Stocks Stomped in Financial Freefall

OK, after reading more of your posts Grim, I am beginning to see where you are coming from (I think).

Let's try this.

You believe that by propping up this broken system that we, as a nation, can use this time to effect the changes necessary to put a new system into place to replace the broken one. Correct?

Now this may be a topic for another thread but I would like to know how you think we would go about making those much needed changes to the system.

edited for spelling

[edit on 9-10-2008 by TXPatriot38]

reply to post by tide88


you have a link for that news about Cali. Because i found this article from yesterday saying they might still need a loan.

The Golden State, which recently scrambled to fill a $15 billion budget gap, still may not be able to meet its payroll without help.

there are 31 states according to that article but they list the top 10

reply to post by Mercenary2007


Just heard it on cnbc about a hour ago. Here it is. Schwarzenegger Says Calif. May Be Able To Sell Revenue Notes


[edit on 9-10-2008 by tide88]

reply to post by TXPatriot38


Yes, that is essential what I am calling for. This bailout is going to stop the lending crisis. It is NOT going to solve the larger issue, which is fundamental flaws in our system.

I can honestly say I don't have enough knowledge to determine what needs to be changed to avoid these reoccuring problems. That leads me to believe that most people don't. As a result, we need to find a person/people that do.

This economic crisis happened too late in the game imo. I wish it had happened 6 months ago so we could focus on economics this election. Whoever has the best economic plans, that make the most sense, would be the person we vote for.

We need everyone, as a collective society, to start brainstorming on how to correct the system. I can't figure out a perfect system on my own, and I doubt any one person could. This will take a group effort. An effort which has not been made yet.

This is a situation where implementing the solution isn't nearly as hard as finding one. This situation is, in reality, an age old question. What is the best system. It has become apparent that this system is not it. How can we build off of it to make it better?

That is the question I propose to all people. Everyone is calling to either abolish or change the system...well...how? What changes need to be made? I'd like to do away with the fed, but I am not sure I am knowledgable enough to say with certainity what effects that would have, or how long we would need to phase it out.

I would prefer that somebody with a real solid background in economics, I'm talking a certified expert, to come in an explain what reoccuring themes come about BEFORE the crisises, not just during them.

reply to post by grimreaper797


grim your right none of us can really say we know what needs fixed even though we know the system needs an overhaul at the very least. You will not get someone with a Background in economics to come in here and explain it to us.

They would be afraid to admit that economics is a science not a fact and i really doubt that the so called experts even know what needs to be fixed or what kind of system we could use to replace our broken one.

So i guess either way we could go no one knows what could happen or what needs fixed or what needs completely replaced.

whether you want to admit it or not our little battle the last week or so we both we're right but we both are wrong and i'm man enough to admit it.

I really hope i'm wrong and the bottom is at 7500 on the dow but i just don't see it.

[edit on 10/9/2008 by Mercenary2007]

Was just checking the dow again, 8,579.19 -675.97 / -7.30%
Oct 9 4:07pm ET

money.cnn.com...

www.youtube.com...

fluctuations are healthy. When one market fails, another usually prevails.

is this the worst crisis we have ever seen? no. its it close? maybe 1/3rd of the scale of the great depression, and that was pancakes compared to living durring the Crusades.

thing is, we as humans survived all that and we do alright this time as well.

we still have our logic. no one can take that from you.

[edit on 9-10-2008 by drsmooth23]

[edit on 9-10-2008 by drsmooth23]

reply to post by grimreaper797

The problem with finding a "certified" economics expert to help with a solution is that they will most likely be certified in this system.

Lets do this, if you would like, start a thread on possible solutions and get to brain storming on the best (realistic) ways to fix this. There are some fairly good minds on ATS and we may come up with something that we could actually put out there for the consideration of others (not ATSers).

reply to post by Mercenary2007


I am wrong if I ever said that I knew how to fix the system. I just know that attempting to fix the system is always better than letting it collapse. A collapse should only happen when we no longer have any options. When the system is broken and we cannot fix it under any circumstance with any amount of time.

This system can still be fixed. I would prefer taking a chance with changing the system, then scraping it, along with our quality of life.

I posted this as another thread but I will also post the article here. It talks about the differences between today and the great depression. I for one think it gives hope. The only thing is our country wasnt 11 trillion in debt back then. We Are Not Heading For A Great Depression

A rhetorical question...

If the US Government had come out in 2007 with stern warnings about a
coming financial/market crises in 2008, would people have believed them?
Would the US government have been able to implement any strict
pre-emptive measures with the consent of the public and business
community?

It seems that we hear warnings all the time about hostile countries,
terrorist threats, etc., but many of the measures to prevent a future
attack are fought by special interests groups. The same groups who will
slam the President after the calamity occurs.

