So, in an attempt to get this puppy back on the road:
The fact is that we have either nothing to fear from either candidate, or everything to fear about both of them. I do truly believe that no matter
which one wins, it's an improvement over the status quo. As for all the fearmongering, I would quote FDR: "The only thing we have to fear is fear
itself." It was true then and is still true today. Solutions never come from fear, only more problems. It's time for us to move beyond the fear
and the hate and move towards the direction that our Founding Fathers laid out for us. It's about issues, not personalities. It's about common
problems, not associations. We need to remember the truth behind the wise words of Aesop: "United we stand, divided we fall." We are very
divided, and if we do not change this we are in for a major fall.
So McCain says that we shouldnt be scared of Obama as president, page 11
privacy
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 09:18 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by ManBehindTheMask
I don't want to derail the thread again, so I'll be brief. Before the invasion, Iraq was a buffer to Iran as they had been either at war or on the brink for decades. Iraq kept Iran in check. Since then... And we had no problem getting to Afghanistan for the year and a half prior to the invasion.
As to the second point, which is on topic, I have looked at both candidates in detail, and both have nasty skeletons in their closets. Given that, it comes down to their standing on the issues and their policies, as Senator McCain stated. Taking a good detailed look at the state of the country and the world and what got us to this point, Senator Obama's plan is more likely to get the country back on the right track. If you are going to make judgements based only on skeletons, then no one will ever be able to stand up to that measuring stick. Every candidate and past President comes with a buttload of baggage.
I would suggest taking a step back and look at the big picture, including the history of this nation and the rest of the world. We are not the innocent good guys we like to think we are. Almost every nation we are having difficulty with can be traced to actions of past administrations. We need to stop being 'Team America, World Police'. The UN was created for a reason, mostly because of US backing, and we need to let it do it's job.
I don't want to derail the thread again, so I'll be brief. Before the invasion, Iraq was a buffer to Iran as they had been either at war or on the brink for decades. Iraq kept Iran in check. Since then... And we had no problem getting to Afghanistan for the year and a half prior to the invasion.
As to the second point, which is on topic, I have looked at both candidates in detail, and both have nasty skeletons in their closets. Given that, it comes down to their standing on the issues and their policies, as Senator McCain stated. Taking a good detailed look at the state of the country and the world and what got us to this point, Senator Obama's plan is more likely to get the country back on the right track. If you are going to make judgements based only on skeletons, then no one will ever be able to stand up to that measuring stick. Every candidate and past President comes with a buttload of baggage.
I would suggest taking a step back and look at the big picture, including the history of this nation and the rest of the world. We are not the innocent good guys we like to think we are. Almost every nation we are having difficulty with can be traced to actions of past administrations. We need to stop being 'Team America, World Police'. The UN was created for a reason, mostly because of US backing, and we need to let it do it's job.
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 09:50 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
No, regretfully I cannot. The Obama campaign and Democrats in general have tried to run a clean(er) campaign, but there is plenty of info on both available. The Obama dirt is easy to find. The McCain dirt would include the Keating association, the circumstances around leaving his first wife, his close ties with lobbyists, his Academy record and standing in his graduating class (bottom 5, not 5%, 5), his lack of vetting in VP choice (and that's a whole new bunch of baggage, but I digress). It's all just smoke and mirrors, as no one can stand up to this kind of scrutiny. The fact remains that there is no doubt we need change, and keeping the same party in control is not the prescription for change. I say that not only looking at their individual policies, but in a historical perspective in general. Change does not happen until the ruling party is dethroned. I firmly believe that neither party should be in charge for longer than 8 to 12 years. In this case, Bush ran that clock out very early.
No, regretfully I cannot. The Obama campaign and Democrats in general have tried to run a clean(er) campaign, but there is plenty of info on both available. The Obama dirt is easy to find. The McCain dirt would include the Keating association, the circumstances around leaving his first wife, his close ties with lobbyists, his Academy record and standing in his graduating class (bottom 5, not 5%, 5), his lack of vetting in VP choice (and that's a whole new bunch of baggage, but I digress). It's all just smoke and mirrors, as no one can stand up to this kind of scrutiny. The fact remains that there is no doubt we need change, and keeping the same party in control is not the prescription for change. I say that not only looking at their individual policies, but in a historical perspective in general. Change does not happen until the ruling party is dethroned. I firmly believe that neither party should be in charge for longer than 8 to 12 years. In this case, Bush ran that clock out very early.
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 10:02 PM by Lucid Lunacy
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
I agree with what you just said. I personally want even more radical change because I am pretty sure the corruption is much deeper.
You say that the Obama dirt is easy to find and there is a lot of info. I am confused then... where can I find it? I am not saying there isn't some, but you said nasty skeletons...
And then the Mcain stuff you mentioned I am mostly familiar with as I have seen it on ATS.
[edit on 12-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]
I agree with what you just said. I personally want even more radical change because I am pretty sure the corruption is much deeper.
You say that the Obama dirt is easy to find and there is a lot of info. I am confused then... where can I find it? I am not saying there isn't some, but you said nasty skeletons...
