The Saints- Who and what are they

Hello All

My understanding is the the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) has the doctine of the patron saints.

My understanding of this is that these saints are there to be contacted and approached by the living for help. Christians as a whole can often believe that the saints are not only prayed to but worshiped. Here is what a RCC has to say on the matter.

We pray with saints, not to them.
Have you ever asked anyone to pray for you when you were having a hard time? Why did you choose to ask that person?

You may have chosen someone you could trust, or someone who understood your problem, or someone who was close to God. Those are all reasons we ask saints to pray for us in times of trouble.

link

and this si from another Catholic website

The communion of saints is the spiritual solidarity which binds together the faithful on earth, the souls in purgatory, and the saints in heaven in the organic unity of the same mystical body under Christ its head, and in a constant interchange of supernatural offices. The participants in that solidarity are called saints by reason of their destination and of their partaking of the fruits of the Redemption

RCC Source

I cannot see, from these sources, that the saints are worshiped. However there is a problem.

the RCC definition of a saint, differs from the criteria of God as outlined in the Bible. in the Bible a saint is a believer past present and future.

However RCC doctrine says that is it is the organization of the RCC that chooses who becomes a saint.

Secondly the saints the RCC chooses are dead and according to the Bible

A) The dead know nothing
B) talking with the dead is necromancy and it is forbidden
C) Purgotory is not Biblical and was introduced by the RCC
4) I believe that the RCC system actively encourages its followers to attach and involve themselves to satanic familiar spirits, whichis condemned in the Bible


Purgatory does not exist, and is not Biblical

"Whereas the Catholic Church, instructed by the Holy Ghost, has from the Sacred Scriptures and the ancient tradition of the Fathers taught in Councils and very recently in this Ecumenical synod (Sess. VI, cap. XXX; Sess. XXII cap.ii, iii) that there is a purgatory, and that the souls therein are helped by the suffrages of the faithful, but principally by the acceptable Sacrifice of the Altar; the Holy Synod enjoins on the Bishops that they diligently endeavor to have the sound doctrine of the Fathers in Councils regarding purgatory everywhere taught and preached, held and believed by the faithful"

okay the RCC states that the holy spirit teaches that there is a purgatory and that the living and the dead saints can pray on their behalf. Personally i cannot see how the Holy Ghost, sent of God would teach a contradiction of truths

The dead know nothing and the believers are the saints so my question would have to be who are the RCC expecting the laity to contact?

A quick search on the history of the roman empire, paganism and the RCC will show that Pagan rome and other pagan cultures had deities that were later substituted as saints.

Probably the clearest example
of the survival of an early goddess
into Christian times is Brigid,
the great triple goddess of the
Celtic Irish. Bridget took religious vows,
...and was canonized after her death
by her adoptive church, which allowed
the saint a curious list of attributes,
coincidentally identical to those of
the earlier goddess.

From Goddess & Heroines by Patricia Monaghan
ISBN-10: 1567184650


I believe that the historic saints of the RCC are pagan deities and therefore demonic entities and enemies of God. I do not say this to hurt anyone but to hopefully jolt people to a least look into it. Even if this were not true, Gods word is the standard. He tells us that communication with the dead is not to happen. I ask our RCC brothers and Sisters to put aside any hurt and look at the bible and beg the Holy Spirit to show you Gods will on this. Read the Bible and test doctrine against scripture.

Please believe me that i am concerned for you, this is not a bash at the RCC.

Take Care

david











[edit on 6-10-2008 by drevill]

Thanks for making this thread. I have many Catholic questions but am so afraid they'll think I'm ridiculing them so I keep it to myself. I understand they do not actually worship the saints but, like you, I'm curious about enlisting them in help in prayer due to two reasons:

1). This sounds to me like speaking to the dead, as you mention, which is strictly forbidden according to the Bible.

2). We are told there is only one intercessor between man and God and that is Jesus Christ. Not the saints and not Mary. It seems a lot different to have other [living] people pray with you and for you (which is scriptural) but I really don't understand using the deceased as intercessors. Where does this doctrine come from?

