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Is The Trinity Biblical?

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posted on Oct, 13 2008 @ 02:35 PM
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Many Christians cite the verse 1 John 5:7-8 as a definite proof that the Trinity is biblical.



1 John 5:7-8 (King James Version)

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.


However, there are problems with this verse. Parts of it had been added much later.

Comma Johanneum

NOTurTypical has given me this site from another thread that gives evidence that early Christians referenced this verse.
www.chick.com...

I started to research this. It will take me some time to research. I am not a bible scholar


Okay, the site claimed that Tertullian made a reference to this verse. However, one problem here. Tertullian does mention the trinity, but didn't reference to the verse.



13. Ch. 25 contains what some have seen as a reference to the disputed verse 1 John 5:7 (possible quote underlined): ... Qui tres unum sunt, non unus, quomodo dictum est, Ego et Pater unum sumus, .... ("Thus the connection of the Father in the Son, and of the Son in the Paraclete, produces three coherent Persons, who are yet distinct One from Another. These three are one [thing], not one [Person], as it is said, 'I and my Father are One,' in respect of unity of substance not singularity of number.") The verse of scripture is not normally thought to be part of the original text, and is found in no Greek MS, except one which may have been copied from the Latin. But some have seen in this chapter a reference to an ancient version of scripture that did contain it. See Elucidation III in the online translation for some more details. Souter's translation give it as a reference to 1 John 5:8.

www.tertullian.org...

I will research more on the other early Christians. Give me more time




posted on Oct, 13 2008 @ 03:04 PM
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posted on Oct, 13 2008 @ 03:26 PM
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* The reference to the three "witnesses" in heaven does not appear in a single early Greek manuscript. It was added to the Latin manuscripts, probably first in North Africa, being mentioned by Cyprian of Carthage in 258 and Augustine about the year 400.

* No Trinitarian concept could be read into the verse unless it had been previously derived from another source, especially since the text says “the Word” and not “the Son”. In other words, this passage does not teach a trinity. You would have to have been taught the Trinity from some other source, and then only when looking for supporting verses grab hold of 1 John 5:7-8.

* The passage was not known to any of the early Church Fathers, who would have had plenty of reason to quote it in their Trinitarian debates of the 4th century (for example, with the Arians), had it existed then.

* Modern Protestant and Catholic scholars and theologians readily admit that the passage is spurious, and was not a part of the original text. The verse has been rejected as a patent forgery by all competent critics, (though it was in 1897 solemnly pronounced genuine by Pope Leo XIII, in an encyclical).

* Out of the thousands of manuscripts currently extant which contain the New Testament in Greek, the disputed passage only appears in eight. The oldest known occurrence appears to be a later addition to a 10th century manuscript now in the Bodleian Library.

* The Cambridge Paragraph Bible, an edition of the King James Version published in 1873, and edited by noted textual scholar F. H. A. Scrivener, one of the translators of the English Revised Version, set the 1 John 5:7-8 passage in italics to reflect its disputed authenticity, though not all later editions retain this formatting.


www.wrestedscriptures.com...



posted on Oct, 13 2008 @ 03:56 PM
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Whew a lot of research and learning! I am going through each early christians and church fathers. Here's about Priscillian.


The earliest instance of the passage being quoted as a part of the actual text of the Epistle is in a fourth century Latin treatise entitled Liber Apologeticus (chap. 4), attributed either to the Spanish heretic Priscillian (died about 385) or to his follower Bishop Instantius. Apparently the gloss arose when the original passage was understood to symbolize the Trinity (through the mention of three witnesses; the Spirit, the water, and the blood), an interpretation which may have been written first as a marginal note that afterward found its way into the text. In the fifth century the gloss was quoted by Latin Fathers in North Africa and Italy as part of the text of the Epistle, and from the sixth century onwards it is found more and more frequently in manuscripts of the Old Latin and of the Vulgate. In these various witnesses the wording of the passage differs in several particulars. (For examples of other intrusions into the Latin text of 1 John, see 2.17; 4.3; 5.6; and 20.)


