Possibly the "SADDEST" documentary ever made....

obviously we have to kill animals for food or else humans wouldnt survive, but humans have done some despicable things to animals just to save a buck and its disgusting. We have to respect animals because we could not survive without them and we have to realize this and treat them well. We should find the most efficient, cleanest, most painless ways possible when killing animals for food I think it is the least we as humans could do to respect nature and what it provides for us. The native Indians have already figured this out.

Originally posted by checkitb4uwreckit
obviously we have to kill animals for food or else humans wouldnt survive, but humans have done some despicable things to animals just to save a buck and its disgusting. We have to respect animals because we could not survive without them and we have to realize this and treat them well. We should find the most efficient, cleanest, most painless ways possible when killing animals for food I think it is the least we as humans could do to respect nature and what it provides for us. The native Indians have already figured this out.

I don't see how this is obvious; Care to explain? Why exactly do we have to kill animals for food to survive?

I know quite a few people who do not consume meat. Are you saying that they are not surviving? I would have to disagree, in fact they pretty much radiate health and happiness.

Maybe its me, but, here is how I see it:

You either love and respect animals or you look at them as food. You can love and respect you cats, dogs, fish, hamster....etc and still want to eat the cow, pig, chicken.....etc.

Assigning human feelings to animals isn't exactly right. First of all, they are not human. We can't experience what they feel either or what they think. For all we know, they have inner monologue but we'll never know cause we arn't them. Hell, animals may think we are their pets for all we know.

2 pennies worth

Originally posted by Daedalus24
reply to post by rickyrrr

 

Nature isn't cruel.
An animal (humans exempt) never kills for pleasure or fun, and only kills for need. Take for example, a large wild cat, like a lioness (because male lions don't hunt) or a cheetah. They hunt for their prey and go straight for the neck. They ensure they have a complete kill and nothing less, and their efficiency and lethality make the methods we use in our slaughter houses look primitive.

They don't subject their prey to conditions we subject our "food" to. Not even close. Let me put it in this way; death by cheetah is much more humane than death in a slaughter house, and why is that? Because a cheetah will snap your neck and you're pretty much done when that happens, pain-free. In contrast, in a slaughter house you'd be shot at the base of the skull and you won't always die from that. Then your throat will be slit, you will bleed and you're still alive. While this is all happening, nerves will shoot out electrical impulses to your brain and that will manifest itself as pain.
Heck, even spider has the decency to numb it's prey with its venom before it gets eaten.

So, don't even compare our ways of slaughtering animals to nature's way.

You're right, the way these hyena's and lions kill is "humane"!
www.youtube.com...

I don't condone AT ALL the actions of the corporate schmoes, who's pursuit of profit makes them and their peons act like barbarians towards animals (and people!). Both sides of this issue need to stop taking the EXTREME views that are meant to divide us.

The IDEAL would be no killing, of any sort, at any time... but that's not how the world is currently set-up. We also don't have a viable alternative to omnivoration (??? is that right?!), so for the time being most of us have to include meat in our diet. So, if an animal must die for our sustenance, it should be done as quickly and efficiently as possible. Leading up to that death, animals should be CARED for and given as much peace and contentment as possible before .... well you know (good for you, good for them! Yay! Everybody happy!)

Edit to add: In reference to the poster two posts above me (maus) and the people you know who don't eat meat. The reason I said VIABLE alternative to including meat in our diet, is both practical (nutrients, etc that are rare or nonexistant in plants) and monetary (vegan diets are more expensive). I'm pretty damn poor right now, so am curious about your vegan friends. Are they 100% meat-free? What is their income level? I'm not asking to debunk you! I'm asking because more information would help others seeking to find a way to bring in a little balance.

[edit on 10/13/2008 by uberdave223]

[edit on 10/13/2008 by uberdave223]

This entire thread reminds me a great deal of religious debates that I have watched. Generally, one can tell how controversial a subject matter is by how fast the name calling begins. It started on page one here and, in my opinion, that is quite sad.