Catholics, please don't think I'm bashing you. It's something I've never understood.

The so called prohibition came from the story of Saul and Samuel's ghost. I doubt any catholic would try to conjure up spirits. So I don't know if it applies here
When I was a christian, I have always had problem with catholics confessing to priests. What's wrong with confessing to God directly? Also, why do catholics call them Fathers? There's only one Father

Just my 2 cents.

Catholics do not worship the Bible. It is an important book, but it is NOT written by the hand of God. What Catholics have is a Biblical religion as relevant as any protestant sect, guided by the Bible AND tradition. A tradition that Catholics believe has been handed down in a direct line from St. Peter through to the current Pope Benedict. As such it is a living tradition (not that others are dead) and Catholics believe revelations didn't end with the Apocalypse (the last book of the Bible) but that Saints and others can and will receive new messages from Heaven introducing new ideas and traditions and so forth.

I think if we start pointing out what is and isn't in the Bible as far as what religions do or do not do it gets on a very slippery slope (Leviticus anyone?) - the fact is that there are many different interpretations and different sects throw out or stand by parts according to their own reasoning.

The question of whether Catholics are "real" Christians is bandied about. A silly question. Obviously, protestants think Catholics are wrong and Catholics think protestants are wrong (and muslims think they are all wrong). They are different religions. If you are judging Catholics by protestant Biblical interpretation, they are going to fall short. Apples and oranges.

I personally think the great mistake of the Catholic church was Vatican II and a sort of attitude (in America at least) which tries to convince protestants that they are on the same team or whatever. "Hey everybody, we're Christians too!" I think Catholics should worry more about straightening the obvious problems within the Church and worry less about what people of ANY other religion thinks they are or are not. Catholics shouldn't worry a for a second about non-Catholics understanding or condemning Catholic practices with Saints or Mary or any other thing. If you don't "get" it, don't join the Church. Simple. In church, Catholics play by Catholic rules, protestants play by protestant rules. We'll see you on the basketball court.

There is one intercessor between God and man: the man Christ Jesus. We have no need of other intercessors. Besides, due to the purgatory doctrine, wouldn't the "saints" be a little indisposed wallowing around in purgatory? If we have to ransom them out with money then they're not really in a position to help us even if they weren't dead. Being dead and all is a real hindrance to being able to help out anybody else.

You're right, David, on all points. Clearly you know your scriptures and are to be commended for not following the traditions of men in contradiction to God's word.

Having been raised in Catholicism, I know a lot of Catholics. I've had these same arguments for years with them. I think I'll bow out of this one. I referenced an ATS thread on the link you provided in which several issues of Catholicism were addressed. You may find it helpful.

Also, for the record, I differentiate between Catholics and CatholicISM.

reply to post by drevill

Purgatory does not exist, and is not Biblical

I did some research on purgatory. Apparently there are some verses that support that. I think it all comes down to interpretation.

1. Purgatory is supported by scripture and like the last guy said it's about personal interpretation which is why God set up a hierarchy to interpret scripture and loose and bind things on Earth. God gave them that power.

2 Peter 3:16
2Peter 1:20

both talk about personal interpetation, and this is why we have 3,000 more denminations which are all divided against each other.



Now about speaking with the dead. The bible also says it's a holy thought to speak with the dead. What you are talking about is from a cut and paste website like


Deuteronomy 18:11

they are speaking of Pythonic spirits and or fortune tellers. They are talking about stanic spirits, not dead saints as those protestant websites tell you.



every passage like Isaiah 8:22 and every one of them says (divining spirits)

they are talking about satanic fortune tellers not saints. the bible also says it's a good thought to pray or talk to the dead, Ill find the pasage later.


now as for drevill you talking about canonization.

The bible does not say (everybody) per se is a saint. It says we are called to become saints.



