were found in the debris pile near the C Ring hole.

Right, ok. So there must be some form of paperwork that supports this. May I see it, please? Which alleged victims were found? They all had names, so may I please see a report that states who's body was found strapped to an airline seat?

Was the leader of the recovery team an expert at identifying, analysing and handling human remains? Was he able to determine which passengers were found strapped to their seats by name?

A scene which was witnessed by dozens of firemen, NTSB and FBI and its not good enough!

Were any of those firemen trained, in a similar way to the squad leader? How many of those firemen could identify the alleged bodies by name? Where are the written reports that confirm what those firemen saw?

Did the NTSB and FBI only 'witness' the bodies, or did they perform full autopsies and make written records of their observations, analysis and results? Where are those written records that prove there were bodies found strapped to seats?

You now want the gruesome pictures splashed all over the internet!

I never stated that. If pictures are included with the written reports, then so be it.

I gave you the references now look it it!

Please provide me with the reports that confirm which passenger bodies were found strapped to their seats and the exact location. A coroners report will also be able to confirm the likely cause of death, which would also be handy to have.

Oh wait - its not in the form of video which means someone might
have to leave mommies and read something for a change

In case you don't realise it, insults slide off my back, like water from a duck. You're picking the wrong target to try and work me over with the name-calling. I really don't care what you type, when you start breaking the T&C of this website.

Now, assuming that there were alleged bodies from the alleged Flight AA77 found strapped into their seats, can you please explain to me why there were no bodies of the alleged Flight UA93 found strapped to their seats at Shanksville? Both alleged crashes were over 850 km/h. Why do some corpses survive intact at one crash site, while those at the other site are FOOBARed big time???

reply to post by cashlink


I think a lot of the disinformation posters in these threads are really posting to the casual reader rather than to the other persons posting in the thread.

It's a kind of posturing. Acting out conviction and certitude so that a casual reader will think, 'Yes, there are two sides to this argument. It really comes down to a judgement call,' and then pass on without bothering to make a judgement.

It's a tactic, aimed at someone, but I don't think it is really aimed at anyone in the thread.

Originally posted by tezzajw

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
1-Why should I bother? You wouldn't understand and/or don't want to hear a rational answer.

Seymour, you've entered the thread making baseless statements, without any supporting proof.

You've been asked to prove your statements many times and you have refused.

Now, you're lamenting about why you should bother to supply the proof? Why?

Exactly why did you enter this thread, if you were not prepared to contribute to it? I began the thread by asking believers to explain to me how two alleged high speed crashes can leave victims in very different states of composition.

How is it possible, Seymour? Proof, please?

My only statement is that you haven't convinced me yet that your question needs to be answered.

You haven't done any work yet to show that it is suspicious that bodies were found at one crash scene and at the other, only fragments.

So you want proof that it's NOT suspicious, right? This your challenge to the "believers", right? Let's say that no one wants to play with you on this subject. Let's say that no one responds. Let's say that no one answers.

Now, in troofer world, since no one will come out to play, that means that you MUST have uncovered something. In the troofer world, this means that you are close to "exposing the "man". This is a "smoking gun" only in the bizarro world of ATS.

But in the rational world, this is not so. In the rational world you need to show WHY your question even needs to be addressed in the first place. IOW, as I've been saying...... do an analysis of why you believe that the bodies should have been in the same condition. I gave you an avenue to start with. I have no idea whether or not this is the correct path to look into, nor am I interested in finding out if it's the correct path.

And why is that, you might ask? Because, as is often pointed out to troofers, the burden of proof that something is suspicious is on YOU.

Fortunately, only in the bizarro world of ATS, a question from incredulity qualifies as significant substantiation. The rest of the world does not operate in this manner. You should get out some and discover this little fact.

This is what this whole thread boils down to - you are posing a question from incredulity.

W-E-A-K......

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
You haven't done any work yet to show that it is suspicious that bodies were found at one crash scene and at the other, only fragments.

Seymour, I'll make it easy for you, Swampfox and thedman...

Please supply me signed reports that confirm the names of the passengers who's bodies were found strapped to airline seats.

So far, you've yet to PROVE that any passengers were found this way. Without PROOF, the witness statements are hearsay.

, the burden of proof that something is suspicious is on YOU.

You're making a claim that these witnesses saw something. Please prove it. If you can't, then your witnesses statements are nothing but hearsay.

Once we have proven that passenger bodies were found strapped to seats, we'll then progress to the next class, where we'll discuss why two alleged high speed impacts differ so greatly with the victims' remains.

