Possibly the "SADDEST" documentary ever made....

You know this how, because that is what everyone told you when you were a kid to make you feel better as you beheaded a fish? Is that how you know this? That's kind of like when you cut a chicken's head off and it's body runs around and someone says, "Oh, don't worry, that's just it's nerves." Bull#.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

[edit on 12-10-2008 by SpeakerofTruth]

An interesting documentary made about 2 years ago by the BBC - interestingly it was shown on national television in the UK , and this created a big demand for free range and organic animals . here we go :

uk.youtube.com...


in the end is not only the life of the animals affected, but the quality of your own food that can harder and harder be called food.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by sty]

Wow. Good job Pavil! I must have missed that guys post. NWO advocate much?

reply to post by PuRe EnErGy

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So I'm not allowed to argue my case but you're allowed to yell at me and assert your case? =/ That is both rude and irrational, but again, I understand your emotions regarding this topic so I don't begrudge you.

I believe you -are- misinterpreting me, sir, because I don't agree with everything you say. You say an animal can suffer, I say the same thing. I qualify that statement by saying a human's interests will almost indefinitely override an animal's interests by virtue of his being. I don't advocate wearing animal fur for fashion, but I have no moral qualms about eating an animal for nutrition. If it's raised humanely, i.e. its limited interests such as freedom of movement and shelter are provided before it is killed for my meal, then that would be ideal.

Someone else mentioned Neurology. I am training to be a doctor, I am aware of head trauma patients. Although thinking and understanding is linked to the brain, I don't think you can completely divorce it from the soul. And you lumped in empathy and moral reciprocity as a mere function of the brain. I'm sorry I don't buy into that because it is a moral action which requires a self motivated choice.

there is nothing wrong with animals... I love animals..... there delicious..

I am not trained as a doctor, however I have an interest in Neurology due my studies on Artifficial Intelligence (it was a must to study how the brain works) . Well, bad news but yes- people can loose the capacity for affection in certain brain injuries. Do they loose the soul accoring to you ?
and as someone mentioned - a dog jumpes in the water to save a kid - is that not a form of moral value?



[edit on 12-10-2008 by sty]

reply to post by sty

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Hah, "according to you."

Well, according to me, again I say no. The state of one's health has no effect whatsoever on the value of that person.

Edit: I like the analogy of a computer program and a computer programmer. If the computer program has viruses and isn't running properly, the computer programmer is still there but his will can't be expressed as fully through the program.


Edit in response to your edit: A dog attacking a bear that threatens its owner is only acting off the "pack" instinct. His owner is part of the pack and it expects that he will help fight off the bear, not run away. And there is such a thing as behavioral conditioning, I would suggest researching Pavlov's experiments if you aren't aware of them.
[edit on 12-10-2008 by Viral]

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Viral]

reply to post by Viral

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Sorry i do not seem to understand you very well. Can you define what you believe the "soul" is - and why animals would not have it?

Just one question, be as honest as you want... did you even watch the entire film? or just jump on the comment bandwagon?

I think that the whole computer programmer analogy is flawed since the programmer could fix the program.

I understand where you're coming from, but I think you need to revise your ideas about animals and their place on earth, they have pretty much the same faculties as we do, they are just organized and operate differently, everything we do, .. they do aswell, .. just differently.




how did we find out what the pack instinct was? .. did we verify it by ... asking? no..
these are assumptions humans have made based off of observation without really knowing, ... Dogs are protective, they LOVE, they care, they feel lonely, they don't do things based off of stupid human observation.. like hey I think I'll do the whole pack instinct thing right now, oh and lets do that conditioning thing, .. you know that works with humans too right? operate conditioning.




[edit on 10/12/2008 by PuRe EnErGy]

How would you rather we kill those things we eat? I always smashed the fishes head with a wrench before I "beheaded" it. Was that more humane or less? I don't think the fish liked either one IMO, but I like to eat them. There is no real "pleasant" way to kill another creature.

And as to your statement of why/how chickens run with their heads cut off, it sounds like you have to cut their head off too close, leaving part of the brain stem to have them really run for more than a minute. If you cut their head off this way they can live for quite a long time.....up to 4 years....Believe it or not! www.metacafe.com...

The twitching and running IS mainly a nerve response.

www.funtrivia.com...


answers.yahoo.com...

Right. Presume much?

I'm about to watch it as I type. But nothing will keep me from the love of eating animals, I can guarantee ya.

And oh, bitter psychological and sarcastic platitudes will not work on me so don't bother. Okay?

Unlikely, more probable it is an instinct as the dog would probably do the same to a pup in the water, human families are an extension of the Pack to a dog. You may be right, but I think my reasoning is more plausible.

However the Gorilla or Chimp that protects and comforts the injured human child is probably aware that it is not of the same species but senses a kindred relative. They are also capable of really communicating with humans via sign language.