Corinthians 1:2

" called to be saints "


and this goes back to the fact that scripture clearly says that after learning about Christ you can lose your salvation.


Mathhew 7:21


" Not all that say lord lord to me shall enter the kingdom but he who does the will of my father, he shall enter "

John 15:6


talks about if you do not abide in Christ you will be cast forth.


So we become saints at the end (if) we run the race good enough. this is biblical.

Another fact about penance is that it goes perfectly with purgatory.


Luke 13:3

" Unless you do penacne you cannot fallow me "


Purgatory cancels out or makes us pay our penacne on earth.



drevil I would highly suggest you don't get your info from cut and paste protestant websites.

hello there

Could you give me a Biblical reference where it states it is okay to commune with the dead, and references to show where God differentiates between being able to commune with the saints but not others that are dead

You did not do that in your previous post.

with respect i would like to draw your attention to 2 Peter 1 and explain this passage, if you wouldn't mind. This text is used so often , and yet it is never studied in its own right. It should really be read from verse 19 and on to verse 21

2 Peter 1:19-21 KJV

19 We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20 Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21 For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

the word Private in verse 20 means origin

Knowing this first, that no Prophecy is of a private Origin. The interpretation is from God, given by grace and should be shared for the benefit of the church and if you cross reference this with Romans

Romans 12:6 KJV

Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;

2 Peter 1:20 is telling us that we must share and not keep it to ourselves as it is not ours to own. In no way does this mean that individuals cannot interpret, as this is ordained by God and would be contrary to his word It is as a gift as he sees fit.

the other Peter verse you gave me is easier to understand, this is talking about non believers as knowledge is given by God as a Gift and it is that knowledge/wisdom that allows us to understand the word of God and when we hear it we receive faith, another gift.

Also, please, with respect, I copied only a part from a book showing the origins of one of the RCC saints, which is in fact an adopted Celtic pagan goddess. Did you read this at all or did you dismiss out of hand?

you are incorrect about the typs of spirits.

it lays out many types but the Bibles also says

a consulter with familiar spirits or someone that knows a dead spirit and interacts with them.

strongs says

ghost, spirit of a dead one and meas anyone from family to old leaders and chiefs etc.

Psalms 88:10-12 KJV

Wilt thou shew wonders to the dead? shall the dead arise and praise thee? Selah.

Shall thy lovingkindness be declared in the grave? or thy faithfulness in destruction?

Shall thy wonders be known in the dark? and thy righteousness in the land of forgetfulness?

Psalms 6:5 KJV

For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

scripture clearly shows the dead are dead and do not think or emote therefore your saints are not who you think they are my friend.

david

reply to post by Deaf Alien


Hello

could you quote the verses please

that way we can all look at them.

cheers

david

reply to post by drevill


1 Peter 4:6
For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.

Matthew 5:26
Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.

Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

2 Maccabees 12:46-48
for if he were not expecting the fallen to rise again, it would have been useless and foolish to pray for them in death.
But if he did this with a view to the splendid reward that awaits those who had gone to rest in godliness, it was a holy and pious thought.
Thus he made atonement for the dead that they might be freed from this sin.

1 Peter 4:6

sorry this is not what this verse is saying.

basically it is saying ALL will hear/have heard the gospel message. even those that are now dead both literally and spiritually

from strongs (although this is not the only definition

spiritually dead

destitute of a life that recognises and is devoted to God, because given up to trespasses and sins

inactive as respects doing right

1 Peter 3:19 also mentions preaching to the spirits but this was via the spirit as it was through Noah that the preaching took place.

Isiah shows us what the prison is, it is. It is not knowing God and living in Sin.

Isaiah 42:6-7 KJV

I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the prison, and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Matthew 5:26 is talking of legal matters, nothing else. please read the whole chapter.

Matthew 12:32???? means not now not ever, you will not be forgiven at all this is a huge jump to purgatory from there.

