You're totally right. Both are true solutions. Workers should get 100% of the profits. 'Capitalists' should get 0%.

Why? Because the (publicly owned) U.S. Treasury should be issuing our money NOT the private owned Fed vampires. The U.S. Treasury was intended NOT to charge any interest, in the views of many of our presidents and founding fathers:
Eustace Mullins' 'Secrets of the Federal Reserve' (free online) -- www.whale.to...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

The U.S. Revolutionary war was fought against financial vampirism. America is built on the elimination of private capital stealing public wealth.

44soulslayer: I find it very, very hard to debate such a statement.

counterterrorist: Thank you.

44 soulslayer: I find it absurd. I simply can't comprehend how someone could think that the world needs to be entirely equal and nothing should be done for profit.

CT: for you we'll make an exception. but only if you slay your own soul instead of others. okay?

44 soulslayer: Such a statement (as made by the OP) quite frankly flies in the face of meritocracy and morality.

CT: Is that a compliment or a complement?

44 soulslayer: Maybe the debate should not be whether or not capitalism is moral; but rather what should we do with people who do not believe in any form of meritocracy.

CT: that's a great idea. what does it mean? do you know what the money-issuing class is? do you know who the capitalists are: NOT YOU, YOU'RE A WAGE SLAVE!

44 soulslayer: I would propose a solution where territory would have to be allocated to each faction. Let the communists go and live in their lands while capitalists lived in theirs... similar to the USA and USSR in the 20th century.

CT: Finally, the correct solution!!! Take all the agressive people who are thieves and murderers and put them on an island! And them them suck each others ... blood. AND PUT ALL THE PEACEFUL PEOPLE ON THEIR OWN LAND. I'VE SAID THIS FOR YEARS! You see, we're both arguing exactly the same thing! Isn't that great?!

EXCEPT, as you know from watching the Sutton videos, Rockerfellor and Harriman -- the biggest capitalists, funded the communists and created communism and those capitalists also funded the nazis and the fascists. Here's the link to the videos, watch them if you dare (see below at end of this teeny weeny email:

44 soulslayer: I have no intention to debate such widespread, intrinsic fallacy.

CT: Thank god. We really respect your decision not to waste our time, 44 soulslayer!

44 soulslayer: I can only suggest that people with such wishes should be given their own land...

CT: Great! You're a true communist and socialist at heart, after all. Well, we're not communists and socialists like you are. We believe in freedom and peace for EVERYONE. Whoopee! p.s. CAPITALISM IS FASCISM.

YouTube Link

Professor Antony Sutton: Wall Street & rise of Hitler 4 talks about Wall Street supplying financing, arms & technology to USSR for Vietcong to use against U.S.A. troops; as well as U.S.A. supplying nuclear & missile technology to USS.R. during Cold War.
www.youtube.com...

remember: Antony Sutton broke these stories & as result feared for his life & went into hiding for many years. Knowledge we take for granted first put out by brave men risking their lives for our freedom, education & survival. Sutton one of first enemies of O & WO & NWO. He named names. He died about 5 years ago.

YouTube Link

Professor Antony Sutton: Wall Street & rise of Hitler 5 talks about Tri-Lateral Commission & Council on Foreign Relations as both being Rockefeller's.
www.youtube.com...

Prescott Bush & Adolph Hitler both joined Skull & Bones. Bush joined U.S.A. chapter in 1917 & Hitler joined German chapter in 1919.
see,
www.abovetopsecret.com...
G. W. Bush’s granddad, Prescott Bush joined Skull & Bones in 1917. Two years later, Adolph Hitler joined German Skull & Bones in Germany.
The full name: The Skull & Bones Order Of The Brotherhood Of Death

YouTube Link

Professor Sutton on Skull & Bones secret society 3
www.youtube.com...

YouTube Link

& Wall Street financing & supplying technology to Hitler.
Professor Antony Sutton: Wall Street & rise of Hitler 1 talks about Wall Street financing & supplying technology to Hitler & to USSR communists, from day 1.
www.youtube.com...

YouTube Link

Professor Sutton on Skull & Bones secret society 1
www.youtube.com...