Seems that human nature is such that we are more reactive and eager
to assign blame than we are pro-active to nip problems in the bud. Not
only at the government/business level, but in our personal lives as well.
-cwm

reply to post by grimreaper797


This is what I'm saying, but dude: "change" is not enough at this point.

I don't want what you're talking about either. I don't want a collapse. But I don't see it as avoidable, whether now or 150 years from now.

There are plenty of economists who would agree with that assessment. Fiat currency is DOOMED to expand and expand and inflate and deflate to the point of COLLAPSE, Period.

All the things you mentioned in your post about the luxuries we have (video games, etc etc) could be argued to be exactly the tools that were used to promote the system. Distractions. I'm 28, believe me I know about distractions. The left hand has no idea what the right hand is up to.

The system needs an overhaul. If we have to wade through some shyte to get people to see that then so be it. What we need is a return to sound principles and movement away from empty rhetoric and bile.

Again... this is not exactly breaking news. Thomas Jefferson warned us about this, for crying out loud!!!

We were set up. Period. Like bowling pins.

And now, the surrogates and heirs of the snake-oil salesmen who deliberately put us in this position bandy about as if they have the solution; but, they need MORE of our collective wealth to do it.

Can I just say: ...

And your little bit about desire? Yes the Revolution was fought because of desire. A desire tor LIBERTY and the RIGHT to choose and control one's own fate, without Big Government (or in their case, The Crown) telling them exactly when and how to wipe their collective a$$es. The desire to not be robbed. The desire to not be walked upon by those in power.

The same desires are still relevant.

Its the inflation that has killed the average American. Credit crunch my rear. We just got loans for our business. Bank of America told us that they have tons of cash, Its that hardly anyone is asking for loans because nobody has money to pay them back. People are just not seeking loans because they are broke.

Every business around here in Florida is hurting very bad, Tons of people are getting laid off. I had to take a 50% pay cut or we were going to shut down for lack of business. We have been in business since 1976 and it has never been this bad so whats that all tell you. I have watched the prices go up 400 percent on most products that we sell, All since Bush took office.

Many people would not have walked away from their homes if the cost of living wasn't so much along with raises in short supply for years. The price of Insurance here in Florida is also doing it. If you get dropped by a decent company then you will only be able to get Citizens insurance at a criminal rate of $5000.00 per year in most cases when your old policy may have been around $1200.00.

I vote that the Yankees try and overthrow the government this time as us Southerners say its your turn Besides you all live closer. On a serious note, When are we going to have a General stand up and put a stop to this madness? The elected crooks in D.C. are not doing the bidding of the American people besides the fact that they are giving away all of our money to everyone but us.

Nothing will save it this time, It will collapse completely and then here comes the Anti-Christ.

Investors are just like impatient kids on Christmas Eve, according to MSN Money:

Investors want immediate gratification from the measures the Federal Reserve and Treasury have taken to stop the bleeding in the financial crisis, but several traders are urging patience, saying that it will take time for results to work their way into the financial markets and actually boost confidence.

Source: articles.moneycentral.msn.com...

Instant gratification - not going to happen. We didn't get into this mess overnight and we sure as hell aren't going to get out of it overnight. I'm surprised investors are so acting so stupid as to demand "instant gratification" for something of this magnitude.

Originally posted by The Axeman
This is what I'm saying, but dude: "change" is not enough at this point.

Well a collapse is change, its just the absolute wrong change that we need right now.

I don't want what you're talking about either. I don't want a collapse. But I don't see it as avoidable, whether now or 150 years from now.

There are plenty of economists who would agree with that assessment. Fiat currency is DOOMED to expand and expand and inflate and deflate to the point of COLLAPSE, Period.

I don't believe that fiat currency is the sole cause to our problems.

All the things you mentioned in your post about the luxuries we have (video games, etc etc) could be argued to be exactly the tools that were used to promote the system. Distractions. I'm 28, believe me I know about distractions. The left hand has no idea what the right hand is up to.

No, they aren't destractions, they are entertainment. I play video games, I watch movies often, but I'm not distracted. It is people that simply don't want to involve themselves because it doesn't effect them right now. Yesterday it was baseball, today its halo.

Choose your getaway, people have been doing it for centuries. Theater has been around for centuries. People can't be serious 100% of the time. Many people just think they don't have to care any percent of the time.

That is not because of entertainment.

The system needs an overhaul. If we have to wade through some shyte to get people to see that then so be it. What we need is a return to sound principles and movement away from empty rhetoric and bile.

and you will NEVER get there if this system collapses, mark my words. This country will NEVER see fair and sound principles if we collapse. It will be just the opposite. We will have militaristic and imbalanced principles that will promote rapid growth and oppressive policy.

