If you have 10 masons in a room and 2 or more agree on our origin, you should kneel and thank god for witnessing a miracle more rare then the parting of the red sea.

Sorry I don't mean to sound snarky....but honestly masons debate this point and have so for hundreds of years......there is no consensus historically.

There is of course the myth, the story, which is used for moral lessons....but historically .......hard to say really many different view and arguments beyond 1700's it's all murky shady and without proven record.

Why would you cite something from Pike who I have heard yall say numerous times that HIS STUFF ISNT WHAT YOU FOLLOW ....

You cant use that as a source if you say over and over again that his stuff is not what yall believe ...
Because it is from HIS WRITEINGS that most of the negatives that is said about Masonry comes from ..He makes it pretty clear what the Intentions and the Symbols etc is all about ..and that is exactly what yall say IS NOT TRUE ..

I am not getting this at all .

I quote Pike because I like Pike...., he's a man....like me he says things that are true and wise..and he also makes mistakes....

Some masons, I assume some you have talked to had a different opinion.....I'm not them. I think Pike was a gifted writer...., and think every Mason would be better for reading Morals and Dogma....but ultimatly it's not the word of God, just the thoughts of a man......and as such you can pick and choose what you agree with and what you take exception to.

Masons arn't products out of a factory our views are diverse.

Ya know I like socrates too, but I disagree with him also.....

Einstein was a hell of a scientist, and a really crappy horrible husband and father.....

You don't have to agree with a man 100% to find wisdom in one of his writings. Also every mason on this board has a slightly different view on masonry.....we're not the borg.......if you're hoping for concensus, you'll never get it.

[edit on 15/10/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

Fork you said you and others have Studied into the Origins of Masonry .
Lets please see some of what you have studied ..so I can see it for myself .
So maybe I can understand it like you say you do ...and it would for sure clear up our misconceptions of your club ..and maybe once and for all everyone would leave yall alone about it maybe ........I mean doesnt everyone here WANT PROOF .........I am really curious about the Masons and have been for a long time ..and the digging was just for curiosity (it wasnt because I was already biased because I can assure you that I was reading BOTH SIDES so I could get facts ......no matter what ...I wanted to know .........if you have anything for me to read ...lets see it ....

{and he also makes mistakes}

Ok good at least we have a starting point..

Please tell me then in Pikes writings what you would consider mistakes ...



[edit on 15-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

LOL yes I know that most of you dont even agree on stuff (sounds alot like Christians are lol) ....

So how about just you Fork ..what did you study to find out all about Masonry ?
And what led you to want to join ?

This is a complex question.

Freemasonry like we know it the organization is at least as old as 1700......given it's state of organization it clearly was older then that by how much we can't say.

The guilds on which masonry derived go back much older....what should I say here? I could go through Crhistian Europes history. I could go back through Roman history...Egypt....hell you know one of the Sumerian Zuggurats had a cornerstone with a spike made of ivory I think (ceremonial as used one would have been wood) it had an inscription dedicating the temple to God, and asked for his providence....hell they had a copy of it on Ebay at one point.......so there were operative masons, and they were asking for God to bless their endeavors.....does that mean we're connected? Well maybe in sentiment, I seriously doubt any of our rituals or obligations in speculative masonic teachings or our various religious beliefs are at all similar to ancient sumeria.

Of course there's the Templars....clearly many of our obligations, and values are based on theirs.....but again, this is BASED. there's no proof or evidence that a dirct line from the Templars exists in masons...though many masons do beleive this and wish to beleive it....and who knows maybe it's true....but ultimately there's no proof.

My view of the origin of Freemasonry won't satisfy you, but here it is.....

thousands of years ago men were much like today. There were men who lived righteous lives, and beleived in high moral codes of conduct, and men who lived selfish hedonistic lives...Men were just as intelligent and stupid then as today, the only difference is much less was discovered, and they didn't have our body of knowledge. From time to time they would uncover truths about this world, science, arts, how to build things that would last, and theological understanding of our creator....they also saw these things get lost from time to time in war, and socail upheval. So somewhere someone decided to find other like minded men, who beleived in altruism, and duty, and honor, and family...and they said let's protect these things, and pass them on to the next generation.....

Who knows what they called themselves......and it doesn't matter....

such men have come together under many names. Pious men revrent to God, compassionate for their fellow man, and desiring to in someway protec mankinds knowledge and his grave mistakes so that future generations might learn from it.....

What names they have gone by depends on the time period and the nation....there was no conspiracy or real plan....and they shifted from one group to another.....the only constant was the integrity and virtue of the men.......and the providence of God.

I don't know that you'll like that answer...but that is the best i have for you.

Originally posted by JoshNorton

... some sort of war between different NWO factions, right?

