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My take on Zeitgeist: Addendum and The Venus Project. Please read!

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posted on Apr, 12 2009 @ 11:26 PM
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Originally posted by zman
Where is the natural law of thought in that. As far as I am concerned, it all crap until a working model is place so we can discern the proper way of moral thought. What I see with this scam is the control of you and your thoughts or be programed to think that way, Being an individual and having my own thoughts and moral values, I can not see it ever working or ever producing a product that will benefit the whole. I say its a scam, one because it does not have a working model, and it is a type of system that like a pryamid. If you are at the top of the triangle you will benifit from this, but if you are the one desinated to clean the toilets of the ones on the top , where is the freedom to be the ones at the top of so said program and project.


Once again, that is the society you live in now. This society we live in is a hierarchy (pyramid) based upon money and intimidation, and what you describe is a hierarchy, but the Zeitgeist Movement's vision is to have a world without hierarchies. Hierarchies are anti-survival in the long run, both for the individual caught up in them, and the species as a whole. Hierarchies limit adaptation too much to survive by limiting decision making to just the few at the top and whatever they know about what they are facing. Humanity has to be smarter than that.

Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.

Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.


Originally posted by zman
What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.


Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision.

No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.



[edit on 12-4-2009 by Worldmind]




posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 07:49 AM
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Originally posted by Worldmind

Originally posted by zman


Once again, that is the society you live in now. This society we live in is a hierarchy (pyramid) based upon money and intimidation, and what you describe is a hierarchy, but the Zeitgeist Movement's vision is to have a world without hierarchies. Hierarchies are anti-survival in the long run, both for the individual caught up in them, and the species as a whole. Hierarchies limit adaptation too much to survive by limiting decision making to just the few at the top and whatever they know about what they are facing. Humanity has to be smarter than that.

Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.

Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.


Originally posted by zman



Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision.

No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.



[edit on 12-4-2009 by Worldmind]


Again, where are the laws and rules located to look at and read and understand. Labor by machine???. You have to be kidding me. From what I can see, and from what you have shown us, that its all our labor to do all things. Who is going to provide the farming, industry, and judgement for errors in judgement???. Hey once you have a working model, let us discern what is right and what is wrong, you can play arm chair quarterback with any system we have now, and that is what you are doing. Instead of having a program available to look at and judge you are not letting us be that arm chair quaterback. Its a scam. Anybody with a sence of mind can tell you what needs to be fixed in any system of government. Since you have not provided us and want us blindly to follow your system of government, please show us the government you want us to follow, and if you can not, then you are a scam. I can tell you if you can show us the laws ands regulations you whould want such a sociaty to follow then it would be picked apart as you have picked apart all other forms of government and systems. This is why it is a scam. You fail as a system, and you do not want the followers to understand the system. This is as bad as any other system of control. Machines do our work for us, what a scam that is. No system in place, no machines to do any type of work at all. Its like your followers are so into living a life of nothing to do and sitting on there butts. What type of life is that?. Where is the recreational value and where are the vehicles that burn up tires and create thrills for fun. You would in this system, control that behavoir I am sure. No thrill seekers wanted. Electro shock treatment centers that take out that behavoir. SHOW US THE LAWS AND REGULATIONS. Thats all we ask. Anyone with a sense of mind will tell you you are a scam.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 10:13 AM
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What the Venus Project will not allow. Based on the fact I see none posted anywhere.

www.youtube.com... That’s right folks no more buying on ebay.
www.youtube.com... Me white and nerdy person.

www.youtube.com... My car or my Little Deuce Coupe. www.youtube.com... .
www.youtube.com... Can’t have this type of behaviors.
www.youtube.com... Can’t be self-sustaining like this man.
www.youtube.com... Can’t be a sharp dressed man.

www.youtube.com... Can’t believe in any religion.

www.youtube.com... Can’t do the things you want to do.

www.youtube.com... Is this the Venus Project?
www.youtube.com... Dam arm chair quarter Backs. How can they be so hard.
www.youtube.com... Can’t have this behavior.
www.youtube.com... Nope can’t have this either.
www.tu.tv... We are all apart of a chain, of dna.
www.youtube.com... Oh did I forget. No religion
www.youtube.com... No more finding your own mate, they provide mates with provided DNA matches.
video.google.com... No more having a good time in a place of business.
www.youtube.com... No more drive inns.
www.youtube.com... What is going on with this project that has no rules and laws. This song would never have happened if the songwriter never went to church.
www.youtube.com... I am sorry this is not accepted in this Venus project. No religion, astrology, or anything man likes.
Where are the laws and rules in such a program?



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 04:12 PM
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So to you, if I understand your messages, a society is a list of rules and laws, right?

If there is no list of rules and laws, then there is no society, it's just a scam right?

And if we don't supply you with any list of rules and laws, then we have outlawed everything you make up as rules and laws, right?

There will be one rule... Do not harm other people.

The rest of what you are saying is total bs made up by you for your ego fear.

You cannot imagine it, therefore it cannot exist.

This is my last entry in this thread. You are doing a great dis-service to those who read this by saying the Zeitgeist Movement will do terrible draconian things to people, which are deliberate lies you, in your ignorance, are putting out to a public forum.

Whatever... we know better. We will do it despite what you say. And we will not harm nor limit the freedom of others, much less brainwash anyone, just because you say we will. When you decide to face your fear and become reasonable, you will be welcome to live as you like in the freedom we will create.

But you won't be allowed to harm anyone.

That's the bottom line.



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 04:26 PM
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reply to post by Worldmind
 


Your New home at the Venus Project (www.thevenusproject.com... ) Nature has evolved the dome configuration as the most efficient enclosure for the human brain; thus, it could be said that we all live in domes! .

There is no business like dome business I know. Everybody sing ok.


Phase 3: The building of a new experimental city.

