The bee in my UFO believing bonnet...

OK, due to sheer logic I am an alien/UFO believer. Given the size of our universe pure logic would seem to indicate life on other planets. Given the age of our universe logic would surmise a fraction of such life would evolve intelligence and could very well be thousands or millions of years more advanced than our own. Given our own development logic would point to a fraction capable of interstellar/dimensional travel. Logically this would mean they have never stumbled upon our planet or have known about it for a very long time. If they have, they did not just show up suddenly when we have technology that allows us to dream up such. If they do know about us they could have been visiting us for thousands or even millions of years. Logic would also indicate if primitive man witnessed benevolent visitations we would have somehow incorporated them into our religious belief system. If the aliens are malevolent in intentions logic would indicate that they took advantage of the situation and may have deliberately shaped our religious systems. Should these beings have had a craft that failed on our planet , it makes perfect sense to me that our military would reverse engineer it for our own advantage and keep it secret due to the worlds ever changing arms race. That in a nutshell is what I hold dearly too myself as fact.

My fathers squadron chased a UFO. I myself have had two significant , very different sightings (not just small blinking lights). I am not screaming "alien" I do not know what I saw. If you do your research our records going back hundreds even thousands of years would seem to indicate an alien presence. I tend to want to believe we are known to others and tend to want to buy into the whole thing.

There are two things that always snap me back to disbelief. It would seem sightings generally correlate with that particular era's "popular air culture". In the 1800's to early 1900's strange airship shaped craft were reported. What was flying at that time? Airships! Later on one occasion, crescent shaped craft were reported. The witness described these crescents as skipping like saucers. Popular Pulp fiction used only "saucer" and well flew with it. What was reported for the next 30-40 years? Yup, Saucers. Now in the modernist of times we have Star trek, Close Encounters & Star wars . Now we are seemingly reporting , snapping photos and filming a variety of different more complicated craft. Where are the two cake pans glued together now? Where are the airship UFOs now? I find it hard to explain that such advance civilizations would change their designs so radically in a hundred years. Logic would seem to indicate that they would have pretty much mastered their design? Finally, (this is not meant to be funny) why don't they just turn their damn lights off???

I have honestly been dead locked on this for quite a few years now.


~Hyp

reply to post by HypnoAsp



I agree. What happened to the 'sailing ship' type, also ?

Years ago, can't remember where (may have been from a Lyall Watson or Colin Wilson book) I read about a village in England where, outside the village church, there is an ancient ship's anchor and attached section of chain. It was believed these came from a literal 'sailing' ship which had floated above the village a century or two before, over the heads of villagers who were clustered outside the church for Sunday Service.

The floating sailing ship was similar in all respects to actual ships of the day and was manned by strange humanoid figures which could be seen clearly by the villagers. Trailing below the ship was a chain and anchor.

The humanoids apparently waved to the astonished villagers, some of whom waved back. Some of the village menfolk grabbed the anchor, perhaps with the intention of capturing the ship.

At this, the ship began to rise, or perhaps the land began sloping downwards. In any event, the men were now suspended some considerable height above the ground and began yelling in fear. Many leapt free and fell to the ground, but at least one (from memory) clung on, amidst angry and fearful cries from the people below.

The humanoids then released the anchor chain and these fell to the ground. Don't remember if some villagers lost their lives or were injured. The ship floated away (in the sky) and was not seen again.

It's said that the villagers dragged the anchor and chain to the church, where it remains to this day.

So again, we have an unidentified craft which matched the era ... was something humans could identify ... and was at the time, the zenith of human technology.

If the story is correct, it left behind tangible proof of its existence in the form of anchor and chain, which dismisses suggestion that the event was fictitious or product of the 'mass hypnosis' theory used to explain multiple-witness sightings. And the author of the book in question was at pains, if i remember correctly, to point out that the church was on a hilltop, thus creating a puzzle as to why --- if the story was simple fable ---the villagers would have dedicated the considerable time and energy necessary to haul the heavy anchor and chain across land from the sea, up a hill, simply in order to place it near their church.

Hi Hypno-

" It would seem sightings generally correlate with that particular era's "popular air culture"

It was this particular point about the U.F.O.phenonomen that lead to me take a 15 year hiatus from the subject. It is a very compelling point , i recall looking at a lot of "lampshade" craft which did appear over-time to have become more aerodynamic and streamlined, mimicking human shifts in engineering.
However..
Reports of cigar-shaped crafts/lamp shade etc have not gone away , thought it seems the archetypal saucer shape is etched into our human psyche and are surely the most reported design.
Just to look at our own evolution of engineering principals over the last 100 years , there has been a tremendous variety of shapes in our crafts over a very short period of time ,from hot air balloons & gliders,or from the kitty hawk , Saturn rockets to delta winged aircraft ...... and all over what is essentially, a blip in time.
With the SR-71 Blackbird still looking technologically advanced today,as well as damn sexy nearing its 50th birthday - one can only wonder what technology is under wraps at present !

