Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Reality: Masonry is a false substitute for genuine Christian fellowship.

I agree.

Truth: Masonry never claims to be a substitute for religious fellowship.

Originally posted by LowLevelMason

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Reality: Masonry is a false substitute for genuine Christian fellowship.

I agree.

Truth: Masonry never claims to be a substitute for religious fellowship.

How sad is it then that MANY masons who claim Christ as their savior spend more time memorizing masonic things than Bible verses?

How sad is it then that many of these masons spend more time in the lodge than in their church on Sunday?

How sad is it then that these masons spend more fellowship time with their masonic brothers than their brothers in Christ?

For MANY masons who claim Christ as their savior, they devote far more time, energy, and service to the lodge than to the church and to Christ.

Let me ask you a Q...

Do you have more masonic things memorized or more Bible verses memorized?

I'd say it would be cause for concern if a mason who claims Christ has much more masonic literature memorized than the Word of God.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
How sad is it then that MANY masons who claim Christ as their savior spend more time memorizing masonic things than Bible verses?

How sad IS it? How do you know this? How MANY Masons do you know? How do YOU know how many Bible verses we know? You darned sure don't know how many I know. I read the Bible MUCH more than I read Masonic anything....and I read a lot of Masonic work!

How sad is it then that many of these masons spend more time in the lodge than in their church on Sunday?

How do YOU know how much time we spend in Lodge vs. Church? For your information, my Lodge meets once a month! Once. My church holds services twice a day; EVERY day! Four times on Sunday morning, beginning at 7 a.m., 8:30 a.m., 10 a.m. and 11:30 a.m. Then two services Sunday evening at the Campus Ministry Chapel on our local College Campus.

Personally I try to make it at LEAST three, sometimes four times a week. Once on Sunday and a couple times at 8 a.m. during the week.

Sure beats a once-a-month Lodge meeting, huh?

How sad is it then that these masons spend more fellowship time with their masonic brothers than their brothers in Christ?

How do YOU know how much time ANY of us spend with each other? Again, my Lodge meets once a month (and many times I don't make the meeting because I'm out of town) but as stated above, I'm attending the Eucharist three sometimes four times a week. Additionally I serve on several committees at my Church, as do MANY Masons. FYI

For MANY masons who claim Christ as their savior, they devote far more time, energy, and service to the lodge than to the church and to Christ.

Again, how do you know this? Did you read it somewhere? Did Bill tell you? How many Masons do YOU PERSONALLY KNOW???? And of those you personally know, how involved are you in their personal life?

Let me ask you a Q...
Do you have more masonic things memorized or more Bible verses memorized?

See above.

I'd say it would be cause for concern if a mason who claims Christ has much more masonic literature memorized than the Word of God.

Cause for concern for whom? What concern is it of yours at all? Why do you really care? That's my question. You don't know what's in another person's heart. You can't brand someone as being a hell-bound sinner because he belongs to a fraternal organization (no matter what Bill says to you on you-tube, or no matter what Anti-Masonic nonsense you "Google")

Personally, I think you need to read the Bible more...not just some select verses that make you feel "Holier than thou" There's a part in there about not judging others.

Also, when you DO decide you're holy enough to judge others, know what you're talking about. You seem to have a lot of misconstrued ideas based on lack of knowledge in general. You seem like you're trolling.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
How sad is it then that MANY masons who claim Christ as their savior spend more time memorizing masonic things than Bible verses?

This type of faculty reasoning simply astounds me. The main attack you have against freemasonry is that people spend time with the fraternity? If we lived in a world where everyone literally lived in church and we were all monks and nuns, you might have a valid point.

But we don't. Lots of Christians who are not Freemasons spend a lot of their time outside church not memorizing bible verses. They go shopping. They watch TV. They read (oh no!) fictional novels. They go to school. They go to work. None of these things are church related or have to do with memorizing bible verses.

And then most peculiarly, some of them spend LOTS of time attacking a fraternity that likes to study philosophy and do some charity. If you were being consistent with your attacks, you wouldn't be making them because you'd be memorizing bible verses in a monastery somewhere. Your line of attack on this is a complete failure my friend.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
How sad is it then that many of these masons spend more time in the lodge than in their church on Sunday?