If our project appeals to a sufficient number of people and enough funds are made available, it will be directed toward the building of the first university city. The size and complexity of the city would depend on the funds available.

SOOO it needs money to work. I had to laugh at that.

Q: In this new culture do you propose to utilize a technical elite that would decide the direction for society?
A:No. The Venus Project calls for a cybernated society in which computers could replace the outmoded system of electing politicians that, in most cases, represent the entrenched vested interests.

Wow computers that are prone to a virus or a small program can determine your choice of official that is in charge. (Diebold anyone)

Q: How does The Venus Project deal with incentive? Doesn't the competitive money system generate incentive?
A: The free-enterprise system does create incentive to achieve, however it also breeds the incentive for corruption, graft, and greed. Our aim is to encourage a new incentive system, one no longer directed toward the shallow and self-centered goals of wealth, property, and power. Today, financial barriers place enormous limitations on innovation, individual creativity, and personal incentive. In The Venus Project, money would not be required to help one achieve or create, as facilities would be made available to serve everyone's needs.

Hmm in the first question it says he needs funds to build, and here it states money would not be required. What’s up, yes or no on the money question.

Q: Why the emphasis on the cybernated approach to the social operation?
A: There is sufficient evidence to show that technology is evolving in this direction. As computers and artificial intelligence continue to evolve through environmental feedback, computers can arrive at more appropriate decisions in the operation of our social system. Today, automated systems can launch and guide the flight path of spaceships to distant planets. In a cybernated society with sophisticated technology, we will ultimately surpass the need for human participation in government, manufacturing, and distribution of goods and services. Through cybernated systems, a balanced-load economy can easily be maintained. This will free human beings from the boring and monotonous tasks of the work-day world. Yes, most jobs will eventually be phased out.

Loud buzzer please.. Wrong , machines have no emotions. It’s like the coldest life ever if you are being judged by a computer (along with a virus and small program that does not give the correct answer).

Q: What will people do?
A:They will engage in all manner of research and development, the creative arts and crafts, travel and exploration, and participation in all of the other limitless horizons the future has to offer. The ultimate realization of the potential of cybernated and computerized technology solely to improve people's lives could produce the most revolutionary system ever to evolve. It will eventually eliminate all superficial boundaries set up by nations; as we are beginning to witness with the introduction of satellite communication and personal computers, it is almost impossible for nations today to censor ideas and information.

But can we rotate our tires on pavement and make a loud squealing sounds.

Q: What actions do you recommend people take to prepare for the future?
A: Well, a lot of people are going to school today to learn a profession that will probably be obsolete in the next few years. Frank Ogden says that parents often ask him what profession their children should prepare for. His response is: "A profession that you've never heard of."

Like fixing the toilet-cleaning machine.



[edit on 4/13/2009 by zman]



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 04:27 PM
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Q: What are the safeguards against abuse of power in the society you envision?
A:
There are many who fear the installations of cybernated systems. This fear is unfounded. It is not technology that is to be feared. Our concern should be with the abuse of this technology, rather than with the inanimate technology itself.

Fear, dam right skippy. Abused technology and the technology to lobotomize you too.

Q: You place great emphasis on human behavior as opposed to human nature. Would you define both?
A:There is no such thing as human nature in the conventional sense of being a set of predetermined, preprogrammed behaviors and values to which all human beings are predisposed. What we are concerned with is human behavior and values, which can certainly be changed. If they could not, we would still be living in caves.

Yeah you’ll have us living in man made caves.

The question we should be concerned with is: What are the factors that shape human behavior? We feel that human behavior is just as lawful as any natural phenomenon. Our customs, behaviors, and values are by-products of our culture. If the environment is unaltered, similar problems and behaviors will reoccur. The Venus Project proposes to provide an environment that will bring out the best in human behavior and to extend maximum courtesy to all nations.

Ok, what if it does not. Flee to the mountains folk. The UAV has missiles.

Take, for example, the situation witnessed after W.W. II: even the most respectable families could be seen fighting over scraps of food. When people's basic needs are not met, they resort to whatever behavior is necessary to ensure the necessities of life for themselves and their families. By making the necessities of life available to all in this participatory democracy and through a meaningful and productive education, we can dramatically reduce counterproductive behavior.

The victors of World War 2 had provided food shelter and laws to live by. Pretty much better than they where during and before the war.

Q: One last question. What about religion?
A:The concepts presented by The Venus Project are in no way inconsistent with most of the religious teachings of the world. Perhaps the major difference is that we would like actually to transform these lofty ideals into a working reality for the nations of our planet.
In closing, to achieve this new social design, it will require much voluntary, unselfish participation for it's realization. The future does not depend solely on The Venus Project. We only propose a direction. Our future depends on the decisions we make today.

Oh they are very inconsistent than your approach. Different in cultures and in laws, which I see none. What is up with that, total anarchy? Oh, yes the computer programmed to judge you. Lets see the penalties ok. Oh , no jail time just re-education. Hmm what does that entail?. You want to know why they do not list that important to me detail?. Because, it will scare the crap out of you.


[edit on 4/13/2009 by zman]



posted on Apr, 13 2009 @ 05:03 PM
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Originally posted by Worldmind

Originally posted by zman





Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.

I do have a choice. Live or die. Yeah tell me about the machine that cleans toilets and the person who services it.


Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.

So, you are saying most people do not want a large family. Or is that just you.





Originally posted by zman
What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.


Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision.
No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.

No laws equals total anarcy.




[edit on 12-4-2009 by Worldmind]


Sorry but your view of this project is totaly wrong. Please go to the re-education room. You will see that most people will disagree with you and with me on any given project. It could be anything, size, color, looks, shapes, programs and a range of items. Computers that tell you what is right must be programed from a sourse of laws and a programer does not always have the correct answer. Where do these correct answers lie?.



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 03:00 PM
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Well, since you seem determined to engage me in this discussion, and at least your questions and comments below seem more rational, I will join you.


