I question my religion and faith. Please help =) Proof please not just words..

I was brought up christian and I believed/believe now. Yet now at 35 years old I cannot deny that the bible is hardly unmanipulated by man. I cannot deny that it seriously contradicts itself. FInally I cannot deny that all religions appear to be started and driven by men trying to control humainity.

So what religion if any has a god that will do something today to convince me that their book or belifes are real so that I may follow on something more than mans words.

Simply writing a big hello in space using stars or planets or heck even a gas cloud would do yet none of them do so much as give me a glowing light to show me they are real and they love me and want me to follow them.

All I have is a old massively edited book one written by men to follow. I also have men whom could simply be brainwashed by their parents and world up on the pulpit telling me it is true.

So please someone show me some proof that thier god is real and loves me and wants me to live forever.

Thanks and I am serious about this.

Xeven

Welcome to your first step on the road to beign free, mein freund.

Truth be told, there is no such book. I'm glad I beat all the rabid Christians to the punch. Why don't you hear me out. I'm just a simple athiest...

The first problem with monotheistic belief is the quandries it brings up. They all say that God is a benevolnet, omniscient and all-powerful being. However, such a being would not need to create a world to lord over. Also, let me ask you this:

God is omnipotent, right? Therefore, he has to ability to stop and prevent evil, right? Why doesn't he do so? There are two solutions: Either god isn't all powerful, or God isn't benevolent.

You want to live forever? You can't, sorry. Cope. You want to be loved by a higher being? Sorry, they either don't exist or don't care.

God is dead. It's high time mankind started using that useless lump between their ears and made their own decisions.

DE

For 'proof', you could try doing a ritual from the Satanic Bible, but that probably wouldn't fit your style...

With me, it took many many years and involvment with many different religions/sects to find what was right for me. And you know what? None of them worked.

Oh, sure, a few had elements which drew me in, or which I felt were right, but there wasn't one specific type which fit what I thought to be the 'right one'.

So, I started to delve deeper into the religions histories, to see where they were coming from. It seems that the older versions of the religions held more personal truth than the newer ones.

Basicly, as of right now, I am making my own. It still has many elements of the newer relgions, with the teachings of the older. It still deals with the same issues and archtypes... but it is such a conglomoration right now, it is hard to identify what piece goes to which religion.

It may sound a bit like Kabalism... and, truth be told, that was what I used to be, but there is more to it than that.

What I would suggest is to discover what is right for you. What I may believe or do may not necessarily be what you want to do, and vice versa. Religion is such a personal thing... the path of self-righteousness and discovery brings a greater fulfillment than accepting the teachings of mainstream or widely accepted views.

God is alive and He has created the universe and everything around you. If this were not so, how else could you explain the complexity of an amoebe, let alone the incredible detail in the eyelid of a newborn infant?? Have you ever looked closely at one...I mean really looked??

All of the systems that go into supporting human life can only be explained by the existence of an all-powerful Creator. Otherwise, you have to believe that all of these inert materials got together in some cosmic cesspool billions of years ago, and then POOF! there was life. Which theory takes more faith?..Faith in God, or faith an incredibly impossible conjecture such as that?

Do not be misled by those who use religion as a cloak for their own evil. Many of the greatest religious leaders of this world (including several high-profile tel-evangelists) are likely "wolves in sheeps' clothing"--working for a new world order and a (Satanic) world church.

Have you seen The Passion? It is a wonderful portrayal of how much the Lord loved each and everyone of us. He doesn't care if we follow some organized religion, or even if we attend church. But HE loved YOU enugh to die for you in the most hideous and cruel way imaginable.

Wrap yourself around that concept of Christ's love. Talk to him quietly in your own way IN COMPLETE SINCERITY--and HE will guide you what to do...

I'm here if you want anymore feedback.

Do not forsake the truth to follow after false prophets. From your comments, I think you know what the real truth is, but you are being influenced by these phonies on TV and all around you. Concentrate on your personal relationship with Jesus Christ and shut out all of the idle chatter and you'll end up on the right team in the immense cosmic battle that is unfolding.

