God is an Abortionist!, page 3

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reply posted on 27-10-2008 @ 07:40 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I'm not asking the question 'why does God permit suffering'.

but you are in a way. a miscarriage is painful. from what i understand, you are asking what if any involvement does god have in a situation like that.

i mean think about it a second, if god takes babies away, does this mean he takes young children who die? what about adults? where's the line?

if a priest says that god took the baby away, then does this mean that god is involved with bad happenings in our life?

most people dont understand the answer because its very complex and has alot of factors that affect it.

for example, the bible says everyone are sinners, and deserve death. does this mean that we can expect god's protection? does it mean that god is heartless?

its a big big question. (im almost tempted to start a new thread on it)

reply posted on 27-10-2008 @ 07:55 AM by Good Wolf

That may very well be, but lets not twist this debate away from the "God is an abortionist" discussion.

After all it's one thing to give an adult/teenager or even child cancer which eventually kills them, but killing someone before they are even born is ether completely pointless or a very cruel way of making a point.

Let me ask it again: Is god willing to kill an unborn baby to prove a point of teach a lesson (taking into account the damage that occurs from miscarriage)?

reply posted on 27-10-2008 @ 12:28 PM by Myrtales Instinct

Originally posted by Good Wolf
But you said:

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Everything that happens to you, happens for a reason. As stories have morals, the things we go through in life have deep spiritual lessons, that are saddled up next to them.

So what is it? Is he responsible or not? If he isn't then what is he responsible for?

You think God is to blame, and I don't.

You are putting words in my mouth. I don't think God is to blame, I'm just arguing from that POV.
I am agnostic, after all. I'm not convinced there is a God, let alone a personal God. Not that that has anything to do with this.

He is responsible enough to have given you a way back to him, so you can realize the truth that's found in him, and then you'll awaken from this land of the "spiritually dead" and know for a fact, that the true nature of life is only found in him. Your flesh counts for nothing and you haven't even begun to really live yet.

And I'm not putting words into your mouth, the only reason I said you are blaming the wrong person is because you used words like "sick and demented" and "not the works of a good being" to defend your point of view.

Let's just face it, you don't like my POV. I see spiritual lessons everywhere and in everything I do and if I know for a fact, that all I go through brings me closer to him, then I am able to logically ration that others are experiencing life lessons too even though they may not be aware of it.

I guess it boils down to what each individual is aware of. I know inconsolable grief - I've been there and I've done that, but I also know the one that consoles is greater than any moment of grief that can be found in my lifetime. He's that powerful.

And I know it.

reply posted on 27-10-2008 @ 12:42 PM by Good Wolf

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

Oh come on. "I know it." You believe it, nothing more.

It's not your POV that I don't like, it's the fact that you haven't actually offered a solution to my challenge. All you've tried to do is shift the goal posts and try to justify your belief in a God, which is not something I'm interested in.

You last post offered nothing in the way of relevant answers.

reply posted on 27-10-2008 @ 02:06 PM by Myrtales Instinct

reply to post by Good Wolf

Your failure to listen is why it seems irrelevant. And "oh come on" is your excuse.

There is not one thing wrong with my original post about morals of stories and spiritual lessons being embedded in the things we go through in life.

God is not an abortionist, but if the death of a child happens to bring a person a bit closer to God, so be it. If he chose to keep my handicapped newphew around so my I.V addicted drugged out sister could learn, in an attempt to wake her ass up to let her know, that life's just a little bit more precious than what she takes it for, then so be it.

Your arguement holds no merit with me. You may have given up on him long ago, but I hung around long enough that he provided me with the truth that you once longed for.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply posted on 27-10-2008 @ 02:22 PM by riley

Originally posted by Myrtales InstinctIf he chose to keep my handicapped newphew around so my I.V addicted drugged out sister could learn, in an attempt to wake her ass up to let her know, that life's just a little bit more precious than what she takes it for, then so be it.

Keep your nephew "around"? So are you saying that god did not abort her son so she could be punnished for being a drug addict? Are you saying that his handicap was some sort of punnishment?

