American Patriotism Terrifies me!!

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman



When you put a disgusting piece of legislation in effect and called it patriotic, I get scared too.
What is patriotic in Patriot Act?

nice thread,

can't believe they all jumped in...

little disappointing in such a forum

american revolution is not yet for tomorrow; the brainwash had been deep and effective.

Whilst not everyone handed their guns over, quite a few did despite the idea of it being an American right. I can't see the point in more government measures to prevent this from happening again; didn't the government say it wouldn't happen in the first place? Isn't that what the right to bear arms is about? Why believe them again.

For all the people sat here reading ATS whilst polishing and cleaning all manner of assault rifles, hand guns and home-rigged napalm machines, the reality is when people are asked, some at least will hand them over. If that's the case, what is the point of a right to bear arms if it's so easily overturned without a bullet even being fired.

In a sense, people were lucky with Katrina. As devastating as it was - absolutely terrible - at least some normality has resumed, if only in the rest of the country. Anything bigger, such as the kind of scenario that people are alluding to with the right to bear arms, and there's not going to be an opportunity for the NRA to be demanding the guns are given back. There won't be an NRA and there won't be a constitution which gives you that right in the first place.


The best post I have seen so far ....
I heard my Texas friends all say if something like what happened during Katrina (The taking of their guns) they would have to pry them from their cold dead hands ...Then Ike happened ....I bet you money that those who stayed behind during that hurricaine ..GLADLY went with the Cops when they came to their doors and told them now they gotta leave (After the fact)...And I bet they didnt get to take their guns with them ..Neither did they use them on the cops when they were being FORCED to leave their homes ...And forced to leave their guns behind (I bet the guns were all gone when they were allowed to came back home later ) ....
The cops went door to door ..you can bet they confiscated guns during Ike too .....

What I think you aren't understanding about the gun issue here is.. in America the "bad guys" that might take your tv or worse HAVE GUNS. We in many states including Georgia, are protected under law to shoot someone who is robbing us or attacking us. Granted with that we have to be in danger.. let me go into an example.

My boyfriend was robbed a while ago. Three guys came in with guns and bound him up and one even threatened to shoot him... over cds and playstation games..

That, in every way, shows me that we absolutely need responsible gun owners. We have to protect ourselves and our property. He's lucky to be alive, someone we know was recently gunned down in a robbery. What I'm trying to say is we have to have guns because the "bad guys" whoever they are, will.

Especially in the south a lot of people like to go hunting and for some types of hunting a gun is all you can use..can't exactly use a bow and arrow to shoot a dove out of the air..

As for blind patriotism.. In my honest opinion true patriots are people who stand for their countries foundation. The constitution.. the bill of rights.. etc. Nobody can blindly follow anyone for too long before they trip and fall.

reply to post by Boogley


Then let me ask you, Boogly. Are the good citizens in the UK living in terror from the insane amount of crime? Remember, in the UK, criminals DO HAVE guns and the good people do not. Do they go without buying playstations and cds because someone with a gun will just come and take it or is this another attempt at justifying one thing with something completely different?

Originally posted by Merriman Weir
For all the people sat here reading ATS whilst polishing and cleaning all manner of assault rifles, hand guns and home-rigged napalm machines...

Where can I acquire one of these "napalm machines" of which you speak?

I find your ideas intrigueing, and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman
During these dark times, it is well-worth recalling the sage advice of the great American revolutionary Thomas Jefferson: The strongest reason for the people to retain the right to keep and bear arms is, as a last resort, to protect themselves against tyranny in government.

source

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman

I don't think that there is anything wrong with patriotism, regardless of your nationality - American, Japanese, Saudi, whatever. The problem with many patriotic attitudes is that they often come hand in hand with jingoist attitudes. Furthermore, many self-proclaimed patriots, feel that anything they deem as "necessary" to benefit their nation is okay. Also, speaking from experience, it is unfortunate that many of these extreme nationalists are also racist to a certain degree. So, this is where I stand: patriotism is great, jingoism is bad, and often detrimental to someone, some group, some nation.