God bless you!

I'm an athiest myself.

If logic has religion failing you I sugest find love in humanity and just accept that you may or may not live forever, and worrying about it won't change the fact.

Words can't help much in this case, you just have to live life and figure out what you need.

Best of luck.

You have already taken the an important first step in your journey. But I don't think anyone is going to just hand you proof the way you would like. You are probably going to get a lot of scripture quoted to you on this.

I would say, look not to what you have been told, but instead know what you feel in your own heart and spirit. No one on this planet has any greater knowledge of God than you do.

Good Luck in your search.

ok see why dont you just follow yourself? plain an simple, you have a guidelight its called your instincts you know that gut feeling even a mere second thought about something to make you ponder more about it would be better then taking someone elses word about it, Leave it up to yourself to formulate a plan an then guess what if that doesnt work you can just try again untill you find something that does, dont get mad find a solution, but why take someone elses point of view when yours is equaly the same? have a great day an have a happy an good fortuned life.

Well I was hoping for a wisper in my ear or a beam of light to come after asking this on here, yet it still has not happend heh. I really do not expect any religious people to comment because they will not, sadly be able to do anything other than tell me what other men have told us all in books and in words. There is no proof.

I really wish there was some proof, because it would be nice to know I had a big buddy out there looking after me but as life happens around me in what would be a gods creation I find his presence extreemly lacking (other than mens words).

I do still believe that a creator is possible, but I also belive it could have all started with two particles comming together or some such. If there is a god out there come let us know.

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by Xeven]

Originally posted by mepatriot
God is alive and He has created the universe and everything around you. If this were not so, how else could you explain the complexity of an amoebe, let alone the incredible detail in the eyelid of a newborn infant?? Have you ever looked closely at one...I mean really looked??

All of the systems that go into supporting human life can only be explained by the existence of an all-powerful Creator. Otherwise, you have to believe that all of these inert materials got together in some cosmic cesspool billions of years ago, and then POOF! there was life. Which theory takes more faith?..Faith in God, or faith an incredibly impossible conjecture such as that?

I'm sorry but, your biology knowledge is not very impressive. Life wasn't created in a second like you seem to assume. It appeared slowly in millions of years. Some atoms started to get together and slowly formed more and more complex molecules... And at one point, these molecules, the way they were formed, started to interact with others by chemical reactions... Have you ever studied how our DNA is replicated?? It is incredible, a real industry just inside our body. A molecule goes to stick somewhere on another, creating a reaction which bend the molecule slightly. When that reaction is off, the molecule unbend, making it advance slowly on another that it is attach, just like a machine. It is incredible...but it is explainable by chemical reactions and physics. Does that mean it was created because it is so complex? No, it appeared slowly, with time. I'm not saying that we don't have a soul and that life after death doesn't exist because, although I'm a scientist, I am also a spiritual guy who is searching for the truth and I'm hoping that there is something in our universe that we don't yet understand but that would be the proof there is something else. Yes, maybe there is an entity out there which is the sum of all our spirits, but I don't think he has created life the way you think it. We know that matter is energy so, he might be a being of energy and he created matter, as atoms and molecules...and then, this matter started to assemble themself to create life. I'm not following any religion because, most of them now just want to control people. But I want to follow the truth, and for that, I must follow science but keep an open mind because, we don't understand everything yet and there might be things that we don't see or don't even suspect. Life might not be what it seems to be, who knows! I just hope so, hoping that when I die, my conscience will continue to exist. But then, maybe I'll just fall asleep and never be conscious again...That is sad but, it might also be the truth...

I am a spiritual person, but not religious. With the things I do and believe in, it is hard for me NOT to be spiritual.

Anyway, just wanted to mention this:

I was using the ouija board by myself, oh, 13 years ago... I remember it spelling out 'believe in god'. That struck me as odd... especially since the board is supposed to be these great tool of evil.