Find me one. I have yet to find one. I've even known quite a few lodge officers - who because of their position must spend A LOT of time in the lodge - and every one I knew that was Christian still spent more time in church or studying Christian theology.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
How sad is it then that these masons spend more fellowship time with their masonic brothers than their brothers in Christ?

Same baseless accusation not founded on fact, see above.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
For MANY masons who claim Christ as their savior, they devote far more time, energy, and service to the lodge than to the church and to Christ.

For MANY Christians to who claim Christ as their savior, they devote far more time, energy, and service to bashing a fraternity of men and throwing baseless accusations than they do in church and to Christ.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
Do you have more masonic things memorized or more Bible verses memorized?

Guess what - not every mason memorizes masonic ritual. Some memorization is required to pass, after that, nothing is unless you want to be an officer. I am not a memorization person - it drives me batty - and as such I did what was required to get passed through the three degrees. I have no intention of memorizing anything else, and as such I will never be a lodge officer. And guess what - the brethren are perfectly OK with that.

Along the same lines, I also don't memorize bible verses. Why? Because rote memorization does not increase your knowledge. You can memorize the entire Bible and never understand 1 verse. And this is why the Bible never requires that it be memorized - if you want to, good for you, but memorizing Bible verses is not the key to salvation nor does it grant you any sort of higher wisdom.

But this line of logic is, again, supremely faulty. I can find quite a few Christians, including those like you who waste so much time condemning everyone, that memorize much more for school or work than they do the Bible. Why? Because they have to go to school/work 30-40 hours a week to earn a living or prepare to get a job, and they can't spend that much time in church. Will you then condemn them as well?

What a world you must live in - everyone but the monks must be morally castigated since they are not spending all their time memorizing bible verses - and even some of the monks won't pass your standards, since many never memorize a thing but decide to analyze theology instead.

Originally posted by NOTurTypical
I'd say it would be cause for concern if a mason who claims Christ has much more masonic literature memorized than the Word of God.

I'd say it would be a cause for concern if an anti-mason who claims Christ has much more anti-masonic talking points memorized than the Word of God.

[edit on 14-10-2008 by LowLevelMason]

As a Christian and a Mason, I'm always amazed at how many self proclaimed "Christians" teach a message of hate and bigotry instead of the actual message of Christ......

Most in this catagory I've met seem to desire to see suffering.....they pray more for the apocolypse then for love, understanding, or forgiveness.

False prophets clearly seen by their rotten and hateful fruit.

And as for the pentagram wig out.....Wow.....what part of it being connected to Solomon's Seal, among other things, one of God's most rightous instruments do you not understand? This is what happens when you have no real biblical training and nor historical perspective. Solomon and God's chosen people revered science and math, and gave reverence to the unlocked secrets of God's creation, such as the divine ratio....

It's not magical, it's not devil worship....it's a symbol used by a Rightious man of God, and also a symbol of math....I suppose next the symbol of Pi or a greater or lesser then sign will have some demonologist meaning.

:eye roll:

[edit on 14/10/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

If someone spreads rumor, and ideas they do not know to be true, they are doing injury to others, and their reputation, and rightly should be chastized.

I am not insulting anyone, I am calling it what it is. If I felt there was honest inquery I would respond differently. What I read was deciet, and judgement.

If you lie about my family, and speak of things i know first hand to be true, I will deffinately call you out for it, and let people know you spread lies.

The truth is not an insult.

Christ did not hesitate to call false prophets what they were and chastize them publicly.

[edit on 14/10/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

What exactly is he lieing about ?
I happen to agree with him on this ..

