I question my religion and faith. Please help =) Proof please not just words..

You ask for proof.
Yet there is no proof but that which you find for yourself.

It double Posted Read Below

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by ShiftTrio]

Well you sound like your in the same boat as me , except I know now.

There is a Higher Being. The Bible is a book of Man, a way for him to explain what goes on in this weird ass world.

Now a Few things that lead me to believe in God .
The absolute perfectness of the Chaos in the Universe.
It is so complex yet mathematically perfect. The Fact at some point Something had to come from nothing or there was always something. Which is even more odd.
There is a higher powers who's invention this is.

In this invention he/she/it whatever. Has given us certain rules that seem to be installed from birth.
I think bad and good at the lowest sense is built in ,and if not taught to do anything I think people would choose not to Kill, To love, Why does it feel so good to Love and help others, and why do people how do bad, feel empty inside, or most people at least. This is more proof of a higher Plan.


Those there are actually proof you can see in science.

Now I believe in ghosts , because of my own experiences.
If you have had one or believe in one, this is one more proof of an Afterlife and of a higher existence.

Now alot of people have taken the things that have happened with priests and political BS and corruption that goes on in organized religion, has pointed people to not look further.

Here is the List
There is a God
Man Created the bible etc..
Man has greed, and tons of other flaws.

So because the bible may be false, does not mean there is no GOD, it just mean that we messed it all up.

Follow your inner soul, the things that you know are good. I think there have been some smart people who have written some great stories or have lived by these rules. that have been put in the bible to put us back on track to what the real message is. Love and Goodness.

I think that's why Jesus came, now. I believe in Jesus, I kinda think as Jesus as a Anit Virsus program. he was sent to put us back on track. to our inner feelings and souls. The goodness. But that is my opinion.

The first 2 facts though should at least make you realize there is at least a Higher Power.

My 2 Cents



[Edited on 26-3-2004 by ShiftTrio]

...you can choose to listen to soothsayers and atheists, or you can choose to listen to HIM. you must decide for yourself. he will never force anyone to follow him. he has not made the world a perfect place or else you would not have the choice to love him freely for what he has done for you.. he loves you and is patient and will wait for you to come back to him...

He will never force anyone to follow him? "Follow me or rot in hell" seems pretty forceful. But back on topic. I just want to wish you good luck on your journey. We definitely need less religion in this world. We need more people taking responsibility for their actions and thinking logically about the world's problems.

hmmm. I said there would be folk quoting scripture at ya. Like you haven't had enough of that already. Besides, you know where to look if you want more.

Welcome to being responsible for your own enlightenment. I think the fact that you can formulate the thought to ask questions like this is some of the proof you are looking for.

Originally posted by mepatriot
or "all religions are of equal value."...The Bible says "No man cometh unto the Father but by me (Jesus."

You can try other paths, but they only lead to destruction. "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, but narrow is the way that leadeth to everlasting life..."

Don't forget the Bible also states "I am known by many names, all paths lead onto me"

And "With the faith of a mustard seed"...

but, then agin, it also says that Satan can quote scripture, too

I will point out that I am not denying god or christ I am only denying that any religeon provides any proof at all that god exisits other than by the writings of men weather you belive those writings to be god inspired or not, it is still just the writings of men that we blindly follow and have faith in.

Againt, consider your words. You ask and pray adn wait for a sign...but there is none. Why? Because God doesn't exist. If God existed, he'd be doing more of the smiting and less of the nothing. There would be no wars over religion or scripture or creed. Instead, blind belief leads man to slay man.

Instead of sitting placidly on your chair at home and asking people to prove a dead God for you, why not seek it out yourself? Make your own decisions. make your own beliefs. Take what you value, and hang onto that.

People have a distinct lack of initiative and willingness to seek their own answers, instead looking to a book or preacher to hand them out to the masses. It is true- religion is the opiate of the masses.



How about this...instead of looking outwards for your answers, look inwards.

DE

You should not let anyone tell you what religion is true, or what is truth. Truth is not absolute and noone whatever they tell you has absolute truth. Do your own research, look at the origins of religion/s and make your own mind. Don't let others make up your mind.

