American Patriotism Terrifies me!!

reply to post by THELONIO



No, actually thats what people do.

You cannot blame the tool for the actions of the user.

Sorry about my mix-up earlier, the names completely slipped my mind. (I also felt quite ill, and still do)

As I remember pointing out before, hi, I'm English . I like being English (and I don't like being British, I don't live in all those many places), I live in a city that has a lot of history to it. But it also happens to be one that is reputed to have the worst gun crime in the country.

Do I feel afraid to go out of my house? No, in fact I'll quite happily go walking through the city streets during the night.

Do I feel I need something to protect me? No. Why? Because as bad as the media seems to want to make it out, and as bad as some people seem to assume, most people in the UK don't live in constant fear of being attacked by a gun wielding homicidal maniac with AIDS that wants to rape you. The crimes that are committed, that are murders, are usually because that person/persons got in trouble with the 'wrong' crowd, caused it, or got into an argument with someone equally as armed as they were, thus tempers and irresponsibility factors into it.

I'm not sure where some of you are getting the idea that all UK citizens live in fear because they aren't allowed guns.

And please stop attacking Merriman Weir. They never said that they wanted gun control in the US

Originally posted by JipStix
Yea idiots who voted for bush terrify me.
They aren't really patriots, but mindless morons.

This is the kind of person who terrifies ME.
Someone who believes that unless others think as he does, they are "mindless morons". They aren't patriots.. just parrots right?

This attitude is very prevelant on the left of the aisle.

How could anyone possibly vote for stupid ole Bush?
You must be a redneck retard to have voted for Bush. Therefore, if you voted for him you are a mindless boob who does not matter.

Thanks for that.

To me, YOU are intolerant, you seem to believe that anyone who has a different opinion is a mindless moron blindly following a conservative "hate us or leave us mantra".


I find it highly ironic that 90% of the really viscious hatred comes from the LEFT while simultaneously proclaiming the right a bunch of intolerant bigots. Telling someone their ideas and ideals are stupid is INTOLERANT of others, intolerance is not just about skin color and sexual preference.


I voted for Bush, I had valid reasons for it. He may not have turned out exactly as I had hoped, but who ever does? A vote for Bush was not a blanket vote for war, or for trampling the constitution just as a vote for Kerry or Gore doesn't absolve you from being an active participant in what America does.

You can't be an American only when your candidate wins or things only go your way and to count out the people you disagree with makes you ignorant.

Loving America does not make you a blind moron.
Loving America blindly does.
There is a BIG difference.

Even the gun totin' yee hawin' rednecks in Texas that the OP is so terrified about know that.
To paint with such a broad brush just tells us who YOU are.

I love my country for many, many reasons. One simple one of which is this forum and the ability for idiots to speak their minds (case in point).

Originally posted by ShiningSabrewolf


Do I feel I need something to protect me? No. Why? Because as bad as the media seems to want to make it out, and as bad as some people seem to assume, most people in the UK don't live in constant fear of being attacked by a gun wielding homicidal maniac with AIDS that wants to rape you. The crimes that are committed, that are murders, are usually because that person/persons got in trouble with the 'wrong' crowd, caused it, or got into an argument with someone equally as armed as they were, thus tempers and irresponsibility factors into it.

just for the record, most Americans (regardless of the same media hype and BS) feel the same way.

reply to post by Constitutional Scholar


i have thought about getting a gun, but what for?, a gun has but one use, to kill, is that hard for you to understand?. yes it is the people who do it but they do it with a gun, when nobody has a gun why would you need one?, their sole purpose is to kill!!!

reply to post by THELONIO


Your premise is false. (if no one else had a gun?) That's like saying, 'we're going back to the horse and buggy days. Too many people getting killed in cars."

Guns are out. Cars are out. They exist. They aren't going away.

You take personal responsibility out of the equation.

It isn't what I'm going to do with my weapon, the question is, what will someone else do with a weapon? My weapon somewhat guarantees or limits misuse of his weapon.

This really isn't rocket science. Checks and balances. We love it in government, but for some reason, folks want to rely on goodwill and reason in a very violent world. It doesn't work that way. It's unfortunate, it's sad to be sure, but like it or not, there are some very evil, very selfish, very spur-of-the-moment people out there.