YouTube Link

Professor Antony Sutton: Wall Street & rise of Hitler 2
www.youtube.com...

YouTube Link

Professor Sutton on Skull & Bones secret society 2
www.youtube.com...

YouTube Link

Professor Antony Sutton: Wall Street & rise of Hitler 3
www.youtube.com...

[edit on 13-10-2008 by counterterrorist]

I wonder what he means, by that statement. On one hand he's arguing against the private ownership of the U.S. central bank (the Fed) and on the other hand he's arguing that the private bankers that own Fed don't own 99.99 of the capital.

Oh, I think I get it. He agrees with the U.S. Presidents that agree that the U.S. Treasury (the public) should be the money-issuing body (not the privately owned Fed) AND THE U.S. SHOULD CHARGE NO INTEREST FOR MAKING LOANS! -- which is what a true capitalism would be, lending money without interest. That's all he could possibly mean.

Here are the U.S. Presidents who want the public to print and own and lend their own money to each other (via the U.S. Treasury), without avarice (interest), but to create financial freedom and eliminate financial slavery: www.abovetopsecret.com...



[edit on 13-10-2008 by counterterrorist]

Hit the nail on the head... I always feel when you state a problem, you must try to state a solution- even half assed, or uneducated one.
YOu must not only see the problem but see a possible solution.

What will we acheive when we get away from this rich/poor slavery we have been born into?

reply to post by counterterrorist

---

The base of freedom doesn't come from listed rights, it comes from having economic freedom. If you don't have economic freedom, then you can't have real freedom. You will forever be an economic slave, under the illusion that you are free(as today).

So what you think is capitalism and free markets, is anything BUT that. The reason it's been called these things is for 2 reasons. 1 to gain support from people who think capitalism is good, but don't really understand why(parrot repeaters), and the 2nd reason is to discredit and destory any notion of it being a good way of doing things with people who also don't really understand(more repeaters).

If you really care, then take a look not at the name of "capitalism" and apply the things they have done over the past 100 years, but take a look at the actual definition and principles of capitalism and see how often they have done things that go against it.

How can you have free market capitalism when you have a debt based economy for example? That goes against the very principle of it all.

Is it not common knowledge at this point that the way corruption works is you do things under another name, but do things which goes against the principles?

reply to post by muzzleflash

---

Would the "workers" (a popular socialist term) also be required to pay out of their own pockets if the business were to begin operating in the red? Would the "workers" be liable for any cash outlay instead of the business owner?

Thats one of the lamest hings I've ever heard,why would I want to run a buisness which requires working 24-7 and run the risk of going broke ,just so I can be the same as a slacker, this would create a who gives a damn attitude,everyone would think"why work hard,it does no good" atitude,not the American way

You appear to be a victim of too much education and not enough education.

You are lost in the past, lost in your thinking and overintellectualization.

Bottom line: The private owners who the interlocking directorate of the Fed OWN THE MONEY -- THEY OWN THE CAPITAL -- What don't you understand about that. That's why we own them 11 trillion dollars. Don't you get it?

The (publicly owned) U.S. Treasury should be issuing U.S. money NOT the privately owned Fed bankers. Our most recognizable presidents have argued against a privately owned central bank -- the coup d-etat by Rothschild using Warburgs as fronts was LESS THAN 100 YEARS AGO because of Rockefellor and Rothschild bribing Congress -- or, because Congress has the position as you: Bleed people dry.

How you can call yourself a constitutional scholar and at the same time advocate fractional banking and usury and theft of America's wealth by PRIVATE PRIVATE PRIVATE bankers at public expense is sacriligious, at best.

If you believe in the NWO, then say so -- you simply believe in fascism and nazism and totalitarianism NOT in a constitutional republic where financial freedom is guaranteed -- as the founding fathers stipulated -- by a publicly owned U.S. Treasury that lends money at no interest.

You do not believe in financial liberty except for bankers who YOU worship because either: you get paid by them, or have been dumbed down enough to wish financial slavery on the majority of U.S. citizens.