Originally posted by Worldmind
Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.



posted by zman
I do have a choice. Live or die. Yeah tell me about the machine that cleans toilets and the person who services it.


Actually, the toilets will clean themselves. There are many such designs now, so do a search. I expect we will come up with better ones over time. As for servicing... probably robots will service them if they cannot repair themselves. That is also being done now, but it's just started to become possible.


Originally posted by Worldmind
Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.



Originally posted by zman
So, you are saying most people do not want a large family. Or is that just you.


No, the population figures of the countries of the world show this. The USA, for instance is in the negative range now, with any population growth coming from immigration, legal and illegal. The poorer the country, the higher it's birthrate. This is apparently because there is little else to do after dark when people have no lights or electricity and because even in starvation, the ability to reproduce is naturally biologically higher.


Originally posted by zman
What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.



Originally posted by Worldmind
Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision. No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.



Originally posted by zman
No laws equals total anarcy.


Yes, that's right. Anarchy has the same root as monarchy... monarchy meaning 'rule by a king' and Anarchy meaning 'no rule by a king'. People ruling other people is an idea whose time has long passed. Coordination and liberty is the idea which has replaced it.



Sorry but your view of this project is totaly wrong. Please go to the re-education room. You will see that most people will disagree with you and with me on any given project. It could be anything, size, color, looks, shapes, programs and a range of items. Computers that tell you what is right must be programed from a sourse of laws and a programer does not always have the correct answer. Where do these correct answers lie?.


There are two factors involved in all decisions, including those kinds of questions. First is 'what is possible' and second 'what do people want'.

Then the humans come into the decision making process. Nobody will ever give all decision making completely to the computer and that is not what is being proposed. And with modern technology, everyone will be able to get into the decision making process together. What Jacque Fresco has imagined is his vision, what will finally come about will be 'our' vision together.

The existing system grew up over thousands of years of mind control and control of all resources necessary for life by elites who used violence and intimidation to produce the results they wanted. The ZM is about ending all that and doing something a lot freer.

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Worldmind]



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 03:47 PM
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Originally posted by Worldmind
Well, since you seem determined to engage me in this discussion, and at least your questions and comments below seem more rational, I will join you.

Ok I am here to help. As I have lived just as long as you and have been involved in the process of life like you.



Originally posted by Worldmind



Actually, the toilets will clean themselves. There are many such designs now, so do a search. I expect we will come up with better ones over time. As for servicing... probably robots will service them if they cannot repair themselves. That is also being done now, but it's just started to become possible.

No self cleaning toilets are available as they have no funds to purchase them. As a matter of fact the are looking for funds for almost everything they need. Would not it be better for us to take those ideas and apply them to our daily life, instead of trying to make a go there in one place.


Originally posted by Worldmind
Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.


They seem to take things from books, like the one the founder wrote, its on the web page for the venus project. Quote from that e-book - : The world that Scott and Hella live in is a world that has achieved Full Weather control, has developed a finger-sized computer that is implanted into the brain of every baby at birth. They also mention the fact that she did not have to go through painful childbirth having it artifically.



Originally posted by zman
So, you are saying most people do not want a large family. Or is that just you.


No, the population figures of the countries of the world show this. The USA, for instance is in the negative range now, with any population growth coming from immigration, legal and illegal. The poorer the country, the higher it's birthrate. This is apparently because there is little else to do after dark when people have no lights or electricity and because even in starvation, the ability to reproduce is naturally biologically higher.


This is because it takes so many resources to raise a family no a days, I come from a big family.



Originally posted by zman
What is the acceptence of how many and what laws do they use, is it the old law of one that has never worked or some universal law that 75 percent of world view is different that yours. Its a scam for your labor and mind. You do the labor, they control your mind.



Originally posted by Worldmind
Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision. No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.



See I have a problem with what you say they say and what is the vision written in the books they want you to read , example : Quote from the e-book -: The chief source of this greater society is the Correlation Center “Cocen,” a gigantic complex of computers that serves but never enslaves mankind. Concen regulates production, communication, transportation and all other monotonous tasks of the past.

(should have called it concern. I am, how about you)
They want to use automated computer program that does not figure into human nature. This is what they will use according to that web site venus project. Who wrote the program and who overseas the judgement.



Originally posted by zman
No laws equals total anarcy.


Yes, that's right. Anarchy has the same root as monarchy... monarchy meaning 'rule by a king' and Anarchy meaning 'no rule by a king'. People ruling other people is an idea whose time has long passed. Coordination and liberty is the idea which has replaced it.

Accually liberty and free will cause proplems, as we are human and to error on occation. With a set of moral laws and human rights should be listed, but they will rely of a cold harted computer program, no figuring in the human nature and spirit.



There are two factors involved in all decisions, including those kinds of questions. First is 'what is possible' and second 'what do people want'.

Then the humans come into the decision making process. Nobody will ever give all decision making completely to the computer and that is not what is being proposed. And with modern technology, everyone will be able to get into the decision making process together. What Jacque Fresco has imagined is his vision, what will finally come about will be 'our' vision together.

Oh it is proposed , a large computer complex, please go back and re-read the work already done. Lets se most people and I mean at least 75 percent, do not agree with either you or I. So take that into the equation and rework the math to get to the final computer print out of we are wrong.


The existing system grew up over thousands of years of mind control and control of all resources necessary for life by elites who used violence and intimidation to produce the results they wanted. The ZM is about ending all that and doing something a lot freer.

[edit on 14-4-2009 by Worldmind]


Yes, and it will be for a long time. The person who made up this new world they call the venus project will not let themselves be pushed out of the making of so said project. What most fail to realize is the human factor. To understand and to be able to make the right answers and Decisions concerning the whole. Its impossible. People are free willied and will do what is best for them and not some project that has all for one and one for all living. This reminds me of system put in place called Iron Mountain, google that why you are at it. Its cold heartless like a computer for answers to how things should be.
Since this is just you and I here discussing this scam, and I really do think that is what it is, because it does not get into the human factor and spirit of self when confronted with tasks that require carefull handling. Computers have errors, computers have no feelings, and who programed the massive complex they will have to run things.