You are responsible for your own security. If you do not have the means, you are neglecting your duty as a citizen. You don't have to like it, but that's the way it is.

reply to post by dooper

i understand what you are saying but where do you begin to solve a problem like this?, if you want a peaceful society how can it exist with the presence of guns? you have a gun i get a bigger gun so you get an even bigger gun, hey then nukes, its all the same, you just have to be able to concieve it in your mind, ban all guns, takethem away as you find them and they will get rarer and rarer, yep some people will get hurt along the way but it would be no worse than the situation at present

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman


Tell me one Civilized Society you are talking about. The Liberal Utopian Society promised through the fog of Drugs in the 60s, is that the one.
I know of no society that has done away with crime by taking guns away from its law abiding citizens. If you have please tell me. I know of no society that has taken guns out of the hands of criminals by enacting anti gun laws that only law abiding citizens will follow. If you have please tell me. I do know that citizens with guns have stopped crimes in the hundred of thousands each and every year that are ignored, downplayed and not recognized by the Liberal Media in order to put forth the notion that guns only are used for evil in our society...

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
What, so it doesn't count? You asked me to ask the Welsh, the Irish or the Scots for their perspective, so why does theirs count and mine doesn't? How does that work? Isn't their perspective only one perspective too?

Of course yours counts, but only as a percentage of the whole. Same as mine. Not everyone has the same life experiences and therefore on any given subject there will be differing opinions. I can live with this and adjust my thinking if presented with reasonable evidence to warrant a change. Doesn't happen often, though.

Maybe so, but all the current writing on the subject does actually undermine the idea of English patriotism being the issue that you're suggesting. Seriously, the British internal relationships are far more complicated that non-British think and certainly not as cut-and-dried as Americans thing. For example, 'West Lothian question'

It is the same for America. Simply put, we are not a simple people anymore. Our "melting pot" culture has complicated things beyond belief.

I don't see anything hypocritical in what the OP did at all. ...and I don't think he's denying that other countries aren't patriotic either. I think, to various degrees all countries have at least some patriotism, however, as I've pointed out elsewhere in the thread, I think America's take on patriotism is fairly unique in the Western world. Again, for clarification, I say that more as an observation rather than a criticism.

What he stated was that American patriotism terrifies him. Why should our patriotism be any scarier than any others? People are either patriotic or they are not. People that are, by definition, feel rather strongly about it. And, I am beginning to learn, people that aren't feel rather strongly about those that are. But, as others have pointed out, let us not confuse Patriotism with Nationalism. What the rest of the world may not understand is that the armed Patriotic populace in America may one day be all that stands in the way of a rogue Nationalist American government, and the rest of the world. Let us hope it never comes to that.

Well, I didn't have to join the armed forces to experience American arrogance! I'm not saying only Americans are arrogant by any means, as arrogant swines come from every country, and I'm not saying all Americans are arrogant either, but I've seen American arrogance on every internet community I've ever been a part of.

On this, I think we can agree. You have posted well, sir, you have my respect.

[edit on 14-10-2008 by DisgustedOne]

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by Constitutional Scholar

 

i have thought about getting a gun, but what for?, a gun has but one use, to kill, is that hard for you to understand?. yes it is the people who do it but they do it with a gun, when nobody has a gun why would you need one?, their sole purpose is to kill!!!

100% incorrect.

A gun has one use: To fire a projectile.

Now, whether that projectile is directed at a paper target, a pop can, an animal, or a human being is all based upon the human holding the gun.

reply to post by Constitutional Scholar


Well said.

There are a ton of folks who should never pick up a gun. They either don't have the discipline and will put in the considerable effort to learn to use the weapon accurately and safely, or they don't have the - I'm having trouble with the word - resolve, moral courage, firmness - to use the weapon to affect a desired outcome, which should be the termination of an opponent who has determined to use deadly force.

Otherwise you should never have picked it up to start with.

Originally posted by Constitutional Scholar


100% incorrect.

A gun has one use: To fire a projectile.

Now, whether that projectile is directed at a paper target, a pop can, an animal, or a human being is all based upon the human holding the gun.

Just curious. If that is a gun's one and only use...
What is a gun's purpose?

reply to post by THELONIO


Again, I doubt that banning all guns and gradually taking them away will work. For one thing, here in the US, our birthright to be armed is guaranteed by our Constitution. So everyone else can get rid of theirs if they want.

I'll be keeping mine. I've seen too many times what happens with unarmed people.

I think I saw a question as to the purpose of a gun.

A gun is a tool. Ask yourself the question, what is the purpose of a tool?

Usually a tool is supposed to better enable a task.