Too many people have blind faith because they were brought up under certain religion and just take the word of others to decide for themselves what religion is right for them.

All the problems in the world are because of people, there have always been problems in the world, and there will always be, there might be times of peace but peace is the calm before the storm. Look at the bible when Elohim supposedly mingled with the affairs of humans more. There were wars for Elohim, entire races were destroyed, men, women and children.

Does the spiritual world exists? i can tell you from my own experience that yes, it does, but it is more complex than some people think. I do not know everything, nor do I profess to know the truth, find your own truth, look inside of you and ask for guidance from within.

Realize that everything in nature is a balance. We wouldn't know what light is if there was no darkness, we wouldn't know what good deeds are if there are no evil deeds. There is a balance in everything, if one thing ceases to exist its opposite is compromised.

Look at man and woman, what would happen in the world if one of them ceases to exist?

As is above, so is below. In the microcosm everything is composed of neutrons, electrons and protons. in the macrocosm you can find the same thing. There is good, there is evil and there is a neutrality, a middle ground, but all three are dependant of each other.

It is time for people to take responsibility for their actions and to make their own minds. Search for your self and when you are ready, you will find your anwsers.

Originally posted by SimpleTruth

I can help, no problem. Has the bible been edited? Yes. But keep in mind, remember that we have extremely old scrolls and copies of the bible from not too long after Jesus' life. So there is always a reference for us to check the versions up against, despite that there have been many. If the bible suddenly was edited very inaccurately in a new version, people would know.

You might be right but, I'm not sure about that! The originals no longer exist as far as I know. I'd be curious for you to point me somewhere where I could read about about those old scrolls...What are they?? As far as I know, we don't even have proof that Jesus existed...

The 'lost' books, like the Book of Enoch, or the Gospel of Thomas. Then there is Jubilees, Book of Adam, yadda yadda yadda... try lloking under the Essenes, too... the writers of the Dead Sea Scrolls

Essenes

Gnosis

Originally posted by mepatriot
The Bible is the only inspired written word of the only True God. Not one iota of it has ever been disproven despite all the best efforts of centuries worth of atheists, and Satanists, and soothsayers, and false prophets' best efforts.

Well, let's imagine that I decide to teach people that there is someone called Frodo Baggins, a hobbit, which unmade the one ring in the mount Doom many thousand years ago. I also have a book to prove it, it has been written in part by it's uncle, Bilbo Baggin and by Frodo Baggin. Can you prove that any word in that book isn't the truth? Of course we will never be able to disprove any book written in old times. They might be novels of the time as far as I know and we follow those like if they are the word of God. The bible was written by man. There are discrepancies between the story told by the apostles. If it was the words of God, I don't think we could find any mistakes in it. And if some people decided to tamper with it, I'm sure they would have make sure that they don't create those discrepancy.

The "proof" you seek will have to come through your own searching. Examine the reasons why you need a religion, and then study those that best fit what you're looking for. Don't let anyone browbeat you, either -- this is your quest, so enjoy it and be unafraid!

Originally posted by Xeven
Well I was hoping for a wisper in my ear or a beam of light to come after asking this on here, yet it still has not happend heh. I really do not expect any religious people to comment because they will not, sadly be able to do anything other than tell me what other men have told us all in books and in words. There is no proof.

I really wish there was some proof, because it would be nice to know I had a big buddy out there looking after me but as life happens around me in what would be a gods creation I find his presence extreemly lacking (other than mens words).

I do still believe that a creator is possible, but I also belive it could have all started with two particles comming together or some such. If there is a god out there come let us know.

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by Xeven]

Xeven,

I was just like you. My father was a pentecostal, converted from Catholic. If I locked my door on Sunday mornings he would break it down to make me go to church. He would threaten me that I would go to hell or be left behind because the world was going to end.

I attended all those bible studies 3 times a week. I actually read the bible all the time, alone at home from about the age of 7! I used to ask alot of questions and unfortunately they would tell me that

god is a mystery
those are not our privilege to know
or BECAUSE GOD SAYS SO.

So on my quest for truth I was baptised, Catholic, Pentecostal, Presbyterian, Baptist then Finally Mormon. For someone who is serching for truth mormonism answered more questions than any of them and kept their minds open to possibilities that fundamentalist shunned.

