The OP claim is suspect in my Opinion. To much evidence to the contrary. However, people see things differently. They were probably on the Russians side of the conflict.

If Cuba started giving out passports and citizenship to all of Florida residents, and then urged Florida to break off, dont you think the US would have a right to do something about that?

Oh right, Bush is evil, So the Georgian President is Evil too.

Originally posted by Marius Blackwood
My gut tells me that article has been sensationalized quite a bit. I cannot imagine tanks wasting ammo by firing into basements to waste a few women and children.

Still, I'm sure much of it is the truth.

Considering that initially there was nothing else for tanks to fire shells at, (i.e. there was no Russian resistance at first), and considering that a tank will have anywhere from 40-70 shells I don't think it's too large of a stretch of the imagination to imagine that a tank might fire a few of those at civilians without fearing too much of a 'waste' of ammo.

well, considering that the battle took place in ossetia, and i have yet to see a single ossetian complaining of russian involvement....
And also the fact that the night before, the georgian govenrment told the ossetians that they would not attack them, and then went ahead and attacked. The interesting thing is that Putin went on television lately in an interview and gave a long and detailed lecture on the history of georgia, ossetia, and the conflict there, begining as far back as the 1800's. It was quite interesting seeing a leader in such a high position deigning to spend the time to educate people on history, and was quite illuminating, not the story, but the fact that a leader would take the time at all. It has been a long time since any american leader has had the patience, or the education, to bother trying to explain the course of events to those he is responsible to. Our president probably couldnt even talk his way through the events of the civil war, or even know the date it started. At any rate, it changes facts not at all that ossetia is a breakaway province, or that russia supports them, it is still a truth that the first deaths were russians and ossetian, and the first murderers were Georgians. In the absence of trade embargos and other such (which are acts of war) that means the initial aggressors are the georgians.

Pexx is absolutely right and there shouldn't be any debate about what happened, even Fox News admits that Georgia attacked the South Ossetians.

Now... i know that i am realy too much of a skeptic... but... here it goes...

Here i my translation of this article...

In a speech before the United Nations last month, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili implored world leaders to set up an international investigation to find out the truth about the war in South Ossetia.

I couldn't agree more. But I think the results of an honest investigation would reveal a very different "truth" than what President Saakashvili claims.

Intro-setting up for a tall tale...

I know this because I was in Tskhinvali, the capital of South Ossetia, on Aug. 7 when Georgian troops marched into the city and killed my friends and neighbors. I huddled with my family in terror for three nights while Saakashvili's tanks and rockets destroyed hundreds of our homes, desecrated cemeteries, gutted schools and hospitals.

I also have good reason not to trust what Saakashvili says. For three days before the attack I had been getting calls from many Georgian friends warning me to get out. They said Saakashvili was planning an attack. Most of the Georgians living in South Ossetia left because they knew what was coming.

Near Tskhinvali, both sides readied them selfs for battle. A situation that has been in tense times for the better point of 15 years.

Ossetian Nationalists dug in, prepared to defend thier city against the incoming Gerogian attack they knew was eventualy going to come.

On the night of Aug. 7, Saakashvili went on television and assured the frightened civilian population of South Ossetia that he would not attack us. This was long after the time Saakashvili now claims Russians had begun "invading" Georgia.

Ossetians went to bed relieved and thankful for a peaceful night.

Less than two hours later, according to credible international accounts, his artillery, bombers, and three brigades of ground troops unleashed what I can only describe as a fierce hell on our city. In the moment, we knew only our fear as we hid. Afterward I spoke with hundreds of Ossetians to find out what was done to us.

My friend's elderly father tried to douse the flames set by Georgian fire on the home he had built with his hands. His leg was severed by shrapnel from Georgian weapons. He bled to death while his disabled wife crawled from their burning home.

Ossetians saw Georgian tanks firing into basements where women and children hid for safety They saw fleeing families shot down by Georgian snipers. We learned that the Georgian military had used Grad rocket systems and cluster bombs against Tskhinvali.

The Georgians attacked on the night of Aug. 7th.. Takeing control of the city by nightfall... (note, the artical tell NOTHING of the battle for the city, or how the Russians aggresivly bombed the city, when they were re-taking the city. Both sides Bombed the city, but the Russians are almost CERATAINLY gaurented to have bombed more, due to the fact that Georgains took the city fairly quickly)

When I came out from hiding, thanking God that the Russians had saved our lives, I was dismayed by the reaction of the international media to what had happened. There was nothing about Ossetian deaths and the unprovoked horrors inflicted by Saakashvili's military. It made my heart sick.