This Masonic brotherhood stuff is alot like the Promise Keepers (which I disagree with) and the Joels Army stuff (which I also disagree with) ...and the Monks who go off alone doing no real good for anyone but themselves (Which I disagree with as well) ...
It is an EGO thing ..and its a mammon thing and for sure a good ole boys club is also a manly ego thing .... ..It is not what Jesus said we are supposed to do .Your supposed to go out and teach the word of the Lord ...Do you do that at these brotherhood meetings to those who do not know Jesus Christ >? If not why not ? Shouldnt you be concerned for the souls of them who do not know Christ >? *THAT IS ALL IN THE WORD that we are SUPPOSED to be doing isnt it ?
the word says GO OUT AND PREACH THE GOSPEL TO ALL .....ALL ...and if your ashamed of him (dont want to tell people they need the Lord Jesus in their life .)..then he will be ashamed of you.......I sure wouldnt want that .
So yeah I step out there (like Noturtypical ) and risk getting told we are whacko and stupid and delusional and all sorts of things ..just because we are bold enough to say HEY YOU ALL NEED TO KNOW THE LORD JESUS CHRIST >...which is what the BIBLE (That you say you read) says is our ONLY GOAL ...work while it is still day ...cause the night cometh (thats what that scripture was talking about ) Jhn 9:4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
(Do you see that as a literal meaning > ? Because it is not ...it is talking about the night as in darkness is coming and apostacy will take hold and deception will be rampant and there will be a famine in the land for the word of God ..(because someday the Lord is gonna say I have had enough and he is gonna end this crap that happens on this earth and to his people and then evil will run rampant and finish its course (the Great Tribulation) ...
That isnt all in the bible you read too ?


And we are also not supposed to be go with the world into the Interfaithism (which is what Masons do when they say all you gotta do is believe in God (doesnt matter which God ) What about Jesus Christ ? There is NO OTHER WAY BY WHICH MEN CAN BE SAVED but by JESUS CHRIST ..is that not in the word really clearly ???? ..which is leading directly towards a One World Religion wouldnt you say ? Thats what the Interfaith stuff is ....


Jhn 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
Jhn 10:9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

Is there any other way to interpret that in your opinion ??
or is it correct ? and if it is then why arnt yall doing your duty in the lodges to tell those men who dont believe ? Or are you ? Is that allowed ? I bet not .
It isnt allowed in an Interfaith Church either ..In fact Jesus is the only one that cannot be taught or talked about in them because Jesus says he is the ONLY WAY ..and that OFFENDS the other ways that Interfaith stands for (which is the WIDE WAY which the word says is the path to destruction )
Mat 7:13 ¶ Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide [is] the gate, and broad [is] the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait [is] the gate, and narrow [is] the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Is that so hard to interpret >?

Are we *(You Masonic Christians ) and I even reading the same bibles ?

I think we have a miscommunication problem brother, I am speaking of NOTurTypical's post, and his video which is full of the same old bag of lies, and deceit about masonry you see all over the internet. It preaches bigotry, based on things that are not even remotely true. It is fear mongering at it's worse.

You mean perhaps someone else?

I don't see him preaching the Gospel or Christ's message....I do read deceit. I know it's deceit because the accusations I know first hand to be not true. The video is filled with causing fear base don this deceit, and thereby cause people to fear and dislike people not based on any truth about them but rather lies.

There is NOTHING in this sort of tactic that comes from Christ or the Holy Bible. accept that it very much does exmplify Christs message about false prophets....you can see their falsness by their fruit. These messages spread hatred, and distrust....their fruit is the destruction of love, and brotherhood. False prophet indeed.

[edit on 14/10/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

Look I agree that sometimes Christians can sure sound pushy ..*but some of you do as well .... ...I also believe there is a right way and a wrong way to talk with people about Christ ..
And sometimes we may not go about it the right way ..and maybe even use the wrong words and it may seem like it is condemnation ..when the intent was not.
I personally believe that Noturtypical really does mean well ..
Otherwise why would he bring it up to you when he is aware that you will come against him with anger etc ? Unless he just loves abuse which I dont think he does....

I dont even like discussing it with yall ....especially yall ..because you do react worse than most ....and many of you seem to not really know for sure what you may (Notice I said MAY) be involved in ...which is the only reason why I bother ...and the main reason why I bet Noturtypical and Adreno post to yall too .....Because you know just as I do that there very well COULD be some sinister stuff involved with the whole Masonic situation ..just like there is sinister stuff going on in our Churchs ....




[edit on 14-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

You beleive in the best of people. I respect that. However I beleive there is a danger in always painting a criminal as victim. Saying that a theif does so because he suffers from poverty. or the Murderer suffered from amomentary lapse of reason. Or excuse a liar for simply meaning well....

There are bad people in this world, and their tone, and their demeaner often does in fact show their intentions.