Well my quest did not end there aside from the fact I hate getting up at the crack of my ass to worship someones god.

About 10 years ago I happened to buy a book in the store calle
"The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read" by Tim C. Leedom.

It changed my life and put me on the road to knowledge. It made me really think and go back and read that "good book" Now I read anything I can get my hands on including books about other religions. I went into various phase of belief.

From Christian
to Athiest
to Extreme athiest
to Agnostic

Now I still study all I can and keep an open mind that we may have had "a creator" that gave us a set of rules to obey but he is long gone in these days. He may have died or just gave up to let us do our own thing. I also keep in mind that maybe we were not created and evolved. We will never know.

The only thing we can do is be good people and leave the world a better place than when we arrived. I truely believe that if a god exists and he must judge me he will see my true intentions and the capacity of my heart. He will know my struggle for truth and he will remember when I was down on my knees asking him to show me the WAY, but he never answered.......... He will remember.

You must always question everything, don't just believe because you were raised to. Don't be affraid to ask questions and form your own opinions. Your opinions will differ and change with any knowledge you gain.

I don't struggle anymore. I am 1000 times a happier person than when I was a christian. I don't fear judgement, hell, death. I don't worry about commiting sin etc......... I am a human!

Get that book!

Originally posted by Leveller
You don't have to wrap in your hand and throw away your belief in Christianity.
You can read the Bible, look at history, study and redefine it for yourself. I honestly believe you can still be a Christian and refute a lot of Church doctrine. Who is to say that you aren't following Christianity as it was meant to be originally followed if you redefine it?
You have to remember that Christianity actually comes in many forms. It didn't start out in the way that you see the mainstream practicing it now and it is constantly being redefined - even amongst the controlling authorities. There were literally hundreds of different Christian sects who all thought they knew the true message of Christ, all of which were eventually exterminated by our present day Church. You don't have to believe that something is right just because it won a physical battle.

Yes, Christianity is rooted in paganism. But that doesn't make it any less pertinent. The teachings of Christ are as relevant as if he was just a man when compared to the belief that he was a god.

Trying to look for the Christ within yourself is an ideal starting point in trying to find out what Christianity is really about. Yes, we've been lied to and manipulated by the Church, but that doesn't make the original motive of this religion any less pure. It hurts to be lied to, but you can get over it. And when you reach a definition that suits you, you will honestly find that you don't have to turn your back on Christ after all.

If Jesus really existed, I think what he tried to do is to show us a way of life, he showed us the path for fulfilling our life in the right way. But people misunderstood him (not all people) and decided to venerate him instead of listening to what he had to say, which was to love each other... Look, I've seen so many priests who have been bad to people, saying things that weren't nice and all... They certainly didn't understand the message...

Originally posted by Xeven
I was brought up christian and I believed/believe now. Yet now at 35 years old I cannot deny that the bible is hardly unmanipulated by man. I cannot deny that it seriously contradicts itself. FInally I cannot deny that all religions appear to be started and driven by men trying to control humainity.

So what religion if any has a god that will do something today to convince me that their book or belifes are real so that I may follow on something more than mans words.

Simply writing a big hello in space using stars or planets or heck even a gas cloud would do yet none of them do so much as give me a glowing light to show me they are real and they love me and want me to follow them.

All I have is a old massively edited book one written by men to follow. I also have men whom could simply be brainwashed by their parents and world up on the pulpit telling me it is true.

So please someone show me some proof that thier god is real and loves me and wants me to live forever.

Thanks and I am serious about this.

Xeven

now find your path and walk it

Originally posted by Xeven
I was brought up christian and I believed/believe now. Yet now at 35 years old I cannot deny that the bible is hardly unmanipulated by man. I cannot deny that it seriously contradicts itself. FInally I cannot deny that all religions appear to be started and driven by men trying to control humainity.

I am glad you were able to realise this. There is a much bigger world out there outside of the Bible.

So what religion if any has a god that will do something today to convince me that their book or belifes are real so that I may follow on something more than mans words.

