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Debunking Chemtrails

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posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 12:09 AM
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omgudz Chemtrails r da REALZ

who hired you to think differently?

Who really truely disagrees with the possibility of chemtrails after legislation allows for dropping of chemicals for testing on the citizens active from the 70's era to present?

NOT ME!

CHEMTRAILS = DA REALZ

YOU = DA MAN

CHEMTRAILS + YOU =


There is enough proof in my eyes than will ever meet a textbook and until you experience the phenomenon for yourself you will never truly appreciate it.




posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 12:11 AM
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Originally posted by WhiteOneActual
Congratulations on the most coherent series of posts I have ever seen in a chemtrail thread.

Thanks.



Originally posted by eaganthorn What does this have to do with chem-trails? In a round-about way it shows that a poison, or any other chemical, can be dispensed through an airplane or jet by way of their ENGINE and that a sprayer isn’t really necessary for chemical distribution.

So unless or until some one can validate with absolute certainty that the fuel being used in these jets or planes, does not contain anything other than aviation fuel, I don’t think you can debunk the chem-trails by simply stating that mechanics haven’t seen a sprayer on their jets while performing routine maintenance.


Actually, I think I can pretty well disprove this.
Having been an aircraft fueler in my years at an international airport, I know how that fuel is handled pretty well. Individual private companies, who maintain the tank farms at each airport, store the fuel and check it constantly for contamination of any type. The reason for this is that fuel is easily contaminated through condensation, which allows for bacteria and fungal growth while tanked. This can cause damage to the aircraft engines, which are considerably expensive to repair or replace. Airlines are certainly not going to stand by and allow their engines to be used as some type of fogging device by the government
.

Anyhow, these private companies hire chemists who check that fuel on a daily basis, and who check the new fuel that arrives before it is tanked. They do this so that they do not contaminate their good fuel with bad fuel coming from the port. The fuel is filtered as it leaves the tank farm, then is filtered twice by the fuel truck before being put into the aircraft. The fuel that is in the aircraft is occasionally sumpped to keep any type of contaminates from growing in the aircrafts tanks.

The density of that fuel at the airports pressure has to be a known constant, so that the fuelers can justify their loads to both the flight crew and flight ops. Fuel in an aircraft is given in pounds or Kilos, and the trucks pump by gallons. So the fuel load has to be turned in with both justified to the other for billing purposes. In order to do this you have to know the exact density of that fuel for that days temperature and barometric pressure. If a fueler does not know this information then it is not only possible, but I have personally seen it happen, where they can overload the aircraft and spill fuel out the wing vents.

Finally the real nail in the coffin of this theory is that aircraft fuel is in fact kerosene, and basically the same thing as diesel fuel. Airports do not maintain a separate tank for diesel fuel to run the diesel ground equipment on, what they do is use ground service trucks to fuel those vehicles. Basically what this means is that once a day all the ground service vehicles are rounded up and taken to a gate where an aircraft fueler with a special attachment on his truck (like the one you use at a gas station) meets them. Once there, the fueler fills up all that equipment using the exact same gas that is used in the aircraft. Therefore if there was something in the gas, then the ramp would similarly be covered in chemtrail clouds from the ground service vehicles using it, and you would see ramp agents keeling over dead on the ramp while working on flights.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 12:16 AM
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reply to post by SuperSecretSquirrel
 


I can appreciate your insight, but I must tell you that it is very easy to use the heat generated in the turbine of your engine to further process a wide variety of chemicals in subsequent reactions. The base of aviation fuel is nothing more than another solvent capable of dissolving and suspending a plethora of substances and the heat is just another asset in processing, a catalyst and not a liability. I can speak with some level of experience on this subject and while my degree is not in chemistry, I have several years in the lab whilst I was deciding on my career path. Many people would be shocked to learn that basically all drugs and/or poisons can be dissolved in either a gallon of gas (or kerosene) or a liter of absolute and both of those can be used in aviation fuel.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 12:20 AM
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Originally posted by SuperSecretSquirrel
Some people will defy all the science and all the evidence and trust their gut that "something is wrong."


Maybe that type of thinking is what prompted people to discover that the earth wasn't flat!



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 12:28 AM
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reply to post by YouAreDreaming
 


I wouldn't trust a site with this on it...




posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 12:50 AM
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Originally posted by defcon5
reply to post by Snift
 


None of these things you mention or that you show patents for look anything like what supposed chemtrails look like:
Aerial Spryaing:

This is done at low level, and it disperses quickly. It does not form clouds, nor stay in the atmosphere.
Cloud Seeding

Is done above the clouds, it disperses rapidly, and it (obviously) removes clouds, not causes them.