The truth has been crushed by Georgia's powerful public relations machine as mercilessly as Georgian tanks rolled over the defenseless civilians of Tskhinvali.

The person in question had never before seen american media...

I know that Americans are a generous and fair people. But Americans haven't been told the truth about what happened to us. Americans don't understand that Ossetians are an independent, Christian Orthodox people with a deep history in our land. The world talks only about Georgian freedom. What of freedom for my people? Does our suffering, do our voices, mean nothing?

I don't blame the Georgian people for what happened to us. The vast number of Ossetians and Georgians want to live in peace. I blame Georgia's leaders.

Saakashvili has persuaded the world that he is a "beacon" of democracy and openness. But he won't even tell his own people the truth. My Georgian friends weren't allowed to see any Russian news sites during the conflict because all of those sites were blocked by Saakashvili's government.

Sucking up to Americans, and asking for pity...
No mention of the fact that MOST Georgian sites and news outlets were hacked by russians during the battle...

I know we are a small people, and I make no claim to understanding the experts in geopolitics with their theories and pronouncements about the great powers. But I have fought for women's rights in Ossetia for 12 years and I believe in the truth.

In a recent article, Saakashvili cynically dismissed Ossetian suffering and deaths because, he said, Russia had "lied" about how many of my people were killed by the Georgian military.

It breaks my heart to even engage in this discussion. No one – including Saakashvili – knows how many Ossetians were killed by his Army. I have friends who buried loved ones in their backyards because there were no alternatives. Many people are still missing.

Does Saakashvili believe his vicious attack on a civilian city was justified if he only killed a few hundred rather than a few thousand? Do Americans realize that a military trained and equipped by the US government attacked a civilian population as they slept in their beds? Can they justify sending another billion dollars to Georgia and nothing for those Georgia attacked?

I have made an urgent appeal to the world for humanitarian relief for our people at the website helpossetianow.org. I beg the United States and the world to find out the truth. Please hear our voices.

I have a susspicion that this article orginates from Moscow...

The article ignores ALL russian involment in the situation...
Ignores the FACT that South Ossetia is Georgian Territory
Ignores the corosponding Russian Military build up
Ignores the historical Facts surrounding the situation
Ignores Russians policy making in a forgien land



I have finnaly deicided a good way to put this in an American Perspective...


Imagine San Diago breaksaway from the US. Breaks off, has a violent uprising, and throws out all traces of the US goverment from the city.
Now Mexico goes into San Diago, and begins giving citizenship to San Diago people.
Then Mexico recognizes san diago as a country, even though internationaly, it is still US soil
After some time the US decides that it wants to take back thier terriroty because of the geographical advantages of it
So they begin to build up an attack force outside the region.
Mexico reacts by building up their forces near the region, ready to strike
San Diago citizens then flee into mexico
San Diago natioanlists decide to stay in thier city and fight
Then the US forces mmove in and overrun the Nationalists
Then the Mexican army moves in to protect the people they gave citizenship too


The situation is not simple...


so heres my solution...

If South Ossetia wants to be its own nation, do it.
But realise, countries come and go. And they can be absorbed by a neighboring country... if they cannot defend themselves...

reply to TKinoZero:

I try to stay quiet ...but being Polish I can uderstand russian news stations, so no need for translations etc...
We Polish have a lot of sympathy for USA as the guardian of freedom...at least that was the cause till now...I see more and more of my compatriots lose their trust as to what America is actually doing...And of course a lot of Fox style demagogy, repeated by ours leaders...what a shame! We know a demagogy when we hear it: to many lies in the comunistst era.
So example about Cuba or Mexico wrong.
Answer me please what about historic Serb,Christian Kosovo sold to muslim neofits and criminals, not by the Ottoman Turcs...no no by USA...
I have great admiration for Your country, and clearly here I mean on ATS not everybody is happy with new nwo or whatever politics, but to finish: comparing several sources-just radio/tv Im sure that russian intervention in Georgia was much more justified and cleaner that american action in Kosovo!
Even being from nation nearly always in conflict with Russia/USSR and voting for big defensor of Saakashvili , I mean Kaczynski doesnot change the facts I see!!
God Protect You All