And I think that your real question is, how can you eliminate a forceful, evil task or intent?

My answer would be with greater force, enabled by greater will, accomplished through greater skill. The means is just a tool.

Originally posted by gormly

Originally posted by JipStix


Loving America does not make you a blind moron.
Loving America blindly does.
There is a BIG difference.

Even the gun totin' yee hawin' rednecks in Texas that the OP is so terrified about know that.
To paint with such a broad brush just tells us who YOU are.

I love my country for many, many reasons. One simple one of which is this forum and the ability for idiots to speak their minds (case in point).

Its views like this... that actually restore my faith in humanity on a time-to-time basis.

It doesnt matter if you are pro or anti american politics... People are people and the most fundamental right is that they have a right to be who they are - regardless of political pursausion.

I remember consoling a friend of mine that was there, ash still clinging to her clothes on 9/12 saying that the beauty of america is that it was built on the concept of freedom, free expression and so on and so forth.

This place is a shining example in a way.

Whether you are for gun laws or for 2nd amendment rights, people dont change. They are still basically good people who want to make their world better... and by default others...

call me an idealist bleeding heart liberal, but its ok. You have every right to call me whatever you want.

Cheers from down under.

Dave

Originally posted by THELONIO
reply to post by dooper

 

i understand what you are saying but where do you begin to solve a problem like this?, if you want a peaceful society how can it exist with the presence of guns? you have a gun i get a bigger gun so you get an even bigger gun, hey then nukes, its all the same, you just have to be able to concieve it in your mind, ban all guns, takethem away as you find them and they will get rarer and rarer, yep some people will get hurt along the way but it would be no worse than the situation at present

Banning guns doesnt stop the crime only the method used. For example
Washington, DC has a UK-like ban on handguns, and it has the highest murder rate in the US, by far. Right across the river, Arlington, Virginia, has a murder rate lower than that in London. Virginia has no handgun ban, and allows any lawful citizen that passes a training course to carry a concealed handgun in public. Now, you tell me-- does gun control really reduce crime?

In the United Kingdom theres been a ban on guns for a decade and There in the perfect situation they are on a island it makes it harder to get guns. A gun ban in the US just means the mexican border will have something new smuggled across. But even in the UK criminals still manage to get them and comit crimes in fact violent crime is up from when they were banned.. So why take them away from someone who obeys laws.

Interesting article:

28 gun crimes committed in UK every day

Truth is you take guns away people will use knives bats swords whatever they can find. You have to change the bahavior not the instrument used. On a funny note though was watching a show were a guy in london tried to rob a store with a crossbow. Fortunately for the clerk he didnt load it until he got in the store and in the process of attempting to shot it into the counter. Where he was promptly chased down by the store clerk with a bat it was great.

Originally posted by THELONIO
this is what your guns are doing

guns needed?



you must protect your rights so that you can carry guns because you need em,

fools, when you live in a society without guns you will understand

you appear to be the fool, those murders are carried out by criminals, criminals carrying illegal guns are the main issue in your link- I dont think they are going to stop carrying their guns after reading your fantastic analysis

Meanwhile, law abiding citizens with arms do not pose a criminal risk

reply to post by blueorder


i hate ignorant people that spout the "its because it is, because it is" line.... pro-guns is anti law and order from what I can gather from the arguments proffered here. America must be the most paranoid and frightened society we have in the western world...

Dave

Originally posted by daptodave

i hate ignorant people

hate yourself then

that spout the "its because it is, because it is" line....

stop getting hysterical and deal with points raised- criminals with guns are the issues not legally held wepons, if you think otherwise then you are a nut

pro-guns is anti law

bizzarre, and, in the US, clearly incorrect

and order from what I can gather from the arguments proffered here. America must be the most paranoid and frightened society we have in the western world...
Dave

most americans Ive met havent been paranoid Dave, open your small mind a little

Here's one for y'all -

Most people on this thread have argued that its every American's right to own a gun to defend against 'Despotic' rule.

Most homes in Iraq own an AK47

Didn't do them too much good against despotic rule now did it?

Originally posted by Thebudweiserstuntman
Here's one for y'all -

Most people on this thread have argued that its every American's right to own a gun to defend against 'Despotic' rule.

Most homes in Iraq own an AK47

Didn't do them too much good against despotic rule now did it?

Sorry could you clarify, pre Saddam coming to power, what was the level of legal gun ownership amongst the Iraqi populace