I never said what the chemtrails looked like in my previous post, just showed the patents for the devices that spray chemicals into the air from an aircraft.
I give up, if the evidence of NASA patents of barium releasing rockets,patents for devices to spray unknown chemicals into the atmosphere as stated in the patent:


A laminar microjet atomizer and method of aerial spraying involve the use of a streamlined body having a slot in the trailing edge thereof to afford a quiescent zone within the wing and into which liquid for spraying is introduced.

plus all the videos and pictures (given, some are harmless contrails) I don't know what else to say. All the evidence is there, its like denying someone is at you're door when you hear them knocking and ringing the bell, even though you cant see them just yet.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 12:59 AM
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reply to post by eaganthorn
 


You are correct when you say that gasoline(petroleum) and absolut(alcohol) can be manipulated to do many things but JP8 (military) and AVGAS(civilian) need to be maintained to specifications. We had a bad sample at my base one time and it was a pain in the patootie because we had to fly to another place to refuel. And Defcon is correct when he states that the same fuel is used for almost all the equipment on a flightline. Our fuel trucks even ran on JP8.

There is not a special fuel that goes into select planes for the distribution of hazardous thingies on the public.

We can beat the is horse until it is pulp but we that have worked in the industry and made it our jobs to know about aviation and the subsequent fuels know that "chemtrails" are really contrails and are harmless to humans.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:01 AM
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reply to post by interestedalways
 


Was it Galileo that discovered this? If so, he had proof that he could show and allow others to review, even though he was persecuted. It wasn't just conjecture and a feeling.

Edit to add: Snift, can you please show evidence of planes with these patented devices?

[edit on 7-10-2008 by SuperSecretSquirrel]



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:10 AM
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reply to post by defcon5
 


Actually, with all due respect, you do not dispel anything here. If you are speaking with any authority on the matter or as a person with experience on this subject then you should understand what I am saying, that those that do test the fuel would be testing for specific things as there is no such thing as a one size fits all type of test for fuel.

As you have mentioned, someone could very well test the fuel for density, water contamination and bacteria, but that would be the only things to show up on the tests. Unless there would be sufficient cause to suspect or reason to test, these same technicians wouldn’t know to carry agent and reagent to test for any additional chemicals outside of the normal or expected.

As far as the same fuel being used in other equipment as you say, it doesn’t really mean much as the design of any substance to be disbursed via engine at high temp and high altitude wouldn’t necessarily be the same at a lower temperature. Remembering that the high heat would be used as a catalyst for any substance to be delivered in this manner.

This is of course all hypothetical as I for one do not believe for a moment that anyone in our government is capable of such a deceitful practice, nor could I ever believe that anyone even remotely associated with the FAA could be so oblivious to such acts and therefore they couldn’t possibly occur. The very idea that our government would lie to us or abuse our trust, is, well, not very nice, now is it?



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:17 AM
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defcon5 - Kevin Martin is a well RESPECTED man. The best meteorologist I ever have known of. PERIOD.

The guy is brilliant on all odds with OWSweather.com

Are you jealous because of what he does? Many seem to be. Get off his case because those "contrail forecasts" at NASA do not have the ENTIRE East Coast in circles. Chemtrail forecast DOES.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:18 AM
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Originally posted by interestedalways
Maybe that type of thinking is what prompted people to discover that the earth wasn't flat!


I'm really tired of this fall back position.

You do know that educated people have accepted that the Earth is round for roughly 2,500 years, right? No, I guess you don't know it. The Greeks figured it out and they didn't use their gut in the process. Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth in 240BC. He was off by a bit but he was able to do it at all because he knew the Earth was round. He didn't use his gut.

The only people who have believed the Earth to be flat (for a long, long time) are those uneducated ones who relied on their gut feelings and ignored what the science of the time was telling them. You see, gut feelings tell us that the world is flat. Look, you can see the edge right there! Don't tell me it's round. My eyes never lie. ("Don't tell me that's not a chemtrail, I know what I'm seeing!")

It's by abandoning gut feelings that knowledge is gained, not the other way around.

[edit on 7-10-2008 by Phage]



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:26 AM
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Originally posted by SuperSecretSquirrel
There is not a special fuel that goes into select planes for the distribution of hazardous thingies on the public.