To many questions and yet no viable answers. You really have to dig into the mindset of the leaders who started this, please take a look at Iron Mountain and read the books that are at the web site for venus project. Is that really how YOU would what to be controlled?



posted on Apr, 14 2009 @ 06:04 PM
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posted by zman
No self cleaning toilets are available as they have no funds to purchase them. As a matter of fact they are looking for funds for almost everything they need. Would not it be better for us to take those ideas and apply them to our daily life, instead of trying to make a go there in one place.


Ever hear of economy of scale? And innovation? And Donation? There was no money to do anything that has happened already but the money was donated. People will pay, even in the existing conditions, to see their dreams come true. Any effort would require funds to start, no matter what it was.


posted by zman
They seem to take things from books, like the one the founder wrote, its on the web page for the venus project. Quote from that e-book - : The world that Scott and Hella live in is a world that has achieved Full Weather control, has developed a finger-sized computer that is implanted into the brain of every baby at birth. They also mention the fact that she did not have to go through painful childbirth having it artificially.


Some will, some won't. Full bell curve applies to everything. But they will have the choice regardless of the limiting factors now existent. Isn't that more freedom?


Originally posted by Worldmind
No, the population figures of the countries of the world show this. The USA, for instance is in the negative range now, with any population growth coming from immigration, legal and illegal. The poorer the country, the higher it's birthrate. This is apparently because there is little else to do after dark when people have no lights or electricity and because even in starvation, the ability to reproduce is naturally biologically higher.


Originally posted by zman
This is because it takes so many resources to raise a family no a days, I come from a big family.


And resources would be far less a problem after the Transformation. And a full bell curve applies to that also. Some will, some won't. But they will have the choice regardless of money or resources.


Originally posted by Zman
See I have a problem with what you say they say and what is the vision written in the books they want you to read , example : Quote from the e-book -: The chief source of this greater society is the Correlation Center “Cocen,” a gigantic complex of computers that serves but never enslaves mankind. Concen regulates production, communication, transportation and all other monotonous tasks of the past.

(should have called it concern. I am, how about you)
They want to use automated computer program that does not figure into human nature. This is what they will use according to that web site venus project. Who wrote the program and who overseas the judgement.


Well, right now committees of people, corporate or government, who don't even know us makes all kinds of decisions as to what choices we have. And you can see the way the world is. You have a better suggestion, then join the movement and put it out into the mix. It's a very new thing, and there is room for many good ideas. Jacque Fresco is 86 years old and the ZM is not a rigid hierarchial organization. Good ideas have more weight than 'authority' and if I have my say, it will stay that way.

And Human Nature is every way people can be, not just the negative ways. And the bell curve of distribution exists in that also. The top of the curve in that bell curve can change position, changing the fringes also. We're not trying to create an Utopia, just a better world for everyone. And we are going to do it without intimidation or force, through education and technological design. There is no necessity or inevitability that there be some kind of corruption at the top or even a top to become corrupt. Without intimidation, there is none of that kind of power to cause corruption.

run out of space. Let's start over with a new message and new questions and comments.



posted on Apr, 15 2009 @ 07:36 AM
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Originally posted by Worldmind

posted by zman
No self cleaning toilets are available as they have no funds to purchase them. As a matter of fact they are looking for funds for almost everything they need. Would not it be better for us to take those ideas and apply them to our daily life, instead of trying to make a go there in one place.



Well, right now committees of people, corporate or government, who don't even know us makes all kinds of decisions as to what choices we have. And you can see the way the world is. You have a better suggestion, then join the movement and put it out into the mix. It's a very new thing, and there is room for many good ideas. Jacque Fresco is 86 years old and the ZM is not a rigid hierarchial organization. Good ideas have more weight than 'authority' and if I have my say, it will stay that way.

And Human Nature is every way people can be, not just the negative ways. And the bell curve of distribution exists in that also. The top of the curve in that bell curve can change position, changing the fringes also. We're not trying to create an Utopia, just a better world for everyone. And we are going to do it without intimidation or force, through education and technological design. There is no necessity or inevitability that there be some kind of corruption at the top or even a top to become corrupt. Without intimidation, there is none of that kind of power to cause corruption.

run out of space. Let's start over with a new message and new questions and comments.


We all know that the system of comerce is broken. When things become more difficult this summer and into the fall to maintain one self and family members , there will be changes that may seem like socialism. Having a voice and using your mind to help you and others who will need your help is most assencial. I do not look into the future for the answers, but tend to look in the past for problems and solutions to those problems. Most likely something like the Venus project will not happen and those promoteing it will be arrested for treason. The system of laws and governent was needed and will be needed not just to guide but to make sure everyone has a fair chance to make their life work. I see that the planet pluto and other influences from cultures where like this durring the last revolution. I am aware of energy that is free and the control of corporate controlled government to supress it.
You tell me you want you or your child to be implanted with this computer and you want this big computer system complex to make your life esayier for you?.
I say freedom of thought and freedom of control of your life is what is needed for all to be prosperous and if not prosperous then substainable. Your liberty to do what you think is right is great as long as it does not harm others, but to have a computer tell you your liberty and its form of justice is just wrong.
For those who control the program and have input into its software will be the ones who control you and your family.The government we had before 1913 was self substaining and just. Even corporations had just laws imposed on them to do the will of the people. This insured proper protection from them. Now look around and tell me what you see. I believe if given the chance the government can right itself and and only if they follow the will of the people and the consitution of the USA. I have seen the world consitution on web sites promoted by the UN, and i tell you its much worse than the one we have with more constrants and control than ever. This summer and fall will tell what direction we as a nation will follow. Hardships for sure, as the venus project does NOT tell you that in the beginning there are always hardships to overcome and that is not in the software in the system for human consumption and spirit.