This was one of my main problems also. Why is it so horrible to ask for a little proof from the man himself? He created me, he would know what would make me be able to believe. The fact that he doesn't show you his presence in a way you would understand and aknowledge is more proof that there just is no god, atleast not one that cares.

All I have is a old massively edited book one written by men to follow. I also have men whom could simply be brainwashed by their parents and world up on the pulpit telling me it is true.

So please someone show me some proof that thier god is real and loves me and wants me to live forever.

Thanks and I am serious about this.

Xeven

Believing in a god is not a bad thing really, but humans being what they are make it a bad thing with the compulsive desire to control others.

We all have that problem. Control over something makes you feel good, if you deny it, you are a liar. It is a human trait/flaw, when coupled with a concept such as a god and a bible that people interpet in their own way is a recipe for murder and opression.

Don't take my word for it. Look through history. More people have been killed in the name of religion than anything else. And look what it has done and is currently doing to people. Humans are a confused creature as it is, but entering a god into the picture just makes things worse...

For me, proof is in many, many things - like music, for example. Animals don't care about music and some will run away. We listen to it and love the different rhythm and moods and feelings we get from music. Other animals could care less about anything beautiful, we find beauty in the most odd of places.

Logical proof? If we came from a one cell organism billions of years ago, why do we have two eyes? Cells don't have eyes. Now granted, through the course of evolutuion, our forming self/matter may have begun to pick up on light waves and could have formed an organ that is more sensitive to light, but then we needed depth perception? A second eye?

How about our DNA? It is just a massive program to build you. DNA does not come from an explosion - or 'big bang'.

The creation story in Genisis is symbolic - each day of the week represents a phase of creation. It isn't literal - what was 6 days before there was an earth day.

As far as religion, just believe in your creator and believe the message of Christ. If you don't 'feel' it at other churches, the problem is in you. It is usually a case of sin - sin needs conquered, not avoided.

Thats what I have come to find in my life.

Originally posted by Xeven
I am not against knowing the truth or god but what you describe is self brainwashing and not actually proving anything. I do not mean to sound harsh to you, but I can convince myself of anything if I think about it constantly and read about it constantly. I do not want to convince myself that their is a God or Jesus I want him to show me beyound in reasonable doubt in plain light, by means of what he has given me, eyes, ears, nose etc.. that he does indeed exist and that I am not a fool following other mens words, ideals etc.. through brainwashing, and sure wish for something more than what is evident on this planet in reality.

The bible does have good things in it that provide guidance for peacefull existance with other men yet I still do not see any evidence other than at one time in my life "I knew he was real" I have to admit that was because I blindly belived what I read and heard from the mouths and writin words of men.

I am sincere in that I wish it was all true, but as I grow older and wiser I find it harder to just accept the writings of men and words and beliefs of others so I need god to show me if in fact he is real and loves me and cares for me, I want him to just flat out let us see undeniable proof that god is more than just the writings of men.

And just because the world is beutiful mysterious and the universe has some (human percieved) inteligent order to it does not prove that a GOD created it.

Again I am asking someone or god himself to show us undeniable proof of his existance so we may follow the right and truthful god religion.

I will point out that I am not denying god or christ I am only denying that any religeon provides any proof at all that god exisits other than by the writings of men weather you belive those writings to be god inspired or not, it is still just the writings of men that we blindly follow and have faith in.

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by Xeven]

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by Xeven]

This is quite honorable Xeven. I know how you feel because, in a way, I've been there (still am) although, I didn't follow the same path as you. I've never been very religious but since I was like 6-7 yo, I started to ask myself questions about the universe. When I was younger, I used to believe in almost everything I could hear, UFO, ghost, Life after Death, etc. Now that I'm an adult, I'm more skeptic but, that doesn't mean those things don't interest me anymore, on the contrary (lately, I've been thinking that I might have been mistaken all my life and maybe, all those things don't exist, they are just mistakes and illusions made by people). But, I'm always hoping that I might be wrong and that these will be shown to be real. I think the important thing is to not lose hope and to continue to search for the truth. I once heard, "The friend of the truth is the one who is searching for it, not the one who says he has it". I believe this. I think that as long as you search, you can't be wrong...because you want to know. If I'd just stop now and decide that something is the truth and therefore, I don't need to look anymore, I'd be stupid to think that the rest of my life has no other meaning than to follow that blindlessly.