This is a good point, and one I did not think to bring up in my post.
All the fuel comes from the same tanks, and our gas was all JP8 as well, though I believe that we had to keep one small tank of JP5 incase the local military base had to divert to us. That is why the gallons/lbs have to be justified to the flight ops, for billing reasons. They do not have a separate tank or separate set of lines for each airline, and since all the fuel comes from the same sources, the only way to track what each airlines uses, is by the hobbs meter on the trucks. These print up a fuel ticket in gallons pumped, which has to be turned in with the fuel load in pounds, so they know who got how much gas. In order to use the JP5 tank, the entire system had to be shut down and the line discharged to hook up to the other tank. This was a big deal as all fueling on the airport had to stop until the process was complete, and everyone knew about it. In all the years I worked out there, I only ever saw this happen once. The only difference between JP8 and JP5 was an additive to raise the flash-point of the fuel for naval/carrier operations.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:26 AM
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reply to post by SuperSecretSquirrel
 


Again, I do appreciate your insight as well as the respect you have shown in this thread and honestly, for the most part, I haven’t given much thought to the chemtrail idea until reading this post. This has been nothing more to me than an exercise in debate.

I merely wished to point out that if something like this was or is being done, the only ones to really know would be the ones pulling the strings. This conspiracy type does have a compartmental aspect to it that would make it feasible to achieve. Practicality is whole other game. But we can’t go too far off of a vigilant posture as there has been testing performed on the public without knowledge or consent in the past.

Enjoyed reading and participating in the discussion.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:43 AM
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reply to post by SUMDUMONKEY
 


" still we all breath the same air even the elite sooooooooooooo basically they would be in danger of killing themselves, i think that is one conspiracy that is a little too far, "

Aren't you any many others assuming something here, that the stuff has a single objective and effect! [ I know I'm guilty ] I've also seen the planes go by and the sky cloud up too, but that's about it.

What if it needs another part? Ever use epoxy? It contains a hardener and a base! Also, have you heard of designer drugs? How about designer diseases?

I don't know what the second part is or could be, but it is a possibility. Besides we really don't know the target! Alot has been said about what it is and alot have assumed it is us that is the target, but the truth is, we may just be the target of a spin campaign as opposed to anything else. But I really don't know for sure either way, and the only thing I still know, is what I've seen.

I just wanted to throw that out there.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:46 AM
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Originally posted by eaganthorn
reply to post by SuperSecretSquirrel
 


Again, I do appreciate your insight as well as the respect you have shown in this thread and honestly, for the most part, I haven’t given much thought to the chemtrail idea until reading this post. This has been nothing more to me than an exercise in debate.

I merely wished to point out that if something like this was or is being done, the only ones to really know would be the ones pulling the strings. This conspiracy type does have a compartmental aspect to it that would make it feasible to achieve. Practicality is whole other game. But we can’t go too far off of a vigilant posture as there has been testing performed on the public without knowledge or consent in the past.

Enjoyed reading and participating in the discussion.


If what you are saying is true, and TPTB really are putting chemicals in the fuel to be dispersed over the populace through the exhaust, then I will be in a world of hurt. I was a crew chief on helicopters and was privy to so much exhaust its not funny. Its just unavoidable in that line of work.

To the point that was made about different reactions occurring at different altitudes is false. The same reaction happens at sea level. The reason why those air liners fly at 35,000 feet is because it is so cold up there and turbine engines perform more efficiently at those cold altitudes.

I hope that those who read this that believe in chemtrails will be able to look at the evidence presented objectively. I cannot "prove" that there are no additive in gas and TPTB aren't spraying us all but the evidence is favor of no conspiracy here and the only "evidence" for chemtrails is conjecture and gut-feelings.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:49 AM
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Originally posted by eaganthorn
Actually, with all due respect, you do not dispel anything here. If you are speaking with any authority on the matter or as a person with experience on this subject then you should understand what I am saying, that those that do test the fuel would be testing for specific things as there is no such thing as a one size fits all type of test for fuel.

While I never did the testing myself, I know that they had to test what additives were in the fuel to make sure that it was the proper JP type. There are 4 types of fuel that are used in aircraft, JP4, JP5, JP8, and Avgas. Avgas is a gasoline-based fuel that comes in 55 gallon drums, but the other three are all Kerosene’s with differing cuts and additives. You bet they have to test the additives to ensure that they don’t accidentally add a load of JP5 into a tank of JP8.