That's how I see it. There is a battle for your eternal soul going on. The NWO is comming into existance and we are at war to determine which side will win.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by In nothing we trust]

What led me to join...? Again hard to say...maybe it was watching The Man who would be King as a child and wondering about it. Maybe it was picking up a copy of Historical Chronicals of the Illuminati and being fascinated by the idea......

Maybe it was being a cub scout.....because ultimately I think Masonry and scouts are kind of the same.....Masonry just alot more complex on the oath and duty of a man compared to that of a boy, and we don't have to do square knots......(insert cub scout conspiracy here if you wish)

Maybe it was my love of history...and especially my study of Europe and reading all it's horrible wars, and mankinds treachery to man that i could see the benefit of a group that seeked to protect certain values during dark times for future generations.

Maybe it was growing up in a Christian Elementary school that required we pray everyday, study the bible, and pledge allegence to the Flag of our Republic.

Maybe it was marrying a woman whose father was a mason that finally made me decide to go ahaead and do what I had wanted to do since I was 15.

I had no masons in my family you see....NONE.

All of these are points that led me to masonry......every other mason will have different points......ultimately we all felt that the secular world, and lifestyle is missing something.....that for all our material wealth and technology we see a value in things that men had 1000's of years ago if they so chose it......

Order vs Chaos........Civilization Vs Nature, Peace vs war.......God's will vs our Will.

There's a one word answer I could give that would be right, but saying it might be braking my obligation....each mason has to find it for himself.....and has a different path to it.

Let me add a distinction to the last post....much of what I stated could be found in a church...and that certainly would likely help lead us to living God's will.....but Masonry is for men already past that step. Ultimately once you have given yourself to the Lord, there's nothing beyond that masonry can do for your immortal soul.....

However masonry is for THIS world....for God's plans here.

I think Some people think god simply made the whole world for us...in typical man's narcisstic fashion.....

However God the cretaor has another purpose perhaps, and he made us as an instrument for that purpose. we are all tools of God working for that purpose and those that adhere to it benefit from his providence....those that don't well.......history takes care of them.........

In any case....while we're here, we fufill that obligation for God's purpose here....and masonry concerns itself with that. compassion, and love in THIS world...

However if all you did was works in Masonry.....and never had the faith in your religion......then you achieve nothing in the next life........that of course is my take as a Christian Mason. Masonry is not religion....it's a system for good men to live by here.....not for salvation....but for civilization....and ultimately that comes second to our religious obligation to God.....no mason is asked to do that ever.

mankind are builders.....what are we building? Ask God.

[edit on 15/10/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

let me address my own view on NWO's....

Order.....what is that?

What is nature?

Nature is chaos....there's the hunted, and the prey.....war...birds and rabbits know no peace...every day is a battle and death is at all corners. Only the naive human sits in a field and sees it as peaceful the creatures in it don't see it.

Wild animals know only war....war is the natural state of this world NOT peace......animals don't have peace accords, or rules.....just survival. A daily battle.

Order is mankind imposing a set of rules on that chaos, and then carving them out by a force of will, and chisel, and sword...what have you....we bring PEACE and order to chaos......where does this rule set, this idea of wrong or right come from? God....we alone among the animals were made in his image, and are born with this abstract idea "order".

So what is order? It's civilization.

we've had many, some rise some fall.......I believe the ones that do God's will have his providence....eventually they tend to forget that revrence, and then they fall, and some more righteous civilization takes their place.......

we'll fall some day, and maybe it will be soon given our current lack of decency......who knows?.....eventually someone more able will take our place.

There is no grand however secret plan by man....the secret unknown plan is by God......you couldn't with all the wealth in the world, and most intelligent men and women impose ANY order in this world without God's consent....The Bible is clear on that....

New World Order?.....there's been lots of them, there will be many more.....Only those with God's Providence will ever succeed for very long.

But the idea of a group of people sitting in some smokey room organizing the universe to their liking? That's a whole level of egocentric thinking beyond all our collective knowledge of history.....the world is too complex, there's too many variables.....there's only those following God's Plan, and those who go against it.

1) :edit: I misunderstood your point on Cyrus, so I have redited...i thought you meant the current emergence of Iran......then I watched video

I know only so much about Cyrus....on one hand I agree he was a prototype for Alexander militarily...., on the other hand the Greeks had a thriving and just civilization before he got there. i hardly think he is the source for much of their views on civilization and rights of men. I'm not sure what you're asking. Thats aid I am intrigued by that show, and it makes me want to see teh full documentary and learn more then i know about him. It's always a pleasure to learn more about history.

