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Is censorship ever "right"

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posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 04:42 PM
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I think censorship is wrong no matter the reasoning behind it.

Every idea no matter how stupid has the right to be heard. Even NAMBLA, the KKK, Jerry Fawell, etc, ALL have a right to be heard, if for no other reason than to hear JUST how stupid they are.

I think one of the problems with the country is ALL the options are not being presented to the people, or maybe the avarage person is just to lazy or busy to research the options.


I know in some countries that some things are labeled hate speach and not allowed and I think that will be the final straw here.

When you stop fools from speaking then who determains who is a fool?


I was just wondering if any others thought that sometimes some kinds of speach should not be allowed?




posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 04:44 PM
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Censorship? What would you consider the viewing of child pornography?



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 04:47 PM
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Originally posted by Jonna
Censorship? What would you consider the viewing of child pornography?




That is commiting a crime if a child was used to create it.

If no child was involved then I would say it was not a crime, as much as I hate child-molesters.



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 05:19 PM
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A true democracy will not have any censorship... I think having ratings for movies and TV is ok, coz some things are just not suitable for viewing by young audiences... but i think political ceonsorship is wrong... if someone has a political view i feel they should have as much right to make it heard as the republicans or democrats or anyone... not censoring anything political is the only way you can ensure that the people are definately getting the full picture and all the ideas out there, and thus make a descision of their own on what is right and wrong...



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 05:51 PM
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Censorship is an evil, but one by necessity. I am a member of the ACLU... mainly because of the book bannings (like the Wrinkle in Time, because it mentioned a witch it it). People should be allowed to speak and read what they want... but as long as they use common sense and respect.

If they say/print something that is meant to entertain or create thought, so be it... but if it is used to deliberate-ly insult or cause harm, then it is wrong.

Common sense.

About child pornography... define that. I've seen TV commercials with naked babies running around, an episode of Seseme Street with naked children bathing. Is that porn? I love art... how many paintings are there of naked children? Or cherub statues? Granted, the art and TV spots are done in a way as to not offend anybody...

But then, look at history and songs. What is a child? It was common practice to marry a 12-14 year old girl not even a hundred years ago in America. Sex with 16 year olds (the 1950's song 'Sweet 16', the Beatles 'In love with Another'... umm... the singer to 'Great Balls of Fire') was the norm.

The law about statatory rape/age of consent (seven year difference)...

As our country becomes older, so does the age limits of children (anything from sex to driving to drinking)...

Now hear me out here: I honestly believe that when a 'girl' gets her period, she is a woman. Why not? She's able to have children, her body is now sacred (alot of tribal societies still hold that belief). We've all heard in school that when we start growing pubic hair and developing, we are changing into adults. Granted, not mentally, but physically.

I feel... and I know I'll catch flak for saying this... but if the 'porn' in question is artful and well done, then it is fine (how photographs differ from the illustration in Health books is beyond me). But if the photo involves lewd acts, it is wrong.

How can I take this stance? Morals, respect, and common sense.

You do not need society to tell you what is right or wrong. People should already have that in their heads and hearts. That is what people like to call a conscious.

To use a personal example: Like I said earlier, I love art, and I can find personal beauty in many things. If the picture is done right, I could look upon an image of a developing woman and find it artful and beautiful (others may disagree, but it is an opinion thing, and everyone is entitled to their opinion)...

HOWEVER...

If the same said girl was shown spread eagled or depicting... something else... that would be wrong. She is the same girl, and she may, in fact, still be beautiful, but the imagry is not.

Common sense.

Look at it this way: For censorship, go by what I do... I have two children, and a 14 year old sister in law... I will expose them only to things I would be exposed to. My oldest child (8 yrs) knows what words he can and cannot say, and he automatically diverts his eyes when the 'naughty bits' comes on in movies... he does that on his own. He knows what he can and cannot do.