Just thought I'd share. Later!

...you can choose to listen to soothsayers and atheists, or you can choose to listen to HIM. you must decide for yourself. he will never force anyone to follow him. he has not made the world a perfect place or else you would not have the choice to love him freely for what he has done for you.. he loves you and is patient and will wait for you to come back to him...

Originally posted by mepatriot
...you can choose to listen to soothsayers and atheists, . you must decide for yourself.

Re-read my first post. I clearly stated to discover and find things out for yourself, that you have to find what is right for you.

Sheesh.

Originally posted by soothsayer

With me, it took many many years and involvment with many different religions/sects to find what was right for me. And you know what? None of them worked.

What I would suggest is to discover what is right for you. What I may believe or do may not necessarily be what you want to do, and vice versa. Religion is such a personal thing... the path of self-righteousness and discovery brings a greater fulfillment than accepting the teachings of mainstream or widely accepted views.

I don't know what you read, or if you were trying to read between the lines, but I said what I said. And bickering about this is not helping anybody.

Xeven,

The most important thing is that you find a belief that works for you.

I was also raised Christian, but as time went by, I started to realize there were just too many open questions, without any real solutions. I could not find myself following blindly like some sheep. So i began to research into the history of my forefathers(croatian/german).

What I found was extraordinary. The ancient pagan beliefs were, to me, more reasonable and thought provoking, than bowing to some god, who doesn't care, or is ambivalent, to you in the first place. Our forefathers worshipped many gods(polytheistic), and nature. The gods had human traits; could be good, mean, sad, happy, unforgiving, or merciful. It's not like Christianity, where you bow to some god.

If you are sincere in your quest to find the truth this will work. This day you ask God to reveal Himself to and give you a sign that cannot be denied and he will. This will only work if you truly mean business, God knows your heart and if you truly want to know him he will reveal himself to you, but this is not a game in any sense so I would suggest that you come correct. For me personally I walk in the things of God, I pray for the sick and they are healed, cast out devils, have seen the blind eyes opened and the lame walk. I know of people that have been healed of aids, cancer and other life threatening desease's. There is no doubt in my mind whatsoever that God is real. For those that don't believe this is what God has to say to them 2 Thess 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
13 � But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
The Anti-Christ is about to be revealed as a conformation of what is written and all those that refuse to believe will be damned whether they believe it or not. Don't gamble with your soul. I would rather be wrong and live like a christian and find that there is no Hell, than to be right and live like a sinner and find that there is a Hell and have no escape.

Originally posted by Xeven
Well I was hoping for a wisper in my ear or a beam of light to come after asking this on here yet it still has not happend heh. I really do not expect any religious people to comment because they will not sadly be able to do anything other than tell me what other men have told us all in books and in words. There is no proof.

I really wish there was some cause it would be nice to know I had a big buddy out there looking after me but as life happens around me in what would be a gods creation I find his presence extreemly lacking (other than mens words).

I do still believe that a creator is possible, but I also belive it could have all started with two particles comming together or some such. If there is a god out there come let us know.

I can help, no problem. Has the bible been edited? Yes. But keep in mind, remember that we have extremely old scrolls and copies of the bible from not too long after Jesus' life. So there is always a reference for us to check the versions up against, despite that there have been many. If the bible suddenly was edited very inaccurately in a new version, people would know. It's true that, in the process of the bible being translated from Hebrew/Greek to English, some message is lost. In other words, English cannot quite express in the ways of the other languages in a particular verse. Our language simply is different and lacks certain aspects that the other languages have. But the verses in question are close, and does nothing to harm or mislead the reader.

There is no doubt the bible has been tampered with. Look at the Mormons, or Jehova's Witnesses who have the "bible" but their books are very different. The bible is one of God's very strong tools, and so threatens satan and what he wants. So he tries to tamper with it. But again, the bible has remained very steady. If you ever have doubts, investigate it for yourself and compare the current version to the oldest scrolls and documents. You'll be pleased.