Forgive me, but I have seen alot of people in this world who in fact do not have good intentions, and while i do have compassion for their plight, and I do also feel bad that they will continue to miss the "point" of God's message. I also know that whiel we are taught to forgive them as individuals, we also are taught to call a lie a lie, and teach truth, and correct deceit......if you stop doing that in the name of "understanding" you encourage further disinformation and ignorance, and that ends up hurting many many people.

I'm sure some Nazi's felt they were doing the right thing and felt that Jews, and for the Matter freemasons really did need to be removed from society.

Deciet and lies not corrected can make even good men into monsters.

{same old bag of lies, and deceit about masonry you see all over the internet}

Do you have any proof that is all lies ?

Because I have dug DEEP myself into the OLD MASONIC stuff (which I have sure posted a few times on here from TEXTS written way back ..not to mention the Albert Pike Stuff) that is pretty hard to just ignore .....dont you think ?
Especially when thats where it had its beginnings ...

Like the Catholic Church had its beginnings with stuff as evil as the Inquistions ..They do not do that now ..but because of that time period they have kept ALOT of the old traditions etc and idoltry worship etc ..which makes them suspect from now on if you ask me ....
wouldnt you agree ?
couldnt it happen again since they still do alot of the same things they did then ...except burn people at the stake ..(that is about the only thing that changed) And the same spirit that started that demonination never went anywhere ..it just changed SOME of the ways they were going about doing what they have in mind ..
Because they still have a bunch of stuff they do that just is not right .
(I agree ALL CHURCHS DO ) ...which is one of the reasons why I do not go to any Church ..My church is in the bible and with like minded believers etc .
Which is CHURCH (The word says where two or more are gathered in my name there am I in the Midst of them) (Hey that means that if your gathered in the name of Interfaith then he is not in the Midst of them is he ?)

Originally posted by Simplynoone
This Masonic brotherhood stuff is alot like the Promise Keepers ...and the Monks who go off alone doing no real good for anyone but themselves

I find it odd, that after all the conversations you have had with Masons on this forum, you aver that we do 'no good for anyone but ourselves'. This is so obviously and patently untrue that it does not even require me to post evidence to the contrary owing to the fact that it is so abundantly available. It is saddening that you have chosen to ignore this reality/

It is an EGO thing ..and its a mammon thing and for sure a good ole boys club is also a manly ego thing

The majority of the charity work I perform, as well as any monetary donations I may make, are usually of the anonymous type. Even the ones that I may participate in person the only individuals who are aware of my name are my fellow Bretheren. I do not seek accolades and do not even require any type of verbal thanks. These actions are done solely for the spiritual reward which they offer and are not done to appease my ego.

..It is not what Jesus said we are supposed to do .

Reread your Bible. Particularly the part where it says to do unto others.

Your supposed to go out and teach the word of the Lord ...Do you do that at these brotherhood meetings to those who do not know Jesus Christ >? If not why not ?

A lodge business meeting has no place for religious proselytization, nor does a Maosnic degree. These are what constitutes our regular lodge conveenings.

Shouldnt you be concerned for the souls of them who do not know Christ >?

Please do not concern yourself with my soul. It is just fine for the moment, you would do more good worrying about your own.

And we are also not supposed to be go with the world into the Interfaithism (which is what Masons do when they say all you gotta do is believe in God (doesnt matter which God ) What about Jesus Christ ? There is NO OTHER WAY BY WHICH MEN CAN BE SAVED but by JESUS CHRIST

Explain that to people who are members of religions far older, and form the basis of, Christianity.

Are we *(You Masonic Christians ) and I even reading the same bibles ?

I am sure they are, but the big difference is they are not trying to beat someone severely about the head and neck with its contents as other people are certainly doing.

My Proof is my experience, and I too have like most masons dug into our history and read various opinions and lectures. Yes I can say beyond any shadow of a doubt this is full of deceit, lies, and fearmongering.

I find it hard to beleive anyoen who has read and spent time in masonic study could NOT discount such deceit.

I believe masonry needs to be defended from lies. For a long time masons simply ignored insane ramblings figuring that so many people know of the good things they had done, no one would actually buy into these vile accusations.....there was a view to just be silent and the ramblings would pass.

