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Sharia courts set to bring Muslim law to bear in Scottish cities

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posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 01:31 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Its already been pointed out numerous times that these courts can do nothing unless both parties agree to use them, that they can only deal in civil matters, and are subject to oversight by the existing and senior legal system in Scotland.

In other words, they are exactly the same as standard arbitratory hearings in the UK, that can be held for contractural disputes in industry and sport, and also the same as the Jewish Beth Din court, which has existed for decades in the UK

In fact, UK law often defers to a representative body - thats the reason most footballers aren't jailed for common assault when they foul each other (although there have been cases where something so serious has happened that criminal charges have been bought)

So why the need to go down the scaremongering path?

I sense an agenda.

Lets deny some ignorance and stick to the facts, shall we?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 29/1008/08 by neformore]




posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 01:42 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Neformore I´m all for denying ignorance.
This case took place in a shariah court:
www.bloomberg.com...

Here are the facts about it as reported by Bloomberg:

Oct. 28 (Bloomberg) -- A 23-year-old Somali woman was stoned to death in Kismayo after being convicted of adultery in a Shariah court established by Islamists who control the southern port city, an eyewitness said.

Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow was buried in the ground up to her neck and her head covered with a black sack before she was executed yesterday, Yusuf Abdi Mohamed, a resident who attended the public event, said in a phone interview today from Kismayo, 500 kilometers (310 miles) southwest of the capital, Mogadishu.

Do you think this lady was a willing participant?
It also goes on to state that:

"Shariah courts operate under a code of Islamic principles first established in the Arab world by the Muslim prophet Muhammad in the seventh century. Adultery is banned by Shariah law."

So if adultery is illegal and punishable by being stoned to death in some shariah courts,is it not fair to speculate that geographical location may not have an adverse efffect on the sociopathic tennets inherent in the wahhabi interpretaton of abrahamic lore and texts ?

I do not think it is scaremongering to bring these issues up.



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 01:49 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Karl.

Firstly - I have to ask why you felt the need to completely re-quote a post you already made on the page before? Did you assume I didn't read it, or does it just suit your agenda to re-post it?

Let me remind you of the Terms and Conditions



1h.) Spamming: You will not post identical content, or snippets of identical content, to multiple threads in the discussion forums. You will also not create more than one thread for your topic, or create multiple "slightly different" threads for a single topic.


Secondly, I refer you to my previous post, which I'm not going to repeat, but I will point out that Somalia is not Scotland, and the law in Somalia has nothing to do with Scottish law.

What happens in Somalia has no bearing on what happens in Scotland.

So as we're discussing the topic "Sharia courts set to bring Muslim law to bear in Scottish Cities". lets stick to the law in Scotland, shall we?


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.


[edit on 29/1008/08 by neformore]



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 02:30 PM
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Originally posted by neformore
What happens in Somalia has no bearing on what happens in Scotland.
So as we're discussing the topic "Sharia courts set to bring Muslim law to bear in Scottish Cities". lets stick to the law in Scotland, shall we?


Neformore sorry I suspected you did not read my post (or at least disregarded it as fiction) due to you in no way addressing or commenting on the implications of it.

I have to strongly disagree with your opinions that Scottish shariah law has absolutely nothing to do with Somalian shariah law.
After all,they are both courts set up by and in a specific organised religious context with the same tennets and principles.

Of course in Africa and the East shariah court rulings advocate
medieval punishments such as beheadings and stoning to death (or having hands or legs cut and whippings) for seemingly trivial offences.
I´m in no way insinuating that this is what will eventually occur in Scotland but it is fair to say that these punishments (known as Hadd penalties) are drawn directly from the Koran the Muslim holy book as well as the Sunnah, which (alledgedly) are the words, example and way of life of the Prophet Muhammad.
In shariah law,all human actions are put into one of five categories obligatory, recommended, permitted, disliked and forbidden.