Regardless of religion or creed, we all live here on Earth. We share Earth with countless other life forms and are subject to Natural Law just as everything else is. While I may not have much in common mentally with the furry companion sitting beside me (this schnauzer is a big baby), we do share one trait in common: consciousness. For whatever reason, the consciousness of humans is more "advanced" (I shan't say better as animals tend to generally seem happier than most people I know). I can paint a painting, compose a song, solve an algebraic equation, write a story, and contemplate the nature of existence. Draco, the schnauzer, cannot...but he can feel. Draco may not have as broad of an emotional range as I do (that is another argument in itself), but he does feel. He gets happy, he gets angry, he gets sad, he grieves, he plays, he causes me no end of mischief whenever he may for no better reason than he thinks it is amusing, he becomes fearful (especially during storms), he hurts, he loves. I have that much in common with him just as I have that much in common with all the other creatures on Earth capable of a certain degree of sentience.

Nature has created an order of things. Lions eat sheep. Sheep eat grass. All creatures, save plants, require another living being as sustenance to continue their existence. The Taoist saying goes, "Deer don't give birth to ducklings and apples do not fall upward." Nothing does as it is not meant to do. There is no exception to this rule. Countless animals, including humans, die everyday. That's fact. The majority of them suffer. That's also a fact. Nature is a sadist bitch and in turn has made us in Her image. All people have a shadow of cruelty within them. That's fact. All animals do as well. Nature instilled speciesism in just about everything that walks this terra firma. An elephant is going to love its calf more than a lion cub and would kill a lion to save its child. In turn, I am going to love my children (if I ever have them) more than I do Draco. While normal human beings cannot control their emotions without years of meditation and the like, generally, we can all generally control our actions and that means that I should not treat Draco with any less respect or dignity than I accord a stranger regardless of my personal feelings. Would I kill another being ,human or not, to save my hypothetical child? Indeed, I would. Any "normal" human being would do the same, but with humans its a bit more complicated as we seem to have been endowed with a tad more cruelty than other creatures. We kill each other over anything. Food, water, the ideological institutions we have created such as money. We kill each other for sport, for sex, for pleasure, and then lie about it and say it was in the name of some higher ideal. We, as a species, regularly worship violence and bloodshed. That's why we watch football, wrestling, movies, and etc. That's why people watch movies such as "SAW" and enjoy it (myself included). We don't have to, but we do.

We, as a species, inflict untold suffering on everything around us that by far outweighs the deeds done in the name of the common good some of us uphold. We are as we made ourselves. Another poster said earlier in this thread that humans were a cancer. I agree with him in essence, but we are more of a virus than anything. We infiltrate the host, parasitically thrive off the host, manipulate the host, drain the host of its resources, and ultimately destroy the host along with ourselves. We have sinned, but that doesn't mean that we should die. It just means that we need to change before we pass the bottom rung of that particular ladder and fall into the Abyss. Change, I think we can all agree, is something humans are inherently good at ,even though we fight it every step of the way.

One can tell the temperament of a people based on how they treat their animals and handicapped. In America at least, our treatment of those two groups is appalling. The general OBJECTIVE (as in how things really are as opposed to what people think or want to believe they are) consensus can be seen in something as small as the hale and healthy person one sometimes sees parking their vehicle in a handicapped space. If that person then is caught by the Law a ticket is usually issued, but not because it serves as a punishment, but rather because the State wants more money. If we as a people truly wanted justice to be served, we would put them in another's shoes, so to speak, by binding that person's leg(s) up and forcing him or her to walk from the farthest parking space with a cane, buy their groceries or whatnot, and then walk back to their vehicle pushing a cart or carrying a bag. The sting of humiliation and extroversion works much better than a financial slap. Our attitude towards the disabled and others of our own kind is ridiculous and I do not wish to even begin on how horribly we treat those creatures we see as below us. That, is a veritable nightmare.

