Is The Trinity Biblical?

babylon, greece and rome all had trinity teachings. hindus also have a trinity of siva, brahma, and vishnu.

------------
i would like you to note that the church has been notorious for adapting pagan traditions.

such examples include - easter, christmas, halloween (rituals). immortal soul, hellfire, icons (doctrine).




( No Miraim, what they did is put their hollidays as the bible talks about not letting people judge you of, this is why he gave them the power to lose and bind on Earth kid.

firstly they are trying to devert attention to those pagan hollidays with the (christian) ones they created to serve Christ.



Miriam
praying to god ironically, which wouldnt really be necessary if he and God were the same person if you think




( firslty I can sense your arrogance here, but that's another thing in your soul you will come to deal with later. Now the reason he was praying was because he came as a servant and wanted to testify to us that.


as we see in Phillipians 2: It says he came as a sevrant but was (equal) to God.



Miram
1808: "and the word was a god." The New Testament in an Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome's New Translation: With a Corrected Text.

1864: "and a god was the word." The Emphatic Diaglott, interlinear reading, by Benjamin Wilson.

1928: "and the Word was a divine being." La Bible du Centenaire, L'Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel.

1935: "and the Word was divine." The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed.

1946: "and of a divine kind was the Word." Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme.

1950: "and the Word was a god." New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures.

1958: "and the Word was a God." The New Testament, by James L. Tomanek.

1975: "and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz.

1978: "and godlike kind was the Logos." Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider.



and why didn't you include after that it says, and that same word was made flesh and dwelt among us?



the Word was God", "ton



If the word was a God and God what's the difference? It was made flesh, and further more prophets are not made flesh and dwell among us.


Miraim you sound like a Muslim here.



Now here's some qoutes of mine.


jesus dieing (which god cant do)


No no girl, God can do because he had a fleshly body which dies. It's called the natural death of the body. ofcourse his spirit can't and he didn't say that did he.




Now these passages.



Matthew 11:27 ( all power in heaven given to Jesus)
Matthew 12:8 ( Jesus says he is the Lord of the sabbath)
Jhon 20:28 ( The disciple called christ Lord and God)
John 21:17 ( Jesus knows all things)
Titus 2:13 ( God and saviour)
Phillipians 2:5 ( Jesus taking form of servant but is equal to god)
Romans 9:5 ( Jesus over all things)
John 1:14 ( the word was made flesh) furthermore scripture talks about the messiah (God) in the flesh visiting his people
John 8:58 ( before abraham was made I am)
John 9:37 ( It is I (the messiah) that talketh with thee)
Hebrews 1:4 ( all things are subject to him )

1Thessalonians 3:13 (Christ and his saints)


You see Miram, you are a good hearted woman, but what you fail to realize is that God founded a church, and this church he gave the ability to loose and bind sins and things on Earth (like hollidays), and the fact is that it existed long before the protestant translations were even a thought, and it produced 100s of saints and will contin ue to do so just like it does with communion, and what you fail to realize is that Jesus came as a servant and he acted that way, which is why he prayed to God.

this is explained very well throughout scripture.


He is God in the flesh, and this is implanted on our bodies, and at death when god shows you why our boides are contructed like this you will see what I mean, but until then you can believe what you will.




peace.




sorry if somethings I wrote don't come off well. I'm writing too fast here.



[edit on 25-10-2008 by JesusisTruth]

" larry curly Moe, tom dick and harry "

This is funny as hell, but those three or those 6 are not the messiah are they? They didn't create a church and come in the flesh to save his people.

The crew of the three stooges didn't call Moe (my Lord and my God)


btw I loved that show when i was little, haven't seen it in ages.

reply to post by JesusisTruth

...God founded a church, and this church he gave the ability to loose and bind sins and things on Earth (like hollidays), and the fact is that it existed long before the protestant translations were even a thought, and it produced 100s of saints and will contin ue to do so just like it does with communion...

Are you implying that the "Church" has the authority to dictate the nature of God? This is what was claimed by the Council of Nicea. The Church claims it is right, by the fact that it comes to its conclusions unanimously. That was not the case. The Council was the invention of the Pagan sun worshiping, war monger Emperor Constantine. He invoked it and presided over it, and it was highly political in nature.
Half of the invited delegates to the council walked out before the main discussion of the Trinity even started because they realized it had been set up in advance to have a specific conclusion, regardless of how the Bishops thought about it.
Years later, the majority of Bishops were against the results of the Council of Nicea and overthrew it. A hundred years later, the pro-Niceans came back to power and it was reinstated and further reinforced by edicts from the powers that be.
Considering all of this, you seem to accept blindly the so-called orthodoxy of what you want to believe is an infallible authority over how God has to be.