Just like with the example of child porn... how would you feel if your daughter or son were exposed? My sister-in-law is a physically beautiful woman (but personality... good God Almighty, I could strangle her)... have you ever seen those older paintings of fair-skinned angels with the real long hair? I am not saying this in a perverse manner... my wife, her sister, has even said the same thing. So I could see my sis-in-law photographed in that type of art medium... but I could not, would not even want to think about it, see her exposed in any other way.

It may sound confusing, but I hope anyone reading understands.

Christ, I think I went waaaaay off subject here!

What is right and wrong in censorship? The answer would be common sense, and a respect for your children.

[Edited on 24-3-2004 by soothsayer]



[Edited on 24-3-2004 by soothsayer]

[Edited on 24-3-2004 by soothsayer]

[Edited on 24-3-2004 by soothsayer]



There really weren't any edits... thought an 'edit' on a censor thread would be funny

[Edited on 24-3-2004 by soothsayer]



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 05:55 PM
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WE already have censorship look at what happened to Stern, not to mention Janet Jackson, etc.


The main problem to me with censorship is you are REALLY trying to outlaw is a IDEA or a THOUGHT which I believe is not only impossible but truely evil in its own way.

Even the most horrible crime in the world does not become a crime until it is COMMITED.

What censorship says is not only will we control what you do we will also control what you think.

Orwell had a word for it they called it "Thought-crime"

It is mind-control in its most basic form, and it is slowly seeping into use here



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 05:58 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
Orwell had a word for it they called it "Thought-crime"


Seen the movie Minority Report?

What is a thought crime? In the movie, they arrested you because you wished/thought/wanted to kill somebody.

Turns out, you may want to do those things, but never act upon them...



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 06:04 PM
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damn, man. this is exactly why I wish I had more than three votes a month (please consider my request!).

soothsay said it all, and said it well. ESPECIALLY the part about common sense. basically, if you find yourself continously observing something you originally deemed offensive, then you are not so offended by it, are you? in short, I think what he was saying is censorship = the ability to tell you what to say and what to think.

that was a pretty cheap shot, there, jonna, but your point is still taken. yes, of course most of us can agree that child porn is downright offensive, but we all can practice common sense, just as soothsayer has said. we make the decision to look at it or to avoid it. I hope all of you choose to avoid looking at such hideously perverse graphics.

censorship is the tool of the devil, which is not something I say often, because it consists of keeping people in the dark. I said it once today and I'll say it again "AND I HATE THAT!!!!!" I detest anyone or anything who specifically manipulates society to maintain ignorance.

censorhip should not exist in a society that claims to practice free speech. quite simply, censorship is a tool of communism. just ask China how much they looooooove censoring stuff. do we live in China? no, right?

but censoring graphic picutres because they are politically inappropriate is just wrong. Why can we see horrible movies about dead people and gore everywhere, but not a documentary about real dead people killed by real methods of war? what I mean is that the censorship here in the US has major double standards. where are the images and video of civilian casualties during the latest Iraq invasion? you'd be hard pressed to go find them, but at least they are out there. when was the last time you saw undedited footage of the IDF performing operations in Palestine on a US network? how often do you see news reports discussing Palestinian frustration over the Israeli occupation on a US network?

but if you dare say something on the air like "the likud party is nothing more than a band of radicals and the knesset should reevaluate its political stance", chances are you will get flamed and/or fired as zionists (not jews. jewish people are great. zionists have sealed their fate) will claim you are antisemitic.

[Edited on 3/24/2004 by AlnilamOmega]



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 06:09 PM
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Originally posted by soothsayer

Originally posted by Amuk
Orwell had a word for it they called it "Thought-crime"


Seen the movie Minority Report?

What is a thought crime? In the movie, they arrested you because you wished/thought/wanted to kill somebody.

Turns out, you may want to do those things, but never act upon them...



That is my point exactly. They are trying to turn an thought into a crime. Now all Ideas should not be acted on but should the THOUGHT of something a crime? How about the expression of that thought? Even if NO-ONE else was involved?

Kiddie Porn is a good example. I think anyone would agree that a film of an adult having sex with a child is a crime. But to me the crime is an adult having sex with a child not the fact that it was filmed.