Saying that, Chimps aren't above hunting and killing rival Chimp groups and eating their young. Too close to being human I guess................

reply to post by PuRe EnErGy

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I watched it, but does it matter? What relevance does that have to my argument? Have you read any philosophy on animal's rights, or are you being galvanized into holding your opinion because of some shocking imagery? Your question is a two-way street my friend.

I think your views are not exactly right, we're at an impasse!

Animals do not have the same faculties as we do, from a purely objective standpoint. But that's not my argument, I'm not basing anything on intelligence or IQ. And I'm sorry you don't like my computer analogy. Replace the terms with, "car" and "driver" then.


As to someone asking me what a soul is exactly, that is a difficult question. This is just something copy and pasted, but it is a nice summary. "The soul may be defined as the ultimate internal principle by which we think, feel, and will, and by which our bodies are animated. The term "mind" usually denotes this principle as the subject of our conscious states, while "soul" denotes the source of our vegetative activities as well. That our vital activities proceed from a principle capable of subsisting in itself, is the thesis of the substantiality of the soul: that this principle is not itself composite, extended, corporeal, or essentially and intrinsically dependent on the body, is the doctrine of spirituality."

reply to post by pavil

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Well, to be onest during the WW2 , when the Germans surrounded St Petesburg for one winter, there was no food supply for the Russians . This turned the population of the city into cannibalims, (it was dangerous to be a kid back then ) , but mostly they would eat the dead russian soldiers. This is how they survived one winter without food supply. I wonder if they could be classified as animals then?

[edit on 12-10-2008 by sty]

The video is not an enjoyable experience. It is an informative expose, stomach-churning, and rouses anger because of the inherent spark of empathy for life, and truly, rightly so.

If we are unable to tender empathy towards members of the animal kingdom, how are we to tender the same towards members of our own species? If we are able to cut ourselves off from the interconnection of the manifestation of consciousness - a state of condition which we share with the animal kingdom - then it should lead us to no surprise that we can display and effect the cruelty we see visited upon our own species.

There is no argument, no justification, for the perceptions unempathetic to the holocaust played out daily upon the mammals designated to be food for our guts, designated to be entertainment for our amusement, designated to be the testing bodies for our cosmetics and medicines. The barbaric treatment meted out upon animals arises from the same self-serving ego-centric nucleus that enables man to disconnect himself from his fellow man, and treat him just as barbarous.

Through irrational rationales, we psychologically inure ourselves to the viscereal sights and sounds of our violence upon ourselves and the animal kingdom. We can be better than this, and ought to be. We have the wit and the technology to decease from farming animals for both food and clothing. We have the wit and the philosophy to decease from treating each other as being alien and different, and pursuing those differences as justification for the elimination of one over the other. Our treatment of animals is central and foundationally diagnostic to the problems that we beset ourselves with, because the violence and the cruelty we visit upon them, stems from the same instincts as those we visit on ourselves. They are symptoms of disconnection from our humanity, and until we find a way to reconnect with it, we deserve the pain and suffering in which we are drowning of our own choosing.

1) Animals Procreate
2) Animals Eat
3) Animals Feel Pain
4) Animals Feel Lonely
5) Animals Get excited
6) Animals Understand loss
7) Animals Seek shelter & food
8) Animals Progress and evolve
9) Animals sweat and have pretty much the same bodily functions we do
10) Animals show/exhibit various different emotions

there's 10 I could think of off the top of my head.

I stopped reading the thread after I read the above post. I had to post my reply to this statement, and after doing so I will go back and read through the whole thread. If this has already been said then I apologize for parroting someone else and simply taking up space....


That statement, to me, is one of the most ignorant, obnoxious, unintelligent statements that any one person can make.

Allow me to explain to you why you should care about the animals......

They are living beings too. They feel pain just like you do. Ever step on a cats tail by accident? It cries out in pain. Ever see a dog get hit by a car? It cries out in pain, it may drag itself off the road in an attempt to get out of the road (just like you would if the impact did not kill you or knock you out) and it will struggle till it dies, much like I imagine you or I would.

It is not all about respecting "people". To truly respect humanity and care for one another. The first thing you must do is respect life. If you can not respect the life of another living being, how will you respect the life of another human being? You won't. You will always get stuck on the petty differences between you. Just like your opinion gets stuck on the difference between species. Human/Human...Human/Animal... it does not matter. It is LIFE.

reply to post by elysiumfire

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all animals should be set free... I dont believe in keeping pets either.. dogs and cats.. horses or even fish... and what about purina ??? taking horses and killing them for dog food.. or senior citizens.. Pathetic..

Your video, while very saddening and convincing sets of my Ignorance alarm, I realize that this video is mainly appealing to my Pathos. As I am sure many posters have already said, Humans must live, regardless of the scale of slaughter, it makes no difference whether one cow or dolphin is killed or thousands, people are still being fed.