Thanks for playing, Seymour. You might still be in the game, if you can manage to dig up some proof for me.

[edit on 16-10-2008 by tezzajw]

I'm not sure how there can be bodies strapped to seats in a plane that hit the Pentagon when no plane hit the Pentagon.

There was NO FREAKIN' PLANE!

Peace

reply to post by Dr Love


Don't say that if you aren't going to back it up with proof of the caliber that this thread is looking for. I like this thread and the engaging style of the original poster. Do not respond to this, wasting space, unless you have proof, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that there was no plane. Do not say "common sense"; do not say "look at the pictures"; do not say "one high up witness said it looked like a global hawk." While that kind of research may work for some people, this tread expects rigor and quality to statements. Doing this kind of research is, in my opinion, fun. However, I have nothing to add other than keeping this thread consistent, so I have remained relatively quiet. You should too.

You people are incredible I site the testimony of the rescue/recovery teams who found the bodies and then had the task of removing them

But its never enough - keep moving the goal posts, invent some more
bizzare reasons to doubt what is laid before you. What next - going to
ask what color the seats were? Then have someone claim they didnt come
from AA77?

Here are more quotes from firemen on the scene

Mark Willams: "When Williams discovered the scorched bodies of several airline passengers, they were still strapped into their seats. The stench of charred flesh overwhelmed him. 'It was the worst thing you can imagine,' said Williams, whose squad from Fort Belvoir, Va., entered the building, less than four hours after the terrorist attack. 'I wanted to cry from the minute I walked in. But I have soldiers under me and I had to put my feelings aside.'

www.usatoday.com...

"I did see airplane seats and a corpse still strapped to one of the seats."
–Capt. Jim Ingledue, Virginia Beach Fire Dept

www.rense.com...

Some of you truther sick puppies complain about wanting to see pictures
of bodies from the Pentagon

Enjoy

Originally posted by tezzajw

1-Without PROOF, the witness statements are hearsay.

2-You're making a claim that these witnesses saw something. Please prove it.

1- Wrong. Try again.

2- Lie. I have made no claims, other than to say that you have not convinced me that your questions need to be addressed.

IMHO, you have already moved the goalposts.

First you wanted to see parts with serial numbers. When supplied with one, you moved the goalposts and now want to see a ridiculous list of needs filled before you will accept it. If you get this, you will of course then claim that it was faked.

Then, the photos of the bodies are produced, and you want another level of info. Funny, it was good enough for the courts, but not for you. Good thing that the courts weed out the irrational, otherwise you might find yourself in a jury box someday.

Now why would I bother to chase you down that road. Why would anyone, after you've already displayed a level of irrationality that deserves a paper written on it by an undergraduate, bother to engage you? I wonder if you even get this...... Prolly not.

If you can display a rational level of acceptance of evidence, then maybe someone will bother with you.

Of course, there IS another road to take, one that you will studiously avoid. This road, of course, is for YOU to make your case with an anlysis and evidence. You will not. Instead, you will rely on the W-E-A-K question from incredulity as the basis for your thread. Only on ATS would this get applause.

Originally posted by thedman
Some of you truther sick puppies complain about wanting to see pictures
of bodies from the Pentagon

Enjoy

What is interesting about the corpses in the pictures is that they looked badly burned yet their prison type orange jump suites are unburnt. Mabey they were inmates?


Mod edit: Fixed quote

[edit on 10/17/2008 by Hal9000]

Originally posted by Seymour Butz
First you wanted to see parts with serial numbers. When supplied with one, you moved the goalposts and now want to see a ridiculous list of needs filled before you will accept it.

So you can't tell me who took the picture? So you can't tell me where it was taken? So you can't prove the authenticity of the picture at all? That picture is not evidence. It can not be verified!

Keep trying, though... you've probably convinced some people who have a low tolerance level for alleged evidence.

Then, the photos of the bodies are produced, and you want another level of info.

Which of those photos showed a corpse that was strapped into an airline seat?

You haven't taken the easy option that I gave you. Let me know, by name, which passengers were found with their corpses still attached to seats. That will help prove your point. Seriously, you don't have to do much to prove it, so why is it causing you so much grief?

You've yet to show me proof, Seymour and thedman. I'm still waiting for it.

A claim was made that some corpses were strapped to the airline seats - yet none of you can supply verifiable proof, which identifies the corpses by name. Keep trying... you might get there.