[edit on 25-10-2008 by jmdewey60]

Jesus, a man but god, goes up to john who is the cousin of god. asks him to baptize him so that he can begin the work he sent himself to do. john precedes to baptize god who then begins to see himself descend upon himself like a dove. at this moment the heavens begin to open up to him which is unnecessary because god is omnipotent but it does anyway. jesus then throws his voice (he can do anything after all) and says a lie "this is my son" giving everyone there the impression that god is still in heaven even though he descended upon himself and is now sitting in the water. jesus then proceeds to the wilderness to mull over the things that he already new. there, satan comes up to him and proceeds to "tempt" god with 3 tests. satan tells jesus that he can provide for himself bread or protection from falling, he can even have the world governments if he wanted (though i dont see how that would be tempting to god). god then proceeds to tell satan that he cant worship him, but that he should worship himself.

should i keep going?




No, it's too cocky to keep going. First of all you have to atleast try and understand what God is here and stop ( you sound like the worldy people) with no understanding who say things in a cocky tone to try and play advocate.


God (Jesus) had a human body and was able to be tempted in the flesh, his manly nature. Even though satan knew he would'nt say yes to temptation. He did this to make a point that all his followers would have to be tempted like this.

Now I could see your little theory if God showed some weekness and almost gave in like the phony gospel of John movie had him say in that sceen where he was tempted and said (How)

God didn't say how. But the movie had that lie in it.


The reason he was baptised was again becuase of a sign and that he came as a empty human being lowering himself as a seervant and putting himself essentially below his people to serve his people.

but as we see also in the same scripture he had no sins and didn't need baptism.


again, no understanding defiles souls, and this is what athiest do, I don't understand why Miraim you would do this.


peace.

The Council was the invention of the Pagan sun worshiping, war monger Emperor Constantine. He invoked it and presided over it, and it was highly political in nature.



No Dewey, God gave the church the power to loose and bind things on Earth like the immaculate conception and so forth, and councils. This is the power he gave it.

We don't advocate sun worship, this is ridiculous. Have you read the council of Trents Catechism?

Sun worship is not condoned anywhere in our faith.



peace.

reply to post by JesusisTruth

...like the immaculate conception and so forth, and councils.

Where do you find that? From another council?
I am not saying he introduced sun worship directly. Constantine was not baptized until he was on his deathbed. Also, a large part of the Bishops who participated at Nicea were pagans who had not bothered converting to Christianity.
I do think that the hypotheses, that the Athanasian stance on the Trinity were based on, were Greek ideas about God.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
I agree with that. The highly structured and codified version we are handed, has to be not accepted at its face value, and it is up to the individual to struggle through their own understanding of the relationship of Jesus with the One he calls his Father.

i dont agree at all. (at least as i understand you, i might not be translating correctly)

its not up to the individual at all. god's nature is the way it is whether we have a different theory on it or not. if god's word is in fact god's word, he is very clear about his nature. this is the point that trinitarians ignore.

look at the big picture for a second, they take 2 scriptures (1john doesnt count because its been altered) that COULD be interpreted as jesus and god being one person, then they ignore an army of scriptures that blatantly and in no uncertain terms say they are different.

logical fallacy?

Originally posted by miriam0566
its not up to the individual at all. god's nature is the way it is whether we have a different theory on it or not. if god's word is in fact god's word, he is very clear about his nature. this is the point that trinitarians ignore.
look at the big picture for a second, they take 2 scriptures (1john doesnt count because its been altered) that COULD be interpreted as jesus and god being one person, then they ignore an army of scriptures that blatantly and in no uncertain terms say they are different.
logical fallacy?