However a lie told often enough becomes historical record....and as I recall in our oaths we have an obligation to what our duty is when a lodge or masons name is being called into question.......is that not clearly stated? Our obligation is clear. That is my view. I'm sorry if you disagree.

I have no way of knowing for sure who on here who states they are a mason clearly is. I simply take their word for it, and treat them accordingly. However any true mason knows their obligation on point of slander of the lodge or a brother, that they know is untrue.

When you hear anyone lieing and defaming someones character, to simply remain silent and let them repeat it until people beleive it makes you an accomplice in that deceit and the harm it does, it is teh same as watching a murder, without lifting a finger to help makes you their accomplice as well.


[edit on 14/10/2008 by ForkandSpoon]

HI Agustus ..
{we do 'no good for anyone but ourselves'}

I did not say thats what YOU DO ..or what the Brotherhood does ..
You took that out of context ..
I said it is alot like what those groups do (I actually consider yall more like the Promise Keeper brotherhood and the Joels Army which is why I mentioned them first ) ..I only mentioned the Monks as the ones who do that didnt I >>.>?
Are you also a Monk ?

My point is that these groups may mean well ..but really are ego driven .
Which I do believe the Masons are (Not in the way your thinking I am meaning)
But self serving like a Church is to the Christians sometimes ..that is what I meant ..Self serving as in yall are getting something from it that you desperately need or you would not be a part of some grown mans clubs .
And I can bet most of it is that maybe your just lonely ..and thats fine .
But it is still self serving (Or at least it seems that way to me ) ...
Alot like the Promise Keepers ..they think they are KINGS of the household and Kings of the church ,..and the leaders of the Churchs etc ...(yeah so they are men lol) but they just hang out at retreats and clubs (where women have to form their own even) and just man talk ...mostly it is all an ego thing .
Now of course this is just my opinion ..and I know not all are that way ..


Look I like most of you ..and I have come to know some of you a little better ..and I do understand that some of you really are making this a good and blessed thing in your eyes ..and that is really awesome ..and it would be awesome if just even your mere presense (Having a heart such as that ) could really touch some of the real hardcore Masons who are just in this for the ego male tripping thing .......


As far as all of the Masonic stuff online that we have all read .
What about those who were Masons and left ? Are they all liars when they come out and tell things that go on ?And tell of past histories of the Masonic stuff etc .....And some of the things they observed while in it ?
Just like most of us who are leaving Churchs and telling others about some stuff that went on (Cult stuff and false teachings) are we all liars too ? And just disheartened Church goers who have a grudge ?(no ..most of us are just really concerned on whats going on there) ...and do not feel we can just stay quiet about it either ..we need to warn others in case they got sucked in and was decieved too like alot of them are ..
We cant all be liars ..and neither can all of the Masons who leave then tell ..

You say self serving.

Why is it so hard for you to beleive that a group might exist, where people beleive in altruism?.......or are you an Ayn Rand objectivist that beleives ONLY selfishness exists in all things? If so there is nothing I can say that will convince you to the contrary and this conversation is useless.

Let me share with you my HONEST opinion on Masonry.....or rather a quote from Pike, i think explains it best.

That which we say and do, if its effects last not beyond our lives, is unimportant. That which shall live when we are dead, as part of the great body of law enacted by the dead, is the only act worth doing, the only Thought worth speaking. The desire to do something that shall benefit the world, when neither praise nor obloquy will reach us where we sleep soundly in the grave, is the noblest ambition entertained by man.
-General Albert Pike.

A big part of masonry is aceepting the impermenance of this life. All of us are dying, there's only one way in and out of this world. Masons also beleive in a soul, and a creator God.

When you realize your death, lose fear of it, and simply accept it, then suddenly this world becomes quite clear. Worldly materialism loses meaning, accolades and praise also can be seen as useful ultimately as a drawing in the sand. When you accept death, and you accept the life to come, you realize our time here is short, and our purpose is to the relief and compassion for those around us.

What do we get out of it? That's the opposite question. Rather what do we NOT get out of "life", and this world is the real question. When you realize that, you realize how much time we waste on needless persuits....and so what good is living a selfish and hedonistic life? Ultimately I suppose perspective is what we get....if taking some solice and peace out of understanding our duty to God, our famlies, our communities and our fellow man is "selfish".....I guess we're guilty.