What is interesting about the corpses in the pictures is that they looked badly burned yet their prison type orange jump suites are unburnt. Mabey they were inmates?

Right ! If look close can see orange-red dust in area around bodies.
Now the Pentagon walls were brick (behind the stone facade) - I
imagine it is pulverized brick dust.

Check out this picture of wall - exit hole at C Ring, see the rear wall is
brick. Earlier post made refernce to fact that when constructed mason
only used mortar every few courses to save time/money.

www.pentagonresearch.com...

reply to post by IvanZana


Sorry, the photos are comical......Having worked on aircraft accident investigation teams, I can tell you that any bodies inside an aircraft that impacts a reinforced and hardened concrete wall at even 300 knots (being conservative) will be torn apart prior to fire consuming them. No, it is not pretty, but it is what happens......The human body cannot handle the incredible g force resulting from a high speed impact without being torn apart.....

Originally posted by tezzajw
A claim was made that some corpses were strapped to the airline seats - yet none of you can supply verifiable proof, which identifies the corpses by name. Keep trying... you might get there.

Nobody is interested in playing a game whereby you sit and deny as much evidence as is possible. All that is required is a reasonable standard, and when there is no contradictory evidence, multiple eyewitness accounts should be enough to verify these claims.

Now of course you require more information on pictures taken, and claim they're not evidence when of course they are accepted as evidence. You can of course file a FOIA request if you truly wish to know the photographer's names. However, as we can supply you with the names of firefighters who witnessed passengers' bodies and this is not sufficient evidence, why would the name of a photographer matter to you?

Like I say, the evidence has been laid out plainly, if you wish to contest that it is not sufficient enough evidence, then challenge someone to a moderated debate where a third party can decide.

Originally posted by exponent
Nobody is interested in playing a game whereby you sit and deny as much evidence as is possible.

I'm not denying evidence, exponent, I'm asking for it.

All that is required is a reasonable standard, and when there is no contradictory evidence, multiple eyewitness accounts should be enough to verify these claims.

Well, no...

If these multiple eyewitnesses saw corpses strapped to seats, then those corpses would have been moved somewhere and examined. I'm after the paper-trail that proves this.

Which corpses were found strapped to the seats, exponent? Can you tell me their names?

Now of course you require more information on pictures taken, and claim they're not evidence when of course they are accepted as evidence.

Be very careful which pictures you are typing about, exponent.

The pictures of the corpses in the Pentagon I accept as being official. Of course they were used in the trial. However, I'm asking which of those corpses were strapped into airline seats, as I don't see it!

The picture of the alleged AA77 wreckage piece I will not even consider as evidence. It is completely unverifiable. No name, no location, no date, no time, etc...

Like I say, the evidence has been laid out plainly, if you wish to contest that it is not sufficient enough evidence, then challenge someone to a moderated debate where a third party can decide.

I'm still waiting to see the evidence. Nothing has been laid out and clear.

Claims were made by firemen that there were corpses strapped to airline seats. Again, which corpses? Where has this been OFFICIALLY verified by a coroner or other authority?

[edit on 16-10-2008 by tezzajw]

Sorry, the photos are comical......Having worked on aircraft accident investigation teams, I can tell you that any bodies inside an aircraft that impacts a reinforced and hardened concrete wall at even 300 knots (being conservative) will be torn apart prior to fire consuming them. No, it is not pretty, but it is what happens......The human body cannot handle the incredible g force resulting from a high speed impact without being torn apart.....

As a firefighter been involved in body recovery from aircraft crash and
from fire scene - answer is all depends, every situation is different

At Pentagon passengers/crew (flight attendents) were all herded to back
of plane. As plane slammed into building front was shredded by impact
shedding pieces and losing momentum until debris hit the C Ring wall.
By this time have lost most of forward momentum - some of the larger
pieces (landing gear strut) still had enough to punch through wall.
Most of the debris piled up on interior side of wall.

Plane was literally turned inside out.

In book FIREFIGHT a fireman ( Mike Regan) asks NTSB member same
question.

Originally posted by thedman
At Pentagon passengers/crew (flight attendents) were all herded to back
of plane.

Where is the proof of this claim?

When they were 'herded' to the back of the plane, were they all forced to strap themselves into their seats by the big bad men wielding box cutters?

Can you please supply me with a seating chart that shows where each person was sitting after they were 'herded' to the back of the plane and who was restrained in their seat?

Thanks for that, thedman. We might get somewhere with this afterall, once you have proven your claim.