[edit on 17-10-2008 by counterterrorist]

I'm not sure exactly what it is you're saying.
Capitalism is defined in the dictionary as: "An economic system characterized by private or corporate ownership of capital goods, by investments that are determined by private decision, production and the distribution of goods that are determined mainly by competition in a free market." This makes no sense -- 'free market' -- nothing is free, is it? A market can't be free, it's not alive, it's an intellectualization. People are alive. People are financial slaves, people are not financially free.

So, are you arguing against monopoly?

This seems to be a very intellectual argument. The truth is the majority of the American people are in debt to private bankers who own the Fed who use fractional banking and charge us 11 trillion dollars to USE OUR OWN MONEY. If the U.S. Treasury (owned by the public) issued our own money as the constitutional founders wished, THERE WOULD BE NO PUBLIC DEBT of 11 trillion dollars, AND MONEY WOULD BE BORROWED AND LENT WITH NO INTEREST CHARGED.

A country issues money and that is the property of the citizens of that country -- UNTIL PRIVATE BANKERS succeed in dumbing everyone down enough to convince them that financial slavery is financial freedom -- really, bribe or extort or kill everyone who disagrees and install a privately owned central bank.

In the U.S., ALL BUSINESS SHOULD BE NON-PROFIT and that would take the profit out of waging war and there would be peace.

Again, you are arguing for what I say: "Take the profit out of war and there will be no war. Take the profit out of making poverty and there will be no poverty."

People-haters and money worshippers are really dumbed down to worship their oppressors.

And, dumbed-down folks can't read. For example, you missed the whole point of what a non-profit company is, didn't you? IT'S NOT THAT YOU DON'T MAKE PROFITS -- IT'S THAT YOU CAN SELL STOCK AND LET people with money profit off your labor and the labor of others just because they have money.

IT'S THE CAPITALISTS WHO ARE LAZY, THEY PROFIT ONLY FROM THE LABOR OF OTHERS.

MAKE ALL BUSINESS IN THE U.S. NONPROFIT and take the profit out of war, and there will be no war. Take the profit out of causing poverty, and there will be no poverty.

If you really worked hard, and you really believed in a constitutional republic, you'd observe the wishes of your founding fathers, who created the U.S. Treasury owned by the PUBLIC. Not owned by private bankers. THAT'S WHAT BEING AMERICAN IS, NOT WHAT YOU ADVOCATE.

Just because you may or may not lack financial compassion and financial fairness and financial justice and financial equality and YOU HAVE A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT, your stand in front of your mirror calling your understanding or lack of understanding, "lame".

Pathetic.

You must be skinhead Joe the Plumber. Totally illegal and totally dumbed down, totally in debt, owing the IRS because of FRAUD. No business license, probably no insurance, Joe is just shooting is mouth off when he's not got his hands pumping.


[edit on 17-10-2008 by counterterrorist]

Free market means free of regulation and that transactions and trade between people is free. It doesn't mean you get stuff for free.





Not exactly what you mean, but cartels, price fixing and monopolies are illegal.



This is true. But the reason the founders wanted to tie the money to gold and silver was to keep the government from inflating the money supply. Which devalues the money and robs the people of their purchasing power. Any money that is created should only be done to meet the needs of trade on the market. The fed is supposed to do that, but of course they don't. And the whole loan/interest thing is a huge scam. So we do need the government to control the currency like you say, but there has to be strict guidelines on how and when it's created as well.



This is where you lose me. #1 we need to take away the corporations rights as a individual. Corporations are soul-less beings. They should be the only ones that pay taxes. And the taxes paid should be based on profits. If it costs $5 to make a product, including labor and they charge $15 for it, then $10 of that product is taxable. And many other bad things they have changed. But can't really say "non-profit".

The profit from waging war has nothing to do with money I'm sorry to say. As you've already noted, they can create money and such as much as they want. Money is not the goal, it's the tool. Control is what war is about.

reply to post by counterterrorist

---

I am well aware of the federal reserves status, members, and unconstitutional powers.

I am talking about businesses.