[edit on 12-10-2008 by o22a6ar]

Originally posted by TruthTellist
reply to post by ZeroGhost

 

Remember the Million Mom March against Guns?

*snip*

Adults should not be afraid of inanimate objects.

They should be afraid of the people trying to take away the one inanimate object that gives them a chances at defending themselves, their families and maybe even their countries.

In fact, just the mere presence of certain inanimate objects is enough to keep a government from becoming tyrannical and even helps to discourage foreign invasion (see Yamamoto's comments).

[edit on 12-10-2008 by TruthTellist]

Removed picture of mass grave.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by GAOTU789]

I did not say anything about gun control. I said I don't need or want a gun. Who are you talking to?

As many examples and more can be used to counter your argument. But do you think it is a right to have neutron weapons and nuclear weapons too so they are everywhere. How does your logic scale? When does it end? How do suggest I defend my family against you?

I was raised with guns. Had 3 before I was 13. Trained by my father who was a police officer. He also taught me how to defend myself without weapons by being intelligent and know how to avoid confrontations. I don't need guns. My weapon of choice is my intuition, intelligence and knowledge. I don't need a holster for that.

I have no need to endanger my family with such dangerous and costly tools. I use a drill to make holes.

Have your guns. Be safe, and keep them from my family.

ZG

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman

Just because guns are illegal does not mean that people won't have guns. I used to go to school with a kid who carried a loaded, and very illegal handgun to school everyday. You want no guns, and someone else wants no freedom of speech. You cannot go around trying to abolish our constitutional rights.

reply to post by Thebudweiserstuntman

The United States is not the United Kingdom. No one (I use that loosely for I am not sure) has guns in the United Kingdom; a whole lot of people have guns in the United States. Not everyone, or every country, for that matter, can be the same. Get used to it. I am American. I do love my country. I do not like the people in charge. I am sure there are some idiots running the United Kingdom too. Besides the United States, and the United Kingdom share a common heritage. For all I know we could be related somehow. No we're family. Be happy and embrace different cultures. Difference is what makes things interesting.

Patriotism means nothing and is plain dangerous. How can you be "proud" of your country ? Did you make it ? Is it a personal achievement ?
What links you to a land, apart from your feet on the ground ?

What "common values" do all people who SAY they are true americans share ? Everyone has a different conception of things, some "true patriots" want to hang all the "'n-word's" , while other people who believe that no, they are "true patriots" and say these other patriots are wrong.

Patriotism, and believing your country is the best in the world leads to war and discrimination. The world hates america for it's self centered patriotism. Patriotism seperates you from your fellow man. "I'm american" "I'm mexican", "I'm spanish"... That means so little.
How about "I'm human" ? That means a lot more and is far more generous.

Every single facist state on the face of this globe has emerged by encouraging nationalism. Patriotism leads to nationalism, which in turn leads to discrimination and racism. Just like the greeks and romans with their respective "barbarians" (people who just didn't speak greek or latin).

I'm sure north koreans think they live in the best country in the world. Are you gonna fight 'em for it ?

There is nothing great about america as a country. Great landscapes, but they were there before you. Great army. That's something to be proud of ! Great president 'cough'. Great crime rate ! Great economy... Need I continue ?

The values patriots defend are the values of a small and frightened country, which expected to be reduced to ashes at any given moment by the all-mighty british empire. When people are scared they huddle together for protection.

Maybe now is time to move on : consider that the world no longer has to be your enemy, and that your sucessive governements have repeatedly used the patriot card (+fear of anything that is different than AMERICA) when in need of public support for starting unjustifiable wars. Maybe that says something about patriotism. It is used for goading people into accepting the mass murder of fellow human beings.

And the problem lies here. Had someone invaded YOUR country, you would be charging the enemy line flag waving and screaming your national anthem. Your governement invaded Irak, and although some of you patriots may disagree with this descision, you would not defend your fellow human iraqkis with as much conviction as you would have defended your "own people" (whatever that means). This shows that to you patriots, all human lives are not equal.