Right! Anything we think about how God should be, will not change how God really is. My point is that if you have several different religious organizations, each offering their own version of the God nature, why should we blindly accept any of them? Why could we not read the Bible and come up with a version of our own that would be just as legitimate? Especially considering that at lest one of those versions (the "official" version) came out of a pagan dominated culture and was surrounded by controversy, not excluding power politics.
I do think we need to keep our beliefs consistent with the Bible, otherwise, we have no firm anchor to keep us from drifting into all sorts of errors.
I do not want to wear you down with some non-essential arguments. I appreciate you commenting and I would like to agree with you as much as possible.
First, I need to see if I understand what you are saying: It looks like you are saying that the Bible clearly describes the Nature of God, and that it also describes Jesus' nature as being different from that.
I think you are also saying God and Jesus are separate individuals.
If I correctly understand these as being your points, I would agree with you.
What I was trying to say in my earlier posts is that it is possible to believe in a trinity, without believing in the Trinity. I would use it in the most broad sense of the meaning of the word. It is hard to deny that there are three different things or individuals who belong to their own grouping, and so, could be considered a trinity.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth

The trintiy exist and is biblical, and further more it's literally implanted on our Torsos. The heart is on the left, Jesus sits at Gods right hand, the right side of the chest represents jesus. The belly button represents the holy Ghost which scripture says dwells in the body area. Those three points have much more meaning then you can imagine and God is revealing this at this time in history.

Now Psalms 109:1

" The Lord said to my (Lord) sit thou at my right hand "


So it was God speaking with the second person of God which is Christ, and notice he keeps saying right hand. That's the mystery he's talking about.

The heart is the left side of the chest.



Psalms 79:18


" Sit thou at my right hand "



Ok scripture says jesus is the messiah, God in the flesh. That spirit of truth talked about in John is the holy ghost.

how it works I don't know but I do believe in it.

peace.

Dude what the hell are you talking about?

I just read 2 very informative and intelligent posts (jmdewy and alien) and both posters have clearly done a little (extrabiblical) reaserch and cite their info along with their views, great thread so far.

Then you start yapping about ghosts in belly buttons and greater meaning than what is actually written, duh ?


A directional road sign indicating a bend in the road means just that, it's meaning will not change or added to later.

If a christian approaches this sign is he to think that it's a bend in the road that in fullness of time (whatever that's supposed to mean) will change into a snake so one should beware of the snake road.

Why is it I can read 2 sensible posts that I may or not agree with and find them reasonable and relitively informative, yet when a christian gets involved reason seems to go out the window ?

This is not a personal dig at yourself, but having spoken to or read posts etc written by christians, I constantly come away thinking what the hell is he on about?

reply to post by JesusisTruth

First of all you have to atleast try and understand what God is here and stop

I am not sure what you are talking about here or who you are talking to.
Jesus said he came to proclaim the Kingdom of God. So, the rule of God is with us, since the Kingdom is here, as said by Jesus. The Spirit of God is here, in a personal way, to comfort us and to lead us.
None of this would be possible without "God With Us", meaning Jesus. Jesus was the embodiment of the authority of God and could speak of the Kingdom in a specific manner that we can be assured is true. Also, Jesus shares in a divinity which is goodness and purity. Jesus as representative of God, witnessed through his actions, is with us in a spiritual sense. We have someone with us who is one of us and can also be a representative and an advocate for us, to God. He was given the full inhabiting of God's Spirit as the Fist Born of the Kingdom that we are to be inducted into, and we can be, because of his own qualities that stand in our stead and make us qualified for the privilege.


[edit on 26-10-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
( No Miraim, what they did is put their hollidays as the bible talks about not letting people judge you of, this is why he gave them the power to lose and bind on Earth kid.

firstly they are trying to devert attention to those pagan hollidays with the (christian) ones they created to serve Christ.

like the israelites worshipping the golden calf, but saying it represented god right? so its ok, as long as you sanctify the pagan ritual

remember jeroboam? he set up calfs, made priests of people who were not of levi and even set up a new festival "for the sons of isreal". he did this all IN THE NAME OF GOD. did it make it right? did god find any of it acceptable?

( firslty I can sense your arrogance here, but that's another thing in your soul you will come to deal with later. Now the reason he was praying was because he came as a servant and wanted to testify to us that.


as we see in Phillipians 2: It says he came as a sevrant but was (equal) to God.

thats not at all what the scripture says.

King James Bible

Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God:

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,

English Revised Version

who, being in the form of God, counted it not a prize to be on an equality with God

World English Bible

who, existing in the form of God, didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,

equality with god was not something jesus even thought was abtainable. that is what the scripture is saying

and why didn't you include after that it says, and that same word was made flesh and dwelt among us?

the word being made flesh and dwelling with us has nothing to do with the trinity. if the word was A god, then that means he was a spirit before being sent to earth. no conflict.

If the word was a God and God what's the difference? It was made flesh, and further more prophets are not made flesh and dwell among us.