I know I'm blunt but it sounds like you think the only reason your nephew was born was to straighten your sister out. That implies his life is secondary to hers.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by riley]

reply posted on 27-10-2008 @ 05:23 PM by Myrtales Instinct

Originally posted by riley

Originally posted by Myrtales InstinctIf he chose to keep my handicapped newphew around so my I.V addicted drugged out sister could learn, in an attempt to wake her ass up to let her know, that life's just a little bit more precious than what she takes it for, then so be it.

Keep your nephew "around"? So are you saying that god did not abort her son so she could be punnished for being a drug addict? Are you saying that his handicap was some sort of punnishment?

I know I'm blunt but it sounds like you think the only reason your nephew was born was to straighten your sister out. That implies his life is secondary to hers.

So now I have to define what I meant by keeping my nephew around?Lol

"he chose to keep my handicapped nephew around"

Will it be enough for you if I say he doesn't have a very long life expectancy? He has stunted growth and his organs are outgrowing his body. You know the soft spots little babies are born with - his never closed. He's got massive problems. It's been almost 2 years that we have been trying to have him removed from the home because even though he's going to die at some point, we hate thinking that he is constantly put in to positions where he can't help himself. He can't run if the house is on fire. He can't say "no" when she drives high with him. He can't work a toaster to fix himself some poptarts, while she's in some sort of Soma Coma in the mornings. He can't even properly bath himself, let alone get into a tub/shower without a serious risk of losing his balance and falling.

You have no idea how hard we have tried to have him removed from the home. Social Services is of no help. We report, they deny us. We take a hygiene warrant, the court seals it. He's not secondary - his life is primary. All I was ever saying is that he's the only thing keeping her grounded to what little bit of reality is in her life.

Hopefully you now better understand what I meant by keeping him around.

[edit on 27-10-2008 by Myrtales Instinct]

reply posted on 27-10-2008 @ 08:55 PM by Good Wolf

reply to post by Myrtales Instinct

You've done well to tiptoe around this issue. But that's all you have done.

And I didn't give up on God, but came to my senses. I'm waiting on him to show up for once. That seems fair.

reply posted on 28-10-2008 @ 05:49 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by Good Wolf
Let me ask it again: Is god willing to kill an unborn baby to prove a point of teach a lesson (taking into account the damage that occurs from miscarriage)?

you are not making the connection between unborn babies dying and suffering in general.

to answer your question a simple as possible: no, god is not willing to kill an unborn baby to teach a lesson.

reply posted on 28-10-2008 @ 06:08 AM by Good Wolf

reply to post by miriam0566

That's a bit irrelevant, the responsibility for the suffering in the world and the responsibility for miscarriages specifically are two very different things.

I mean I have a choice to pull the trigger or all the other facets that suffering takes, but there is very little a woman can do to cause or prevent miscarriage outside of staying reasonably healthy- the rest, they can't help, it comes down to circumstance - which is Gods realm of influence (if he exists).

Let's flip the coin. Who causes the circumstances of the majority of male sterility? Most men have never had any influence over whether or not they are fertile (outside of that snipsnip operation).

reply posted on 28-10-2008 @ 07:47 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by Good Wolf
I mean I have a choice to pull the trigger or all the other facets that suffering takes, but there is very little a woman can do to cause or prevent miscarriage outside of staying reasonably healthy- the rest, they can't help, it comes down to circumstance - which is Gods realm of influence (if he exists).

but it's not in the realm of god's influence. thats my point.

if humans deserved god's protection, there would be no miscarries

reply posted on 28-10-2008 @ 07:55 AM by Good Wolf

So you hold that God does not orchestrate our lives like a play write. Well that's fine, you've answered the question from your standpoint.

The problem prominently falls in the lap of those how feel that the events of their lives are for a specific purpose. Like the "She's the one" delusion.
For them God governs almost completely through circumstance.

reply posted on 28-10-2008 @ 07:59 AM by riley

Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
So now I have to define what I meant by keeping my nephew around?Lol

"he chose to keep my handicapped nephew around"

Will it be enough for you if I say he doesn't have a very long life expectancy?

