rightwing patriots are liars.

rightwing people seem to be always professing their love for their country. In britain, we have them singing songs about colonial rule and slavery - when "britannia ruled the waves" while they wave those cute little union flags and talk about a war "we won" that ended 59 years ago. In america, nationalism seems to be even more potent. in some cases it's obsessive to the point people cant function without chanting U.S.A U.S.A! at every conceivable moment.

its not really that that bothers me though - although i do find all form of nationalism deplorable (hence my choice of signature).

its that when an election comes, these noble thoughts of a love for ones country are exchanged for rampant self-interest. if rightwing people love their country so much then why do they vote according to what will benefit them rather than the populace as a whole? ideas such as progressive taxation are rejected in favour of a system of tax that sustains appaling economic inequality. people who voted thatcher in the 1980s, did so despite the total destruction of northern industry, the high unemployment figures and increased number of people living below the poverty line rising dramatically. But that didnt matter to those people, because on a personal level, they had a few extra pennies in their back pocket. Patriotism?

so if rightwing patriots have no interest in the welfare of their fellow countrymen what are they actually patriotic about?

be a patriot: vote socialist.

Unfortunately, you felt the need to mention the U.S., elsewise I could have left comment to a Brit.

You start out by saying "right wing patriots are liars", but mention nothing of alleged lies. So far as I can see, you're a commy liar as I haven't crossed the path of the first American chanting "USA! USA!".

Progressive taxation is thievery, but you call stealing "redistribution". Personally, I 'd rather enjoy the fruits of my own labor and allow others to do the same, rather than be a sorry, lazy thief and allow someone else work for my next meal, but that is me, obviously not you.

You aren't concerned about the welfare of your fellow countrymen and you know it. There's only two reasons why someone would be pushing such a system. Either they intend on doing less work as they know the system will pay them the same pitiful pittance no matter what their personal drive is, or they intend on being part of the ruling class, living off the first fruits of others' labor and controlling the people to the point of sending people with my conflicting ideas to the death camps.

I spent my younger days standing between your deadly idea of utopia and the rest of the western world and have earned the right to tell you to screw off.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go to work. You see, I support my way of life with my own work

all socialists are __________
hmm arent all are/none are statements often wrong?
lying commie!

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne
Unfortunately, you felt the need to mention the U.S., elsewise I could have left comment to a Brit.

You start out by saying "right wing patriots are liars", but mention nothing of alleged lies. So far as I can see, you're a commy liar as I haven't crossed the path of the first American chanting "USA! USA!".

ok i admit the title is sensationalist. but "rightwing patriots are inconsistent/hypocritical" doesnt sound as enticing. im surprised you havent heard any americans chanting that. but anyway even if im wrong on that example, my general opening point still stands (rightwing americans are very nationalistic)

Progressive taxation is thievery, but you call stealing "redistribution". Personally, I 'd rather enjoy the fruits of my own labor and allow others to do the same, rather than be a sorry, lazy thief and allow someone else work for my next meal, but that is me, obviously not you.

this is exactly what i was talking about. i believe that people have a duty to ensure the everyone enjoys highest standard of living possible, or at the very least that people dont starve while others live in unimaginable opulence. im quite prepared to pay for this out of taxation.

You aren't concerned about the welfare of your fellow countrymen and you know it. There's only two reasons why someone would be pushing such a system. Either they intend on doing less work as they know the system will pay them the same pitiful pittance no matter what their personal drive is, or they intend on being part of the ruling class, living off the first fruits of others' labor and controlling the people to the point of sending people with my conflicting ideas to the death camps.

the reason i believe in a system of equality is that i have a social conscience and genuinely want the world to be a better place. im not sure where youre going with the tyranny and death camps comment.

I spent my younger days standing between your deadly idea of utopia and the rest of the western world and have earned the right to tell you to screw off.

you dont need to earn your right to tell me to screw off, it is part of your inalienable human rights package won for you by liberal thinkers
the way i see it, i want everyone to earn a decent living wage, have enough food and for people to be happy worldwide. i know this is utopian, but deadly? youre happy in a world where millions of people starve every year and youre calling my idea deadly?.


Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to go to work. You see, I support my way of life with my own work


i'll give you an insight into my life. i graduated last year and cant find work. instead of sitting on my arse as you believe all socialists do, i do volountary unpaid work everyday for oxfam. when i have worked, and when i work again, i will be happy to support the less fortunate person's way of life through taxation. this is because i care about my fellow man

and anyway, you havent answered my question, how can you love your country but not feel obliged to help your needy fellow countrymen?

Originally posted by CazMedia
all socialists are __________
hmm arent all are/none are statements often wrong?
lying commie!

semantics, semantics, semantics.
answer the question.

and anyway, you havent answered my question, how can you love your country but not feel obliged to help your needy fellow countrymen?




its called individualism

Originally posted by squintingcat

its called individualism

No, that's called bulls**t!!!! That doesn't address the issue and it's the worst attempt at side-stepping it I've ever seen.

You are not progressing this discussion you are holding it back, you are part of the problem not the solution.

Just take a step back, take a deep breath and re-evaluate your life.

[Edited on 26-3-2004 by John Nada]

Originally posted by squintingcat
its called individualism

i dont understand, please define individualism for me.

if people dont feel morally obliged to help their fellow citizens, what exactly are you patriotic about?

TC you do indeed come across as a bad idiot sometimes (did I say sometimes? j/k) Bolshevik has made some very interesting points and instead you have wasted your time by addressing his thread TITLE. This was something that was meant to be enticing, and don't tell me you've never done it.

Instead of answering his very good point about Patriotism you have basically spent the better part of 6 paragraphs telling him he's a commie monster, rather than address the very good point indeed. Shame on you!!!

I find it very humourous how right-wing Patriot arseholes react angrily when they can't answer a question, or their ideologies are tested. You have shown your ignorance here today by not trying to address the issue but instead attack a fairly new member who's ideas you can barely fathom with that pea-sized brain of yours.

I spent my younger days standing between your deadly idea of utopia and the rest of the western world and have earned the right to tell you to screw off.

You don't have to "earn" anything TC, it's your God given right and it's something the founding fathers did "for their fellow man". What have you done?

As it raises some very good questions that can be serviced via unmuddy back & forth.

I think 'Patriotism' is the wrong word being used. When dealing with Right Wing, it's more accurate to reference 'Jingoism'....then your arguments are irrefutable.

No, BT, this is not politics and scandal as there is no current events scandal here. This is merely a political debate. As far as jingoism, be careful of painting with such a brush as you can get alot of the paint splattered on your own self.

Interesting you say that you want to help the less fortunate with other peoples' money, Bol. That is what you just said when you said you wanted to do it with taxes. Here's an idea, do it with your own money, and put it to where you think it should go. That's what my family does. That way you circumvent giving it to the lazy and those who choose not to be a productive member of society. Keep your grubby mits off of what I earn as I have no desire to contribute to your failed programs. Your "system of social conscience" is bull. It has already been tried and proven a failure. Your system, as I've already said, causes starvation, corrupt tyranny and gulags (To which I referred to as death camps earlier. That seemed to throw you.) While your heroes live in lavish palaces, the equality to which you refer is in the fact that there rest of the population stand in long lines equally, hoping for the food their family needs.

You earned a degree? I'm proud of that, and I hope you are able to apply your trade and be very successful. That is what in my country you are expected to do. You have the right to pursue success and happiness. There is no guarrantee that you will succeed as their is no guarrantee that you will do what it takes.

John, if you aren't capable of understanding anything farther than COMMY MONSTER (I never said monster, great sensationalism) then you have the learning difficulty, not me. I said what I did to keepthe spread of Soviet communism from spreading across the borders of Western Europe, if you decided to skip that sentence or two, try again. If my brain is pea-sized, it is because, just as capacitance components have been able to get smaller while doing more, my brain has become similarly more efficient. Judging by your inability to comprehend my first posting, I'd say you are still using the equivalent of the cathode ray tube.