Miraim you sound like a Muslim here.

no, you making me sound like a muslim by putting words in my mouth. jesus was not merely a prophet, he was the son of GOD. he was the firstborn of all creation (first thing created.) he existed long before abraham. he was higher than the angels.

but.... he was NOT god. he was a god. a title. which the greek plainly explains

No no girl, God can do because he had a fleshly body which dies. It's called the natural death of the body. ofcourse his spirit can't and he didn't say that did he.

natural death of the body? humans dont die naturally. reread genesis, death is a curse, a consequence. not natural.

and you raise the question, which is god? a spirit, or flesh? both? why would god do that?

Matthew 11:27 ( all power in heaven given to Jesus)

keyword there, "given", by whom? GOD. separate people.

also remember, jesus gives back the earth to god. how would that make sense if they are the same person?

Matthew 12:8 ( Jesus says he is the Lord of the sabbath)

how does this prove the trinity?

Jhon 20:28 ( The disciple called christ Lord and God)

yes, jesus is A god. satan too is refered to as the god of this world. its a title.

John 21:17 ( Jesus knows all things)

your taking a greek idiom and turning it into absolute truth. peter was simply telling jesus that he already knew the answer

Titus 2:13 ( God and saviour)

again, god is a title, lots of things are called god in the bible

Phillipians 2:5 ( Jesus taking form of servant but is equal to god)

you paraphrased that passage incorrectly, the scripture actually supports my arguement

Romans 9:5 ( Jesus over all things)

yes, god did put him over all things, doesnt mean they are one. the passage itself says that god blessed him forever. 2 separate people.

John 1:14 ( the word was made flesh) furthermore scripture talks about the messiah (God) in the flesh visiting his people

[14] And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

first off, nothing in that scripture that says messiah = almighty god. second, we witness his glory "as of" the father, it compares his glory to the father, doesnt say its the same glory. 2 separate people

John 8:58 ( before abraham was made I am)

first off, its "before abraham was made I HAVE BEEN." second, this in no way proves that him and god are one. if jesus was god's son, then he would have existed long before abraham.

John 9:37 ( It is I (the messiah) that talketh with thee)

jesus also said, if you have seen me, you have seen the father. jesus was the ultimate example of GOD. it doesnt prove they are one, especially when the rest of the bible disagrees

Hebrews 1:4 ( all things are subject to him )

considering jesus was made king, yes all would be made subject to him. but nows when the trinity gets confusing, if jesus and god are one, and god is lord of everything, why would he have to give that to himself?

1Thessalonians 3:13 (Christ and his saints)

GOD and jesus are mentioned separatly, im not sure why you quoted this....

You see Miram, you are a good hearted woman, but what you fail to realize is that God founded a church,

i agree. however that church would be known for the love it has amongst one another, they would follow gods commandments, they would be a light to the world. the catholic church possesses none of that (neither do protestant churches for that matter).

and this church he gave the ability to loose and bind sins and things on Earth (like hollidays),

that scripture is not talking about changing doctrine nor is it talking about adopting pagan holidays. that is false worship, plain and simple. dont agree? read the OT and read about all the times Isreal decided to do their own thing.

and the fact is that it existed long before the protestant translations were even a thought,

im not sure what you mean by "protestant translation"

and it produced 100s of saints and will contin ue to do so just like it does with communion,

no offense, but anyone can declare anyone a saint, that doesnt mean that they actually are.

and what you fail to realize is that Jesus came as a servant and he acted that way, which is why he prayed to God.

consider this, jesus is actually the SON of God (i think the bible mentions this a few times but im not sure). being the son of god, he is a distinct person, with his own personality and all. this would explain why jesus is a servant and why he prayed to god.

He is God in the flesh, and this is implanted on our bodies, and at death when god shows you why our boides are contructed like this you will see what I mean, but until then you can believe what you will.

i dont need to wait until death for god to show me the truth. god has already shown me and everyone else the truth in the pages of the bible.

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
again, no understanding defiles souls, and this is what athiest do, I don't understand why Miraim you would do this.

the trinity is a lack of understanding.

john 17:3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

coming to an understanding of god is vital to receiving everlasting life. if a person is hanging on to a babylonish doctrine, twisting scriptures to fit it when the bible plainly says something else, how can that person claim to love truth?

i do this because i love you. because it pains me to see people tangled in a web of lies.

serving god is hard enough, but not having the correct foundation when doing it makes it impossible. that foundation should be the bible.