And your little bit about desire? Yes the Revolution was fought because of desire. A desire tor LIBERTY and the RIGHT to choose and control one's own fate, without Big Government (or in their case, The Crown) telling them exactly when and how to wipe their collective a$$es. The desire to not be robbed. The desire to not be walked upon by those in power.

The same desires are still relevant.

I could just as easily argue the desire was for greed and the ability for the rich to not be so burdened by the people that ruled over them. Take a look at A Peoples History of The United States before you assume that the revolution was all honorable.

All I am saying is that desire is how progression is made. Desperation is how progress is destroyed. Collapse leads to desperation.

Well, the TED spread is going off the charts laides and gents. All experts are expecting a full blown default and all american debt within the next days...

Better batten down your hatches... it just broke a historic record today!

The TED spread is an indicator of perceived credit risk in the general economy. This is because T-bills are considered risk-free while LIBOR reflects the credit risk of lending to commercial banks. When the TED spread increases, that is a sign that lenders believe the risk of default on inter-bank loans (also known as counterparty risk) is increasing. Inter-bank lenders therefore demand a higher rate of interest, or accept lower returns on safe investments such as T-bills. When the risk of bank defaults is considered to be decreasing, the TED spread decreases.

Look for yourself:

www.bloomberg.com...:IND

Hmmm... the URL is not get correctly interpreted. Here is the link:

www.bloomberg.com/apps/cbuilder?ticker1=.TEDSP:IND





[edit on 9-10-2008 by Terrapop]

[edit on 9-10-2008 by Terrapop]

reply to post by grimreaper797

A collapse should only happen when we no longer have any options. When the system is broken and we cannot fix it under any circumstance with any amount of time.

This system can still be fixed. I would prefer taking a chance with changing the system, then scraping it, along with our quality of life.

i agree with that. But all the options that has been tried to at least slow it down to buy us time is failing, its not slowing fall its speeding up the fall.

i honestly think we are close to that line of last resort. the fed started dipping into the anti depression playbook yesterday but i think it was too little too late.

Yes the government should have stepped in 14 months ago before the snowball built up the steam it has now. now instead of dealing with a snowball we are dealing with an avalanche, the dow is dropping to levels we have seen in years,

we've passed the crash of 87, we are now comparing this to the great depression, but really this is a whole new animal and we can't compare now to then its like comparing apples to oranges

but a suggestion to start the fixes, congress needs to reimpose the regulation and oversight that they have striped out.

There are sectors of the market that aren't even regulated at all. no one even has a clue how much value they hold or how much they are to blame in the cause of this mess. we need to step into those sectors and open the books to them and see really what they damage is that has been done.

The CEO's that we're at the helm leading up to the sub-prime mess and those still at the helm that are helping to continue the mess should be held accountable, their assets should be seized and their salary should really be looked at, did they really deserve those huge salaries for bankrupting their companies.

The Companies that created this mess should be banned from managing the bailout bill. corruption breads corruption, and the taxpayers are on the hook for the bill if it fails.

the treasury should be limited to paying no more than .60 on the dollar for the toxic assets its going to buy with our money. when the treasury sells the assets, if they are sold for less than what the treasury paid for them, then congress should have the authority to put a lean against the bank those assets were bought from to recover that loss. i'm not saying the government should take control of the banks, and i'm not saying they recoup the loss all at once, but they should recoup the loss from the banks profits with interest.

then we need to look at our system and see what is working and what is completely out dated and come up with solutions to fix the outdated areas

reply to post by Sky watcher


SkyWatcher, thankyou for taking the time to explain what is happening
there in Florida and how it has affected you personally. The one thing
that's been missing from the local news here in Chicago is how the
economic issues are affecting everyday citizens. In fact, you'd think
that there was no meltdown/collapse in progress because everything
from the building industry, to people leaving on vacations, seems to be
quite normal in this area. Maybe Chicago will experience by year end
what you're experiencing right now. Thanks again for an enlightening
account. -cwm

reply to post by Sky watcher


I agree 100%. I live here in southwest florida and own a painting company. I have had to lay everyone off and am now just painting by myself. We have the 5 worst job loses in the country. Of course most of the jobs here were construction. The only positive thing about my area is there are tons of extremely weathy people still having work done, although they want it done for pennies. I still have a positive outlook, even though I have only had about 4 jobs in the last 4 months. A lot of time off to make money other ways.

This market has to correct itselft. The DOW must fall. Its been over inflated for years.

On a side note: look at the price of oil, they are so afraid of a US recession and people consuming less gas that the price is falling....oh and it is getting close to election time as well.