[edit on 4/15/2009 by zman]



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 02:25 AM
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I read a lot of these messages on the Zeitgeist/Venus Project thing.
Interesting. I've been following it, the Venus Project.
I like the idea. I see the communist connection, and the anarchist connection.
Though, they are both, scary and poisoned words.
Communism if it could ever exist, as it never has for more than 3 years.
The only communist country, truly communist, was Catalonia. Ironically, it was the anarchists in the Spanish civil war, and not the communists in that war, who created a truly communist society. They also called themselves Libertarian Communists.
It was identical to what Jacques Fresco proposes. They didn't have technology on their side. Though, what really did them in, in the end was, they didn't have the appetite for war on their side. Vigilance in the defense of liberty.

Look up "spanish anarchism" on youtube.

They had no police force, and no crime, unless you count the criminals, fascist republicans who came from Madrid in 1939.
They had worker managed factories. No concept of money, everything was done by barter. On the youtube videos, a Catalan did point out that it was the absence of money, that attributed to the absence of crime.

Jacque Fresco in his faq claims it is not communism. Either he misunderstands the word and/or fears it. It is right to be feared. Stalin and Lenin with the help of the US destroyed communism in Russia, turned it into "state capitalism" which is what people currently "understand" communism to be. I really want to make sure.

As for the labor issue, given the population of the world, and most cities, states, countries, areas, with the right education, there can be adequate labour provided by each person working 2-6 hours a day, with no unemployment.

Jacque's age does, however, trouble me. Not poking fun or insults at him, but I don't believe he can possibly live another 20 years if he's that lucky. I hope he's mentoring a student.

I would like to find out how to get involved with this project. And it does need some capital. We need some rich visionaries. But it usually doesn't work out that way. Overall, and don't anyone take offense if you are rich, but overall, rich people tend to be bastards. But this can be overcome. Ironic that you need money to create a society without money.

Speaking of anarchy, as I did up there; I could say, I am a pacifist anarchist, and the p-word does help alleviate fear of the a-word. But non-violence is the most powerful weapon know to man. Problem is, its ironically, like a gun, it doesn't work unless you use it. How can we get enough people to have the courage to passively resist and say "I won't" F-I-W Has anyone read the story where I got that from? I'm not afraid of death, I don't send out engraved invitations mind you, but, can we get enough people to conquer the fear of death?
Ironically, Christians seem to fear death the most. Why is that? Such a contradiction.
Also, I guess you could say I do, however, have religious beliefs, not of any particular religion, a combination of many religions and my own. My own religion is, my own, btw. You can't have it, get your own.


Peace,
Kraig



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 11:26 AM
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Originally posted by Kraigam
I read a lot of these messages on the Zeitgeist/Venus Project thing.
Interesting. I've been following it, the Venus Project.
I like the idea. I see the communist connection, and the anarchist connection.
Though, they are both, scary and poisoned words.

They had no police force, and no crime, unless you count the criminals, fascist republicans who came from Madrid in 1939.
They had worker managed factories. No concept of money, everything was done by barter. On the youtube videos, a Catalan did point out that it was the absence of money, that attributed to the absence of crime.

Jacque Fresco in his faq claims it is not communism. Either he misunderstands the word and/or fears it. It is right to be feared. Stalin and Lenin with the help of the US destroyed communism in Russia, turned it into "state capitalism" which is what people currently "understand" communism to be. I really want to make sure.


It is not communism. It is a tendency of modern mind to pigeonhole anything new into a previous concept or philosophy. It could just as easily pigeonholed into Christianity, since the bible said "All who believed held all things in common, sold what they had, and gave to the many, and so each man received what he needth." (something like that, anyway)

But it's not that either.

The Zeitgeist Movement is not about bringing into existance an 'ism'. It's about the use of technology in a comprehensive way on a global scale. It's about using the scientific method for making decisions. It's about the ability of computer to take in large blocks of data and produce workable answers.

It's about giving people their lives back, giving them a much higher level of initiative, a far better ability to bring their dreams into existence, give them far more time to do what they want to do, and the tools of education and technology to create what they want to create.

It's not about controlling people's lives, implanting anything on or in them, having computers control them, setting up new hierarchies or elites to replace those who rule them now, or turning people into drones.

Children have dreams about what they want to do in life. By the time they are teenagers, they learn the ugly truth... instead of 'you can do anything you want in life' they learn 'you can do anything you can afford to do in life' and to afford to do anything, you have to spend your time doing what you are told to do, in order to get the money.

Every idea they want to do, they hear... "where's the money going to come from?" And they figure out they are to be wasted, used, and manipulated, nothing more.

And for every idea they have to change things to a better way, they hear... 'Never happen ...because those with money, power, etc, will stop you.'

Communism is an ideology. To live in a Communism, you have to agree to the ideology. The Zeitgeist Movement is not an ideology, you don't have to believe in the same things to be part of it.

Buckminster Fuller came up with a way to measure labor. He said a single 'energy slave' (ES) is what an uneducated slave can do in one day bare handed. Each American has the equivalent of 2k ES at his disposal because of the leverage of technology. But the technology is not comprehensive, so it messes up the environment. The same number of ES, if used more efficiently, could provide the same work, but without the environmental destruction. The richest kings of the past only had a few hundred ES, and the serfs had, at best, 1 or 2 ES. Most 3rd world individuals, right now, have .80 ES, so they are screwed. The ZM wants to give everyone 5, 10, 20k ES, which will end human labor as we know it. Which would give people more freedom and wealth than anytime in history. No utopia involved. No ideology involved. No intimidation involved. Just a longer lever that benefits everyone.