Where it gets weird is how about someone drawing a picture of an adult having sex with a child? No Person was involved. Should that be outlawed? Should merely the thought be outlawed? You cannot say that it should be outlawed because it shows a crime, how many people have you seen killed or raped on TV this week?


I will let this pot bubble a bit more,,,,,,LOL



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 06:14 PM
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Thought I'd get negative responses... you know... people thinking I was defending porn or something.

There is a difference between seeing a nude of a developing woman, and a naked picture of a girl. It is a matter of common sense (and what your children would think, or of what you think of your children).

But, yeah, as far as printable materials... censorship is wrong. I am sure that the one author of Satanic Versus didn't go out and desire to be put on a hit list... just like the writers of the books Wizard of Oz or Alice in Wonderland didn't expect to be thought of as evil.

How about the vile Disney movie The Black Caldron? Critics and extremist groups were trying to remove that movie too... I finally saw it a couple years ago, and couldn't believe their crap! My oldest and I watch Japanese animation movies... wanna talk about a difference in moral views!

And yet my son is fine!

Censorship is wrong. Let me be the parent to my child.



*Real edit here- don't feel bad... I don't think I've had a vote yet!
*

[Edited on 24-3-2004 by soothsayer]



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 06:28 PM
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The problem lies in the judgement.
What one person considers art may be offensive to another. Who draws the line?
Common sense is not something that 99.9999% of politicians have. Should we hold a general vote for every image that goes on the internet? How about put remote control blinders on our kids to decide what they can't see at any given time? It can't work.
I don't believe in censorship. It would be great if everyone were level headed and there were no sexually deviant freaks out there. Unfortunately, that is not the case.
Kids have access to more information than any time in the history of the world. We would need a complete cultural revolution to stem the flow of lewd material to those too immature to understand it all.

P.S. The whole Howard Stern thing is rediculous! I can't stand him but he has every right to say what he does and has for nearly twenty years. I know how to change a channel on the radio
.



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 08:44 PM
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Censorship is a touchy issue with a lot of people now-a-days.

It's hard to judge what is acceptable because it is all subjective.

Child pornography is not censorship because legally that child can not consent to the act no matter what, therefore it is illegal.

On the otherhand some in this country choose not to partake in things that others like but still continue to not allow them to do it.

I think careful restrictions are ok on questionable material so that parents can be sure that their kids can not get things they don't want them to have.

When it comes to political censorship is wrong in the extreme and should be abstained from. The freedom of speach is important and should not be taken lightly.



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 09:04 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk
I think one of the problems with the country is ALL the options are not being presented to the people, or maybe the avarage person is just to lazy or busy to research the options.
I know in some countries that some things are labeled hate speach and not allowed and I think that will be the final straw here.




Look at all the ninnies here already in the US trying to censor educational books because there are certain words that either may affect a childs "self esteem" or is "racist" in some form or another, there are always going to be idiots out there who will ruin it for other people. Notice the "dummies" will always ALWAYS insult a person first because they think their thought is "stupid" or "arrogant" but think about how they have been conditioned by mainstream media, their teachers, their parents and everybody else in society that doesn't think of both sides. You know why they don't like to look at both sides? Because they are too concerned with being right. They will fight tooth and nail even if they are wrong, just to be right. That is ignorant, it's stupidity in it's purest form, but they never even open up their minds to the other side, note, there maybe more then two sides of a story depending on the issue. What's the saying??? A closed mind is a decomposed mind?? those are the people who I believe are running this country and I dont mean just presidents but dummies. We talk about political correctness all the time but do we ever stop to think who is behind it all?????? I know. The dummies are. The dummies are the one's who want to shut everyone up who doesn't agree with them, censor, and kick em out of their mainstream thinking which has become mainstream. Think about it. The one's who shut people up and right away knock somebody for an opinion. Lot's of people have been conditioned this way because they are following what they've been taught.... By the dummies. Dummies want to censor. I'm not talking Fcc bs, i'm talking regular people out there who got beef with people because their thoughts are different from theirs because these people can't look at more then one side. It's sad that our country has come to this, and it's sad that the people we walk amongst and talk amongst have been dumped, fooled, cheated, and been stupid enought to buy into the pc thing. PC censors different ideas and thoughts. You get shut down insulted, bullied into shutting up, or fined.
When you stop fools from speaking then who determains who is a fool?
Somebody is a fool in someone else's opinion

I was just wondering if any others thought that sometimes some kinds of speach should not be allowed?