My philosophy is that my feet are where they are, and the past was not of my making. There are many great places to go, and great people to meet. I don't care about nationalities. They say nothing about people. On the other hand, patriotism does. And it says nothing good. In most european countries, the only people who call themselves "patriots" are the extreme right. The neo-nazis.

This is not an attack on american patriotism in particular, but on nationalism in general, it divides us as a species, when we should be united by our common gene-pool.


[edit on 12-10-2008 by Ismail]

reply to post by argentus

You have more of a right to complain. You had nothing to do with what whichever idiot who made it in did. Besides, it's not like you'd have a chance voting for someone you really supported. You have the choice of "A" or "B." Voting for anyone in between is simply a vote with more of an opinion than a vote that is influenced by the popular media. It means nothing. I don't say this without citations. Not a single third party candidate has ever been elected president.

To give a really simple analogy to presidential elections, I will use soft drinks. If someone asks you if you think Coca Cola, or Pepsi tastes better, you have a few options. You may honestly think that Coca Cola or Pepsi is better than the other. You pick one. However if you don't like either, answering the question becomes difficult. You cannot really answer Royal Crown Cola, it is not an option. So confronted with question you can either lie, or you can choose not to answer. Answering Royal Crown Cola doesn't make a difference because it does not change what the consensus becomes. Most people either like Coca Cola, or Pepsi because they produce the most advertising.

So when it comes to presidential elections, and you pick a third party candidate, it does not matter. The primary candidates got more airtime, and as a consequence almost everybody sees them as the only, and best options. Even if the don't like either, they lie as to avoid "throwing their vote away." The only other choice is to not vote. The only reason this is frowned upon is to give more votes to candidate "A" or "B," because as you can see from my, logical, or unlogical (you scrutinize), deduction, "C" is not even an option worth partaking in. That is true unless you want to make a point. Unfortunately, a lot more people are going to have to "make a point" for this illusion of choice to cease existing.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by o22a6ar]

[I was raised with guns. Had 3 before I was 13. Trained by my father who was a police officer. He also taught me how to defend myself without weapons by being intelligent and know how to avoid confrontations. I don't need guns. My weapon of choice is my intuition, intelligence and knowledge. I don't need a holster for that.
I have no need to endanger my family with such dangerous and costly tools. I use a drill to make holes.
Have your guns. Be safe, and keep them from my family.
ZG ]


STAR for ya ...and I am in total agreement with everything you said .
In fact I grew up with guns too .Every member of my family (Grandma,Mother,Aunts and Uncles and even older cousins) all had guns ..and they were for survival purposes in Alaska ...no doubt we needed them .
The problem was that even those people who KNOW how to use them and even grew up with using them ..
Did shoot eachother when mad and drunk ..
I have at least three family members who shot eachother because of drinking and anger ..At the DINNER TABLE even ....(well one of them happened then) ..the other two were at family gatherings ..

My family wasnt alone either ...the Islanders were all just normal people too (like us) and there was LOTS Of shootings (at eachother for no other reason than they pissed them off ) .... that took place from those gun owners who swore they just needed them for protection and hunting .

Most people forget that alot of the supposed criminals who are armed were just normal citizens and just thought they were bad asses when they got their gun rights and they ABUSED IT ....I know some of them right now .
That I WISHED TO GOD they were not allowed a right to carry a gun .
Especially the young 21 year olds and upcoming 21 yr olds....Most of them are SO MESSED UP in the head and so VIOLENT already that it scares the crap out of me .(even my youngest son who is now 20 I would not want him to be carrying for ANY REASON ..because he has already shown he is incapable of keeping a cool head with a weapon in his hand he has temper problems ] .Even though on paper they are eligible to be able to carry ....
Most of those kids will not use those guns just for defense purposes ..you know it and I know it ....