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 08:07 PM
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Originally posted by Worldmind

Originally posted by Kraigam
I read a lot of these messages on the Zeitgeist/Venus Project thing.
Interesting. I've been following it, the Venus Project.
I like the idea. I see the communist connection, and the anarchist connection.
Though, they are both, scary and poisoned words.

They had no police force, and no crime, unless you count the criminals, fascist republicans who came from Madrid in 1939.
They had worker managed factories. No concept of money, everything was done by barter. On the youtube videos, a Catalan did point out that it was the absence of money, that attributed to the absence of crime.

Jacque Fresco in his faq claims it is not communism. Either he misunderstands the word and/or fears it. It is right to be feared. Stalin and Lenin with the help of the US destroyed communism in Russia, turned it into "state capitalism" which is what people currently "understand" communism to be. I really want to make sure.


It is not communism. It is a tendency of modern mind to pigeonhole anything new into a previous concept or philosophy. It could just as easily pigeonholed into Christianity, since the bible said "All who believed held all things in common, sold what they had, and gave to the many, and so each man received what he needth." (something like that, anyway)

But it's not that either.

The Zeitgeist Movement is not about bringing into existance an 'ism'. It's about the use of technology in a comprehensive way on a global scale. It's about using the scientific method for making decisions. It's about the ability of computer to take in large blocks of data and produce workable answers.

It's about giving people their lives back, giving them a much higher level of initiative, a far better ability to bring their dreams into existence, give them far more time to do what they want to do, and the tools of education and technology to create what they want to create.

It's not about controlling people's lives, implanting anything on or in them, having computers control them, setting up new hierarchies or elites to replace those who rule them now, or turning people into drones.

Children have dreams about what they want to do in life. By the time they are teenagers, they learn the ugly truth... instead of 'you can do anything you want in life' they learn 'you can do anything you can afford to do in life' and to afford to do anything, you have to spend your time doing what you are told to do, in order to get the money.

Every idea they want to do, they hear... "where's the money going to come from?" And they figure out they are to be wasted, used, and manipulated, nothing more.

And for every idea they have to change things to a better way, they hear... 'Never happen ...because those with money, power, etc, will stop you.'

Communism is an ideology. To live in a Communism, you have to agree to the ideology. The Zeitgeist Movement is not an ideology, you don't have to believe in the same things to be part of it.

Buckminster Fuller came up with a way to measure labor. He said a single 'energy slave' (ES) is what an uneducated slave can do in one day bare handed. Each American has the equivalent of 2k ES at his disposal because of the leverage of technology. But the technology is not comprehensive, so it messes up the environment. The same number of ES, if used more efficiently, could provide the same work, but without the environmental destruction. The richest kings of the past only had a few hundred ES, and the serfs had, at best, 1 or 2 ES. Most 3rd world individuals, right now, have .80 ES, so they are screwed. The ZM wants to give everyone 5, 10, 20k ES, which will end human labor as we know it. Which would give people more freedom and wealth than anytime in history. No utopia involved. No ideology involved. No intimidation involved. Just a longer lever that benefits everyone.



No its not anything its a scam. Please use your intellect to understand that they have no working model. If they did they would have to obey the laws in the US, which they could not and if they did meet all the required health codes. They would not ever meet standards of living for Hatie. And since they also would be considered terroist consisting of breaking laws to meet there needs. Most would be sent back to the country they have alliances to. Its a scam for your hard earned money to build a place in the USA in Fla. It looks like a scam that was in the 1980's where this car manufacture in California and could not come up with a product and told everyone how wonder their car was. Tell them to produce this wonderful and crazy computer controled world where it will be illegal to have sex with the partner you would want instead of the DNA one you are given. Computers are one cold justice system with out human input and compassion, which it seems a computer can not be programed to do. I urge you to go to the Venus Project web site and read all you can about it. If that is the way YOU want to live, well what can I tell you, you have your own mind and I hope for you the best. Just do not tell me that I am living wrong or I should live this or that way because it does not meet the standard of living you want the rest of humanity to live. I like how they can pick apart a system and then get all cranky when you pick apart theirs. Believe me my only intension is to tell you about what they want to do, I can not make that judgement for you. Live free or die. Sounds better than live our way or we will re-educate you.



posted on Apr, 17 2009 @ 08:33 PM
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reply to post by zman

Zman, that is not true and you are just saying stuff out of some mean streak you want to put out to everyone. You don't get it, and you probably won't get it. Nobody is asking anyone for money. If people want to donate, are you saying they don't have the right to donate? Is that statement logical? No, I distorted what you said just like you distort what you have read on the website.

Nobody will be 're-educated', period. With one exception, ...violent criminals will be analyzed by experts and helped, which is better than tossing them in metal cages and tossing away the keys. and they will have to do something violent to be arrested for violence. nobody will be analyzed for having different opinions any more than you are being analyzed now for this distorted hate message you put out.

Folks, don't go to the Zeitgeist believing what Z-man has said. Go with an open mind, and look at it without the fear Z-man drips in every word. Nothing he has said is true, period. The Zeitgeist Movement is not even that formulated... it's new and evolving. A new idea. Z-man wants America to go back to 1914 when there were Robber Barons and most people lived in shacks... and worked for pennies a day with no rights at all while many of their children starved. He would have America become a 3rd world country for whatever irrational reason.

I'm not going to convince him that what I say is true, since he considers me a lier, but I don't want him to poison the minds of everyone who reads this into seeing nastiness where there isn't any. The idea is new, and no intimidation is one of it's goals.



posted on Apr, 18 2009 @ 07:09 PM
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Originally posted by Worldmind
reply to post by zman

Zman, that is not true and you are just saying stuff out of some mean streak you want to put out to everyone. You don't get it, and you probably won't get it. Nobody is asking anyone for money. If people want to donate, are you saying they don't have the right to donate? Is that statement logical? No, I distorted what you said just like you distort what you have read on the website.