Deny Ignorance!



posted on Oct, 13 2008 @ 10:40 PM
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I am looking at the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, that was published before the Greek text of B. F. Westcott and F. J. A. Hort was first published in 1881.
It acknowledges that there was margin comments written in the Latin Vulgate text that were copied into Greek and added in to the normal Greek text.
According to the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Bible Commentary, there is a Greek commentary ( that predates the afore mentioned error), that does present an argument in favor of a mystical symbolism inferred in what is common to all the different texts. The word "three" is masculine, while the water, word, and blood are gender neutral. So those three things represent a trinity of a higher order, which is the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. So, this is the superior margin note and the one that ended up as part of the King James is inferior. It mixes the names together in a type of association that John never uses in his other writings. One specific is that no New Testament writer associates the "Word" with the "Father". They always associate "the Son" with "the Father".


[edit on 14-10-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 02:35 AM
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The trintiy exist and is biblical, and further more it's literally implanted on our Torsos. The heart is on the left, Jesus sits at Gods right hand, the right side of the chest represents jesus. The belly button represents the holy Ghost which scripture says dwells in the body area. Those three points have much more meaning then you can imagine and God is revealing this at this time in history.

Now Psalms 109:1

" The Lord said to my (Lord) sit thou at my right hand "


So it was God speaking with the second person of God which is Christ, and notice he keeps saying right hand. That's the mystery he's talking about.

The heart is the left side of the chest.



Psalms 79:18


" Sit thou at my right hand "



Ok scripture says jesus is the messiah, God in the flesh. That spirit of truth talked about in John is the holy ghost.

how it works I don't know but I do believe in it.

peace.



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 09:28 AM
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reply to post by Deaf Alien
 


Deaf Alien,

Trinity was not part of any of God's Scriptures, Torah, Psalms, Gospel and the Final Testament, the Holy Qur'an. The Holy Qur'an made it clear that there is no Trinity, and that there is ONLY ONE GOD, the God preached by all of the Holy prophets from the first to the last.

4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "three". Cease! (it is) better for you! Allah is only One God. Far is it removed from His transcendent majesty that he should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

Jesus never preached Trinity, he preached God's Sovereignty and Unity, the belief in the trinity is the start of Apostasy. Whoever believes that God is one of three has clearly disbelieved according to God.

5:73 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the third of three; when there is no God save the One God. If they desist not from so saying a painful doom will fall on those of them who disbelieve.

All the Prophets sent by God has only one message to preach, that is,
" There is ONLY ONE GOD, and all Praise and Worship belongs to Him alone."

If any prophet preached anything other than this then he is a false prophet. Any teaching that turns away the worship from the ONLY TRUE GOD is the doctrine of the Devil.

The Holy Quran is the Final Testament God has sent to mankind, a light and a mercy to the Nations. It is set as guardian over all other revealed Scriptures, a watcher over it.

4:105 Lo! We reveal unto thee the Scripture with the truth, that thou mayst judge between mankind by that which Allah showeth thee. And be not thou a pleader for the treacherous.

3:64 Say: O People of the Scripture. Come to an agreement between us and you: that we shall worship none but Allah, and that we shall ascribe no partners unto Him, and that none of us shall take others for lords beside Allah. And if they turn away, then say: Bear witness that we are they who have surrendered (unto Him).

Peace!



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 10:10 AM
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The trintiy exist and is biblical, and further more it's literally implanted on our Torsos. The heart is on the left, Jesus sits at Gods right hand, the right side of the chest represents jesus. The belly button represents the holy Ghost which scripture says dwells in the body area. Those three points have much more meaning then you can imagine and God is revealing this at this time in history.



The truth is there is no Trinity. Abraham has only ONE GOD, and same goes for the Patriarch, Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. Nobody preached Trinity, it is the doctrine of the Devil seeking to mislead man from the straight path.

2:130 And who forsaketh the religion of Abraham save him who befooleth himself? Verily We chose him in the world, and lo! in the Hereafter he is among the righteous.

2:132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).

2:133 Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.

Your proof of trinity above is nothing but conjecture, and conjecture can by no means take the place of truth.

10:36 Most of them follow naught but conjecture. Assuredly conjecture can by no means take the place of truth. Lo! Allah is Aware of what they do.



