Dow Closes. Up 936 Points

reply to post by tide88


Yes, my apologies for the confusion there. My initial reply should have been addressed to the post by LowLevelMason.

Originally posted by Mainer
up 2% is good news. Up 11% is part of the worrying trend of wild swings.

Yes I agree. Hopefully we will see the market start to settle down. Market stability would be the best. Curious to see what tomorrow brings.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
reply to post by burdman30ott6

 

Its well known that the money from the bail out hasn't even been used yet

Can you please point a link that shows, or explains that the bail out money hasn't been used yet.

How do you know this? Unless you are working on the inside..ie: government...this information should not be available.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
Last week was senseless panic selling fueled by people like those on ATS declaring that the end was nigh. Nothing in the bail out package allowed a way to manipulate stocks, as we clearly saw last week.

How do you know this? Please list your sources for your claims.

Until you can post links, or sources, your credibility is 0.

Here's a question for any economic experts out there....

How feasible would it be to plan a crash such as this, and have built into it a day (being today) where the market spikes dramatically, followed by another swift downturn?

Wouldn't this be a great way for TPTB to raise immense amounts of capital? I guess this will be answered tomorrow if the market tanks again.

Is that plausible?

All this tells me is how unstable the market really is, if it can gain 900 points in one day it can drop 900 points the next day. Yes it's good it recovered, but doesn't anyone think there could be consequences for a market rising too rapidly (like hyperinflation perhaps?). What happens if prices will rise too fast and people wont wont be able to keep up with them? What happens if everyone bought in today and will sell tomorrow because they see this as only temporary? You end up worse then you went in. I don't think one could call this jump "good" until the week is over at the very least. Going up too fast is just as deadly as going down too fast.
People at the beginning of the depression complained because the government didn't do enough. Now trying not to repeat the depression they're doing way too much and could be pushing us into something very different.

Originally posted by Mainer
up 2% is good news. Up 11% is part of the worrying trend of wild swings.

I was just researching wild swings, especially on the upside. Here's what I've found - biggest percentage swings on record:

3/15/33 - +15.34%
10/6/31 - +14.87%
10/30/29 - +12.34%
9/21/32 - +11.36%
10/13/08 - +11.08%
10/21/87 - +10.15%
8/3/32 - +9.52%
2/11/32 -+9.47%
11/14/29 - +9.36%
12/18/31 - +9.35%

I do not remember seeing anyone say ppt or something. We all know that the government threw the kitchen sink at the economy and this is why they felt like they could jump back in.

Americas still bankrupt, and plenty of pundits think so. lol

I posted this on October 8th.

"Large US hedge Funds are very short the S&P 500 futures….

These funds were shorting the futures to hedge their core long holding over the last 10 days.

The further the mkt dropped the more aggressive they got…..yesterday, the open interest rose by 115,000 contracts. At over 600,000 contract, this is the largest open interest in the S&P futures. (see Bloomberg charts below)

Should the mkt stabilize here and push upward, these contracts will HAVE to be covered….creating a significant torque to the upside."

Originally posted by leo123
I posted this on October 8th.

"Large US hedge Funds are very short the S&P 500 futures….

These funds were shorting the futures to hedge their core long holding over the last 10 days.

The further the mkt dropped the more aggressive they got…..yesterday, the open interest rose by 115,000 contracts. At over 600,000 contract, this is the largest open interest in the S&P futures. (see Bloomberg charts below)

Should the mkt stabilize here and push upward, these contracts will HAVE to be covered….creating a significant torque to the upside."

Hey Leo,

Could you maybe explain this in terms of what impact it may have in the days to come?

Originally posted by Mammoth
Sorry, i dont see any good news in prolonging a corrupt system of greed, risk and fear. The powers that be will try anything to keep this money beast alive.

I just enjoy the desperation & frustration of CNBC anchors when things dont go their way.

Finally someone with some sense. I love to watch all these people cheer on and defend the corrupt illusion that keeps people in debt slavery, stuck in the old paradigm. Those of us who want collapse don't want doom and gloom we want freedom and happiness which this current monetary system clearly stands in the way of.

It's really anybody's guess, but historically you never get a rally of a magnitude like this in a bull market, they are virtually all bear market rallies.

Here's a couple of lines we like to use:

"The trend is your friend"

"When a ship is sinking, get out of it's way"

I feel that alot of the bounce is from a few factors.

1. the banks and bonds market was closed today, source of the massive instability. Thank you Christopher Columbus.

2. Suggestion carries alot of power on Wall St. Basically we've tipped our hand to them, saying that the US has an essentially limitless amount of money to pad them should they fall. The confidence of the hyper-elite is at an all-time high while Joe Everyman struggles to make his mortgage payments.