The kinds of speech that shouldn't be allowed are the stupid fcuks who walk around thinking they know everyhting when they know nothing, these people should get their aszes shined for trying shut people up when these people haven't even open their minds.
I'm not pc here, so I really do think that these people should get a shoe shined on their asz..........Right on.


Thoughts and different idea's are what really irk the dummies. They are self righteous idiots, who want it their way or the highway, and they stoop to the lowest levels just shut people up.
It's so true true true.

[Edited on 24-3-2004 by TrueLies]



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 09:08 PM
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Originally posted by Amuk

What censorship says is not only will we control what you do we will also control what you think.

Orwell had a word for it they called it "Thought-crime"

It is mind-control in its most basic form, and it is slowly seeping into use here










Yup and the dummies are eating it up and supporting it by projecting the same #e onto others. I'd like to practice archery on these fcuk heads.



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 09:59 PM
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First off let me say I am glad of the responses I have got so far on this Although I have yet to here from the"Other" side, maybe we as a group are just a little more open minded than most.

Second let me say I am not talking what parents censor for there children. That to me will pretty much be up to the parents, but even here I can see limits on what even a parent can keep from there kids. Yes some times in SOME curcumstances Parents should NOT censor their kids. SOME times.


What I am speaking about is adults trying to tell other adults what they can say, draw, write, film, etc. This kind of censorship to me is ALWAYS wrong.

I liked the kiddie porn example because these people discust me and I would cheerfully shoot a child-molester.

But I would not censor one from writing a story or drawing a picture. As a matter of fact it could be argued that allowed this form of release might even save some kids from being molested. And if not at least the #ing sick SOBs will be out in the open where you can keep an eye on them.......LOL.

If you start denying free speach on the grounds that its offensive where do you stop? A while back I saw a black man on TV with a T-Shirt that said "Kill Whitey" while this to me is offensive I would fight for his right to wear it. I wonder if they would allowed a white guy to wear a shirt that said "Lynch Niggers". I doubt it but I would fight for his right to wear it to. Both are just showing the world their stupidity, and to me its a good thing to know the man I am talking to is an Idiot, before I waste to much of my time.


There have been several posts about Jews that I dont like but I would NEVER say that they should not be allowed to speak. Again I like my idiots in the open......LOL.


and Lastly I would like to here from some of those from countrys with hate speach laws. Have they stiffled speach?

Or can you talk about it?



posted on Mar, 24 2004 @ 10:17 PM
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I think speach, even hate speach, should be allowed.

I also think that speach that perpetuates violence is tolerable so long as should that speach come to violence, the speaker can be held accountable.

I have not problem with freedom of speach as long as that freedom comes with responcibility in that you must take responcibility for what you say.



posted on Mar, 25 2004 @ 02:20 AM
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Ok, ok, I hate censorship in all forms, but I'll play the devil's advocate just for the sake of mixing it up a little.

Regarding political censorship, this should be a no-brainer. If you were in power, and wanted to stay in that power, would you not also censor some things that might horrify the people that would re-elect you? If war is inevitable (and remember i'm playing the devil's advocate here), and you know that the images coming back from any war will be grisly and show the sons and daughters of parents, would you not do all that you could to stop those pictures from hitting the mainstream media? There are so little pictures from Iraq because Bush knows it will horrify and haunt everyone who was for the war. Talking about war is one thing, but people are hardly ever shown face to face the effects of it. Violence in movies I'm sorry to say, is nothing like real violence. There is something much more savage in real violence. There is no poetic camera shots and slow motion to ease the tention.