Put your money where your mouth is, Bol, as I do. But keep your hands out of my pockets, as I give to where I see it is needed. Anyway, whatever you want to do, lead your country into a failed system if you wish, as I am not your countryman.

Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

John, if you aren't capable of understanding anything farther than COMMY MONSTER (I never said monster, great sensationalism) then you have the learning difficulty, not me. I said what I did to keepthe spread of Soviet communism from spreading across the borders of Western Europe, if you decided to skip that sentence or two, try again. If my brain is pea-sized, it is because, just as capacitance components have been able to get smaller while doing more, my brain has become similarly more efficient. Judging by your inability to comprehend my first posting, I'd say you are still using the equivalent of the cathode ray tube.

Well regardless of what you have said here, what I said seemed to have the desired effect as you've actually bothered to give a decent answer to his question this time. My work here is done.
I didn't put commie monster in ""quotation marks, just generally summing up your previous post. It's not sensationalism when any moron can go two posts further up and see that you didn't say that, a tad sensitive aren't we.

pointing at russia and saying, 'look socialism doesnt work' is like me saying 'capitalism doesnt work, it ends up in tyranny, look at franco and mussolini' - its not a fair argument. besides, im not arguing here that i want the destruction of capitalist society just that i want a far more equal dispersion of wealth.

i know there are lazy people out there who dont want to work, but that doesnt mean we should scrap the entire welfare state system or totally disregard the radical system of redistribution i believe in. millions of people fail to vote in every election, but that does not mean we should get rid of the demoncratic system. it just means that society has a problem and that we need to find a solution.

but i still dont understand how you can love america, but not want to provide for the needy people who live there. i cant help but find that pardoxical.

It's unfortunate there are poverty strucken people,
but liberls make that up by making programs programs progams.

These people don't want to get back on their feet, either because they are lazy, or they need psychiatric/psychological treatment.


They have programs to get you on your feet, get back to work, free education night school, adult school, employment centres, and programs to help people start up their own business.

We don't help?????? Bahaha what a load of crap.
Amity, salvation army, housing, volunteer people who start up their own housing network for impovrished people.


I don't want to give my hard working money to other people so they can suck off my tit. It doesn't work like that.

Being Patriotic is something that correlates with how this country was made, the wars for freedoms, you know what freedoms?
To be who you want to be, to do what you want to do. To be free from a monarchy's ruling hand.
Freedom.
Not socialism, not a war to fight for a "utopian" regime that would disperse equal amounts of wealth to every citizen of this country.


That's why people are patriotic, because of freedoms. This is a free market society, if you took that away and started telling people how much they could have for food sheltar and clothing, they wouldn't feel patriotic, it would be a shock, they would get depressed just like the russians. Suckin of vodka to numb their sense of oppression.

People by nature, need to work, they need to do something to feel good about themselves, they want to do what they feel is there niche, and make money doing doing it. Yes people makemoney helping other people. Shocking isn't it.

By talking about socialism you are robbing people of a dream. To do what they want. You would then be robbing them of their income so that somebody who needs it because they can't kick start their OWN engine would benefit from that person.

I don't think so buddy!






[Edited on 26-3-2004 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by bolshevik


but i still dont understand how you can love america, but not want to provide for the needy people who live there. i cant help but find that pardoxical.

How can you love needy people? While you feel empathy for them, you aren't going to just start giving your money to them to support their neediness.
Loving America is not about loving needy people.
That's why we love it. Who the hell loved East Germany?
As far as I know people were jumping over the Berlin wall just to get to freedom. And they were held back, shot and killed, they were dying to get over there because they didn't want to live in a socialist regime.

Same with the U.S.S.R.......... How did that work out?
As far as I can remember people had a problem with alcoholism.... These people needed help. They needed to get away from their socialist regimes, because it wasn't doing them any good. You know how it was doing good for? The people at the top. Hmmm can you say Stalin?