Now Psalms 109:1

" The Lord said to my (Lord) sit thou at my right hand "

So it was God speaking with the second person of God which is Christ, and notice he keeps saying right hand. That's the mystery he's talking about.



The verse that you quote was that of David talking in the spirit, and he is not talking about Jesus. David is talking about the Last prophet Muhammad, the heir of Abraham through his son Ishmael on whom is the true promise according to Jesus' testimony himself. This testimony was the reason why the Pharisees and High Priest wanted to crucify him, because he spoke the truth and they called him Ishmaelite.

Truly I say to you, that every prophet when he is come has borne to one nation only the mark of the mercy of God. And so their words were not extended save to that people to which they were sent. But the Messenger of God, when he shall come, God shall give to him as it were the seal of his hand, insomuch that he shall carry salvation and mercy to all the nations of the world that shall receive his doctrine. He shall come with power upon the ungodly, and shall destroy idolatry, insomuch that he shall make Satan confounded; for so promised God to Abraham, saying: "Behold, in your seed I will bless all the tribes of the earth; and as you have broken in pieces the Idols , O Abraham, even so shall your seed do."

James answered: "O master, tell us in whom this promise was made; for the Jews say "in Isaac," and the Ishmaelites say "in Ishmael;." Jesus answered: David, whose son was he, and of what lineage?" James answered: "Of Isaac; for Isaac was father of Jacob, and Jacob was father of Judah, of whose lineage is David."

Then Jesus said: "And the Messenger of God when he shall come, of what lineage will he be?" The disciples answered: "Of David." Whereupon Jesus said: "You deceive yourselves; for David in spirit calls him lord, saying thus: God said to my lord, sit you on my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool. God shall send forth your rod which shall have lordship in the midst of your enemies. If the Messenger of God whom you call Messiah were son of David, how should David call him lord? Believe me, for truly I say to you, that the promise was made in Ishmael, not in Isaac."

*** A discourse between Jesus and Nicodemus a learned scribe about the subject:

'Tell me, brother, you that are a doctor learned in the Law in whom was the promise of the Messiah made to our father Abraham? In Isaac or in Ishmael." The scribe answered: 'O master, I fear to tell you this, because of the penalty of death.' Then Jesus said: 'Brother, I am grieved that I came to eat bread in your house, since you love this present life more than God your creator; and for this cause you fear to lose your life, but fear not to lose the faith and the life eternal, which is lost when the tongue speaks contrary to that which the heart knows of the Law of God. Then the good scribe wept, and said: "O master, if I had known how to bear fruit, I should have preached many things which I have left unsaid lest sedition should be roused among the people."

Jesus answered: "You should respect neither the people, nor all the world, nor all the holy ones, nor all the angels, when it should cause offence to God. Wherefore let the whole [world] perish rather than offend God your creator, and preserve it not with sin. For sin destroys and preserves not, and God is mighty to create as many worlds as there are sands in the sea, and more."

The scribe then said: "Pardon me, O master, for I have sinned." Jesus said: "God pardon you. for against him have you sinned."
Whereupon said the scribe: I have seen an old book; written by the hand of Moses and Joshua ;(he who made the sun stand still; as you have done), servants and prophets of God, which book is the true Book of Moses. Therein is written that Ishmael is the father of Messiah, and Isaac the father of the messenger of the Messiah. And thus says the book, that Moses said: "Lord God of Israel, mighty and merciful, manifest to your servant the splendour of your glory."

Whereupon God showed him his Messenger in the arms of Ishmael, and Ishmael in the arms of Abraham. Near to Ishmael stood Isaac, in whose arms was a child, who with his finger pointed to the Messenger of God, saying: "This is he for whom God has created all things." Whereupon Moses cried out with joy: "O Ishmael, you have in your arms all the world, and paradise! Be mindful of me, God's servant, that I may find grace in God's sight by means of your son, for whom God has made the world."

Then Jesus said: "See that you never again keep back the truth, because in the faith of the Messiah God shall give salvation to men, and without it shall none be saved." And there did Jesus end his discourse.