What is the earliest report of a triangular craft , the silent /stationary type ?

edit; typo

[edit on 11-10-2008 by UmbraSumus]

reply to post by HypnoAsp

why don't they just turn their damn lights off?

I have thought about this myself and have several answers.

1. Maybe they do most of the time and that is why there aren't more sightings
2. The type of propulsion they use (electro-magnetic I think) creates the lights around the craft, so they can't turn them off.
3. They want us to see the lights so we get used to them prior to them showing up in broad day light.
4. Or finally, they put the lights on for a gag because they know it freaks us out!

Originally posted by WatchNLearn
reply to post by HypnoAsp

 

why don't they just turn their damn lights off?

I have thought about this myself and have several answers.

1. Maybe they do most of the time and that is why there aren't more sightings
2. The type of propulsion they use (electro-magnetic I think) creates the lights around the craft, so they can't turn them off.
3. They want us to see the lights so we get used to them prior to them showing up in broad day light.
4. Or finally, they put the lights on for a gag because they know it freaks us out!

Thank you watch. I too have entertained every single point of yours at some given point. Every time I think I am comfortable with one of them, I began to feel "uneasy" and entertain another. It is just a vicious cycle. as I stated before I really want to believe, however I would like to surmise my conclusion with fact or logic and not a leap of faith. I truly am stumped. The sheer fact that I cannot figure this subject out is what makes me such a crazed fanatic. I simply cannot and will not give up until I have. It's quite maddening.

Thank you so much for your post

~Hyp

reply to post by UmbraSumus


Lol umbra, It seems you and I are two peas in a pod. First a 15 year hiatus and then a statement that the older models are still reported with an analogy of our own speedy technology advances. I agree you are correct. I love a good debate and have a buddy that is dead set on the idea that we mold the sightings to our own understanding. Say a person in 1875 sees something strange in the sky, he may report it is as an airship as it is all he understands. What really irks him is when I retort that I live in the modern age and If I see two cake pans glued together, I will report two cake pans glued together, not a football field sized black triangle.

Yes you are correct one my still find a rare reporting and photos of a cake pan or cigar shaped UFO. I have entertained the idea that these may be reported by the ignorant with very few resources. (i.e. the Mexico sightings.) Then on the flip side it could be intelligent hoaxers who truly realize the dilemma and are merely attempting to inject the older models back into current popular lore again to keep "hope alive". Finally it could just be taken for face value and they are still around. No, I do not suffer from multiple personality disorder, I swear!!!!



~Hyp

reply to post by Dock6


Thank you dock! This is why I love ATS. In all my research I have never come across this example. Just when I thought I reached the end of the Internet, I have something to truly discover. I will research this and absorb as much as i can a.s.ap.

In direct conflict with my previous post, one may find each of the models clearly depicted in the art of antiquity. Another dilemma that is driving absolutely insane.

Sigh, I am so disappointed with the lack of response to my post. Clearly there are some very intelligent UFO buffs on this site. Where in the world are they? Honestly it is not hard to generate a popular post on this forum. One would only have to claim their name is "Rosepetal Goodfella" and claim that that they have a channeled message that the aliens are gonna anal probe the entire human population on "October 14th". Such a thread would be starred and flagged 100 times. What has happened to my ATS? Try to conduct an intelligent debate and well the post just sits in the dead letter office. Sheesh.....


~Hyp

"It would seem sightings generally correlate with that particular era's "popular air culture". In the 1800's to early 1900's strange airship shaped craft were reported. What was flying at that time? Airships!"

I am by no means an expert by I think the only reason it is described this way is that people use whatever terminology is available to them at the time.

They (and us) have no real frame of reference to describe things that have never been seen so they have to use terms and words that are familiar to them.

The famous UFO researcher Jacques Vallee tried to figure this problem out, too, after reviewing all the available UFO data, including the really odd and weird stuff. He ran into a lot of flak from people who just couldn't get it out of their heads that UFOs might represent something more than just nuts-and-bolts spaceships flown by alien critters kind of like us, only from different planets. As a result, he essentially walked away from UFO study.

His analysis of the reports led him to think (although certainly not to prove) that UFOs is a phenomenon has very similar patterns to it that you would find in a "teaching curve." That is to say, UFOs seem to be offering us glimpses of a possible technological future generally less than 50-100 years ahead. Like it's showing us what's possible, but only in little bits and drabs that we have the ability to work toward. So the people around the turn of the last century saw super advanced airships. The people in the 1950's see flying saucers. We get triangles and other UFOs that can change shape but also appear different to individual witnesses. UFOs are teaching us and guiding us, supposedly.