Originally posted by eaganthorn
As you have mentioned, someone could very well test the fuel for density, water contamination and bacteria, but that would be the only things to show up on the tests. Unless there would be sufficient cause to suspect or reason to test, these same technicians wouldn’t know to carry agent and reagent to test for any additional chemicals outside of the normal or expected.

Correct me if I am wrong, but wouldn’t a chromatograph show exactly what it contains. We are talking about an industry that moves millions of dollars in fuel every month, they will spare no expense at ensuring that fuel is up to standards.


Originally posted by eaganthorn
As far as the same fuel being used in other equipment as you say, it doesn’t really mean much as the design of any substance to be disbursed via engine at high temp and high altitude wouldn’t necessarily be the same at a lower temperature. Remembering that the high heat would be used as a catalyst for any substance to be delivered in this manner.

So I guess that the supposed poison that everyone is so worried about has no effect on those of us who were walking around directly in the path of aircraft engine exhaust, service equipment exhaust, and directly breathing the fumes of that fuel? Funny, I wonder why I don’t have Morgellions, or one of the other supposed chemtrail related diseases. You don’t even want to know the number of times I spilled that fuel all over myself, right down into my boots, then had to finish an eight hour shift like that.


Originally posted by eaganthorn
This is of course all hypothetical as I for one do not believe for a moment that anyone in our government is capable of such a deceitful practice, nor could I ever believe that anyone even remotely associated with the FAA could be so oblivious to such acts and therefore they couldn’t possibly occur.

Not only would the FAA have to know about it, but also the ramp crews, the fuelers, the mechanics, the tank farm personnel, truckers, airline management, flight ops personnel, flight crews, and even the cabin service personnel. They would all know about it, or have to be in on it as well, and that is hundreds of thousands of people who take no oath of secrecy.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 01:51 AM
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reply to post by Phage
 


" The only people who have believed the Earth to be flat (for a long, long time) are those uneducated ones who relied on their gut feelings and ignored what the science of the time was telling them."

Oh nonsense! Not their "GUT" telling them, how about their MASTERS or their OWNERS telling them lies to keep control over them!? eh?..
..


The first time anyone seen the moon they could figure the planet they were looking at the moon from was most likely the same shape, so no great shakes there!

Insisting that it was ignorant people who dreamed it up is pure nonsense, because it smacks of a manipulation by an authority figure which falls in line with the many lies man has been told even since the beginning!

So in conclusion, people may have passed on lies but only to survive the wrath which would have come from their masters, not from something that they dreamed up on their own!



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 02:27 AM
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Originally posted by toasted
reply to post by Phage
 

Oh nonsense! Not their "GUT" telling them, how about their MASTERS or their OWNERS telling them lies to keep control over them!? eh?..
..


The first time anyone seen the moon they could figure the planet they were looking at the moon from was most likely the same shape, so no great shakes there!

Insisting that it was ignorant people who dreamed it up is pure nonsense, because it smacks of a manipulation by an authority figure which falls in line with the many lies man has been told even since the beginning!

So in conclusion, people may have passed on lies but only to survive the wrath which would have come from their masters, not from something that they dreamed up on their own!


"Don't try to run away! You'll fall off the edge of the world!"
"Master, you're right! I went up on that mountain and looked out to sea and I seen the edge!"

There are lots of reasons for keeping people ignorant of some things but, the shape of the Earth? How would telling someone the world is flat help keep control over them? They had better methods in the middle ages than than. Actually come to think of it, it would have made it kind of difficult to find crews for those ships that sailed those oceans blue if they thought they were going to go over the edge a few miles out of port. No, most people have known the shape of the world for a long, long time.

It wasn't repressed information. There was no struggle to "reveal" the truth as the post I was replying to implied. There were no brave hearted souls who boldly put forth the "new" idea that the world was round.


aaaand...now I'm completed off topic..sorry

[edit on 7-10-2008 by Phage]

[edit on 7-10-2008 by Phage]



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 10:53 AM
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If chemtrails and contrails look and act totally different can you PLEASE provide pictures comparing them side by side?

IMO its like many conspiracies, not possible because of the infrastructure and amount of people that would have to exist to maintain and develop these technologies. All that and there is no REAL evidence?



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 11:05 AM
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reply to post by drock905
 


Thanks drock, no real evidence, only "feelings."

I have called out people to provide evidence of equipment on aircraft or of samples taken from the chemtrails and nobody has done it yet.

The believers of this theory know nothing about aviation.




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