This is the truth, by Him in whose hands is my soul. Trust in the words of God's messenger, There is ONLY ONE GOD. and be saved.



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 01:36 PM
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No Psalms 109:1 was talking about christ bcause Christ himself talks about this passage in the new testament.

All throuout the new testament Jesus says he is God, the messiah.

1 John says he is God in the flesh to visit his people.

In genesis it says.

" let us make man in our own image "


I find it funny you Muslim souls use passages from scripture yet completely deny passages like John 1..

Unreal.

peace

[edit on 14-10-2008 by JesusisTruth]



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 04:27 PM
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reply to post by queenofangels_17
 


The truth is there is no Trinity. Abraham has only ONE GOD, and same goes for the Patriarch, Moses and Jesus and Muhammad. Nobody preached Trinity, it is the doctrine of the Devil seeking to mislead man from the straight path.

You may wish this was true, to support your own religion. The fact is that there are many sons of God. We are being made His sons in Christ. We are unified in Christ, the same as Christ is unified in the Father.
We believe in a three part God because the Apostles were told to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. This was another way of saying who the God is that we are to believe in.
We are not told to believe in three gods but we believe in a God that is powerful enough to animate three distinct manifestations of Himself and, through the work of the whole, we are saved and the family of God is grown, not by a group of servants, but by begotten children.
God is not limited into being a certain thing that we can put a label on and make Him stay there. God's name is The One Who Will Be Whatever and Whoever He Decides He Will Be. If He decides to put His Spirit somewhere and have it act on its own, as an independent entity, He can. If God wants to send His Word to earth and act as an independent entity, with full free will, He can, and if the Word decides to become a man, to carry out His work here, He can.


[edit on 14-10-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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hello all

you do not need the NT to discover the more than one aspect of God

isaiah 6:8 KJV

Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

Hosea 1:7 KJV

But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.

Genesis 19:24 KJV

Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven

Zechariah 2:8-9 KJV

For thus saith the LORD of hosts; After the glory hath he sent me unto the nations which spoiled you: for he that toucheth you toucheth the apple of his eye.

For, behold, I will shake mine hand upon them, and they shall be a spoil to their servants: and ye shall know that the LORD of hosts hath sent me.

Isaiah 48:12-16 KJV This is a very good example

Hearken unto me, O Jacob and Israel, my called; I am he; I am the first, I also am the last.
Mine hand also hath laid the foundation of the earth, and my right hand hath spanned the heavens: when I call unto them, they stand up together.

All ye, assemble yourselves, and hear; which among them hath declared these things? The LORD hath loved him: he will do his pleasure on Babylon, and his arm shall be on the Chaldeans.

I, even I, have spoken; yea, I have called him: I have brought him, and he shall make his way prosperous.

Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

Here God is speaking, he defines who he is. But he also mentions a second Lord and the holy spirit

david



posted on Oct, 14 2008 @ 06:56 PM
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hello All


Cyprian (258 AD) was bishop of carthage ( which conridicts an earlier post which also stated Cyprian new of this but then goes on to say no one new before the 4th century????

Cyprian wrote the following



The Lord says, 'I and the Father are one' and likewise it is written of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 'And these three are one.


there is a grammatical issue if the Johannine comma is removed

Gregory of Nazianzus (390 AD) Theological Orientations



. . (he has not been consistent) in the way he has happened upon his terms; for after using Three in the masculine gender he adds three words which are neuter, contrary to the definitions and laws which you and your grammarians have laid down. For what is the difference between putting a masculine Three first, and then adding One and One and One in the neuter, or after a masculine One and One and One to use the Three not in the masculine but in the neuter, which you yourselves disclaim in the case of Deity?


erasmus put this into his third edition, This was later dismissed as a hoax and false but this has been refuted so the comma stands justified

Dr. Bruce Metzger The Text Of The New Testament, 291 states that H. J. de Jonge a specialist on erasmus says that the story about erasmus putting the comma in without evidence is false.

david



posted on Oct, 15 2008 @ 03:51 PM
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God bless. But for starts I dont believe that the trinity is biblical. Jesus was God son. Point blank. Jesus call God is own father. Jesus prays and worhships God. When Jesus was baptized Jesus was on earth God was in heaven. And God's spirit desends onto jesus on earth. Jesus would not need God's spirit if he was God. Then God speak himself. (this is my SON WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED) God call Jesus his own son out of his own mouth.

bread of life chapter 6 v 33 I think.

