Forget Sunburn - enter the new carrier killer, page 1

www.defensetech.org...

China is developing an anti-ship ballistic missile (ASBM) based on a variant of the CSS-5 medium-range ballistic missile (MRBM) as a component of its anti-access strategy. The missile has a range in excess of 1,500 km and, when incorporated into a sophisticated command and control system, is a key component of China’s anti-access strategy to provide the PLA the capability to attack ships at sea, including aircraft carriers, from great distances.

and

Now, here's what it means: carriers must stay at least 1000 miles off this enemy's coast. Think how that affects strike planning, surveillance, rescue...any number of factors that go into naval aviation planning. And how do you defend against such a strike? I'm not sure about all the details, but it seems to me there's a pretty short flight time in which to generate a solution for an anti-ballistic missile interceptor. Maybe ABL could handle this one, but how many can it shoot down at any one time? A salvo of even five or 10 of these could be devistating.

bang on the money for an IRBM - and with a `pershing 2` type CEP of better than 30m if they ever use these things its gonna hurt;

now its rumoured that this is very similar to the PAK SHAHEEN missiles (1 and 2) - which are also flown by NK and Iran

reply to post by gottago

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How are aircraft carriers obsolete?

Aircraft carriers provide the US with some of the greatest force multiplication and force projection capabilities.

If they were obsolete, why are we building updated ones?

Shattered OUT...

Originally posted by ShatteredSkies
reply to post by gottago

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How are aircraft carriers obsolete?

Aircraft carriers provide the US with some of the greatest force multiplication and force projection capabilities.

If they were obsolete, why are we building updated ones?

Shattered OUT...

Gottago in:

Well, if you have the USN in congressional testimony admitting at least five years ago that they could not protect carrier task forces from Sunburns, and now you have China creating their own version with a 1500 km range, that pretty much makes carriers obsolete in a war. They have to stay out of range of these missiles and are sitting ducks in potential flashpoints like the Persian Gulf and Taiwan.

Granted they are still viable for projecting force in crisis situations, but in a real war, yes, they are obsolete.

Aegis, Sams 3000 rounds a minute close in guns, all obsolete, the real carrier killers are without a Doubt:

VA-111 Shkval
The VA-111 Shkval (from Russian: шквал - squall ) torpedo and its descendants are supercavitating torpedoes developed by the Russian Navy. They are capable of speeds in excess of 200 knots (370 km/h).

Wiki on it

There is currently NO DEFENSIVE SYSTEM against this, none.

So it truly is the only real Carrier Killer and very frightening, as I have said before 4 of these or probably 8-10 would if hitting their targets pretty simualtaniously totally destroy American Projectionable Military Power.

I don't like weapons, or war games, or get much into this, I only like the technology and knowing the world I live in, But these are still in my limited knowledge the only real Carrier Killers as explained, there is nothing to stop them when they are shot.

Kind Regards,

Elf

reply to post by ShatteredSkies

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Really, this is well-known. It's not my opinion: as I said, the Navy admitted years ago before congress that carrier task forces were highly vulnerable to Russian Sunburns--under questioning they admitted that they had nothing that could be guaranteed to stop these missiles.

I'd suggest you google "sunburn" to learn about just what these missiles are capable of; they are quite impressive, and have doubtless since been improved upon, and have been seeded to client states.

Now you have China making known it is developing its own version.

reply to post by COOL HAND

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The only thing that worries me is the scenario you stated, salvo launch, in the dozens, to first get through the AEGIS ABM shield and then perhaps to get a hit on the carrier. One possible way in which they can go about this could be submunitions. We currently have the capability to launch submunitions that can pick out individuals vehicles on the move, track, lock and detonate all autonomously. They wont sink a carrier that way but they can stop mission ops. The resulting fallout would essentially limit carrier operation until an assessment of the situation can be made. It is possible, but as I said before, they have to walk first before attempting to run.

Fortunately for us we a system in place that will only get better at defeating this kind of threat. The Navy might seriously want to think about installing terminal laser defenses for such a scenario. They are precise enough to hit small mortar shells so they should be able to take care of small submunitions. At such a close range future AEGIS in combination with IR sensors should have no problem illuminating any warheads.

The problems facing the Chinese in this case are great. First there is an issue of intelligence, finding the carrier in wartime is easier said then done. Continuously tracking the carrier with the live stream required is even more difficult. China simply does not yet posses the capability to do this. A CVN can haul if need be, considering a bare minimum of 15 minutes notice a carrier can be anywhere within a 315 mile square area. A unitary warhead would have too large a CEP, even if terminally guided, against a maneuvering target to be an effective and reliable system. Submunitions can help in this case but again just like the warhead they must first overcome the technical challenges let alone the defenses and countermeasures that will be present. It's safe to say that for the near term such a system will not be fielded by the Chinese.



[edit on 6-10-2008 by WestPoint23]

Originally posted by gottago
reply to post by ShatteredSkies

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Really, this is well-known. It's not my opinion: as I said, the Navy admitted years ago before congress that carrier task forces were highly vulnerable to Russian Sunburns--under questioning they admitted that they had nothing that could be guaranteed to stop these missiles.

I'd suggest you google "sunburn" to learn about just what these missiles are capable of; they are quite impressive, and have doubtless since been improved upon, and have been seeded to client states.

Now you have China making known it is developing its own version.

Do you think the us navy was standing still while other countries developed weopons? The sunburn is already obsolete they now have the searam it replaced the phalanx system and is even more effective.

"In 10 scenarios, real Anti-Ship Missiles and supersonic Vandal target missiles (Mach 2.5) were intercepted and destroyed under realistic conditions. RAM Block 1 achieved first-shot kills on every target in its presented scenarios, including sea-skimming, diving and highly maneuvering profiles in both single and stream attacks."

heres an article Russian "Sunburn" anti-ship missle threat neutralized...

good photo of launch with this link
SeaRAM missle defense system

The us navy identified a threat then took action we are not stupid.

reply to post by COOL HAND

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it does have terminal guidance - which is the whole `thing` about it

and ciws is obselete and searam isn`t as good as they want you to believe

reply to post by WestPoint23

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in controlled `tests` CIWS hit everything thrown at it - in reality , in 1991 it missed in the only wartime use of an ASCM against a US ship (HMS Gloucester incident) , also there was a very good breakdown on here about the real world tracking limitations of using a stinger seaker ontop of a sidewinder missile.

i do agree it is a much better option than a gun - but its not the be all and end of of ship defence - if a carrier has to shoot itself then the layered defence has gone wrong.

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