In essence, I agree with the posters in this thread that wrote how they cared more for fellow people than animals. Even if they are liars. For even these fellows have people for whom they feel the utmost loathing and would gladly place the life of animal above said person's. In essence, I also agree with the people who say that the welfare of animals should come before our own even though they are liars as well, for they too undoubtedly have a special someone whom they would brutally murder a puppy or a kitten for. Oxymoronic of me, no? I shall explain .One of humanities greatest, and yet most damning gifts is the gift of idealism. It allows us to envision and strive towards a better, brighter future, but at the same time allows us to lie to ourselves and others about who and what we really are and what our present condition truly is.

The truth is: we need to take care of our own problems before we focus on the problems of others. We need to "solve" the human condition before we tackle inter-species relationships as we are obviously on the road to ruin. The good thing is, however, if we "cure" ourselves, the treatment of animals and etc. will naturally follow. It's like medicine. If one has a fever caused by a bacterial infection there is generally two options: treat the symptoms or the underlying cause. If one treats the fever, you feel better for a time but eventually the fever will re-emerge, or a worse symptom will take its place. If one treats the cause, however, all is well. No more strife.

If humanity can get to the point where the word justice brings to mind something in and of itself instead of visions of judges and courtrooms full of screaming people and dollar signs, if humanity can get to the point where we see each other as an extension of ourselves, if humanity can get to the point where we treat even those we deem enemies with calm, compassionate, courtesy, if humanity can get to the point where it realizes its shortcomings instead of ignoring them...all will be well. No more poverty, no more greed, no more hate. While it is possible, it does seem improbable, but all things in existence eventually balance themselves. Even people, regardless if they realize it or not.

If we can do this, everything improves. Animal treatment, pollution, and all the other natural concerns will clear themselves up as well. Not before, but rather after humanity changes. Martin Luther King Jr. once said, "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." He was right, but what he may or may not have realized is that injustice begins in one's heart. Injustice isn't some intangible idea, its real and it exists inside you. "When one is in search of Heaven, cast not your eyes to the sky, but rather inside yourself." If you can understand those words, and change yourself, half the battle is won. If you do this not only does it affect you alone, but spreads like ripples in a pond. If a hundred do this, those ripples become waves. If a thousand, a tsunami. If a million, a storm. If a hundred million do this, a hurricane of change the likes of which has never been seen will cull this United States and spread....but it all begins with one. With you. "A journey of a thousand miles begins with but a single step."

Originally posted by uberdave223

Edit to add: In reference to the poster two posts above me (maus) and the people you know who don't eat meat. The reason I said VIABLE alternative to including meat in our diet, is both practical (nutrients, etc that are rare or nonexistant in plants) and monetary (vegan diets are more expensive). I'm pretty damn poor right now, so am curious about your vegan friends. Are they 100% meat-free? What is their income level? I'm not asking to debunk you! I'm asking because more information would help others seeking to find a way to bring in a little balance.

As I already stated, the obvious major and viable alternatives to protein from meat are protein extracted from insects and leaves, which were originally humanity's primary sources of protein.

One of the MAJOR factors contributing to the expense of that vegan diet is supply and demand. If there were a huge demand shift to vegetation vs meat, prices would change, and also the price of those grains dedicated to feeding lifestock would change in correlation with the % being sold as human food vs livestock feed.

Since humans are pretty lowsy at being proactive, the chances of these changes happening without absolute necessity are slim to none. Turning cheap food for all into expensive food for the few makes fantastic business sense, even though it is at complete odds with human development and survival.

edit: As far as a vegan diet being more expensive; I'm not a vegan, I am almost exclusively vegetarian though. While I have huge issues with the dairy and poultry industries, I will admit that they should be reformed, not eliminated.

That said, beans and rice are dirt cheap! Veggie stir-fry with rice is cheap. A huge whole grain breadbowl filled with soup is affordable.