(Jesus speaking) for I came down from heaven not to do my own will but the will of him whom has sent me.

Jesus was sent to earth to do God's will. This is the biggest things to destroy the trinity belief. jesus does'nt do his own will but God's will.

Jesus say it himself (God is greater than I)

Jesus christ is the perfect manifestion of God. Jesus is devine and has all power in heaven. Jesus is like a God. He was born of virgin. As we all where a creation of God. Jesus is God Son.

When Jesus die on the cross what did he say.

MY father My father why have you (god in heaven) forsaken me (Jesus on earth)

Jesus not only calls God is own father Jesus feels that God forsake him.

you can call me a demon and not saved. You can say that I am a blastpher what you want. But the fact is I believe in God and Jesus with all my heart. And what I preach and Just said I used scripture straight out of the book. If you want me to Ill give you the scripture.

But please remember will Jesus was on earth God was in heaven. God feels that Jesus is his son. Jesus disciples say that Jesus is God's son. Remember the devil comes in many forms and even decives the very elect. God bless



posted on Oct, 16 2008 @ 12:05 AM
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reply to post by slymattb
 


But for starts I dont believe that the trinity is biblical.

It depends on how you define the word TRINITY.
"A group consisting of three closely related members. " is one.
The question could be, But are they God? The title of the thread asks if it is Biblical. Well, yes. Why? Because the Bible says the Word was with God and was God. Then it says, "Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us".
The "flesh" was the man, Jesus, as explained further in the Bible.
What we know today, as the Trinity may be way off but there is an underlying truth to the most basic concept of this. By believing in God, we believe in Jesus and by believing in Jesus, we believe in God.
There are many gods but if we believe in one that is not the father of Jesus, we are are believing incorrectly and so, are believing in a false god.
It is not necessary to subscribe to a specific formula of what exactly is the relationship between these different parts of the whole and it may be better to leave that as an unsolvable problem. The mystery that we are told to explore is the one of divinity. It is the mystery of godliness. The divinity of Jesus that we are to partake in is being good. The key to understanding God is being obedient to his instructions on how to be a righteous person.
The mystery of iniquity is what clouds our minds and makes it impossible to understand God or anything that is holy. The Holy Spirit comes to us when we accept Jesus and the Spirit of God works with our sinful spirit of our own being, to bring it into conformity with the divinity that we can see in Jesus. The Word is the Light and our corrupt spirit is full of darkness that has to be purged by the continual work of the Spirit in us, so that we can gradually see, better and more clearly, that light.
It is all in the First chapter of John. The Baptist taught repentance and turning away from evil, so that when the Light appeared, people would at least recognize it for what it is.
So, the Trinity is a hyper barrage of action by God to bring a crushing defeat of darkness for the Last Days, that started with the baptism of John and ends with the battle of the great day of God. If we are not involved in the battle between the Light and dark, in our own souls, the final battle will be our end. If we are able to vanquish darkness inside us, the great day will be a day of light, for us.


[edit on 16-10-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 16 2008 @ 11:17 AM
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" Baptise ALL creatures in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost "

from christs own mouth. this is all you need to know really, Christ knew the mystery and he knows there is a trinity and this is why he said this.



posted on Oct, 16 2008 @ 01:40 PM
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hello there

there is a good reason he said that

you said



Jesus was sent to earth to do God's will. This is the biggest things to destroy the trinity belief. jesus does'nt do his own will but God's will.



the bible says this

Hebrew 2:9 KJV

But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

here made is not created or formed it is decreased.

we are told that the word was made flesh, here Jesus decreased to the level lower than angels, i.e man

as a man he also had the feelings etc of a man and was disconnected from the father.

this is why he is doing the will of God and not that of himself the man and the will of the flesh.

david



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by jmdewey60
Because the Bible says the Word was with God and was God. Then it says, "Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us".


