Originally posted by zman
Where is the natural law of thought in that. As far as I am concerned, it all crap until a working model is place so we can discern the proper way of moral thought. What I see with this scam is the control of you and your thoughts or be programed to think that way, Being an individual and having my own thoughts and moral values, I can not see it ever working or ever producing a product that will benefit the whole. I say its a scam, one because it does not have a working model, and it is a type of system that like a pryamid. If you are at the top of the triangle you will benifit from this, but if you are the one desinated to clean the toilets of the ones on the top , where is the freedom to be the ones at the top of so said program and project.

Originally posted by zman
What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.

Originally posted by Worldmind

Originally posted by zman

Once again, that is the society you live in now. This society we live in is a hierarchy (pyramid) based upon money and intimidation, and what you describe is a hierarchy, but the Zeitgeist Movement's vision is to have a world without hierarchies. Hierarchies are anti-survival in the long run, both for the individual caught up in them, and the species as a whole. Hierarchies limit adaptation too much to survive by limiting decision making to just the few at the top and whatever they know about what they are facing. Humanity has to be smarter than that.

Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.

Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.

Originally posted by zman

Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision.

No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.



[edit on 12-4-2009 by Worldmind]

Originally posted by Worldmind

Originally posted by zman

Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.

I do have a choice. Live or die. Yeah tell me about the machine that cleans toilets and the person who services it.


Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.

So, you are saying most people do not want a large family. Or is that just you.

Originally posted by zman
What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.

Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision.
No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.

No laws equals total anarcy.




[edit on 12-4-2009 by Worldmind]

Originally posted by Worldmind
Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.

posted by zman
I do have a choice. Live or die. Yeah tell me about the machine that cleans toilets and the person who services it.

Originally posted by Worldmind
Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.

Originally posted by zman
So, you are saying most people do not want a large family. Or is that just you.

Originally posted by zman
What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.

Originally posted by Worldmind
Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision. No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.

Originally posted by zman
No laws equals total anarcy.

Sorry but your view of this project is totaly wrong. Please go to the re-education room. You will see that most people will disagree with you and with me on any given project. It could be anything, size, color, looks, shapes, programs and a range of items. Computers that tell you what is right must be programed from a sourse of laws and a programer does not always have the correct answer. Where do these correct answers lie?.

Originally posted by Worldmind
Well, since you seem determined to engage me in this discussion, and at least your questions and comments below seem more rational, I will join you.

Ok I am here to help. As I have lived just as long as you and have been involved in the process of life like you.

Originally posted by Worldmind



Actually, the toilets will clean themselves. There are many such designs now, so do a search. I expect we will come up with better ones over time. As for servicing... probably robots will service them if they cannot repair themselves. That is also being done now, but it's just started to become possible.

No self cleaning toilets are available as they have no funds to purchase them. As a matter of fact the are looking for funds for almost everything they need. Would not it be better for us to take those ideas and apply them to our daily life, instead of trying to make a go there in one place.

Originally posted by Worldmind
Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.

They seem to take things from books, like the one the founder wrote, its on the web page for the venus project. Quote from that e-book - : The world that Scott and Hella live in is a world that has achieved Full Weather control, has developed a finger-sized computer that is implanted into the brain of every baby at birth. They also mention the fact that she did not have to go through painful childbirth having it artifically.

Originally posted by zman
So, you are saying most people do not want a large family. Or is that just you.

No, the population figures of the countries of the world show this. The USA, for instance is in the negative range now, with any population growth coming from immigration, legal and illegal. The poorer the country, the higher it's birthrate. This is apparently because there is little else to do after dark when people have no lights or electricity and because even in starvation, the ability to reproduce is naturally biologically higher.


This is because it takes so many resources to raise a family no a days, I come from a big family.

Originally posted by zman
What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.

Originally posted by Worldmind
Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision. No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.

See I have a problem with what you say they say and what is the vision written in the books they want you to read , example : Quote from the e-book -: The chief source of this greater society is the Correlation Center “Cocen,” a gigantic complex of computers that serves but never enslaves mankind. Concen regulates production, communication, transportation and all other monotonous tasks of the past.

(should have called it concern. I am, how about you)
They want to use automated computer program that does not figure into human nature. This is what they will use according to that web site venus project. Who wrote the program and who overseas the judgement.

Originally posted by zman
No laws equals total anarcy.

Yes, that's right. Anarchy has the same root as monarchy... monarchy meaning 'rule by a king' and Anarchy meaning 'no rule by a king'. People ruling other people is an idea whose time has long passed. Coordination and liberty is the idea which has replaced it.

Accually liberty and free will cause proplems, as we are human and to error on occation. With a set of moral laws and human rights should be listed, but they will rely of a cold harted computer program, no figuring in the human nature and spirit.