I thought you were saying that he was kept alive just to be a burden on your sister. Thankyou for clarifying.

He has stunted growth and his organs are outgrowing his body. You know the soft spots little babies are born with - his never closed. He's got massive problems. It's been almost 2 years that we have been trying to have him removed from the home because even though he's going to die at some point, we hate thinking that he is constantly put in to positions where he can't help himself. He can't run if the house is on fire. He can't say "no" when she drives high with him. He can't work a toaster to fix himself some poptarts, while she's in some sort of Soma Coma in the mornings. He can't even properly bath himself, let alone get into a tub/shower without a serious risk of losing his balance and falling.

You have no idea how hard we have tried to have him removed from the home. Social Services is of no help. We report, they deny us. We take a hygiene warrant, the court seals it. He's not secondary - his life is primary. All I was ever saying is that he's the only thing keeping her grounded to what little bit of reality is in her life.

Hopefully you now better understand what I meant by keeping him around.

Are you able to take her to court and ask to have guadianship yourself? I'm also wondering.. did she do drugs when she was pregnant with him?

reply posted on 28-10-2008 @ 12:57 PM by miriam0566

Originally posted by Good Wolf
So you hold that God does not orchestrate our lives like a play write. Well that's fine, you've answered the question from your standpoint.

The problem prominently falls in the lap of those how feel that the events of their lives are for a specific purpose. Like the "She's the one" delusion.
For them God governs almost completely through circumstance.

sorry

i didnt realise you were talking to a specific group.

reply posted on 12-11-2008 @ 10:28 AM by Anonymous ATS

Hi, Clearskies- Thanks so much for an amazingly honest post. God (both He & She) is not the reason that bad things happen; They have a great deal of trouble keeping up with the evil that people do.

I am an incest survivor; my primary abuser was my mother. I tried to kill myself to get away from her.

God ( I call Her "Mom"- She's the only One I've ever had) brought me back to life. She told me it wasn't my fault that I had tried- that I was mentally ill & that I was Hers, not my birth mother's. All the while that She was telling me, She was raising me from a nightmarish place that could only have been the belly of the Beast.

I have the right medicine for depression now, and Joyce, my birth mother, is dead & in Hell where she belongs.

Anyone can make a mistake. I don't in any way blame or condemn you for making one. I thank both you & the Gods that you admitted it, & also told of the demon you saw during your abortion. There are such things; people are in denial to say otherwise.

All my best wishes to you & your family- Deianera

reply to post by Clearskies

reply posted on 12-11-2008 @ 03:37 PM by Clearskies

reply to post by Anonymous ATS

I just saw this anonymous.
Thank you for the kind words. Not seen on here much, except for friends.
I'm sorry for what happened to you. You (FOR YOURSELF) need to forgive that woman, (as hard as that seems), but, do it in your heart and mind FOR YOUR OWN sake.
You're better than what happened to you!
I don't think I included my past belief in God being a woman, but, because of abuse by men, I thought God HAD to be a woman. Only a woman could care, I thought.
Then, I heard the gospel on T.V. by a preacher out of Marrietta.
I asked God, "If you CARE about women, show me."
Then I opened my Bible and saw the truth. I was not chattel to be used and discarded by man.
I asked Jesus to forgive me, for everything. He did and I've had hope and change for 14 years.
Thank you.

reply posted on 12-11-2008 @ 05:18 PM by PreTribGuy

reply to post by miriam0566

eccl 9:[11] I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

imperfect mankind lives outside the protection of god. While god does from time to time intervene if its suits a specific purpose, most of the time bad things happen as a consequence of our actions, or by us just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

This is a terrible explanation from you, Miriam. It makes the Lord's Prayer into nothing more than an "empty idea".