2 maccabees is apocryphal and cannot be counted. it was written by Jason of Cyrene and is not an inspired works and is not even in the Hebrew Canon.

from Britannica

Jason of Cyrene (c. 100 bce) wrote a history, of which 2 Maccabees is a summary, glorifying the Temple and violently attacking the Jewish Hellenizers

The Jerome Biblical Commentary, p. 8

It seems most likely that the abridger worked directly from the works of Jason of Cyrene, shortening Jason's lengthy text into this small book. Either he or a later hand added the two letters in 2 Macc. 1:1-2:18. It is difficult to judge the full extent of the work of Jason. In view of its five-volume length, it is difficult to believe that it would only have been a more detailed history of these fifteen years. It may be that the abridger selected a period of great importance to him and prepared an abridgment and adaptation of Jason's account of that period. As to the letters, there are a number of indications that they were added by a third hand, since they are not fully integrated into the text as it now stands. They may have been added in an attempt to propagate the observance of the festival of Hanukkah, which celebrated the purification of the Temple by Judah in 164 B.C. A few other additions were certainly made by either the abridger or some other editor

Not really inspired by our Lord


David

reply to post by AshleyD


hello AshleyD

I think it is our duty to engage in truth, but it is Hard, i find it hard myself whenever i am shown or told i am wrong. This is just pride and foolish on my part though.

We cannot be responsible for the reactions of others as this is not in our control. Even if we were to provoke, the reaction is on the part of another.

That said i have often gone away in a hump, asked the Lord about something and come to realise i was wrong all along. How little we know.

When i became a Christian, i often wondered how the RCC and others could not see contradiction in their doctrine compared to the Bible, even the catholic people themselves. Ultimately God is the one that opens their eyes. I understand that God has his purpose, even if it is for us to look more closely at ourselves and his word.

I do not doubt there are many that really love Christ and are generally Biblical in all walks of life, I just pray God shows each an everyone of them that there are practices and doctrine etc that are not from him.


david

No drevill I'm sorry but those passages were clearly talking about diving fortune tellers.

Now as for Psalms 88:10

Is talking about nothing more then the prayers of dead bodies and that he was dead in sin and was down to the pit (hell) where they cannot pray.

you need to really look at the context of that passage.


Psalms 6:5

Again it's not saying that at all.

it says.


" who shall give thee thanks in hell "

and the KJV which i wouldn't trust because of the original tainted version

" in the grave who shall confess thee "


they are talking about lost souls or in physical terms. The fact is that life after death is biblical ofcourse, everybody knows that, but he's talking about hell. The dead saints always give him praise. he menat in his physical sense.

again it has nothing to do with praying with the saints.



Now as for machabees. The author was approved by the church long ago when they put the bible together. This is why God created the orginization to loose and bind things on Earth. As for ypou saying it's not inspired by God, you don't know that.


2Peter 1:19

brother I know the context of this. Everybody thinks they are inspired, yet this has caused 3,000 different churches to be created because of priovate interpretation. So whos correct? Who settles the truth?

if they are all inspired yet divided how can that be the truth?

So basically God would have to build a hierarchy to interpret scripture. it's common sense. When i see something I don't know how to interpret, I go to the church God founded.


as for St brigid. Just because she had the same name or whatever it is doesn't mean anything. The difference is with st brigid is that she denounced paganism and lived for Christ alone, while that godess never knew Christ.

you can't get your damn info from liars like that. Look at the girl in my sig. Her story is not like a pagan godess. She was a simple virgin who had the stigmata and suffered for souls.


anyways about penance and purgatory. The passage was used by deaf Alien, he took it right out of my mouth.

God says.

Follow me and do penance.

" if you don't do penance you cannot be my disciples "


so why would we have to pay if God payed once for sins? because God said so. God payed for sins so we could recieve the initial graces, but afterwards if we keep fallinf we have to carry our cross for our afterward mistakes.

this is biblical.

and the fact is 1,000 of saints spent their whole lives sffering for others, while it wasn't them themselves, but it was God working through them, so it was actually Christ suffering in them.