3. Paulson began buying up bad debt before he was legally allowed to, but nobody's even looking that way right now. It's a temporary fix.

4. The market is incredibly volatile right now, meaning that it is prone to mad shifts. I wouldn't be surprised in the least if we saw a differential of 8% tomorrow downward OR upward.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
To all of the ATS doom people: Your still fear mongering without reason.

Um I think as last week showed, those who were not fear mongering just for a long time pointing out facts, and where this was going were proved right.

I say those who have propagated, and created the Illusory Bubble of wealth based on FIAT money supply, have been creating the causal effect of the very fear many people face now about their Pension, retirement age and savings, income after taxes in the future to.

Those warning of this, with often well sourced and factual information, have not created the current problems, and fear.

Some of us have just spoken the truth before mainstream.

Typical, even FOX does better than that my friend, at least they use some NLP not just the classic game of debating you are trying, to get a Falsehood accepted as truth, and to shift blame, ridicule and belittle those with the facts and truth.

In Greece thousands of years ago Plato, and more notably Socrates used this tactic, commented on it and such like.

Many people on ATS are aware of this tactic Mr Mason, and if they were not they know now

It's what Palin is doing now against Obama with "Terrorist" links and such like, her style of presenting it. (Though I do not Support Obama, same chicken different feather's! just again noting facts.)

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
But your wrong. Last week was total senseless panic selling fueled by the fear mongers, and now people regained some of their rationality. Its not the end of the world people, and its time those who desperately want it to be come back to reality. Your going to have to find something else to scare people about.

I think actually you will find that it was the amount of leverage, a Major war with no taxes in the US, and a cyclic, repeated Housing Bubble.The Personal Debt explosion too. Credit Card debt has exploded, people paying interest on money that never existed anyway and such like.

Not by some people warning of this happening

Again my friend, it is not us here who have caused this Fear you mention much, and are therefore obviously experiencing now yourself. We have wanted to have change to equity and fairness through the truth. The opposite of fear.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
1) A deat cat bounce.
2) Short covering.
3) Market manipulation.

Not at all. The plan certainly will provide a fix to stop the entire system completely collapsing over the next couple of weeks. However this is the issue, next Quarter, Targets, Flip It mentality that brought us here.

We might not now see the only outcome of the actions taken by the Europeans and the US in providing the liquidity in the markets now, the blood the bankers have sucked out like vampires, for normal economic functioning.

However by spring of next year now at latest and unfortunately probably before the indications of the next storm my friend.

Not of your above, as anyone who has any understanding of the Currency Market;s and macro economics, knows deep down that either we are in line next for

[color=#FFFF00]A run on the Dollar

Or More Probably

A Hyper-Inflationary Depression.

At this point, the Fed will find itself between Scylla and Charybdis—between deflation and hyperinflation—it will be forced fast either to take its “classical medicine” by deflating, whereby it raises interest rates, thus inducing a major economic depression, a collapse in real estate, and an implosion in bond, stock, and derivative markets, with a total financial collapse, or alternatively, to take the Weimar way out by inflating, whereby it pegs the long-bond yield, raises the Helicopters and drowns the financial system in liquidity, bailing out numerous LTCMs and hyperinflating the economy.
About the Author
Krassimir Petrov has received his PhD in economics from the Ohio
State University and currently teaches Macroeconomics, International Finance, and Econometrics

Source

The source from some time ago, way before this point, and about the Iranian Oil Burge without this Credit Crisis!

Wake up Mr Mason.

Hope these facts allay your nerves somewhat, really there is some great Docu's for you to see at ATS HERE

Explains a lot. Be angry at those who brought us to this, not at US or fearful.

Kind Regards,

Elf

[edit on 13-10-2008 by MischeviousElf]

This thread proves it - on ATS, most people just want to believe that the economy is going down and economic Armageddon is near. People act absolutely hysterical over 4 days of stocks selling off, and then we have 2 days where we end net +800 or so, and the response is "its not a big deal!"

No, it isn't. And neither was last week. But if your going to encourage hysteria and panic over 4 days, its obvious what your agenda is when you try to brush off 2 days - or even 1 day.

The logic behind the pro-economic doom crowd is beyond hilarious. You cry "manipulation" when the stock market goes up, and then act like its all genuine selling when the stock market drops. No, it doesn't work like that. If real manipulation was occurring, last week would have never happened.

How else do you explain a massive upswing in a ridiculously short period of time which defies all logic and market sense?

Easily: its quite logical and has lots of market sense, because last week for 4 days there was nothing but market downswings in a short period of time which defied all logic and market sense. The smart money saw a good buy and took it, while the panic sellers lose - as the always do.

Also, you can cry about volume and it doesn't matter either, because it means no one was selling - obviously, because all the panic sellers had nothing else to sell after last week. If the end was really here and things were that bad, a bonk market holiday would not have stopped another down swing.