tkain, yes, your arguement rests upon the american presupposition that the federal government can enforce its sovereignty upon san diego (california would be a better comparison) due to the fact that the federal government has become massively powerful and exerts that power upon its subject states. However, according to the original constitution, States are supposed to be sovereign, and it is only unlawful usurpation by our federal body that has supplanted their sovereign rights. So it is more like say cali, or texas declaring their independence (which should be their right) and 15 years later the US government invades said sovereign state, and starts killing civilians and bombing civic structures, and then, say mexico or canada coming in to aid said civilians. The rule of Might makes right might say the US government is right, but the right of majority civilians to self determination states that the invasion is wrong. So i suppose it depends upon what you believe. If you believe perchance that those with strength have the right to impose their will upon others then by all means, you can group Georgia in with US, Rome, Ghengis Khan, and all the other powerful aggressors as the "ordained by god as exhibited by power" groups (though georgia failed). If, however, you stand in the category that believes that lands should be run by consensus of the plurality, and that people have a right to self determination, then californians, texans, and Georgians should be able to choose their affiliation, not have that choice made for them by their strongest neighbor, and then criticized for disagreeing. Just my opinion

[edit on 11-10-2008 by pexx421]

Imagine San Diago breaksaway from the US. Breaks off, has a violent uprising, and throws out all traces of the US goverment from the city.

You are ignoring the 1992 peaceagreement, which specifically obliges Russia to keep the peace in South-Ossetia.

Now Mexico goes into San Diago, and begins giving citizenship to San Diago people.

You are ignoring that all CIS memberstates agreed to the citizenship agreement in the beginning of the 90's, which gave all holders of USSR citizenship the right to get ANY one CIS citizenship they desired. The georgians chose georgian citizenship and the South ossetians chose Russian citizenship. Russia did not go into South-Ossetia giving russian citizenship to South-Ossetians.

Then Mexico recognizes san diago as a country, even though internationaly, it is still US soil

Russia has maintained that South-Ossetia is Georgian soil from 1992 to 2008, and every South-Ossetian attempt to declare sovereignty or greater autonomy has been denied by moscow, until now.

After some time the US decides that it wants to take back thier terriroty because of the geographical advantages of it
So they begin to build up an attack force outside the region.
Mexico reacts by building up their forces near the region, ready to strike
San Diago citizens then flee into mexico

South-Ossetians didn't flee into Russia until the georgian bombardment started.

San Diago natioanlists decide to stay in thier city and fight
Then the US forces mmove in and overrun the Nationalists
Then the Mexican army moves in to protect the people they gave citizenship too

Again, Russia did not just go in and offer citizenship to all and sundry.


The problem I have with this example is that you obviously don't know history. And you don't care! You don't research, you just make stuff up! That makes you dangerous, because some people may think you 'know' something when in fact you are simply stating your opinion.

There are some assumptions in your text that are untrue.

Russia did not seek to invade the former memberstates of the USSR during either Yeltzin or Putin. When Belorussia, Kazakhstan, Ukraine and Kyrgyzstan called for removing borders, common currency, common citizenship and for Kyrgystan wanting to become a part of russia, Yeltzins answer was 'NO FREAKING WAY'. Putin was more polite, but essentially said the same thing, although elevating some common issues to CIS status. Lots of americans (John McCain and Barack Obama included) has the stereotypical view that Russia has been trying to expand since the fall of the USSR. This fallacy is based on 'Russia' being perceived as the same as the USSR, completely overlooking the other 14 memberstates of the USSR as well as the referendum in 1989. This means that Russia can be used and is used as the big bad boogieman to scare uninformed people into thinking that Russia is the soviet Union and so everything they do must be bad.

The 1992 peace agreement between Georgia and South-Ossetia specifically obligates Russia to keep a peace-keeping force in South-Ossetia. The georgians agreed to this as they understood that Russa was not interested in destabilising the other former soviet republics, as that would only make their own secessionist regions giddy with anticipation.

I covered the lead-up to the war in South-Ossetia, both the first war and peaceagreement in the thread mentioned above, so I won't go into it again, except to say that care must be taken to be historically accurate in a discussion like this, or we are simply guilty of the same abuses as the mainstream media.

it is sad to me that americans are so out of touch with their intuition that they have a complete inability to be able to seperate the fact from fiction through their own reasoning and logic, and are swayed solely by what they hear from people on the news. This is largely also shown in their inability to look at our current candidates, or any candidates for that matter, and infer their character from the candidates utter lack of wisdom or composure. John Mccain is obviously consumed with anger and ambition, and it amazes me that his supporters cant see this, and recognize the path this will lead us down if he was elected. His complete lack of humanity, composure, wisdom, and his closeminded authoritarian contempt for anyone or anything who disagrees with him surrounds him like an aura, and anyone who fails to see this is looking at him through rose colored shades. Sorry ive gotten off topic here, point being people are so spiritually undeveloped and emotionally immature that they have no compass to be able to look through the lies and "feel" the truth in front of them.