Do you find contradictions or inconsistencies in the bible? I would argue that there are none. I recently did a whole thread where I answered or explained "contradictions" for anyone who brought one up. Check that thread out in BelowTopSecret under the faith section. Or just ask one here and I'll help you out.

You don't see God in this world/universe? Look at the massive scope of it all, and then the intricate details. Look at the galaxies, and look the oceans, skies, and nature in general. Think He isn't involved in our lives at all? Yes, this world can suck with it's problems, but He is here. He did not create the world as it is, but as perfect. What you see as our present earth is our own design and satan's taint. But that's part of the point of Revelation, where He will remake and restore earth. Where do you think love comes from? Our life and conscienceness come from? We are not just physical bodies here for a blink and then gone forever. God works in our lives. There are miracles. I've experienced one myself. Don't let the media rule over your view on the world. They don't necessarily lie, but they only report the bad, violent, evil and wrong. There's another side.

Because God created everything, everything in creation should point to Him. Nature implies a creator, discoveries in physics reveals intelligent design, WE point to Him as we are made in His image, our lives given by Him, and He has given us the bible to read. And it's not JUST another book written by man. It's written in a way that no other books even come close to. There are intricacies and layers that the Quran and other books don't contain. I can and will give many examples, but I'm running out of time. I'll be back soon.

That feeling you have, and desire and want to know the reality of God is real. Where do you think that drive and desire comes from? Are you being delusional? No. It's because of His presence. I truly hope that you dig in and don't give up.

The Bible is the only inspired written word of the only True God. Not one iota of it has ever been disproven despite all the best efforts of centuries worth of atheists, and Satanists, and soothsayers, and false prophets' best efforts.

You will never find "proo"f that every word is true, but you will never find one word of it that has ever been disproven. If it was so easy to "prove" your way along, where would there be any need for faith?

Th Bible says "Faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." Are you listening??

The Bible also displays the ignorance of those who would say, "Oh, you are your own God," or "all religions are of equal value."...and don't be fooled, atheism and belief in the evolutionary nonsense are just as much a faith-based religious system as is Christianity. The Bible says "No man cometh unto the Father but by me (Jesus." That means you can't get to heaven except by accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior, and developing a personal relationship with him.

You can try other paths, but they only lead to destruction. "Broad is the way that leadeth to destruction, but narrow is the way that leadeth to everlasting life..."

"THE MAJORITY IS ALMOST ALWAYS WRONG." -Einstein, (who by the way proved mathematically the existence of a Creator.)

In all sincerity, there is a God.

The way I have come to know is by following what Jesus said as recorded in John 7:17:

"If any man will do his [the Father's] will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

If you live as Christ teaches, then you will know. Outside proof doesn't work. In fact, simply teaching or listening to teaching is not sufficient, as the Lord tells us in Isaiah 29:13:

"Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

I do not deny that throught history men have done terrible things in the name of religion. Religion can be used to get people to follow and accept things they wouldn't normally. However, that doesn't mean that religion is the problem, but rather it gets used by devious men.

To me, organized religion is necessary for effective operations of religious things like buildings, missionary work, publications, and instruction, but the determination of worthiness is between the individual and the Lord. I think there are always men willing to preach to people that they know the way to salvation and they can decree whether a person is worthy. They use the desires of man to be saved from doom and create a falsified path to salvation. People become duped, and then religion gets a bad name.

I think that a true seeker investigating Christianity will be willing to take the time to learn the teachings of Christ, and be willing to try the experiment He offers. Do what he teaches, and then you will know if He is the Son of God, or if He is just blowing smoke. Of course, if he never existed, the experiment is pointless from the get-go. But if he did exist, then you can know both that he was real and that his teachings are true.

No coercion is involved in following His teachings, and you don't have to satisfy any man to find out if His teachings are true.

Once one knows He is real, then other questions can be asked in the context that He is real. But it all revolves around the existence of God.

Hope this helps.