But lets ignore reality and just keep following the mass media - maybe if we wish for a crash we'll get one!

There are a multitude of variables that have resulted in this dynamic day on Wall Street.

First, and foremost, the stocks that caused this giant leap were a lucky few. (Although most stocks did rise that means very little. Rising tide raises all boats.) However, the rise was predominately in the utilities, Asian ag, and a few other choice areas.

Now, add to this the falling price of oil and gold as well as the reality that the 700 billion does not exist yet and the ingredients for economic collapse are still there.

I ask all the cockeyed optimists please elaborate on where, just where, is the money going to come from? It is coming from the fed, they are going to print it, and the dollar is not going to be worth a peso. So, where will the emerging markets with all their vaunted growth seek shelter...the Euro?

The real troubled times are still ahead. The US produces squat. Russia is Saudi Arabia with snow and when oil takes a huge dump, and it most likely will, then what? What new bubble can we create?

In short, we can't. I am not a doom and gloomer. However, I am a realist and the reality is a few wealthy elites cannot saddle the entire world with debt and think that it is not going to have a negative impact.

When you see cannabalism rise in the civilized parts of sub-Saharan Africa, Europe and America plunged into crime ridden chaos, and the US government bankrupt, remember, all the folks on Wall Street are doin' just swell! "THANKS FOR THE CASH INFUSION!"

Just my humble op-onion!

Oh, and to the fear mongers who are trying to "blame" a 930 point rally on the Paulson using his bail out money - your going to have to find another reason to try to explain away whats happening.

When the stock market went down 777 points after the bail out passed, the New York Times and other media proclaimed that this was a market value loss of $1.1trillion dollars. So even though only fractions of the $700 billion bail out package is used to buy distressed assets (which don't impact stock market performance), if you want to basically show complete ignorance and claim that Paulson is using that money, he still couldn't cause a 930 point rally. It would take something like $1.5 trillion, less than 50% of the total bailout package, to cause this rally.

And yeah, I think the CBO would notice $700 billion going out and into the wrong account. They may be dumb, but they aren't that dumb.

But you guys keep grasping at straws, I've seen enough to see that any type of facts or reason that don't point to a "omg the end is near" mentality will be ignored.

I know you really want some economic gloom , and I'll leave you to whip yourselves up into a fury hoping for a crash tomorrow. I'm going to have to stop spreading reason and facts in the financial threads until the bulk of ATS comes back to its senses. Right now its just a minority being reasonable and am majority trying to fear monger.


[edit on 13-10-2008 by LowLevelMason]

Originally posted by TARBOX

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
reply to post by burdman30ott6

 

Its well known that the money from the bail out hasn't even been used yet

Can you please point a link that shows, or explains that the bail out money hasn't been used yet.

How do you know this? Unless you are working on the inside..ie: government...this information should not be available.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason
Last week was senseless panic selling fueled by people like those on ATS declaring that the end was nigh. Nothing in the bail out package allowed a way to manipulate stocks, as we clearly saw last week.

How do you know this? Please list your sources for your claims.

Until you can post links, or sources, your credibility is 0.

The plan has not be implemented. It is common knowledge that really shouldnt need a source. It has been talked about on every news outlet and forum on the internet. However, this pretty much explains that they are just looking at getting the team together and then will find out the next steps they need to take and what to spend the money on.

The administration's interim bailout package chief, Neel Kashkari, said early Monday the government is moving quickly to implement the rescue program, including consulting with private law firms on how to buy stakes in banks to boost their cash reserves.....Kashkari, the assistant Treasury secretary who is interim head of the program, said officials were developing the guidelines that will govern the purchase of bad assets and had consulted with six specialist law firms on how the government will take partial ownership of banks....Kashkari, however, provided few details about how the program will actually buy bad assets and partial ownership in banks. He focused mainly on the nuts and bolts of getting the program running.

source

Everyone that said that this was due to volatility got a star from me. That's exactly what it is. There was no genuinely good news that sparked this rally. By good news I don't mean that we're nationalizing banks either. That's inherently bad. The government is one of the few entities out there that could *snip* up a wet dream.

Volatility is bad, mmkay? Just look at the dates posted by anachryon. Those dates aren't exactly the brightest points of our past, financially speaking. Two things will happen from this.

1. Some people are going to make stupidly large amounts of money.
2. Too bad the people in #1 will see the value of that money shrink due to inflation. The printing presses are in hyperdrive right now.

Originally posted by Loki
3. Paulson began buying up bad debt before he was legally allowed to, but nobody's even looking that way right now. It's a temporary fix.

Really? I am not saying this isnt true, but do you have a source that tells this or have some inside information? If so, please do tell.