I'll have more later.

hello there

well ive laid out the truth for you and to say the KJV is tainted is odd when when the RCC bible is so obviously (and easily verified, bu investigation) has been doctored.

However if you wish to fall back on the individuals shouldn't interpret then we shouldn't even be discussing it.

however just for comparison

Psalm 6:5 from The Tanakh

For in death there is no remembrance of Thee; in the nether-world who will give Thee thanks?


very easy to fall back on

the same word is used sheh-ole

sheol, underworld, grave, hell, pit

the meaning is the same- dead and gone

Isaiah 38:17-18 KJV

Behold, for peace I had great bitterness: but thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption: for thou hast cast all my sins behind thy back.

For the grave cannot praise thee, death can not celebrate thee: they that go down into the pit cannot hope for thy truth.

and just for comparison again here is is from the Tanakh

17 Behold, for my peace I had great bitterness; but Thou hast in love to my soul delivered it from the pit of corruption; for Thou hast cast all my sins behind Thy back.

18 For the nether-world cannot praise Thee, death cannot celebrate Thee; they that go down into the pit cannot hope for Thy truth.


i think this we know its is NOT just a Physical death

re maccabees

this is from Jerome

that it is of no authority in establishing doctrine

as mentioned before it is not authoritative in the hebrew scriptures


st brigid its the same myth transposed into Christian form, with the same atributes. just because you are now told she denounced paganism you belive it. she wouldnt be a RCC saint would she otherwise? of course they are going to say that

check out the istory, and not just on RCC sites, secular also.


you said

So basically God would have to build a hierarchy to interpret scripture. it's common sense. When i see something I don't know how to interpret, I go to the church God founded.

sorry, I really do like and respect you but i have to say bluntly that this is the type of doctrine that Jesus condemned. Its a little ambigious also. the RCC says the laity cannot interpret but you are saying that you have some discernment. Only when you do not; you say the Hierarchy can???

Id like to point out that the RCC kept scripture in word and oral form from the laity, which directly contravenes the word of God.

according to you, the hierarchy of the church alone must have devine inspiration and be able to interpret the scriptures, correct? is this the same hierarchy that deemed anyone not a RCC should be put to death?

and the same inspiration that God gave to Pope Lucius III that all helpers of the heretics would suffer the same fate?

was it this hierarchy that

was inspired to charge people for prayers for the dead.

conducted church service in Latin so the average jo never got to understand Gods will and the truth that salvation is in Christ and not the organised church?

led Pope John Paul to tell people not to go to God for forgiveness but to go to him instead?

to incarcerate the Jews in ghettos in the papal states unable to trade to outside of those ghettos?

to print

Adolph Hitler, son of the Catholic Church, died while defending Christianity

to implement pagan practices?

An Essay on the The Development of the Christian Doctrine John Henry "Cardinal Newman" p.359

The use of temples, and these dedicated to particular saints, and ornamented on occasions with branches of trees; incense, lamps, and candles; votive offerings on recovery from illness; holy water; asylums; holydays and seasons, use of calendars, processions, blessings on the fields; sacerdotal vestments, the tonsure, the ring in marriage, turning to the East, images at a later date, perhaps the ecclesiastical chant, and the Kyrie Eleison are all of pagan origin, and sanctified by their adoption into the Church

Eusabius

In order to attach to Christianity great attraction in the eyes of the nobility, the priests adopted the outer garments and adornments which were used in pagan cults

change times and dates?

The Catholic church,” declared Cardinal Gibbons, by virtue of her divine mission changed the day from Saturday to Sunday.

Catholic Mirror Sept. 23 1983

sorry for all the quotes but they show how often the RCC church goes against God.


can i have a scripture reference for this please?

with respect

David



p.s edit to remove words written in the heat of the moment, sorry!







[edit on 8-10-2008 by drevill]

But seriously never heard of them, they are anonymous shape shifting reptiles.
Like everyone o dont know.