Who is doing it? Hard to say. Vallee seemed to hint that he thought there was possibly an intellectual force of some kind at work that we couldn't directly access. Not "God," necessarily. But some kind of possibly interplanetary entity or group of entities that works in secret, behind the scenes, toward getting us to advance technologically and intellectually.

Personally, I'm not convinced. That seems like the way you might train a dog or a dolphin to do something. Human beings are smart, and if you give them a chance to see what they can do, and how then can benefit from it, we'll work ourselves to death to figure it out. We want to learn. We don't have to be tricked into doing it. Just tell us, and we'll bust our humps.

I don't doubt Vallee's research, though. There does seem to be something at work. But I tend to think that a lot of what UFOs are has to do with the way we perceive time and space. I think that in some ways what we see flying around the sky or poking around our bedrooms at night appear the way they do because that's what we have the intellectual capacity to perceive and comprehend. They're just a small piece of a larger picture that involves energy and consciousness and space being much more "permeable" than they appear, with things and ideas and thoughts bouncing around in all kinds of ways.

But as relatively smart monkeys, we just don't have the intellectual capacity to make sense of it. So maybe what we're seeing and experiencing is really US, reaching out "psychically" from our own future to guide us toward that future. That would help to explain why they have such a light touch, as anything having to do with manipulating or interacting with non-linear time always carries the risk of unwanted reverberation. Maybe UFOs are a tool used by a future entities of consciousness and energy, showing us things we don't quite understand, so that we grow toward their future and guarantee their existence.

I don't know. We have very, very few clues to this puzzle.

Hypno-
Sorry i didn`t get back quicker to you.

You seem to suffer from the same " YO - YO Effect " as myself ,

I had put the U.F.O subject into a box marked "answered" and stored it in a corner of my mind .
Fifteen years later , i install broadband , and out of curiosity i decided to see if there was anything after happening to the subject of U.F.O in the intervening decade and a half .....

Was i pleasantly surprised !

So i`ve spent the last year watching documentaries surely 100`s of hours , articles etc
Some very very compelling findings , tantalising tidbits but ultimately incomplete.
After being blown away initially by the disclosure project , i now find it severely tainted by association with Dr. Greer.
And as for the O`Hare U.F.O tape supposedly in the position of Dan Aykroyd, the blood vessel at my temple still twitches at the mention of it .

Originally posted by Nohup


Personally, I'm not convinced. That seems like the way you might train a dog or a dolphin to do something. Human beings are smart, and if you give them a chance to see what they can do, and how then can benefit from it, we'll work ourselves to death to figure it out. We want to learn. We don't have to be tricked into doing it. Just tell us, and we'll bust our humps.

I agree 100% yet another dead end. I am so confused

~Hyp

reply to post by HypnoAsp


The airships of the late 19th Century are more than likely hoaxes. It was not uncommon for newspapers of the day to print hoaxes, so that is the most probable explanation.

It does seem that UFOs take on the popular aspects of media, and that is why early encounters (such as the Hill incident) take on more importance.

It is also possible for there to be more than one explanation for the types of sightings, such as interdimensional and or space travel. The main idea is unknown, so they could come from any number of areas. It is like the sasquatch and the yeti, two very similar yet different creatures.

I also like the cases where there is a lot going for it ie: reliable witnesses, radar confirmations, physical trace evidence.

It also seems everyone has a book out, and many of the books repeat the same thing, or add nothing new to the debate. There are channelers, contactees, whistleblowers, and abductees out there with their own theories. It is time for the Ufologists to start looking at other ways of proving this phenomena, and to start vetting some of these claims that are being made.

reply to post by Nohup


wow, i like that idea. definitely one of the more plausible ones. makes a lot of sense. I've often wondered if maybe the reason they are so hard to pin down is just that, they have something to do with some kind of advanced conciousness or some quasi-spiritual thing. definitely better than robotic greys subservient to the lizard overlords

Originally posted by kidflash2008
reply to post by HypnoAsp

 

It also seems everyone has a book out, and many of the books repeat the same thing, or add nothing new to the debate. There are channelers, contactees, whistleblowers, and abductees out there with their own theories. It is time for the Ufologists to start looking at other ways of proving this phenomena, and to start vetting some of these claims that are being made.

Amen to that brother, I get so giddy when I drop $35.00 on a new book I rush home and delve into it, only to discover its the same old recycled material. Boo! Though I do not know what to make out of It, my favorite read in a long time has to be "Hunt for the Skin Walker". It's about the Sherman Ranch not the Gilliand Ranch and will leave your brain whirring from metaphysical and consciousness strangeness.


~Hyp

Wow, anymore thoughts on this? Anyone? Any contribution would be greatly appreciated.




~Hyp