Life is fabulous, there has to be more to it than our mere material existence, but we have to search for it...

Originally posted by riouxda
If Jesus really existed, I think what he tried to do is to show us a way of life, he showed us the path for fulfilling our life in the right way. But people misunderstood him (not all people) and decided to venerate him instead of listening to what he had to say, which was to love each other... Look, I've seen so many priests who have been bad to people, saying things that weren't nice and all... They certainly didn't understand the message...

I totally agree with you. But that still doesn't mean you have to turn away from him. I personally don't see Jesus as a physical story but rather being one of spirituality. It doesn't even matter to me that he may or may not have actually existed. There is plenty of evidence to me that his story was deep rooted in what we now call Paganism. But as I said, that doesn't make the story any less pertinent. There is a meaning within that story and it is up to the reader to interpret it.

Some here will already know, that I am no lover of the Church. In fact, I absolutely loathe it for it's lies, deceit, manipulation, murder and the breaking of just about every other moral law known to man. I know that this hatred is justified but I also know that it is not an emotion I should entertain although there is no way that I can ever respect that organisation.

But I don't see the story of Jesus as being one that belongs to a Church. It belongs to all of us and it is up to us to take it and do what we see fit with it. Freeing myself from the Church doesn't make me any less of a Christian. Maybe it does in their eyes, but certainly not in my own. And in God's eyes? Who knows?

For me, it is entirely logical and perfect that God exists. I am bound by no other rule than my own morality and the rules of law in the land where I live. The freewill that he gave me, opened up the door to trying to find out more about myself and my God. It can now only be closed by me.

I believe that it is up to each individual to search for the truth for themselves. This doesn't mean turning your back on every religion and believing that everything within them is a lie. The stories in the Bible were written by much cleverer men than I, and it is not a book that I can ever totally discard as there is much truth in there written behind the politics and the impurity.

Originally posted by godservant
For me, proof is in many, many things - like music, for example. Animals don't care about music and some will run away. We listen to it and love the different rhythm and moods and feelings we get from music. Other animals could care less about anything beautiful, we find beauty in the most odd of places.

Logical proof? If we came from a one cell organism billions of years ago, why do we have two eyes? Cells don't have eyes. Now granted, through the course of evolutuion, our forming self/matter may have begun to pick up on light waves and could have formed an organ that is more sensitive to light, but then we needed depth perception? A second eye?

How about our DNA? It is just a massive program to build you. DNA does not come from an explosion - or 'big bang'.

The creation story in Genisis is symbolic - each day of the week represents a phase of creation. It isn't literal - what was 6 days before there was an earth day.

As far as religion, just believe in your creator and believe the message of Christ. If you don't 'feel' it at other churches, the problem is in you. It is usually a case of sin - sin needs conquered, not avoided.

Thats what I have come to find in my life.

Hmmm...ok...so we have two eyes because we are in the image of God so, God must have two eyes? He has a human form?? Nobody has ever seen him as far as I know. Have you ever had any biology class? I don't think you understand how evolution work very well. I could show you some cells who are light sensitive! Mutation in the DNA create new traits in the organism. If these traits are good for the organism, then, this organism will have more chance to reproduce, therefore transferring those mutations to the next generation. At some point, some organism developped two light sensitive organs which helped in perceiving the 3d world like you said...and that helped that organisms to survive more than the others and reproduce more...That's how evolution works and we have proof of it. Why do we have 5 fingers? If you go look at old fish(fossils and even actual fish), you would notive that they have five bones in their fins. Those fins later help the fish to get out of water...slowly becoming legs and hands... And no, DNA doesn't come from an explosion...it comes from the atoms and molecules which go together with time with chemical reactions... I agree, it is all very complex...but the fact that you don't understand it doesn't mean necessarily that a God had to create it. If there is a God, I think he created the soul. The material life appeared by itself (maybe coming from another planet, who knows) and might have been invested by the spirits created by God... But hey, I have no proof of it for now so, I still have to search for the truth...