Originally posted by jmdewey60
Right! Anything we think about how God should be, will not change how God really is. My point is that if you have several different religious organizations, each offering their own version of the God nature, why should we blindly accept any of them? Why could we not read the Bible and come up with a version of our own that would be just as legitimate? Especially considering that at lest one of those versions (the "official" version) came out of a pagan dominated culture and was surrounded by controversy, not excluding power politics.

i see what your saying, but i dont fully agree. here's why.

1 - we shouldnt blindly except anything, even says that we should search for the truth and test it to see if its really so. i believe this point we agree on

2 - if you get a group of people with pure motives, who read the bible and are able to discern the truth of matters, then it would be logical that they would agree. it wouldnt be dependent on individual interpretation.

I do think we need to keep our beliefs consistent with the Bible, otherwise, we have no firm anchor to keep us from drifting into all sorts of errors.

i agree with this point 100 %

I do not want to wear you down with some non-essential arguments.

dont worry it lol

First, I need to see if I understand what you are saying: It looks like you are saying that the Bible clearly describes the Nature of God, and that it also describes Jesus' nature as being different from that.
I think you are also saying God and Jesus are separate individuals.
If I correctly understand these as being your points, I would agree with you.

First you have god. his name is Jehovah (or Yahweh depending on if you prefer english or hebrew). the name in itself is found all over the bible, more than 7000 times in the original transcripts. GOD (Jehovah) had no beginning because he created all things (rev 4:11; job 36:26; dan 7:9,13; rev 15:3). GOD cannot die (hab 1:12; jer 10:10; psalms 90:2; 1ti 1:17). GOD is a spirit (john 4:24). no man can see GOD and live (john 1:18). GOD sees everything (heb 4:13; proverbs 15:3)

the nature of Jesus. Jesus had a pre-human existance (john 3:13; 6:38, 62; 8:23, 42, 58). Jesus was with god from the beginning of god's creative works (john 1:1). Jesus exists because of the father (john 6:56-57) Jesus was not only created, but is the firstborn of all creation or first thing created (col 1:15; rev 1:1 along with 3:14). Jesus helped god create everything (gen 1:26; col 1:15-17). Jesus, as GOD's son is heir of all things (heb 1:2). Jesus is wisdom personified (prov 8:22-31).

include this with countless scriptures that show jesus praying to god, jesus admitting inferiority to god, jesus talking about doing god's will not his, it paints a clear picture that Jesus is not GOD (Jehovah) but rather his son.

I didnt put this in here to argue with you, but more for everyone in this thread

What I was trying to say in my earlier posts is that it is possible to believe in a trinity, without believing in the Trinity. I would use it in the most broad sense of the meaning of the word. It is hard to deny that there are three different things or individuals who belong to their own grouping, and so, could be considered a trinity.

but why? the bible does not call them a "trinity". the only reason i can see for someone to hold on to that classification is to either a] hold on to pagan beliefs or b] cater to those who hold on to pagan beliefs.

2 corinth 6:15 Or what harmony has Christ with Belial, or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? 16 Or what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; just as God said, “I WILL DWELL IN THEM AND WALK AMONG THEM; AND I WILL BE THEIR GOD, AND THEY SHALL BE MY PEOPLE. 17 “Therefore, COME OUT FROM THEIR MIDST AND BE SEPARATE,” says the Lord. “AND DO NOT TOUCH WHAT IS UNCLEAN; And I will welcome you.

include this with countless scriptures that show jesus praying to god, jesus admitting inferiority to god, jesus talking about doing god's will not his, it paints a clear picture that Jesus is not GOD (Jehovah) but rather his son.



Wow you lierally are missing what I am saying.

God came as a servvant, this is why he was praying to the father. He is a seperate person from God but the same thing. And he never admitted inferiority to god, that's just not true as I already pointed out. It's like you guys can't comprehend right.

Thomas called him Lord and God, he called himself God and the messiah as I pointed out, and he is literally God which the scripture points out.

every single denomination believes this and have since the church began except muslims. So Miraim is no diffferent then a Muslim minded woman.


I cannot wait for you souls at the death bed, when you meet him face to face, he will show you what I'm trying to explain in here and I hope you believe it then.

coming to an understanding of god is vital to receiving everlasting life. if a person is hanging on to a babylonish doctrine, twisting scriptures to fit it when the bible plainly says something else, how can that person claim to love truth?

i do this because i love you. because it pains me to see people tangled in a web of lies.