Nobody will be 're-educated', period. With one exception, ...violent criminals will be analyzed by experts and helped, which is better than tossing them in metal cages and tossing away the keys. and they will have to do something violent to be arrested for violence. nobody will be analyzed for having different opinions any more than you are being analyzed now for this distorted hate message you put out.

Folks, don't go to the Zeitgeist believing what Z-man has said. Go with an open mind, and look at it without the fear Z-man drips in every word. Nothing he has said is true, period. The Zeitgeist Movement is not even that formulated... it's new and evolving. A new idea. Z-man wants America to go back to 1914 when there were Robber Barons and most people lived in shacks... and worked for pennies a day with no rights at all while many of their children starved. He would have America become a 3rd world country for whatever irrational reason.

I'm not going to convince him that what I say is true, since he considers me a lier, but I don't want him to poison the minds of everyone who reads this into seeing nastiness where there isn't any. The idea is new, and no intimidation is one of it's goals.


Wow, chill out world mind, because 75 percent to not agree with you. I post what I see, and what I post is true. Show me where I am not true instead of just saying it. I posted what was on that web site per word of what it said. Prove me wrong.
I am here to have people understand that it is a scam, you still have not proven it is not, have not showed us the bylaws it functions on. I have shown you and everyone what its all about from the very web page that promtes it. I feel that I am a service to those who want to understand what it is all about, and so far you have failed to answer any of my questions regarding The Venus Project. So I took it upon myself to go to that web site and get the underlying theme and see what type of laws it wants to impose on the people who want to live in a computer controlled system.Why is that mean spirirted. I am just saying what I feel and showing the people where to look for information concerning this scam.


[edit on 4/18/2009 by zman]



posted on Apr, 19 2009 @ 11:25 PM
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Originally posted by zman
Wow, chill out world mind, because 75 percent do not agree with you. I post what I see, and what I post is true. Show me where I am not true instead of just saying it. I posted what was on that web site per word of what it said. Prove me wrong.


Zman, 75% do not know what we propose, and you don't know that 75% disagree with us, so it's irrelevant. Perhaps your antithetical attitude colored your ability to understand? Consider the possibility.


Originally posted by zman
I am here to have people understand that it is a scam, you still have not proven it is not, have not showed us the bylaws it functions on. I have shown you and everyone what its all about from the very web page that promotes it. I feel that I am a service to those who want to understand what it is all about, and so far you have failed to answer any of my questions regarding The Venus Project.


I don't have to 'prove' anything to anyone. You know there is no way to prove anything when something is just an idea. I have told you there are no 'bylaws' other than 'harm none'... and you have not understood even that. You take something you read, distort it, and spout it as if it is our purpose and design. You are just basically ignorant of what we are trying to do, and you are irrationally afraid of it. If you think my answers to your statements were not answers, then I have failed to communicate them to you. I will try harder. But for you to take what I have said, or anything from the Zeitgeist Movement website and put it out as a nastiness is just plain mean and ignorant. Let me put it plainly... We are not about taking anything from anyone... especially freedom. period!


Originally posted by zman
So I took it upon myself to go to that web site and get the underlying theme and see what type of laws it wants to impose on the people who want to live in a computer controlled system.Why is that mean spirited?


Perhaps its because you assume bad motivations? Perhaps because when I tell you otherwise, you continue to spout the jive crap about us you have made up? I know you are an intelligent person, and I figure you are just trying to childishly get a rise out of me, but to mess with people's heads and slander others is really not cool.

Do you really think people are going to let computers make the important decisions about their lives? Computers are tools, nothing more. They can take a lot of data and integrate it in a way we can use. And that is the extent of the Zeitgeist Movement's orientation around computer decision making. We figure it's better than having a bunch of greedy selfish people behind big desks make arbitrary decisions that affect our lives from their ignorance. This way we have more reliable options than just the options in our existing systems as WE, the People, make the decisions. You know, the people who's intelligence you are insulting? The people who read this?

The founders of this movement have their opinions, and they have been working on this for a long time, as I have separately from them. And in many ways we reached the same opinions. But they are only opinions. Without intimidation, they will remain opinions until the people who join and make the idea real decide what they want to do. The ZMovement is not a hierarchy. There are no people at the top who are the 'authorities' who make all the decisions. And if I have my way, there won't be. Humanity cannot survive that kind of foolishness.


Originally posted by zman
I am just saying what I feel and showing the people where to look for information concerning this scam.


This statement of yours is nonsense. You are not doing that. You are merely libeling us because of your ignorance and fear. You are an agent of the Status Quo. Why? Are you so cynical you won't give us a fair look and consider what we propose with an unbiased mind?



[edit on 19-4-2009 by Worldmind]



posted on Apr, 20 2009 @ 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by Worldmind

Originally posted by zman





Once again, that is the society you live in now. This society we live in is a hierarchy (pyramid) based upon money and intimidation, and what you describe is a hierarchy, but the Zeitgeist Movement's vision is to have a world without hierarchies. Hierarchies are anti-survival in the long run, both for the individual caught up in them, and the species as a whole. Hierarchies limit adaptation too much to survive by limiting decision making to just the few at the top and whatever they know about what they are facing. Humanity has to be smarter than that.

Right now, you have no choice in the matter, you have to do what is available for the money to get the necessities of life. The necessities of life will be free for the using in the new vision, because of technological design. Any labor required, which will be very little and probably very specialized, will be by those who are passionate about doing it.

Nobody is going to tell you how many children you can have. And nobody will have to, because the one characteristic of education and prosperity is that populations become steady or decline... they don't overpopulate.


Originally posted by zman



Labor will be done by machines except where people want to do it. That's why it's a freedom vision.

No coercion involved, nor needed. No mind control. No laws.



