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Originally posted by Good Wolf
I'm not asking the question 'why does God permit suffering'.
Originally posted by Good Wolf
But you said:
Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
Everything that happens to you, happens for a reason. As stories have morals, the things we go through in life have deep spiritual lessons, that are saddled up next to them.
So what is it? Is he responsible or not? If he isn't then what is he responsible for?
You think God is to blame, and I don't.
You are putting words in my mouth. I don't think God is to blame, I'm just arguing from that POV.
I am agnostic, after all. I'm not convinced there is a God, let alone a personal God. Not that that has anything to do with this.
Originally posted by Myrtales InstinctIf he chose to keep my handicapped newphew around so my I.V addicted drugged out sister could learn, in an attempt to wake her ass up to let her know, that life's just a little bit more precious than what she takes it for, then so be it.
Originally posted by riley
Originally posted by Myrtales InstinctIf he chose to keep my handicapped newphew around so my I.V addicted drugged out sister could learn, in an attempt to wake her ass up to let her know, that life's just a little bit more precious than what she takes it for, then so be it.
Keep your nephew "around"? So are you saying that god did not abort her son so she could be punnished for being a drug addict? Are you saying that his handicap was some sort of punnishment?
I know I'm blunt but it sounds like you think the only reason your nephew was born was to straighten your sister out. That implies his life is secondary to hers.
Originally posted by Good Wolf
Let me ask it again: Is god willing to kill an unborn baby to prove a point of teach a lesson (taking into account the damage that occurs from miscarriage)?
Originally posted by Good Wolf
I mean I have a choice to pull the trigger or all the other facets that suffering takes, but there is very little a woman can do to cause or prevent miscarriage outside of staying reasonably healthy- the rest, they can't help, it comes down to circumstance - which is Gods realm of influence (if he exists).
Originally posted by Myrtales Instinct
So now I have to define what I meant by keeping my nephew around?Lol
"he chose to keep my handicapped nephew around"
Will it be enough for you if I say he doesn't have a very long life expectancy?
He has stunted growth and his organs are outgrowing his body. You know the soft spots little babies are born with - his never closed. He's got massive problems. It's been almost 2 years that we have been trying to have him removed from the home because even though he's going to die at some point, we hate thinking that he is constantly put in to positions where he can't help himself. He can't run if the house is on fire. He can't say "no" when she drives high with him. He can't work a toaster to fix himself some poptarts, while she's in some sort of Soma Coma in the mornings. He can't even properly bath himself, let alone get into a tub/shower without a serious risk of losing his balance and falling.
You have no idea how hard we have tried to have him removed from the home. Social Services is of no help. We report, they deny us. We take a hygiene warrant, the court seals it. He's not secondary - his life is primary. All I was ever saying is that he's the only thing keeping her grounded to what little bit of reality is in her life.
Hopefully you now better understand what I meant by keeping him around.
Originally posted by Good Wolf
So you hold that God does not orchestrate our lives like a play write. Well that's fine, you've answered the question from your standpoint.
The problem prominently falls in the lap of those how feel that the events of their lives are for a specific purpose. Like the "She's the one" delusion.
For them God governs almost completely through circumstance.
eccl 9:[11] I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
imperfect mankind lives outside the protection of god. While god does from time to time intervene if its suits a specific purpose, most of the time bad things happen as a consequence of our actions, or by us just being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
for example, the bible says everyone are sinners, and deserve death. does this mean that we can expect god's protection? does it mean that god is heartless?
its a big big question. (im almost tempted to start a new thread on it)
For them God governs almost completely through circumstance.
Originally posted by PreTribGuy
"Deliver us from EVIL" means something! To imply that we (ALL...everyone...from Christians to not even close...) are subject to "accidents" implies that God is NEGLECTFUL in watching over His children. The man who sees his son/daughter running into the street in front of an oncoming truck and does NOTHING about it is no dad at all.
Jesus promised FREEDOM from these "accidents":
Luke 13:1-5 There were present at that season some that told him of the Galilaeans, whose blood Pilate had mingled with their sacrifices.
2 And Jesus answering said unto them, Suppose ye that these Galilaeans were sinners above all the Galilaeans, because they suffered such things?
3 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
4 Or those eighteen, upon whom the tower in Siloam fell, and slew them, think ye that they were sinners above all men that dwelt in Jerusalem?
5 I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.
Apart from His crucifixion, does Scripture record that Jesus ever had a cold? Stubbed his toe? Does Scripture ever record a single apostle ever suffering an "accident" that wasn't ordained by God?
I reject this premise, Miriam. Your quote from Eccl. implies that ALL of humanity is under this randomness and I deny that. Scripture says otherwise. Even the verse you quoted has attributes (given to men) that are never praised for protection.
Example (emphaisis mine):
Eccl 9:11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all.
compared with:
1 Cor 1:26-29 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called:
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
I reject the idea that God allows "random accidents" to happen to His children.