No that's not true. It's a web of lies to you and ofcourse your protestant friends will agree on here with that. God gave the church the ability to loose and bind things on Earth, and this is why we shouldn't have personal interpretation which has led to 3,000 more churches all divided against themself with truth.

so what Miraim makes you interpretation better then theirs? And how is yours difinitevly.

Many saints seen God in his glory and worked countless miracles 300 years before the catholic church put that same bible together you use.

This is the church of Christ, and for you to call it a web of lies, is presumptious at best and truly comes from a motivational standpoint.


You look into the girl on my signatures eyes. This innocent dove who never lied in her life, I read her life story, she had the stigmata, she also worked miracles, but do you think almighty God would allow this innocent soul to live and die in a false religion when her heart only loved him?

This church has been breeding saints who worked miracles 1500 years before bible alone Christians existed.


Why would God wait 1500 years later and leave those aforesaid saints in the dust? This is common sense. And mark my words Miraim. I see you live in Spain, your country is not far from portugal, which means that area will perserve the catholic faith until even after the antichrist as many saints and Mary herslef predicted.

You are in a good area and I wish I was out of USA. But mark my words. The church will be rebuilt and God will bring back holy communion as Malachias predcited and Daniel predicted the antichrist woul take away our continual sacrafice.

The gates of hell will not prevail against it.



and you want to talk about the bible. God gave the hierarchy the power to interpret scriputre and create and loose things on earth. When God said baptise all creatures in the name of.....

why would he even mention baptising in the name of God, and the a prophet Jesus, and some spirit called the holy ghost whom protestants don't even consider being divine?


Why didn't God just say, baptise in the name of God?


This is what your young souls will learn soon, you are still learning, and you will learn more, but your eyes need to be opened and I truly hope ZGod does it with you and all the rest of my protestant brothers here before antichrist comes.




" I love you "

and I love you too death too, but I will never renounce my Catholic faith, ever. I know what Ive felt from communion, I know it. i used to be protestant too, and I do believe in the eucharistic miracles which scientists have tested and that just confirms what Ive felt communion do to my soul.


I couldn't deny this faith hopefully with a gun pointed to my head.



God bless you guys.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by JesusisTruth]

[edit on 27-10-2008 by JesusisTruth]

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
God came as a servvant, this is why he was praying to the father. He is a seperate person from God but the same thing. And he never admitted inferiority to god, that's just not true as I already pointed out. It's like you guys can't comprehend right.

actually, its more like you cant read.

john 13:16 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord; neither he that is sent greater than he that sent him.

john 14:[28] Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

even through it was originally written in greek, it is in plain english for you to understand

Thomas called him Lord and God, he called himself God and the messiah as I pointed out, and he is literally God which the scripture points out.

2 cor 4:[4] In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

satan is referred to as a god, is he part of the trinity too?

every single denomination believes this and have since the church began except muslims. So Miraim is no diffferent then a Muslim minded woman.

lol, what?!

I cannot wait for you souls at the death bed, when you meet him face to face, he will show you what I'm trying to explain in here and I hope you believe it then.

you just cant wait for me to die can you? you think thats when god reveals it all. but eccl 9:5,10 says that the dead dont think.

its like god is sitting next to you with this big bull horn but you just wont listen. you keep telling me that ill find out when i die, but you cant fight me scripture for scripture can you? it's because the trinity is not biblical. you can form theories on how God/Jesus could pray to himself, but it stills brings you back to the inescapable fact that they are 2 separate people

Originally posted by JesusisTruth
No that's not true. It's a web of lies to you and ofcourse your protestant friends will agree on here with that. God gave the church the ability to loose and bind things on Earth, and this is why we shouldn't have personal interpretation which has led to 3,000 more churches all divided against themself with truth.

so which is it? am i muslim or protestant?

so what Miraim makes you interpretation better then theirs? And how is yours difinitevly.

because i can back it up with scripture, and i can do so in a way that doesnt require twisting. the trinity is a pagan doctrine. it is not christian. it was adapted later. the scripture themselves point to jesus and god being separate people.

why is that offensive to you?

Many saints seen God in his glory and worked countless miracles 300 years before the catholic church put that same bible together you use.

i use the king james when i quote on this site. do you prefer i use another?