"Deliver us from EVIL" means something! To imply that we (ALL...everyone...from Christians to not even close...) are subject to "accidents" implies that God is NEGLECTFUL in watching over His children. The man who sees his son/daughter running into the street in front of an oncoming truck and does NOTHING about it is no dad at all.

Jesus promised FREEDOM from these "accidents":

Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Apart from His crucifixion, does Scripture record that Jesus ever had a cold? Stubbed his toe? Does Scripture ever record a single apostle ever suffering an "accident" that wasn't ordained by God?

I reject this premise, Miriam. Your quote from Eccl. implies that ALL of humanity is under this randomness and I deny that. Scripture says otherwise. Even the verse you quoted has attributes (given to men) that are never praised for protection.

Example (emphaisis mine):

Eccl 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

compared with:

1 Cor 1:26-29 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

I reject the idea that God allows "random accidents" to happen to His children.

reply posted on 12-11-2008 @ 06:07 PM by PreTribGuy

reply to post by miriam0566

for example, the bible says everyone are sinners, and deserve death. does this mean that we can expect god's protection? does it mean that god is heartless?

its a big big question. (im almost tempted to start a new thread on it)

Go for it. I'd like to participate.

reply posted on 12-11-2008 @ 06:30 PM by PreTribGuy

reply to post by Good Wolf

For them God governs almost completely through circumstance.

I actually kinda like this quote.

Romans 8:28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

This promise is not given to the entire human race, but to them that love God AND to them who are CALLED. The wolves like being around sheep. No-one calls the wolves. They just see "easy prey".

Trees randomly fall on wolves. The wolves often get caught in snares left by the Shepherd of the Sheep. Wolves RUN at any threat to them. The Great Shepherd takes care of His Sheep and not a single one out of 100 gets lost without the Shepherd going looking for it/he/she.

The lost Sheep is in no danger from the wolves nor the world. If Jesus is LOOKING for them, they WILL be found. When a wolf goes "astray"...trees fall...snares trap them...and we haven't even began to talk about "roadkill". There is no protection given to WOLVES. The Shepherd can kill any wolf that is going to harm His sheep.

reply posted on 15-11-2008 @ 03:03 AM by miriam0566

Originally posted by PreTribGuy
"Deliver us from EVIL" means something! To imply that we (ALL...everyone...from Christians to not even close...) are subject to "accidents" implies that God is NEGLECTFUL in watching over His children. The man who sees his son/daughter running into the street in front of an oncoming truck and does NOTHING about it is no dad at all.

then way do christians die? why do they get sick? why do they hurt like everyone else?

"deliver us from evil" is not this daily thing that god does every day in our imperfect lives. the deliverance is god's plans for the future.

the isrealites begged for deliverance from pharoah, but didnt they have to work hard first. it was AFTER the 10 plagues that they were delivered and supplied for.

today we are living in the last days. armageddon is deliverance. until then, we suffer just like anyone else. but we have faith that god will undo all the things that go wrong.

Jesus promised FREEDOM from these "accidents":

Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

yes, in the future. you mention in the quote after that jesus never suffered except when god allowed him to. this is 100% true. but jesus was perfect. he not only deserved to live, but he also deserved protection. we are imperfect sinners, we deserve death. it is by the mercy of god that we are still alive.

Apart from His crucifixion, does Scripture record that Jesus ever had a cold? Stubbed his toe? Does Scripture ever record a single apostle ever suffering an "accident" that wasn't ordained by God?

paul shows a list. including a "thorn in the flesh" that god chose not to relieve him of. the apostles experienced miracle too, but they also suffered, sometimes by the consequences of thier sin and sometimes but time and unforseen occurance. most of the times god intervene was so that the preaching work could continue. not for personal gain.

I reject this premise, Miriam. Your quote from Eccl. implies that ALL of humanity is under this randomness and I deny that. Scripture says otherwise. Even the verse you quoted has attributes (given to men) that are never praised for protection.

Example (emphaisis mine):

Eccl 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.

compared with:

1 Cor 1:26-29 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.

I reject the idea that God allows "random accidents" to happen to His children.