[edit on 12-4-2009 by Worldmind]


I am so sorry you are so wrong in your thinking about a scam that is never ever going to happen. You sir are insulting me and what I feel about this system. Why is that, you are so mean spirited and hatefull about any other system and idea. You say machines will do all the work, well who is going to make the machines?
1. Who is going to make the machines?.
2. What type of educational system is in place?.
3. What is the system based on?.,
4. What computer system will it use?.
5. Where are all the people who are living in such a system?.
6. Where is the product to try?.
7. Why should I follow such a system of hate?
8. Is it your way or the highway?.
9. Why should people be re-educated in thought processes controlled by a computer?.
10. Why should I have my children at birth implanted with a computer chip?.
11. What is there is decent in the system?.
12. What happens to those who refuse to follow such a system?
13. What are the punishments for not doing anything?.
There are so many questions and again no answers. No one knows what is going to happen, that is a given. There are always and I mean always a wrench thrown into the machine that is portrays that it will break. I can not believe you follow this so religously. I do feel sorry you do not rely on your inter human spirit. The spirit which is missing from computers and compassion I have to help you understand that this is just another scam.



posted on Apr, 21 2009 @ 12:56 AM
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Originally posted by zman
I am so sorry you are so wrong in your thinking about a scam that is never ever going to happen. You sir are insulting me and what I feel about this system. Why is that, you are so mean spirited and hatefull about any other system and idea. You say machines will do all the work, well who is going to make the machines?


Here are the answers as we have proposed:
1. Who is going to make the machines?.

People who want to and can. Who else? lol

2. What type of educational system is in place?.

right now, the talk is about 'curiosity based systems' where a child can follow their interest in some subject to the full extent of that subject using audio/visual means. Considering that I read recently that many children right now are learning more from the internet than from school, it might be the best way to do it.

3. What is the system based on?,

This question is a little vague but I'll try to answer it. The idea is to give everyone in the world anything they want in a 'resource based economy' where technological amplification produces the items they want and they are free to do what they wish.

4. What computer system will it use?.

I don't know. Subscribe to ScienceDaily.com and you can read of the latest computer technology as it is discovered from peer group review publications. The advancements are amazing and what will eventually used is not likely yet invented.

5. Where are all the people who are living in such a system?.

Everywhere. It's a global plan. People will live in cities, in the countryside, anywhere they like. The people who want to accomplish the ZM live all over the world. And nobody is actually, at this time, living in that system. it does not exist yet.

6. Where is the product to try?

They haven't been built yet, and most have not been designed yet. Like all products, it takes planning and effort to bring them into existence.

7. Why should I follow such a system of hate?

Loaded question. Have you stopped beating your wife yet? :LOL:

8. Is it your way or the highway?.

No. And it will never be that way.

9. Why should people be re-educated in thought processes controlled by a computer?.

Nobody will be 're-educated in thought processes controlled by a computer.'
Computers are useful for analyzing large amounts of data. They don't tell us how to think.

10. Why should I have my children at birth implanted with a computer chip?.

Your reference is to a Science Fiction manuscript written decades ago by Jacque Fresco with another writer. It was a futurist book and has nothing to do with the Zeitgeist Movement or the Venus Project other than some of the concepts in it are good ideas. That is not one of those good ideas. We are not proposing such implantation in any way whatsoever.

11. What is there is decent in the system?.

It will give people their time back, so they can spend more time with their families, have the resources and time to accomplish their dreams, end starvation and poverty, end war, give people better health care than they have now by far, allow people to live where they want, do what they want, and enjoy their lives as they wish. What's not decent in the idea we propose?

12. What happens to those who refuse to follow such a system?

Nobody is going to force the system on anyone else. They will do what they decide to do and if they need it, the system will be there for their use.



posted on Apr, 21 2009 @ 01:17 AM
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13. What are the punishments for not doing anything?.

There will be no punishments for not doing anything. And if someone does not do anything... sits around and picks their nose all day everyday, it will not take anything from anyone else. Without scarcity, and with the needs of life supplied, people can do that without any problem. However, most people will not do that long. People have things they like to do and with the time and resources to do them, they get up and enjoy doing them.

14. No one knows what is going to happen, that is a given.

But we all have a good idea of what will happen if we don't do something. The economy will make most of us homeless, the government will become fascist to 'control the homeless' when they protest the situation and the environment will slowly but surely die. And when it dies, we will die.

> There are always and I mean always a wrench thrown into the machine that is portrays that it will break. I can not believe you follow this so religously.

If a child is starving, would you not share your food with them? If someone is bruised and battered, would you not care for them? The great teacher Jesus said 'Whatsoever you do not do unto these, you do not do onto me'. I don't see that as a specifically religious statement but a practical advice for humans to follow. You don't have to be religious to see the wisdom of taking care of others. We are all in this together.

> I do feel sorry you do not rely on your inter human spirit.

The Zeitgeist Movement came from our 'inner human spirit'. We cannot sit by while thousand die of starvation and preventable diseases in the world, people who worked their entire lives get thrown from their homes, their countries are taken over by elites who brutalize them, and the bright promise of Humanity is eventually extinguished.

> The spirit which is missing from computers and compassion I have to help you understand that this is just another scam.

The spirit is not missing from our hearts and the whole idea is a manifestation of compassion. Do you accept children starving in a world that could feed them? Do you accept people being tossed out of their homes because of the manipulation by people who are too greedy to care about them? WE CARE!

BTW, we do not hate you. I'm sorry I treated you like a troll when I first read your posts. Your questions are good questions many people have, and I rejoice to get to answer them. Ask all you have and we will try to answer them as fully as possible. The Venus Project is only some sets of blueprints and a lot of ideas, but we do this with good hearts and clear consciences for the benefit of all people in the world and our common environment. When good people decide to create a freer and better world for everyone, it is worthwhile and moral. We know only a good means can create a good end, and we are willing to take new ideas when they are presented. Please present yours if you have any. Otherwise, please continue asking questions.

Peace,
Worldmind




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