This is the church of Christ, and for you to call it a web of lies, is presumptious at best and truly comes from a motivational standpoint.

it's not the church of christ, if it was, then they would be followers of christ. instead they are followers of themselves, making whatever doctrine suits them, adopting whatever customs that will keep the contribution box full.

all one has to do is look at the scriptures honestly, and you will find that the church does not follow it.

You look into the girl on my signatures eyes. This innocent dove who never lied in her life, I read her life story, she had the stigmata, she also worked miracles, but do you think almighty God would allow this innocent soul to live and die in a false religion when her heart only loved him?

faith is more than an emotion. satan can do alot with emotion.

matt 24:[24] For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

matt 7:[20] Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
[21] Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
[22] Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[23] And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

if that girl, no matter how wonderful she seemed, continued to propagate false teachings even after reading the bible, then i would say that its not god who allowed her live and die in false religion, but she, herself who abandoned god.

you place so much faith in miracles and wonders, yet you ignore what the bible says in plain language. you have faith, which is wonderful, but your proving false to its power. you faith is not based on an accurate knowledge of the bible. your eating up everything that the church is feeding you but your not checking it to see if its really so...

god does have an organization, but it listens to his voice and lets him dictate policy, and more importantly is not bloodguilty.

and you want to talk about the bible. God gave the hierarchy the power to interpret scriputre and create and loose things on earth. When God said baptise all creatures in the name of.....

why would he even mention baptising in the name of God, and the a prophet Jesus, and some spirit called the holy ghost whom protestants don't even consider being divine?


Why didn't God just say, baptise in the name of God?

first off, im not protestant. never was, never will be.

second, jesus is divine. a correct translation of john 1:1 says that jesus was a god. jesus is special. i just dont believe he is the same person as GOD

third, you have to acknowledge the 3 separate entities in order to get baptized. 1] you are acknowledging god as your maker and heavenly father, 2] you acknowledge that jesus was sent by god to undo our sin, and 3] you acknowledge that you will live no longer for yourself but according to god's will, you will live in harmony with the holy spirit.

so no it doesnt mean they are one. in fact, if they were, why doesnt it simply say "in the name of god?"

and I love you too death too, but I will never renounce my Catholic faith, ever. I know what Ive felt from communion, I know it. i used to be protestant too, and I do believe in the eucharistic miracles which scientists have tested and that just confirms what Ive felt communion do to my soul.

just remember, satan performs miracles too.

2 thess 2:9] Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,

Man I just don't believe in trinity. There is too much scripture to point to Jesus being the Son of God than there is any scripture to point to Jesus being God. I bet that you grow up in a church. First dont get me wrong. God is all powerful if he wanted to put himself in three forms, so what he can do that. The question is if he really did that???

For one you don't really use scripture to back up your claims. And the one scripture that gets close to saying Jesus being God is John 1 which doesn't say anything about the holy ghost. Nothing. You said it does but it doesn't you cant just put words in the bible mouth. Read it if you don't believe me.

Come on man Jesus praying should prove it too you. Jesus calling God is own God and father should prove it too you. Jesus saying God is greater than him. (o let me guess you will ignore that one too) Jesus saying that he came to do God's will. ( o ignore this one too) You said that Jesus came as a servant and is God. So let me get this straight. God comes as a servant but who does he serve??? himself?????? Come on man Jesus own baptism should prove it to you. Jesus on earth is underwater what happens???? God's spirit (which Jesus would not need if he was God) descends on Jesus.

And here the biggest clue to who Jesus really is straight out of God's mouth what does God in heaven say

THIS IS MY SON WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED!!!!!!!!!!! Let me repeat that one of you so that you might understand it!!

God said "THIS IS MY SON WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED" Was that not good enough for you. Was that hard to understand. maybe Mirian here can clear it up for you.

And yet you still go against the truth. The truth is Jesus is the son of God with all power in heaven. The truth is Jesus is like a God. But is not God. Jesus is even worthy to be worship and is divine. Revelation chapter 4-5 proves this. God sits on a throne holding the scroll of seven seals (now showing that God has a body) Its says he sits and in his right hand (showing God had a hand and is not just a spirit) Jesus comes and takes the scroll out of God's hands and later 24 elders get down on there knees and worship God and Jesus.

Again I have to say there is many (a whole lot in fact) of scripture that destroys the even thought process of trinity. And you even ignore the very word from God.

Did you not know that Satan deceive the very elect??? How do you think he does this?????? He does it by changing the very beliefs system of the truth. The trinity is a mystery where does the bible or Jesus say there is a mystery?? fake and lies that is what it is. A wrong belief instill by Satan I believe.