You don't have to wrap in your hand and throw away your belief in Christianity.
You can read the Bible, look at history, study and redefine it for yourself. I honestly believe you can still be a Christian and refute a lot of Church doctrine. Who is to say that you aren't following Christianity as it was meant to be originally followed if you redefine it?
You have to remember that Christianity actually comes in many forms. It didn't start out in the way that you see the mainstream practicing it now and it is constantly being redefined - even amongst the controlling authorities. There were literally hundreds of different Christian sects who all thought they knew the true message of Christ, all of which were eventually exterminated by our present day Church. You don't have to believe that something is right just because it won a physical battle.

Yes, Christianity is rooted in paganism. But that doesn't make it any less pertinent. The teachings of Christ are as relevant as if he was just a man when compared to the belief that he was a god.

Trying to look for the Christ within yourself is an ideal starting point in trying to find out what Christianity is really about. Yes, we've been lied to and manipulated by the Church, but that doesn't make the original motive of this religion any less pure. It hurts to be lied to, but you can get over it. And when you reach a definition that suits you, you will honestly find that you don't have to turn your back on Christ after all.

Originally posted by piboy
In all sincerity, there is a God.

The way I have come to know is by following what Jesus said as recorded in John 7:17:

"If any man will do his [the Father's] will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself."

If you live as Christ teaches, then you will know. Outside proof doesn't work. In fact, simply teaching or listening to teaching is not sufficient, as the Lord tells us in Isaiah 29:13:

"Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men."

I do not deny that throught history men have done terrible things in the name of religion. Religion can be used to get people to follow and accept things they wouldn't normally. However, that doesn't mean that religion is the problem, but rather it gets used by devious men.

To me, organized religion is necessary for effective operations of religious things like buildings, missionary work, publications, and instruction, but the determination of worthiness is between the individual and the Lord. I think there are always men willing to preach to people that they know the way to salvation and they can decree whether a person is worthy. They use the desires of man to be saved from doom and create a falsified path to salvation. People become duped, and then religion gets a bad name.

I think that a true seeker investigating Christianity will be willing to take the time to learn the teachings of Christ, and be willing to try the experiment He offers. Do what he teaches, and then you will know if He is the Son of God, or if He is just blowing smoke. Of course, if he never existed, the experiment is pointless from the get-go. But if he did exist, then you can know both that he was real and that his teachings are true.

No coercion is involved in following His teachings, and you don't have to satisfy any man to find out if His teachings are true.

Once one knows He is real, then other questions can be asked in the context that He is real. But it all revolves around the existence of God.

Hope this helps.

I am not against knowing the truth or god but what you describe is self brainwashing and not actually proving anything. I do not mean to sound harsh to you, but I can convince myself of anything if I think about it constantly and read about it constantly. I do not want to convince myself that their is a God or Jesus I want him to show me beyound in reasonable doubt in plain light, by means of what he has given me, eyes, ears, nose etc.. that he does indeed exist and that I am not a fool following other mens words, ideals etc.. through brainwashing, and sure wish for something more than what is evident on this planet in reality.

The bible does have good things in it that provide guidance for peacefull existance with other men yet I still do not see any evidence other than at one time in my life "I knew he was real" I have to admit that was because I blindly belived what I read and heard from the mouths and writin words of men.

I am sincere in that I wish it was all true, but as I grow older and wiser I find it harder to just accept the writings of men and words and beliefs of others so I need god to show me if in fact he is real and loves me and cares for me, I want him to just flat out let us see undeniable proof that god is more than just the writings of men.

And just because the world is beutiful mysterious and the universe has some (human percieved) inteligent order to it does not prove that a GOD created it.

Again I am asking someone or god himself to show us undeniable proof of his existance so we may follow the right and truthful god religion.



I will point out that I am not denying god or christ I am only denying that any religeon provides any proof at all that god exisits other than by the writings of men weather you belive those writings to be god inspired or not, it is still just the writings of men that we blindly follow and have faith in.

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by Xeven]

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by Xeven]