Originally posted by TrueLies

How can you love needy people? While you feel empathy for them, you aren't going to just start giving your money to them to support their neediness.
Loving America is not about loving needy people.
That's why we love it. Who the hell loved East Germany?
As far as I know people were jumping over the Berlin wall just to get to freedom. And they were held back, shot and killed, they were dying to get over there because they didn't want to live in a socialist regime.

Same with the U.S.S.R.......... How did that work out?
As far as I can remember people had a problem with alcoholism.... These people needed help. They needed to get away from their socialist regimes, because it wasn't doing them any good. You know how it was doing good for? The people at the top. Hmmm can you say Stalin?

it's not a matter of loving needy people, but acknowledging your moral responsibilty to help them. what you are advocating is a society that accepts the needless deaths of thousands of its citizens out of sheer greed and self interest - and "thats why we love america"?

ive already talked about stalin in this thread. as i said before he was about as socialist as mussolini was a liberal capitalist. he is irrelevant to this discussion.

give me a minute and i'll respond to your original post.

Moral responsibility isn't handing over your money to help the needy.

While I do my fair share in helping people I can tell need help, I do not go knock on somebody's welfare door to hand over money so that they can buy crack, coc aine, booze, or heroin.

The needy people are not as needy as you think they are.


Why do you think the needy people are helpless people??

Do they not have arms and legs?? Are they missing an opposable thumb?




And yes people are self serving, it's what you do to survive.

I believe the words i'm looking for are...Darwin's theory........



[Edited on 26-3-2004 by TrueLies]

Originally posted by bolshevik
ok i admit the title is sensationalist. but "rightwing patriots are inconsistent/hypocritical" doesnt sound as enticing. im surprised you havent heard any americans chanting that. but anyway even if im wrong on that example, my general opening point still stands (rightwing americans are very nationalistic)

Last time I checked, Libs vote for their own interest too. Notice how the poor tend to vote more for Democrates (i.e. the ones who propagate social spending). Your theory is flawed.

this is exactly what i was talking about. i believe that people have a duty to ensure the everyone enjoys highest standard of living possible, or at the very least that people dont starve while others live in unimaginable opulence. im quite prepared to pay for this out of taxation.

Perhaps you would like to enjoy a bloated centralized government that misuses tax money in the extreme. If you want your money to be effective in helping people, then do it yourself. Don't let the government dictate how you contribute to your fellow man by looking at "the numbers", which is all they can do. What you are paying for more than anything else is overhead. Some benifit.

the reason i believe in a system of equality is that i have a social conscience and genuinely want the world to be a better place.

What you preach is not possible. The best thing to do is to get involved in your community. It is from the bottom up rather than the top down that social change can occur, but I wouldn't expect you to understand that. You suffer from the "throw money at the problem" disease.

you dont need to earn your right to tell me to screw off, it is part of your inalienable human rights package won for you by liberal thinkers
the way i see it, i want everyone to earn a decent living wage, have enough food and for people to be happy worldwide. i know this is utopian, but deadly? youre happy in a world where millions of people starve every year and youre calling my idea deadly?.

Yes, wealth redistribution only serves to take from those who work for themselves. I support 2 kids and my wife by myself, but the government wants to make me contribute to people I don't see fit to contribute to. I am the only one who should dictate who recieves my help. I should be the master of my charity.

i'll give you an insight into my life. i graduated last year and cant find work. instead of sitting on my arse as you believe all socialists do, i do volountary unpaid work everyday for oxfam. when i have worked, and when i work again, i will be happy to support the less fortunate person's way of life through taxation. this is because i care about my fellow man

You care. That at least I can respect, but do you truely think the government (who historically squanders money like an irresponcible kid) can do the best good? I could support social spending more if it was done through local government who is much more adapt in assessing need in their area and can focus on the problems rather than blanket solutions which only serve to add to the injustice of federal taxation for social spending.

and anyway, you havent answered my question, how can you love your country but not feel obliged to help your needy fellow countrymen?