Im sure the penalties for infractions of the wahhabi interpreted religious code will not be as severe and sociopathic as other places on the globe but I do think Scotland should supervise and oversee these courts to ensure no sexist or inherent religious bigotry occurs on it´s soil.

As for my an agenda,it is based on equality and so I ask the question again-why should a certain group of people be afforded special treatment in any given society and what is wrong with said people just utilising the existing courts and laws like everybody else?

Cheers Karl



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 02:51 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Respectfully.

It's bad form to mod a thread in which you are a participant.



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 02:57 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Originally posted by Niall197
Respectfully.

It's bad form to mod a thread in which you are a participant.


I'm not modding the thread
If I was I personally probably would have removed the repeated post. I copy/pasted in from a word processor and optional tags were accidentally removed.

But, as its been pointed out - and rightfully so - I'll edit in the mod tags, and then its clear



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 29 2008 @ 03:12 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.




Originally posted by karl 12
I have to strongly disagree with your opinions that Scottish shariah law has absolutely nothing to do with Somalian shariah law.
After all,they are both courts set up by and in a specific organised religious context with the same tennets and principles.


Oh, really? - what other superior legal system is set up in Somalia that has clear and defined jurisiction to overule Sharia, and would have prevented the criminal killing of the woman then?



I´m in no way insinuating that this is what will eventually occur in Scotland but it is fair to say that these punishments (known as Hadd penalties) are drawn directly from the Koran the Muslim holy book as well as the Sunnah, which (alledgedly) are the words, example and way of life of the Prophet Muhammad.


See, I studied the works of a certain Josef Goebbels He like to play with words. One of his neat little tricks was something I call association by design, namely taking something that was true, and then cleverly working it into another situation so that it appeared plausible, then repeating it often using something called Parrot technique - the selected repetition of a few phrases. Its a very clever method and unless you are aware of how its done it tends to pass you by. Its used alot by people with predjudice, and those who want to subvert, and while I'm in no way implying at all that you may be one of those people, there does seem to be an awful lot of deliberate repetition going on here.



Im sure the penalties for infractions of the wahhabi interpreted religious code will not be as severe and sociopathic as other places on the globe but I do think Scotland should supervise and oversee these courts to ensure no sexist or inherent religious bigotry occurs on it´s soil.


Yes....thats been covered already. Several times, hasn't it?



As for my an agenda,it is based on equality and so I ask the question again-why should a certain group of people be afforded special treatment in any given society and what is wrong with said people just utilising the existing courts and laws like everybody else?


I suspect its because its a system that certain people are bought up in traditionally and can releate to. But... its a valid question. I'm looking for your posts on the Beth Din asking the same question, and one asking why sportsmen aren't charged with common assault for acts that happen on the field of play, but I can't seem to find them at the moment. They must be there somewhere though, because the same rules apply there and you say you have no agenda.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 11:22 AM
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Oh, really? - what other superior legal system is set up in Somalia that has clear and defined jurisiction to overule Sharia, and would have prevented the criminal killing of the woman then?

See, I studied the works of a certain Josef Goebbels He like to play with words. One of his neat little tricks was something I call association by design, namely taking something that was true, and then cleverly working it into another situation so that it appeared plausible, then repeating it often using something called Parrot technique........



Thanks for your reply-pressumptive pychobabble and acute pychological projection notwithstanding,you make an interesting point.
I think dispassionate objectivity may be an important factor when attempting to discuss this emotive topic but just going on a tirade about Goebbels isn´t going to acheive much.

With regard to your comments about Scottish shariah law differing from shariah law practised elsewhere on the planet,perhaps the crux of the problem is that,in each different country, the ´interpretation´ of abrahamic lore is solely based on the ´opinion´ of the individual religious cleric concerned.
This means there are absolutely no international standards or safeguards to oversee shariah law verdicts,rulings and punishments-in short these self ordained religious courts are ´wide open´ to abuses of power.
To just make a blanket comment about how you are sure Scottish shariah justice will be tolerant and fair sounds a bit naive.