2) The Shrine does alot of good work and charity....as you pointed out it's symbols and rituals are recent, and largely came to be without a deeper understanding of Islam. Some say the Shrine was basically invented to have a Masonic group that could drink....(you can not drink or imbibe in a Blue Lodge, York Rite, or Scottish rite) I don't know if that's completely true, but I have to say my Shriner brothers to resemble that at times...and nothing wrong with that. Psalms does they God gave us wine o make merry the hearts of men.....within reason.... However while they accomplish much charity, their rituals are not as old as the Scottish Rite, and even less old then the older York Rite....the oldest appendent body....but as I am not a Shriner, I will not agree or disagree with any details...I only know all Shriners I know are good and trustworthy men i love, and call brother.

However do not mistake the issues with modern fanatical Islam with either shriners or even actual Muslim Masons. There are more Muslim masons then you think. Remember that Islam also is an Abrahamic tradition....it also stems from the old testiment, there are many fine and good Islamic men, who would likely be a different faith if born here. I beleive God hears all prayers directed to him, and they do pray to him...as a mason and a Christian I will not judge such men....our own church has often strayed from Christs message, and we as individuals have so even more. Yes Fantatics have seemed to have taken over that religion....but beleive it or not you know there was a time it was Muslims protecting Jews from Christians? There was a time when Muslim nations were among the most tolerant, and European nations twisted the Christian faith to do many things Christ would not approve of....so I don't beleive it is our place to judge.....Islam, but i have no problem judging Iran, or any Government or army or modern Muslim leader that spreads terror and tyranny......

You can judge actions, you can't judge hearts.

To your other points not all Christians blindly follow the church. And not all ministers blindly follow the churches theology. Most people simply do not have the time to emerse themselves in church history or even say know the Bible's history. There's less of an excuse for ministers and priests...but again.....God's Providence ultimately prevails......that is the faith you have to keep. The catholic church got out of control at one point, and many in the Christian world left it, and it lost it's power....it has in my view become more humble and often better serves the faith then many protestant churches these days...and many of them now fail.......Providence....

Just remember contrary to myth many Catholics are masons....hell many Masons are Knights of Columbus too....

the tree and fruit story applies to all here well......false prophets can be seen in what sort of living and attitude they spread....do they spread Christs love? or do they spread something else.

[edit on 15/10/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

[edit on 15/10/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

Senrak thank you .....I hope I can find some of these online to read for free ...lol ..
I noticed you have Pike on that list ...If I cant believe a word of what he says about Masons why is he on your list ? As I said before ..reading Pike is the only reason why I am even discussing this stuff with yall ...I wanted to know if yall really believed that guy or not ...Because it is his writings that give yall a bad name ...and show that the symbols etc do really mean what he says they mean and states what the main goal of the Masons are .Which is not even close to what some of you have told me you believe ...



Good morning Fork .
You know I was thinking about what you said in your posts ...and what you described what Christian Masons are all about ..and what they are trying to do in this world .
I Have gotta tell you ...after hearing it from a few Masons on this site ..
I am starting to think maybe the Masons may be more affiliated with the Dominionists ...Do you know who they are ?And have you ever read up on them ?
They believe they need to make this world a better place here on earth ..they believe they stand for Justice and Want to bring a Kingdom on Earth with them (the rightous ones supposedly) ruling things in the here and now .
They also believe that Justice and Law and the brotherhood of Dominionists will rule this world (And are now ruling it from inside politics and the Churchs) ...Which is how they plan on bringing this world to Justice once they are in complete charge ..

This post baffles me.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Look if you are all comfortable with knowing what the word of God says and doing otherwise ..then your really on your own as far as being held accountable ..just like all of us will be .

...Except no one is doing this.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
But you cant fault Noturtypical for being concerned with your souls ...and if they see a brother overtaken in a fault (which is what he is seeing) shouldnt you be thankful for him caring enough about you all to at least warn you of it ?That is in the NT and they are the words of Christ ....he is just trying to live by them ....

Unbelievable. This isn't about souls, this is about someone who enjoys castigating others and calling others sinners. You might have heard about people who did this in the bible, they were called the Pharisees, and they didn't care at all about anyone's souls. They did, however, enjoy being self-righteously indignant.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Some of you were concerned enough to come in that post about the SPace Ship ..and you voiced your concerns with them believing something that they shouldnt believe .that could be dangerous for them to believe etc .....Didnt you ? And didnt you do it for the same reasons Noturtypical is saying something to yall for ?

Invalid metaphor. The GFL hysteria was based on faith, being a member of masonry requires no faith except what you already have. The faith is not dependent on freemasonry. And no, its not really dangerous to believe it, its just silly. People have a right to be silly.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
Why would he care what yall do ?Could it be that the ONLY reason is that he cares ?
Otherwise why would he waste his time ? He wouldnt ..I know I wouldnt .