There are two factors involved in all decisions, including those kinds of questions. First is 'what is possible' and second 'what do people want'.

Then the humans come into the decision making process. Nobody will ever give all decision making completely to the computer and that is not what is being proposed. And with modern technology, everyone will be able to get into the decision making process together. What Jacque Fresco has imagined is his vision, what will finally come about will be 'our' vision together.

Oh it is proposed , a large computer complex, please go back and re-read the work already done. Lets se most people and I mean at least 75 percent, do not agree with either you or I. So take that into the equation and rework the math to get to the final computer print out of we are wrong.


The existing system grew up over thousands of years of mind control and control of all resources necessary for life by elites who used violence and intimidation to produce the results they wanted. The ZM is about ending all that and doing something a lot freer.

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Worldmind]

Yes, and it will be for a long time. The person who made up this new world they call the venus project will not let themselves be pushed out of the making of so said project. What most fail to realize is the human factor. To understand and to be able to make the right answers and Decisions concerning the whole. Its impossible. People are free willied and will do what is best for them and not some project that has all for one and one for all living. This reminds me of system put in place called Iron Mountain, google that why you are at it. Its cold heartless like a computer for answers to how things should be.
Since this is just you and I here discussing this scam, and I really do think that is what it is, because it does not get into the human factor and spirit of self when confronted with tasks that require carefull handling. Computers have errors, computers have no feelings, and who programed the massive complex they will have to run things.

To many questions and yet no viable answers. You really have to dig into the mindset of the leaders who started this, please take a look at Iron Mountain and read the books that are at the web site for venus project. Is that really how YOU would what to be controlled?

posted by zman
No self cleaning toilets are available as they have no funds to purchase them. As a matter of fact they are looking for funds for almost everything they need. Would not it be better for us to take those ideas and apply them to our daily life, instead of trying to make a go there in one place.

posted by zman
They seem to take things from books, like the one the founder wrote, its on the web page for the venus project. Quote from that e-book - : The world that Scott and Hella live in is a world that has achieved Full Weather control, has developed a finger-sized computer that is implanted into the brain of every baby at birth. They also mention the fact that she did not have to go through painful childbirth having it artificially.

Originally posted by Worldmind
No, the population figures of the countries of the world show this. The USA, for instance is in the negative range now, with any population growth coming from immigration, legal and illegal. The poorer the country, the higher it's birthrate. This is apparently because there is little else to do after dark when people have no lights or electricity and because even in starvation, the ability to reproduce is naturally biologically higher.

Originally posted by zman
This is because it takes so many resources to raise a family no a days, I come from a big family.

Originally posted by Zman
See I have a problem with what you say they say and what is the vision written in the books they want you to read , example : Quote from the e-book -: The chief source of this greater society is the Correlation Center “Cocen,” a gigantic complex of computers that serves but never enslaves mankind. Concen regulates production, communication, transportation and all other monotonous tasks of the past.

(should have called it concern. I am, how about you)
They want to use automated computer program that does not figure into human nature. This is what they will use according to that web site venus project. Who wrote the program and who overseas the judgement.

Originally posted by Worldmind

posted by zman
No self cleaning toilets are available as they have no funds to purchase them. As a matter of fact they are looking for funds for almost everything they need. Would not it be better for us to take those ideas and apply them to our daily life, instead of trying to make a go there in one place.

Well, right now committees of people, corporate or government, who don't even know us makes all kinds of decisions as to what choices we have. And you can see the way the world is. You have a better suggestion, then join the movement and put it out into the mix. It's a very new thing, and there is room for many good ideas. Jacque Fresco is 86 years old and the ZM is not a rigid hierarchial organization. Good ideas have more weight than 'authority' and if I have my say, it will stay that way.

And Human Nature is every way people can be, not just the negative ways. And the bell curve of distribution exists in that also. The top of the curve in that bell curve can change position, changing the fringes also. We're not trying to create an Utopia, just a better world for everyone. And we are going to do it without intimidation or force, through education and technological design. There is no necessity or inevitability that there be some kind of corruption at the top or even a top to become corrupt. Without intimidation, there is none of that kind of power to cause corruption.

run out of space. Let's start over with a new message and new questions and comments.

Originally posted by Kraigam
I read a lot of these messages on the Zeitgeist/Venus Project thing.
Interesting. I've been following it, the Venus Project.
I like the idea. I see the communist connection, and the anarchist connection.
Though, they are both, scary and poisoned words.

They had no police force, and no crime, unless you count the criminals, fascist republicans who came from Madrid in 1939.
They had worker managed factories. No concept of money, everything was done by barter. On the youtube videos, a Catalan did point out that it was the absence of money, that attributed to the absence of crime.

Jacque Fresco in his faq claims it is not communism. Either he misunderstands the word and/or fears it. It is right to be feared. Stalin and Lenin with the help of the US destroyed communism in Russia, turned it into "state capitalism" which is what people currently "understand" communism to be. I really want to make sure.