And then the Mcain stuff you mentioned I am mostly familiar with as I have seen it on ATS.
[edit on 12-10-2008 by Lucid Lunacy]
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 10:05 PM by David9176
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
Good points. I'd also like to point out that i don't think a democratic or republican majority in the house/senate and white house is a good thing for anyone. I've always thought that this country is better off by making things a bit more difficult for both parties to get their agendas across.
Good points. I'd also like to point out that i don't think a democratic or republican majority in the house/senate and white house is a good thing for anyone. I've always thought that this country is better off by making things a bit more difficult for both parties to get their agendas across.
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 10:34 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by Lucid Lunacy
Just hit recent posts and take your pick. Acorn ties, Ayers ties, Kenyan ties, etc. etc. etc.
reply to post by David9176
I totally agree, give one party the White House and the other one the Congress. We can tell from the first six years of the Bush Administration that it's not a good idea to give 'em both. But I do think it might be a good idea to give the dems both for at least the first two years to balance the mistakes of that period. We need Wall Street re-regulated quickly and they will need both branches to do it. Another reason to keep changing the ruling party is to keep the Supreme Court balanced as well. If McCain is elected, we face a court leaning heavily to the right.
Just hit recent posts and take your pick. Acorn ties, Ayers ties, Kenyan ties, etc. etc. etc.
reply to post by David9176
I totally agree, give one party the White House and the other one the Congress. We can tell from the first six years of the Bush Administration that it's not a good idea to give 'em both. But I do think it might be a good idea to give the dems both for at least the first two years to balance the mistakes of that period. We need Wall Street re-regulated quickly and they will need both branches to do it. Another reason to keep changing the ruling party is to keep the Supreme Court balanced as well. If McCain is elected, we face a court leaning heavily to the right.
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 10:52 PM by David9176
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
I disagree with you on the Democrats having complete control. I didnt' like it when the Republicans had it either. It's just bad for the country.
The reason i disagree....the bailout. I freaking hate it. HATE IT. Congress has a 10 percent or so approval rating...it's a joke. And democrats have the majority. There is all kinds of blame to throw around...any who denies this is being too one-sided.
This is what i ask...i know Bush sucked...but how can i expect better from our congress when all they do is make things worse or do nothing at all? I just don't want an all democrat government just like i don't want an all republican one. We've seen what happens...and it's obviously NOT good. I really don't think having a full democratic government is going to undo it.
THey want to pass another stimulus package. Why? The government is already trillions in debt...why make it worse. I wouldn't mind the extra cash..but i'd rather have the problem fixed instead of adding to it. I just don't believe the stimulus packages do much..too many people get it and then blow it on wide screen tv's instead of doing something constructive with it..ya know...like paying bills and debt..lol.
I do respect your opinion and respectfully disagree with you on that one.
[edit on 12-10-2008 by David9176]
I disagree with you on the Democrats having complete control. I didnt' like it when the Republicans had it either. It's just bad for the country.
The reason i disagree....the bailout. I freaking hate it. HATE IT. Congress has a 10 percent or so approval rating...it's a joke. And democrats have the majority. There is all kinds of blame to throw around...any who denies this is being too one-sided.
This is what i ask...i know Bush sucked...but how can i expect better from our congress when all they do is make things worse or do nothing at all? I just don't want an all democrat government just like i don't want an all republican one. We've seen what happens...and it's obviously NOT good. I really don't think having a full democratic government is going to undo it.
THey want to pass another stimulus package. Why? The government is already trillions in debt...why make it worse. I wouldn't mind the extra cash..but i'd rather have the problem fixed instead of adding to it. I just don't believe the stimulus packages do much..too many people get it and then blow it on wide screen tv's instead of doing something constructive with it..ya know...like paying bills and debt..lol.
I do respect your opinion and respectfully disagree with you on that one.
[edit on 12-10-2008 by David9176]
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 11:06 PM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by David9176
I think the Democrats were coerced into the bailout bill. Here's why.
If you say 'Martial Law' to the left, they will panic, and they did. Think about it this way, the Republican President wanted this bill, and the Republican members of congress seemed to oppose it. Could it be to cast a shadow on the Dems? I think the answer to that is yes.
I think the Democrats were coerced into the bailout bill. Here's why.
If you say 'Martial Law' to the left, they will panic, and they did. Think about it this way, the Republican President wanted this bill, and the Republican members of congress seemed to oppose it. Could it be to cast a shadow on the Dems? I think the answer to that is yes.
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 11:21 PM by dragonridr
reply to post by Shades1035
wow you must be one of those people that watches the news to find out whats going on in iraq. I did 2 tours in iraq one with the 101st and 2nd with Tennesse nat guard so i actually know whats happening in iraq as apposed to you. Believe what you will but its people like me that stop reality from slapping you in the face on whats really going on the world. There was proof of wmds however something called politics prevented the white house screaming from the roof tops.