Hi badmedia. You have many very intelligent arguments and I appreciate that very much.

badmedia: Free market means free of regulation and that transactions and trade between people is free. It doesn't mean you get stuff for free.

counterterrorist: It is impossible to be free of regulation. Life itself is regulated. Matter itself is regulated by law. Hence, our constitutional republic is regulated by law in an attempt to mimic God's law: that all men and women are created equal and deserve freedom. This also means financial equality and financial freedom.

badmedia: A market economy based on supply and demand with little or no government control. A completely free market is an idealized form of a market economy where buyers and sells are allowed to transact freely (i.e. buy/sell/trade) based on a mutual agreement on price without state intervention in the form of taxes, subsidies or regulation.

CT: Supply and demand is a myth, it is a definition economists use to disquise usury. Everything that is supplied and demanded is in reality a necessity or a luxury. Our Creator supplied everything we needed. He supplied us with compassion and the capacity to share -- as kindergarteners are taught and indeed, all children are taught by their mommies. Buying and selling is an abstraction used by greedy people to justify scarcity by not sharing. And we were provided intelligence and creativeness to invent and the ability to labor to create and harvest.

badmedia: ...cartels, price fixing and monopolies are illegal.

CT: The Fed itself is a monopoly on U.S. money-issuing. They own the banks that own the oil companies. No one cares if it's illegal or not.

badmedia: ...the reason the founders wanted to tie the money to gold and silver was to keep the government from inflating the money supply.

CT: Right, because the amount of gold and silver is relatively FIXED and is naturally supplied and directly tied to HUMAN LABOR. In reality, human labor produces what may euphemistically called a Gold or Silver or Oil standard.

badmedia: Any money that is created should only be done to meet the needs of trade on the market. The fed is supposed to do that, but of course they don't.

CT: So why don't we return the money-issuing power to the publicly owned U.S. Treasury -- it was stolen by Rothschild and Rockefellor using Warburgs less than 100 years ago -- and now we're all deep in debt because our fractional banking.

badmedia: And the whole loan/interest thing is a huge scam.

CT: agree

badmedia: So we do need the government to control the currency like you say, but there has to be strict guidelines on how and when it's created as well.

CT: The U.S. Treasury was CREATED to issue publicly owned, (and as far as I can ascertain based on the wishes of the founding fathers and our most-known presidents), interest free money.

CT: In the U.S., ALL BUSINESS SHOULD BE NON-PROFIT and that would take the profit out of waging war and there would be peace.

badmedia: This is where you lose me.

CT: It's the words of Smedley Butler, an America war hero AND the man chosen by Dupont/Morgan/G.M. to orchestrate a coup to install fascism and nazism in America -- but he turned them in (NOTE- the entire text is free at this website, just scroll down, the entire text is only a few pages, it is a pamphlet not a book): www.lexrex.com... He entirely spells out how the wars he fought in were private wars by Brown Brothers-Harriman and the Bush clan, to steal other countries' natural resources and wealth.

badmedia: #1 we need to take away the corporations rights as a individual. Corporations are soul-less beings. They should be the only ones that pay taxes. And the taxes paid should be based on profits. If it costs $5 to make a product, including labor and they charge $15 for it, then $10 of that product is taxable.

CT: Very brilliant. I'd suggest a 100% tax. (After all, the Fed uses fractional banking to tax each of us 90% -- because they allow the banks (that they own) to make $1 into $10, and tax it 10 times.)

CT: But how is this different from what I'm saying?

badmedia: ...can't really say "non-profit".

CT: Why. It's a legal defination. Non-profits are taxed, too. And the wages of folks who work at nonprofits are taxed exactly the same as those who work at for-profits. Issuing shares of stock is the major problem, allows lazy rich non-laborers to profit from the labor of hard-working, poor laborers.

badmedia: The profit from waging war has nothing to do with money I'm sorry to say.

CT: Well, according to Eustace Mullins, who wrote, 'The Secrets of the Federal Reserve', in 1950 ... the whole reason for the creation of the Fed by the Rothschilds and Rockefellor was to create TAXES to finance WWI for Europe, i.e. for Germany i.e. the German & non-German) bankers. Prior to the Fed, there was no IRS, it followed immediately -- free online copy of ‘Secrets of Federal Reserve’, www.whale.to...

badmedia: As you've already noted, they can create money and such as much as they want. Money is not the goal, it's the tool. Control is what war is about.