[edit on 12-10-2008 by Simplynoone]

As a preface, I am a white male, republican gun-owner from Texas, and I voted for Bush. Twice. My deepest apologies to all. I have two degrees. I was a Fox News junkie and Rush Dittohead after 9/11, and there was I time I believed the U.S. should use it's power to stomp across the planet "spreading democracy and freedom," creating a "Pax Americana," if you will. I believed this was our "manifest destiny." Slowly, through patient friends, exhaustive research, and breaking with the right/left paradigm, I have awakened to a new world. A world that saddens and frightens me. I no longer believe we can conquer the world for peace. I am not alone, even in this relatively small West Texas town. We Americans are waking up. We Texans are waking up. We mean you no harm. We no longer have faith in the leaders of our governments, our flags, or our military industrial complex. However, we do have faith in Liberty. We have faith in Tolerance. We have faith in Freedom Coupled with Responsibility. And we have faith in Humanity. Please don't succumb to the stereotypes about us. We are all in this together. Trust me, you cannot win an argument with a Texan, but you can win a friend. In time you can show a friend enlightenment. It is not as immediately satisfying as winning an argument or out-shouting someone, but the effects just might spread and save us all...

reply to post by michael


Thank you. I profoundly admire people who can change for the best, they give me hope and joy. Peace, friend.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Ismail]

"War President"?

Strange that I never heard that term used during the 2000 election, or after it (prior to 9/11). I read at least two newspapers daily (including either the L.A. or the N.Y. Times). In fact, this is another "factoid" which has been made up.

I realize that most of our European friends crap their drawers at the very concept of fighting back against an aggressor. They are so afraid that their cushy lifestyles might be disturbed, that they will surrender to anyone rather than even consider the possibility of self defense.

The United States was attacked, and it responded. Iraq was threatening its neighbors, had consistently refused to follow any United Nations Resolutions, etc. Sadly, the Europeans would do nothing, they obviously believe that UN orders are irrelevant.

Just as they see nothing wrong with the concept of Iran having nuclear weapons. Oh, intellectually many do not think this is a good idea, but they are unwilling to actually do anything about it other than talk. Talk, talk, talk, that's about all they are good for.

You would think that the Europeans would have learned, after Hitler and Stalin, that talking to dictators and oppressors does not work. They will just manipulate those countries that are all for appeasement, and take advantage of their weakness. That's exactly what the Iranians are doing right now.

What will it take to wake them up? An atomic cloud over Tel Aviv? But then again, that's just a bunch of Jews, Who would even consider fighting to preserve them?

Yes indeed, the French people are anti-war. Just as they were anti-war in 1939-40, when the Nazi's overran their country. Remember, it was the French that were the MOST cooperative with the Germans, willingly rounding up their own Jews (and others they didn't like), and turning them over to the Germans for extermination.

And those good Germans are anti-war. Of course, they experienced the total ruination of their nation and it was dismembered for over 45 years. They lost about 20% of their national territory at the end of World War II. So, they are scared to even think of fighting anyone, for any reason. Much better to be a live coward, than a dead hero.

Yes indeed, those European countries (including Russia) would still be under German control, had it not been for the US. Not only did the US provide more fighting men than all of the European countries combined (with the exception of the USSR), but it also provided over 60% of all of the war materials used by ALL of the Allies.

And only 1 European country ever paid all of its debt back to the USA. Denmark paid its debt in full. All of the others had their debts reduced markedly, because they simply refused to pay us back.

And they have the gall to criticise us?

reply to post by michael


Glad to hear I am not alone here in Texas ..
Wish you were my next door neighbor ..lol
We could hang together and try to bring some form of normalcy to our neighborhood when chit really does hit the fan ...Because right now I feel like I will be alone with my sanity at that time .

It bothers me so much to see so many of my friends and neighbors all so worried about food and house payments and work etc ..and yet still their most important thing they go on and on about is their right to carry a weapon.And their good ole boy GW ...and that if it isnt on FOX news then its not true ..
And how the Iraqi people need to be bombed into oblivion even if they were not terrorists ....and on and on .

It breaks my heart really ..

reply to post by OldMedic


The United States attacked it's self, so rich men could get richer. Your country is about to bankrupt the entire planet. Guess were all quits.

[edit on 12-10-2008 by Ismail]