I think the basic problem is that faithful Muslims are supposed to view sharia as the first and last word in all aspects of life.
Followers of sharia, by their very definition, cannot abide by any ruling from any other source which runs contrary to sharia.
Given sharia’s barbaric doctrine for women, family law immediately
becomes a ´soup sandwich´ under any attempt at a dual system.

Also its true that in some other countires where shariah law has been implemented,the ´council´ then goes on to invoke a ruling whereupon the strict religious law applies to all non muslims (kuffars) as well.

Heres an excerpt from an article about this practise:

barthsnotes.wordpress.com...

"JAKARTA, Indonesia (AP) — A bill proposed by lawmakers on the tsunami-ravaged Indonesian province of Aceh would impose Shariah, or Islamic law, on all non-Muslims, the military and police, a local law enforcement official said.

…”Based on the equality in law, Acehnese people have formally proposed … to apply the Islamic Shariah Law to all those residing in Aceh, including military, police and non-Muslims,” said Alyasa Abubakar, head of a local government office which enforces the Shariah on Aceh.

The bill is apparently expected to pass. The news comes a couple of months after the Deutsche Presse-Agentur warned of “Taliban-style Islamic police terrorizing Indonesia’s Aceh”:

"In the months following the tsunami, the Aceh government inexplicably began vigorously enforcing a three-year-old provincial statute on Sharia, or Islamic Law. The provincial Islamic law department was unleashed to crackdown on ‘immorality’ - alcohol, gambling, women appearing in public without headscarves or venturing out at night without a male escort.
The ‘Sharia police,’ as they are known across the province, have become a power unto themselves - uneducated, arrogant young men operating outside of any legal framework or rules, human and women’s rights activists say.
Their illegal detentions and harassment of women, intimidation of the population and violent behaviour - they’ve publicly flogged more than 135 people for various violations in the past nine months - has earned them comparisons to Adolf Hitler’s ‘Brown Shirts’ in Nazi Germany.

… One young Acehnese woman was publicly flogged for kissing her boyfriend in public, while another 23-year-old has been locked up in Acehnese jail for more than two weeks without access to an attorney after being caught drinking beer. She could be flogged up to 40 times if found guilty by a local religious court."


I´m sure when this Indonesian shariah system was set up it was also touted as ´moderate´ but then just devolved into an extremist form of brownshirt religious nazism so it is interesting (if not ironic) that you make the corelation with Goebbels.
Cheers Karl



[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 12:24 PM
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reply to post by karl 12
 


The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.


Blah blah blah....

More from the "all muslims/islamists/the koran are bad" scaremongering agenda Karl, and nothing to do with the actual issue.

Indonesia isn't Scotland. How things are done there has no bearing on how things are done in Scotland. If you think that people are going to be flogged in Scotland then I'm sorry, but you are suffering from a delusion.

These courts only cover civil matters. They will only ever cover civil matters. Can you not understand that?



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 12:37 PM
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reply to post by neformore
 


Well what a suprise-if you would have read my previous posts on this thread you would know I do not feel that way.
It quite clear you do not wish engage in constructive and honest discussion
(instead preferring to make preconceived blanket statements).
Good luck in the future.



posted on Oct, 30 2008 @ 01:09 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.





Originally posted by karl 12
Well what a suprise-if you would have read my previous posts on this thread you would know I do not feel that way.


You say it, and yet you always go back to the extremist example, and fail to acknowledge that criminal matters would be dealt with under normal scottish law.



It quite clear you do not wish engage in constructive and honest discussion
(instead preferring to make preconceived blanket statements).
Good luck in the future.


I'm all for constructive and honest discussion, but lets tinge it with realism shall we?

For the type of things you keep linking to happen in the UK, there would need to be a complete change in political will, the overthrow of the crown (the head of the Church of England) and the adopted state legal system and the death of the majority of the non-muslim population (approximately 98% of the population of the British Isles)

Not going to happen.

Good luck to you, in the future



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



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