This is a matter of opinion. To be honest if their is any scripture to support the Jesus being God thoery I think its this one. John chapter one. But this does not support trinity.

What is trinity. God the spirit god Jesus God the holy ghost. In John chapter 1 its says nothing of the holy ghost. It only talks about Jesus and God thats its. The new testiment talk more of Jesus being a son and a follower worshiper of God. Jesus prays man the first biggest clue to which point to Jesus has a God. Jesus calls God is own father other biggest clue. Jesus says that God is greater than him, and that he comes to do God's will not his own. Not to mention that the scripture says that the word was with God, if Jesus was with God that would make him God. Jesus is God's off spring. Jesus is God's son.

Again I have said this you can be the father if you are the son like wise you cant be the son if you are the father. God bless



posted on Oct, 24 2008 @ 10:31 PM
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reply to post by slymattb
 

In John chapter 1 its says nothing of the holy ghost. It only talks about Jesus and God thats its. The new testiment talk more of Jesus being a son and a follower worshiper of God. Jesus prays man the first biggest clue to which point to Jesus has a God. Jesus calls God is own father other biggest clue. Jesus says that God is greater than him, and that he comes to do God's will not his own. Not to mention that the scripture says that the word was with God, if Jesus was with God that would make him God. Jesus is God's off spring. Jesus is God's son.

The first chapter of John does mention the Spirit. It was witnessed by the Baptist as a sign, descending and dwelling upon Jesus. God had told him that the one who he saw this happen to, would be the one who was to baptize with the Spirit.
The book of Mathew says of the origin of Jesus, "...that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost."
Luke says, "The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God."
The Word became flesh. Jesus is the flesh, from how I look at it. Somehow, The God Essence of Thought was fully in existence, within the person of Jesus. The Logos of God was with God, as the creative expression of God, at the beginning of the universe. So, in a manner of speaking, the Logos was God.
Jesus was a man and once he became aware of his being a man, took the appropriate attitude of a man, despite the fact he was God and was fully understanding of that fact. Jesus was born from a woman and was fully human, and needed to have a father. In a way, he was his own father because the Logos was in on the planning of this whole thing. Once Jesus was conceived, he was a unique entity, meaning he became an individual person.
Of course, we as mere mortals do not understand how all this happens, exactly. Jesus did know about the fact that he previously existed with God and was in a glorified state, but being human, he would have had to start out and go forward in his life, and create the person that he was as a man, just like all of us do, and he did so within the bounds of human capabilities, by restraining his divine powers.
When Jesus went back to Heaven, he was a different thing than whatever he was when he came down. He may have started out as an abstract facet of the full glorious all everything of the Godhead, but he ended up as a fully developed individual person with a status all his own and, for our benefit, a representative of the humankind of this planet.


[edit on 24-10-2008 by jmdewey60]



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 09:41 AM
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to accept the idea that the trinity is biblical would require loose definitions and "scretched" facts in order to fit the theory.

the proof texts have all been refuted here

www.belowtopsecret.com...

to say that because the 3 are mentioned together constitutes evidence is rubbish. larry, moe and curly are mentioned together all the time, does this mean they are one? tom dick and harry, what about them? seriously, think about what that claim is.

using john 1:1 to prove the trinity shows a big lack of understanding. not only is it only referring to 2 not 3 but to take the standard english translations of the scriptures as evidence shows a lack of understanding of the original greek which is actually quite clear on the matter.

what kills me about this entire concept of trinity is that most of the evidence AGAINST the trinity is found in the book of john. the very writer who wrote all three of the supposed "proof texts".

jesus said, he came not to do his will but the will of him who sent him. 2 separate people, how much clearer do you need it to be?



posted on Oct, 25 2008 @ 10:29 AM
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reply to post by miriam0566
 


to accept the idea that the trinity is biblical would require loose definitions and "scretched" facts in order to fit the theory.

I agree with that. The highly structured and codified version we are handed, has to be not accepted at its face value, and it is up to the individual to struggle through their own understanding of the relationship of Jesus with the One he calls his Father.



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