I look at Jesus like this. Jesus is the perfect manifestation of God, like almost a twin and yet different. God and Jesus had two different lives. Jesus is God's own personal son. Jesus is so much like God is not funny and yet they are different. Not only does Jesus have being God's actually off spring, Jesus has God's spirit making him more one with God. God and Jesus are defiantly one and yet they are separate. What God wants done Jesus takes care off. Jesus is God right hand man. Jesus is basically God's hand in all things. I just wish and pray that you don't blind yourself from the truth of Jesus being God's Son.

Again I have said this before. You cant be the Father if you are the Son, nor can the son be the Father if he is the son!!!!!

Now please don't get me wrong I am not saying that you are not saved for that is not my position or right. The very belief in God and Jesus alone is what saves you. I Just know that the bible teaches us that Satan deceives the very elect?? Which means he deceives the very ones that truthful believe in God and the word. And he deceives most of the world. And we know that the bible is the word of God which God protects. So the only way Satan can deceive true Christianity is by belief!!! OR changing the truth outside the bible. And I believe that trinity is the perfect illusion of Satan. I do believe that God knows the pure soul. There are people out there that believe in God and Jesus with all there hearts and believe in trinity and are saved. I could be wrong. But God's will is God's will. And I wont question it.

And heres the biggest question Jesusisthetruth what is more important what God wants or what you beliefs want. What is more important what God wants or what your Catholics beliefs are?????? Its just a question!!!!!

Miriam if you can give some time what are your thoughts on what I have said just carious????

God bless and Go with God's spirit

[edit on 27-10-2008 by slymattb]

reply to post by miriam0566

(why?) the bible does not call them a "trinity". the only reason i can see for someone to hold on to that classification is to either a] hold on to pagan beliefs or b] cater to those who hold on to pagan beliefs.

The why is this, if you can humor me for a minute.
I am trying to emphasize that there are three distinct and different beings that exist all at the same time.
You can say, "There are not three Gods." but that might just go right over people's heads. The pagan ideas that were the foundation for the Trinity doctrine being developed, so many hundred years ago, may not be so influential, today. The Greeks worried about things like differentiating between the Titans and the Gods, and came up with a principle of the un-changeable nature of God. So, they ended up with the necessity of Jesus being eternally God.
Now, we have the opposite concept gaining prominence, that God can change all He wants and could be the El of the Old Testament, at one time, and Jesus at another, without any contradiction of foundational beliefs. Thinking like this can calm a person's worries of damaging a strict monotheism, but you cause other theological problems that lead to having to ignore a lot of verses in the Bible.
My answer is I have no pagan beliefs (I was raised to be as adverse to pagan symbology, as much as any J's W*, with no cross on our Bible or on the church, no Easter or religious observance of Christmas or Sunday). I do not want to cater to the old pre-Christian paganism that I do not think is as big a problem as the post-Christian paganism that is creeping into dominance, with no concerted resistance from Christians, in general.

* note: Seventh Day Adventists have almost an identical theology as J'sW's, who could be considered an off-shoot from SDA's. Both believe that Jesus existed before the Nativity, as an Archangel. Also there seems to be a sharing in the idea that God the Father existed before the Son, which is basically Arian. There are major differences in how some things are emphasized and some things are practically ignored.
Any JW's who feel I am wrong on any of this stuff, feel free to correct me.
Any SDA's who feel I am wrong on any of this stuff, feel free to correct anything I am posting.
(the biggest difference between JW and SDA is about what happens during the millennium. SDA's think all the bad people die and all the good people go to heaven for one thousand years and then come back to earth.
JW think only the 144000 go and everyone else stays here.)


[edit on 27-10-2008 by jmdewey60]

reply to post by JesusisTruth

as we see in Phillipians 2: It says he came as a sevrant but was (equal) to God.

Phillipians 2:6 is a good comparison between Jesus the Anti-Christ.

in the form of God (the divine essence is not meant: but the external self-manifesting characteristics of God, the form shining forth from His glorious essence). The divine nature had infinite BEAUTY in itself, even without any creature contemplating that beauty: that beauty was 'the form of God'; jfb.biblecommenter.com...

Lucifer of Christian myth was a cherub that would have been a sharer in this "divine brightness".
Lucifer chose to use the pride in his beauty to become a god. Jesus left that glorious state, to take the form of a servant.