We cant come out and say Syria has them without being willing to invade Syria. Heres another shocker for you Since its common knowledge that he had wmds used when he fought iran, where did they go? Oh never mind go back to your tv its almost time for the news.
Now back to the thread as i stated earlier it doesnt matter which one is elected the true power is congress. Both candidayes can claim whatever they like its not going to happen. What the united states needs is a viable 3rd party. Then politicians would go back to working for the people instead of lobbyists. Im hoping something will occur to let me know who to vote for but as i see it probably wont matter both candidates are bad. Was interested in hillary though i think that would have thrown a wrench in the government.
[edit on 10/12/08 by dragonridr]
wow you must be one of those people that watches the news to find out whats going on in iraq. I did 2 tours in iraq one with the 101st and 2nd with Tennesse nat guard so i actually know whats happening in iraq as apposed to you. Believe what you will but its people like me that stop reality from slapping you in the face on whats really going on the world. There was proof of wmds however something called politics prevented the white house screaming from the roof tops.
We cant come out and say Syria has them without being willing to invade Syria. Heres another shocker for you Since its common knowledge that he had wmds used when he fought iran, where did they go? Oh never mind go back to your tv its almost time for the news.
Now back to the thread as i stated earlier it doesnt matter which one is elected the true power is congress. Both candidayes can claim whatever they like its not going to happen. What the united states needs is a viable 3rd party. Then politicians would go back to working for the people instead of lobbyists. Im hoping something will occur to let me know who to vote for but as i see it probably wont matter both candidates are bad. Was interested in hillary though i think that would have thrown a wrench in the government.
[edit on 10/12/08 by dragonridr]
reply posted on 12-10-2008 @ 11:34 PM by David9176
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
I've seen that clip and i've also seen him do interviews on a few of the news channels. He was completely against it....kudos to him. You are right about the fear mongering...there was definitely some there...not denying that.
Lobbyist hit everyone hard after the house failed the first vote on the bailout bill. The Senate passed it with another 150 billion full of pork and then the house passed it.
i just don't think fear mongering should be an excuse especially after that argument has been made countless times on the Iraq war and how we were feared into doing it.
Do they not learn from prior mistakes? Why didn't they listen to the people? I've stated on this board many times that i won't vote for anyone who voted for that bill.
Unfortunately, both presidential candidates voted for this thing and in this case only i'm going to against that mainly because there's really no other option. If one of them had said no...now THAT would have been change and i think the people would have rallied behind either one if they had done that.
Right now i just don't have trust in our government. I'm on the verge of being laid off or being canned at my job because of this mess. If i lose my job i'm in big trouble and i know that i'm not the only one sailing in that boat.
Terrible times.
I've seen that clip and i've also seen him do interviews on a few of the news channels. He was completely against it....kudos to him. You are right about the fear mongering...there was definitely some there...not denying that.
Lobbyist hit everyone hard after the house failed the first vote on the bailout bill. The Senate passed it with another 150 billion full of pork and then the house passed it.
i just don't think fear mongering should be an excuse especially after that argument has been made countless times on the Iraq war and how we were feared into doing it.
Do they not learn from prior mistakes? Why didn't they listen to the people? I've stated on this board many times that i won't vote for anyone who voted for that bill.
Unfortunately, both presidential candidates voted for this thing and in this case only i'm going to against that mainly because there's really no other option. If one of them had said no...now THAT would have been change and i think the people would have rallied behind either one if they had done that.
Right now i just don't have trust in our government. I'm on the verge of being laid off or being canned at my job because of this mess. If i lose my job i'm in big trouble and i know that i'm not the only one sailing in that boat.
Terrible times.
reply posted on 13-10-2008 @ 12:06 AM by JaxonRoberts
reply to post by David9176
Congress learn from it's mistakes??? Surely you jest! I'm reminded of a quote by Mark Twain: "There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress." But it's all we got! I'm just saying in order to get the banks and markets re-regulated as fast as possible requires Democratic control of both Executive and Legislative branches.
Congress learn from it's mistakes??? Surely you jest! I'm reminded of a quote by Mark Twain: "There is no distinctly American criminal class - except Congress." But it's all we got! I'm just saying in order to get the banks and markets re-regulated as fast as possible requires Democratic control of both Executive and Legislative branches.
reply posted on 13-10-2008 @ 12:17 AM by David9176
reply to post by JaxonRoberts
Lol.
Yeah who am i kidding. They screw up everything they touch, Democrats and Republicans alike.
But i still respectfully disagree with you.
I am voting for McCain...and i'm hoping for something big from him on wednesday. He needs to connect with people and he has yet to do it, but i think he can do it and people are waiting for him to do so.
I know that i'm in the minority, but i don't think he's another GB.
Congress learn from it's mistakes??? Surely you jest!
Lol.
Yeah who am i kidding. They screw up everything they touch, Democrats and Republicans alike.
But i still respectfully disagree with you.
I am voting for McCain...and i'm hoping for something big from him on wednesday. He needs to connect with people and he has yet to do it, but i think he can do it and people are waiting for him to do so.
I know that i'm in the minority, but i don't think he's another GB.
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