I can feed myself large delicious meals for well under $5 a day, with an unfortunate amount of leftovers.


[edit on 13-10-2008 by maus80]

Since you asked, a few more examples:

A veggie sub, a bag of chips, and a green tea for lunch. I can make this at home, and it's very affordable.

Deep-fried zucchini, macaroni with diced tomatoes, a veggie burger, potato chips, and iced tea feels really self indulgent. This is also a very affordable meal, well under $10 to feed an average family.

Am I making my point? There are plenty of ways to save money by eliminating meat, and for as long as I've been shopping bags of frozen vegetables have been between $1-$2

The notion that it's more expensive to be a vegetarian is bunk. The notion that it's more expensive to eat healthy is also complete nonsense.

Originally posted by Frontkjemper
reply to post by Unlimitedpossibilities

 

Ah, sorry about that.

What I meant is this:

The Chinese kill dogs, cats for cheap meat, cheap hide to sell in cheap purses/wallets/shoes etc. Often skinned alive.

America (and many other countries) put pets to sleep by the usage of gas chambers, as it said in the documentary, it takes 20 minutes to die. Painfully. Just to save a few dollars.

We as humans, often leave our faithful and loving pets behind, because we either don't want them anymore, they become a hassle or because we go broke. These animals end up on the street, live a hard and often painful life.

We as humans pump cattle and sows full of chemicals, to make them grow big and juicy. So big at times, their legs break from underneith them because they can't hold up the weight.

Just so we then can sell the beef at a higher quantity / price while keeping costs down.

We slit their throats while alive, just to drain their blood, because it's cheaper that way. (And in some religions, it's law.)

We don't transport a lot of the animals we use as food humanely. They often fall over each other, breaking limbs, then cattle prodded to move out of the truck to the slaughter.



My bottom point is, we do whatever it takes, to keep costs down, despite knowing that we are causing another living breathing entity great discomfort and pain.

Peace,
FK

Okay. Good. That is what I thought you were saying. I did not want to start ranting/arguing on supposed claims/pretenses I thought you made.

Thanks.

A true animal lover.. would not even consider having a pet of any kind... its just another form of slavery... the worst offenders are horse ..dog.. and cat.. owners..

reply to post by Torsten


Sorry to point it out Torsten but the inter species relationship is embedded in the 'what's wrong with people anyway' problem solve one we solve the other ,either way everything wins ,failure to solve either is a recipe for eternal misery,the separation of us and them that you refer to is a false construct.That means it's not really there, it's all in your head . Humanity needs to wake up stop living according to the many imaginary realities that are destroying our ability to see where and what we really are . Animals don't live in false constructs of who is the superior the species they are just fellow travels trying to live and love ,and so are we

Originally posted by philjwolf
A true animal lover.. would not even consider having a pet of any kind... its just another form of slavery... the worst offenders are horse ..dog.. and cat.. owners..

You are just trying to incite people to talk about nonsense. There will most likely be 40 useless "Nuh uh!!" responses to your dribble, when people could be discussing real problems and solutions. Shame on you.

By the way, the word you were looking for in your signature is "You're"

[edit on 13-10-2008 by maus80]

I understand people using animals for food and clothing because its been on the earth for thousands of years. Cavemen, Indians, and now us. The thing that aggravates me about humanity is that we waste so much of the animal. With the cavemen, indians, aztecs, and all of the other cultures they used the hide, bones, meat, horns, everything. Now in factories (I worked for Tyson, Fresh Meats for a while) especially slaughterhouses they waste the everything but the meat on the animal. That needs to change. I have a friend that has been a vegetarian since he was 12, and he told me this, "I don't believe something should die for me to eat something that is a bit tastier than something else. People are not meant to eat meat." He explained this to me in depth about how any animal that is meant to eat meat eats it raw, humanity is the only species that must cook the meat in order not to get sick from it.

That's just my 2 cents.