Originally posted by Worldmind

Originally posted by Kraigam
I read a lot of these messages on the Zeitgeist/Venus Project thing.
Interesting. I've been following it, the Venus Project.
I like the idea. I see the communist connection, and the anarchist connection.
Though, they are both, scary and poisoned words.

They had no police force, and no crime, unless you count the criminals, fascist republicans who came from Madrid in 1939.
They had worker managed factories. No concept of money, everything was done by barter. On the youtube videos, a Catalan did point out that it was the absence of money, that attributed to the absence of crime.

Jacque Fresco in his faq claims it is not communism. Either he misunderstands the word and/or fears it. It is right to be feared. Stalin and Lenin with the help of the US destroyed communism in Russia, turned it into "state capitalism" which is what people currently "understand" communism to be. I really want to make sure.

It is not communism. It is a tendency of modern mind to pigeonhole anything new into a previous concept or philosophy. It could just as easily pigeonholed into Christianity, since the bible said "All who believed held all things in common, sold what they had, and gave to the many, and so each man received what he needth." (something like that, anyway)

But it's not that either.

The Zeitgeist Movement is not about bringing into existance an 'ism'. It's about the use of technology in a comprehensive way on a global scale. It's about using the scientific method for making decisions. It's about the ability of computer to take in large blocks of data and produce workable answers.

It's about giving people their lives back, giving them a much higher level of initiative, a far better ability to bring their dreams into existence, give them far more time to do what they want to do, and the tools of education and technology to create what they want to create.

It's not about controlling people's lives, implanting anything on or in them, having computers control them, setting up new hierarchies or elites to replace those who rule them now, or turning people into drones.

Children have dreams about what they want to do in life. By the time they are teenagers, they learn the ugly truth... instead of 'you can do anything you want in life' they learn 'you can do anything you can afford to do in life' and to afford to do anything, you have to spend your time doing what you are told to do, in order to get the money.

Every idea they want to do, they hear... "where's the money going to come from?" And they figure out they are to be wasted, used, and manipulated, nothing more.

And for every idea they have to change things to a better way, they hear... 'Never happen ...because those with money, power, etc, will stop you.'

Communism is an ideology. To live in a Communism, you have to agree to the ideology. The Zeitgeist Movement is not an ideology, you don't have to believe in the same things to be part of it.

Buckminster Fuller came up with a way to measure labor. He said a single 'energy slave' (ES) is what an uneducated slave can do in one day bare handed. Each American has the equivalent of 2k ES at his disposal because of the leverage of technology. But the technology is not comprehensive, so it messes up the environment. The same number of ES, if used more efficiently, could provide the same work, but without the environmental destruction. The richest kings of the past only had a few hundred ES, and the serfs had, at best, 1 or 2 ES. Most 3rd world individuals, right now, have .80 ES, so they are screwed. The ZM wants to give everyone 5, 10, 20k ES, which will end human labor as we know it. Which would give people more freedom and wealth than anytime in history. No utopia involved. No ideology involved. No intimidation involved. Just a longer lever that benefits everyone.

Originally posted by zman
Wow, chill out world mind, because 75 percent do not agree with you. I post what I see, and what I post is true. Show me where I am not true instead of just saying it. I posted what was on that web site per word of what it said. Prove me wrong.

Originally posted by zman
I am here to have people understand that it is a scam, you still have not proven it is not, have not showed us the bylaws it functions on. I have shown you and everyone what its all about from the very web page that promotes it. I feel that I am a service to those who want to understand what it is all about, and so far you have failed to answer any of my questions regarding The Venus Project.

Originally posted by zman
So I took it upon myself to go to that web site and get the underlying theme and see what type of laws it wants to impose on the people who want to live in a computer controlled system.Why is that mean spirited?

Originally posted by zman
I am just saying what I feel and showing the people where to look for information concerning this scam.

Originally posted by Worldmind

Originally posted by zman

Once again, that is the society you live in now. This society we live in is a hierarchy (pyramid) based upon money and intimidation, and what you describe is a hierarchy, but the Zeitgeist Movement's vision is to have a world without hierarchies. Hierarchies are anti-survival in the long run, both for the individual caught up in them, and the species as a whole. Hierarchies limit adaptation too much to survive by limiting decision making to just the few at the top and whatever they know about what they are facing. Humanity has to be smarter than that.

Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.

Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.

Originally posted by zman

Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision.

No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.



[edit on 12-4-2009 by Worldmind]

Originally posted by zman
I am so sorry you are so wrong in your thinking about a scam that is never ever going to happen. You sir are insulting me and what I feel about this system. Why is that, you are so mean spirited and hatefull about any other system and idea. You say machines will do all the work, well who is going to make the machines?