Believe it or not but we do care, and no amount of being against federal social spending can change that. It is rather that we would like to be in control of the money we sweat for every day, and to help those in our community rather than to feed a bloated misappropriating federal program. This seems pretty obvious to me. You can not dictate social conciousness through massive federal programs that only serve to create huge overhead costs that drain the effectiveness of the money we pay.

Originally posted by TrueLies
It's unfortunate there are poverty strucken people,
but liberls make that up by making programs programs progams.

These people don't want to get back on their feet, either because they are lazy, or they need psychiatric/psychological treatment.

are you saying all unemployed people are lazy or mentally ill? this is not true.

They have programs to get you on your feet, get back to work, free education night school, adult school, employment centres, and programs to help people start up their own business.

We don't help?????? Bahaha what a load of crap.
Amity, salvation army, housing, volunteer people who start up their own housing network for impovrished people.

I don't want to give my hard working money to other people so they can suck off my tit. It doesn't work like that.

does that mean youre against all the welfare programmes you just listed?. and i havent stated that society doesnt help - here in the uk we have a wonderful free health service - i believe however that we should do more. and this isnt simply about the unemployed. im saying that people on low wages deserve more. why should someone be punished for lack of opportunities, lower intelligence - things beyong our control?

Being Patriotic is something that correlates with how this country was made, the wars for freedoms, you know what freedoms?
To be who you want to be, to do what you want to do. To be free from a monarchy's ruling hand.
Freedom.
Not socialism, not a war to fight for a "utopian" regime that would disperse equal amounts of wealth to every citizen of this country.

it must be nice to be free of monarchy's rulling hand, id quite like that here. but anyway, im not saying i want social uniformity, rather a system of economic equality. there is a substantial difference between the two. and i understand what you mean about a national historical consciousness, but it still seems strange to me that you can love your country but vote for a party who will support your interests and no the nation's

That's why people are patriotic, because of freedoms. This is a free market society, if you took that away and started telling people how much they could have for food sheltar and clothing, they wouldn't feel patriotic, it would be a shock, they would get depressed just like the russians. Suckin of vodka to numb their sense of oppression.

in the system i propose people can spend their money however they like. im not talking about soviet 'socialism'. i would have thought people would be more patriotic knowing that they are contributing to a society where everyone earns a decent living wage and hunger and poverty abolished

People by nature, need to work, they need to do something to feel good about themselves, they want to do what they feel is there niche, and make money doing doing it. Yes people makemoney helping other people. Shocking isn't it.

By talking about socialism you are robbing people of a dream. To do what they want. You would then be robbing them of their income so that somebody who needs it because they can't kick start their OWN engine would benefit from that person.

I don't think so buddy!

in contemporary society many people want to go to university but cannot afford it. many people want to take a vocational risk and try something creative but lack the financial foundations to take such a risk or fear the repercussions. it is this, not socialism that is robbing people of their dreams. redistribution of wealth would enable people to follow those dreams



[Edited on 26-3-2004 by TrueLies]

It is you, Bol, that continues to say that we do not care. Just because you say that doesn't make it true. I have already cleared that up. John was a tad slow, and I reiterated what I'd already said, and he caught on. You are more than slow, you are merely marking time.

It is not your system that has helped any society of its own and also the world, but mine. You know this to be true. Your ideas are paradoxial, not mine. I personally do contribute to the needy, out of my own pocket, in my own community. This is much more productive than a wasteful program, to which I am forced to contribute through taxes, anyway.

Speaking of which, your argument is quite moot, because we already have a wasteful system that saps the incentive and drive out of people, taking away their self-respect and self-esteem. We call it the welfare system. We have large numbers of people who are enslaved by that system. We don't need your ideas to make it worse. If you want to change your nation, feel free. No real need, though, there are already nations that are warnings to others, no need in adding another.