Originally posted by maus80
Since you asked, a few more examples:

A veggie sub, a bag of chips, and a green tea for lunch. I can make this at home, and it's very affordable.

Deep-fried zucchini, macaroni with diced tomatoes, a veggie burger, potato chips, and iced tea feels really self indulgent. This is also a very affordable meal, well under $10 to feed an average family.

Am I making my point? There are plenty of ways to save money by eliminating meat, and for as long as I've been shopping bags of frozen vegetables have been between $1-$2

The notion that it's more expensive to be a vegetarian is bunk. The notion that it's more expensive to eat healthy is also complete nonsense.

Take out the deep fried part, and that sounds yummy.

The natural and organic food stores near me have many vegan products. Although, quite expensive, its well worth it.

One, you get to fart every five minutes from all the fiber! How great!

[edit on 13-10-2008 by Unlimitedpossibilities]

Skinning animals while they are still alive.

Exactly.

I think half the people posting here didn't even watch the video before commenting. Either that or they just failed to see the point of it.

Humanity has always relied on animals for survival. Nothing about that will change. The point is the treatment of the animals has gotten to an all time low. The vid does not say "Don't eat steak" or "Animals are people too!" It simply brings to light the unnecessary cruelty these animals are put through in their last days of living.

Look I'm not PETA advocate or animal rights activist but I chose to watch this entire video. I learned something that will stick with me always.

On another note:

Humanity as a whole is not at fault and therefore anyone who calls for the death of humanity needs to re-evaluate their own existence. At this point greed, ego, and power control much of what the world is today. These people don't harm these animals because they are evil beings. They do it for the feeling of control, the inflation of ego, or they're simply troubled in the head. I do not deserve to die because of the actions of these people.

Again I must stress the fact that this Video is not condemning humans for their use of animals for survival, it's only showing the unnecessary brutality and harm that is done to the animals in the process in todays greed, power, and ego driven world.

Please, for the sake of the sanity of this thread, watch the video or don't bother posting.

i don't get the people that complain about this. what about when you watch the discovery channel where the lions are biting the necks of zebras or snakes that swallow a mice whole? what is the difference that takes place in the wild vs. in the slaughter house? i don't see anyone complaining about the lions...

Originally posted by Torsten
The truth is: we need to take care of our own problems before we focus on the problems of others. We need to "solve" the human condition before we tackle inter-species relationships as we are obviously on the road to ruin. The good thing is, however, if we "cure" ourselves, the treatment of animals and etc. will naturally follow. It's like medicine. If one has a fever caused by a bacterial infection there is generally two options: treat the symptoms or the underlying cause. If one treats the fever, you feel better for a time but eventually the fever will re-emerge, or a worse symptom will take its place. If one treats the cause, however, all is well. No more strife.

Generally I liked both of your posts.

Our problems are the animals problems because we are one.

Root "infection" is money.

reply to post by maus80


what a joke.. real problems... and solutions... like your signature..... starve all the animals.. so people can eat the grain instead.. Pathetic....

reply to post by Grandma


Thanks for replying. I appreciate it. Not too much. You informed as to what the bible says is good and not good to eat. Quite alright.

Originally posted by Unlimitedpossibilities
Take out the deep fried part, and that sounds yummy.

The natural and organic food stores near me have many vegan products. Although, quite expensive, its well worth it.

You don't have to shop at organic food stores or buy "vegan" products that are marked as such. I'm saying it doesn't require any drastic changes and it actually costs less, if you make the switch at your good old supermarket.

I think it's better to suggest this over shopping at specialty markets, for your average consumer. Men especially generally don't like to shop at specialty stores, and families would probably be discouraged by their prices.

A lot of guys tell me it's somehow manly to eat big juicy chunks of meat, and emasculating to eat stir fry and veggie burgers and the like.

To them I point out that Clint Eastwood is a vegan, and when you compare him in his old age to Marlon Brando or John Wayne, you can see that intelligent decisions don't detract from your masculinity while the opposite may not be true.