Originally posted by TKainZero
The Georgians attacked on the night of Aug. 7th.. Takeing control of the city by nightfall... (note, the artical tell NOTHING of the battle for the city

And what do you know about the "battle of the city"? There were very few Ossetian combatants inside the city, since most of their military positions were North and West of Tskhinvali. Georgian troops encountered almost no opposition within the city, which explains why they occupied it so quickly. The only noted (reported by both sides) fighting within the city was when a few Ossetian policemen armed with an RPG took out a single Georgian tank, and hit but did not disable a second tank. That was about it within the city.

Please provide sources if you have any.

Originally posted by TKainZero
or how the Russians aggresivly bombed the city, when they were re-taking the city.

Where did you get that? Any proof that Russians bombed Tskhinvali? I have not seen a single bit of proof of what you say from either side.

Originally posted by TKainZero
Both sides Bombed the city, but the Russians are almost CERATAINLY gaurented to have bombed more

Guaranteed by who? What are you basing this stuff on? Bombed more? They didn't bomb the city at all - not according to any media or to any sources.

Originally posted by TKainZero
due to the fact that Georgains took the city fairly quickly)

They took the city quickly because nobody expected their blitz. Even if Russians and Ossetians saw a conflict coming, they weren't ready for organized rapid Georgian attack. This shows just how well Georgia prepared for it. This took months to prepare.

If as you say South Ossetians were well prepared and dug in, why didn't they offer much resistance? Their fighters are much like Chechen guerillas - very adapt to urban hit and run style warefare. On the opposite - it seems like South Ossetians and Russian peacekeepers were caught off guard. Perhaps they truly believed that Georgia wanted a ceasefire.

But Russians did not bomb the city. I don't see where you are getting this stuff. Russia repelled Georgians from the city mostly with ground armor and infantry. The only documented Russian airstrikes were several kilometers South and East of the city - where Georgian armor was retreating. And even that was mostly with helicopters.

Originally posted by TKainZero
Imagine San Diago breaksaway from the US. Breaks off, has a violent uprising, and throws out all traces of the US goverment from the city.

Not an accurate perspective.

Imagine if US has two national languages - English and Californian, and that California has a right as a state to regulate its own laws to a degree.

Now imagine that US decides to ban Californian and impose English as the only language of the country. Then US government decides to take away California's right to be a state, and makes it a federal jurisdiction.

Californians start to protest this. US federal militia tries to put a stop to the protests. Violance erupts.

Originally posted by TKainZero
Then Mexico recognizes san diago as a country, even though internationaly, it is still US soil

Not untill after the US government bombs San Diego, and then rolls around the city in tanks shooting at civilians. Oh yeah - and US also attacked local peacekeepers sanctioned by the UN.

Originally posted by TKainZero
After some time the US decides that it wants to take back thier terriroty because of the geographical advantages of it

You mixed up two time points - Russia recognized South Ossetia as independent only after the recent war.

Originally posted by TKainZero
San Diago citizens then flee into mexico

Actually the citizens don't have time and means to flee the city, due to only one small road leading from it, and limited cars. Only some children have time to flee - everyone else doesn't.

Originally posted by TKainZero
San Diago natioanlists decide to stay in thier city and fight

Only they are not actually in the city, but stationed in military bases outside of the city. All the city has is police.

Originally posted by TKainZero
If South Ossetia wants to be its own nation, do it.
But realise, countries come and go. And they can be absorbed by a neighboring country... if they cannot defend themselves...

Georgia should realize this too. If Saakashvili keeps playing with fire, he is bound to get burned. Sadly his people will suffer as the result.

There is so much disinfo going around nowadays and unfullfill predictions that I am skeptical about everything, unless there is some kind of poof like a video, I would not believe hersay.

Originally posted by wayno
Why is no one calling McCain and Obama on this?
They are both on the wrong side of this issue - so far wrong!
I just do not get it!?!

A. The MSM are puppets

B. The NWO agenda is upheld (covertly) by both sides of the two headed counterfeit coin, thrust into our collective palm by a puppet media, the only purchase of which is NWO.

So, no surprise at all that no one is calling them on it.

Originally posted by Realtruth
What kind of people are these that would kill women and children?

Does compassion exist? Does guilt exist from crimes like this?

Ok i know it's a saying and you didn't make it up. But why not say women, children, and men......So what if you're not a women or a kid, you get shot? Doesn't seem that fair to me...

Oh This is way off topic. Anyway good post!