CT: Again, you're a very brilliant person and I enjoy interacting with you. I think we basically agree but appear contrasted because of our own preferences for choice of words. War is another name for economic war. Military war is another name for economic war. Economic war is won by military, conventional, non-conventional including propaganda (mind control/sheeple) tactics. WAR IS ALWAYS ECONOMIC.

I especially like the following:
badmedia: #1 we need to take away the corporations rights as a individual. Corporations are soul-less beings. They should be the only ones that pay taxes. And the taxes paid should be based on profits. If it costs $5 to make a product, including labor and they charge $15 for it, then $10 of that product is taxable.

I think it was Rockefeller who sponsored the folks who created that legislation.

Now let me take a minute to research some documentation, then I'll post this and insert the documentation into the above.

According to the debates last night, 95% of American businesses make under $200,000. They make profits. I'm saying shares of, and issuing, stock, should be illegal. Non-profits probably make more money than small business, like Stanford University and Stanford Hospital and Stanford Medical Foundation, Bill Gate's Foundation, Rockefeller's Foundations ... they all pay taxes ... they just don't issue shares.

The whole IPO process is rigged (as I believe I mentioned in my opening post).

"If this mischievous financial policy which has its origin in North American during the late war in that country, shall become endurated down to a fixture, then that Government will furnish its own money without cost. It will pay off debts and be without debt. It will have all the money necessary to carry on its commerce. It will become prosperous without precedent in the history of the world. The brains, and wealth of all countries will go to North America. That country must be destroyed or it will destroy every monarchy on the globe." ~ Hazard Circular, inserted in 1865 London Times, speaking of Lincoln's 'Greenbacks'.

reply to post by counterterrorist

---

95% of businesses make less than $200,000??????????

Could you post a credible source to back that up?

Are you implying that war & starvation & poverty only exist in countries that are capitalist?

Not at all. All I'm saying is that the concentration of wealth is most efficiently accomplished through murder and genocide and theft and extortion. Whether it's high gas prices, war in Iraq, or a gangster on the corner ripping you off. Same thing.

All the capital in the U.S. is owned and printed by the money-issuing class.

The money-issuing class is the master of the ruling class, the managerial middle class, and the working class.

The money-issuing class is private bankers that Hitler blamed for world depression and depression in Germany. Hitler blamed the Jewish bankers that financed him but Hitler never hurt even one Jewish banker. He was on their payroll. Hitler forgot to blame the non-Jewish bankers that were partners with the Jewish bankers that financed him. Also, he murdered a lot of Germans and German soldiers because he was busy concentrating wealth by theft, extortion, war and genocide.

In other words, if someone goes to the corner to score, he can get served or ripped off or shot ... you take your chances.

With capitalism, you always get ripped off and you always get shot. UNLESS you own shares of the Federal Reserve Bank ... if you do, then YOU do the ripping off and YOU do the shooting.

If you are an owner of the Federal Reserve Bank, then you are a "capitalist", because you are a member of the "money-issuing (money-printing)" class. If you can not legally print capital, then you, like 99.9999% of everyone on ATS and 99.999999999999999999% of everyone in the U.S., are in the "wage-slave" class. Slave.

"money-issuing" class vs "wage-slave" class.

If you can hop on a jet plane and fly anywhere in the world and go to the most expensive casinos every single day of your life ... then, you enjoy the benefits of the money-issuing class. And, if you can take a few people with you, or a few thousand, and it not impact your wallet ... again, you can legally print your own money and use it ... THAT is what I'm talking about.

If you have to "earn" a living, then you certainly can't print up money when ever you need it, and that makes you a wage-slave.

People in the money-issuing class DON'T have to "earn" a living. They get their wealth from charging you to use their money that they print up.

The publicly owned U.S. Treasury is supposed to print up publicly-owned money. Presidents Kennedy and Lincoln did it and were shot. President Garfield argued for it and was shot. President Jackson argued for it and survived assassination when two derringers misfired at point-blank range.


[edit on 18-10-2008 by counterterrorist]

I like to think of myself as privately contracting out my labour, as opposed to a wage-slave. That way I don't feel so much like slitting my wrists.

[edit on 18-10-2008 by RKWWWW]

me too.