This is like arguing that those who were in charge of the Spanish Inquisition must have really cared because they put a lot of time into it - after all, if they didn't care they wouldn't do it. I assure you, the victims of the Spanish Inquisition and history beg to differ. Much like religious anti-masons, the inquisition was motivated by sourced other than God and was used as a method of control and politicking.

Originally posted by Simplynoone
I always take it is a complement when another Christian comes to me and says ...this is something that the word says you should not do and it is not so good for you to be doing it ..here is where it could lead etc ....and I see that your overtaken in it and cannot see it ....etc ..for instance alcoholism or addictions or joining a denomination that is not on the up and up ....I am glad that someone cares enough about me to tell me ..Even if I think they may be wrong ..I still at least tell them ..I do appreciate your concern ...but I am doing it anyway and I would tell them why I think it is not wrong ..or whatever .........at least Noturtypical is not one of those Christians who does not care about anything but saving himself and sitting up in a church somewhere just soaking up brownie points with God (which is what some do ) ...which they are not earning anything even though they think they are (In fact they are being selfish and seeking to save their own life ..not even concerned with anyone else ...and not going out and trying to help those who need help ..or those who do not know the Lord ..or those who have backslidden etc etc ..... ...

The problem is that hes making stuff up. No where does the word say freemasonry is not good. Your acting as if there were some gigantic body of evidence that supports these claims, when none exists. Quite a leap of logic.

And yet again, you are very gullible if you think this guy cares anything about anyone else. You must have thought the Crusades were good too, since all those good Christian men were "concerned" with savings the souls of Muslims?

Hi Lowlevel ...glad you chimed in .

I will do this a little at a time ....since you posted too much to cover in one post lol

{Unbelievable. This isn't about souls, this is about someone who enjoys castigating others and calling others sinners. You might have heard about people who did this in the bible, they were called the Pharisees, and they didn't care at all about anyone's souls. They did, however, enjoy being self-righteously indignant.}

Ok listen ..most of you Masons claim to care about mankind ..and you do everything for the good of mankind and you all say your group is all about morals and values and you all want a better more tolerant society ..(Which is what Christians and New Agers etc all want too)
Some of you have also stated that the brotherhood are men who have taken life time vows based on those ideals and have set a better standard by which to will achieve those goals etc right ?
And as Fork pointed out ...you all are trying to do your part in making that happen right here right now in this world starting with each individual Mason doing his part to achieve those goals right ?

Well doesnt it all start with TRYING TO UNDERSTAND and tolerate the New Agers (and their rituals) The Christians (and their rituals) the Islamics and (Their rituals ) etc etc ....and see them all as EQUALS (Thats what yall preach and teach in your manuals ) ....And that not any one group or organized religion can bring it all about .(Even yall say this ) ...unless it starts on the individual level it wont happen right ? Yet Masons say they are the special chosen ones who have this knowledge to make it all happen for the better through the Brotherhood ....(An Organized group of men trying to bring about a better world ) who do silly rituals (See your rituals look silly to most of us and the New Agers too ) ...

How are you personally making mankind better by looking down on their rituals (as you say we do to yours ) as silly etc ?
And how is your Masonic way any different then than the Christian way or the New Age way ..when yall have your silly rituals too and your different ideas of what is Moral or not Moral ..etc ..

Some may think your morals and values are not the same as theirs .(as you pointed out about the Christian beliefs)
So who will determine whos morals and values are the right ones that can bring about a better world ?
You Masons ? Since you claim to have THE WAY THE TRUTH AND THE LIGHT to the betterment of mankind ? How is your group (your organized Club)
Any different than the New Agers and the Christians etc etc ???
Especially after listening to some of you now for months on what you believe and what your wanting is a better world ..Doesnt that better world start with BELIEVING ALL MEN TO BE EQUAL and all beliefs to be EQUAL and all ideas of morals and values to be legit and equal ? If you look down on New Age and Christian ways then your not seeing anyone as an EQUAL are you ?

Please enlighten me on how you all plan to change things ..if you dont even start with the TOLERANCE you preach and teach etc (I know you can ask Christians the same things) and the EQUALITY you preach about mankind etc .....Most of you have double standards just like alot of Organized Religions do ....I am asking you this time though >..You personally ..Who looks down on those new agers alien watchers who are silly and the silly christians and their silliness ideas about how they can make this a better world ... etc ?

Dont you even see that at all ?
Some of the Masonic double standards are showing through in almost every other post from some of you who TOOK A VOW to the BETTERMENT OF MANKIND (As you say you did when you described to us what the meanings of those vows were in your opinion) ..

Please practice what you preach if you really want anyone to take it all serious and meaningful then you have to LIVE IT >..not just preach and teach it ...