Censoring the public has been a time honored tradition of letting the people know what they want to know.I'm sure that many people are glad they are not bombasted with pictures from Iraq. It makes them sleep better not knowing how human bodies are being ripped apart and souls departing from this world every minute. So in this case, I can see the argument for censorship. Do i agree with it? No i don't. I believe people have the responsibility to know the effects of their actions and what they choose to support.

In the case of literary and cultural censorship, the only argument I can come up with would be the society's standard of what is acceptable. Albeit this makes for a bit more lazy parenting, but if a society has set up standards for what is "wrong" then I would expect that society to try hard to not let that type of material to spread amongst the people. This goes against one of our most basic freedoms, but everyone wants to think that their agenda and their moral code is the right one.

Ok, well thats that.



posted on Mar, 25 2004 @ 04:58 AM
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Usually when it comes to topics such as this, I go with my gut instinct, and as I have grown older, and have outgrown instilled notions and prejudices, I have learned that I can trust my gut more and more. Having said that, there is no case that I can make in favor of censorship. This of course has to be tempered with what has already been said here by several, mainly common sense should rule. I am not in favor of lowering any age limit for children at all. My gut tells me that it would be wrong to lower age limits for any reason. Eighteen is an acceptable norm.

I also believe that warnings/ratings messages should be part of any questionable material, written, video, or otherwise. I want to retain the right to control what my children are exposed to.

Other than that, censorship is nothing more than a tatic to control people, and is not a good thing, IMO.

john



posted on Mar, 25 2004 @ 08:15 AM
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We definitely see people try and censor other's on this board. Hell it's happened to me.

Let me just make one point clear. Never EVER shut anybody down if they are making a different point. It ruins the board for everybody because they think they have to walk on egg shells in fear that the dummies will shut em down , insult, and name call. Also known as censoring.

The very first thing these people do is throw insults and put people down.
Again that is a closed mind.

A closed mind is a decomposing mind. author unknown. kudos forever thought that up. It's so true.


We haven't heard from the other side because those people don't want to participate in this thread because they know who they are.

Well, i'm calling you out. Why don't ya'll come post in here about why you do what you do, why you believe in it, and why you think it's ok. Just curious.

This is a debate not a flame war, no matter how much you would like to flame just chill out and come debate.
Anyway, this is a good thread to start because hopefully it will revive some people's spirits on here and they will feel they won't have to walk on egg shells here.

Censorship is just another way of stuffing the pc thing down our throats.


[Edited on 25-3-2004 by TrueLies]



posted on Mar, 25 2004 @ 08:15 AM
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Sorry guys, just finished catching up on this thread. In Canada we do have this censorship. Personally I think it blows. It is in place because the government lazy parent,or too busy parents, aren't taking the time to instill into there children a sense of right and wrong. I don't think that any thing should be censored. But I also think that parents should take the time to experience important things with their childrn. My children watch "All in the Family", I recommend that they do so that they can see how ridicullous racism, intollerance,sexism is. They see that people that practice these things are to be laughed at, not listened to.

If one of my kids asks me something that I can't or won't answer in a masnner that they will understand, I tell them just that. I don't tell them that it is bad, or dirty, whatever, I tell them that I won't be able to until they are older so that they will understand it. Guess what? They accept that. They trust that I will give them the info that they want when they are capable of it.

My son asked me what porn was about 2 months ago. He's 13. So I showed him what it was online.(wait til I'm finished before you bash). I also showed him a beautiful nude woman, to show him the difference between the two. Some may say that this was inappropriate, I think that not only does he know exactly what porn is, it also strengthen the fact that he can talk to me in these matters. He's coming up to that age, wish I could have talked to my father about these things.

Bottom line is the censorship should be left up to the parents, a reflection of their views. Unfortunately there are many parents that don't, or can't, spend the time they need with their kids, so government and special interest groups step in. What do I think of this?...




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