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Persecution or Imagination

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posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 02:10 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD
reply to post by mmariebored
 


Do you not realize it works both ways and that some accept Christianity as adults? That they also feel as if they 'woke up?'


Yes. I know people convert to Christianity later on in life.
Like Jeffrey Dahmer. Everybody has their reasons. I'm not judgin.
Though I'm sure it's easier to convert to Christianity in your adult years when you've never done extensive research on it's history and the history of many other religions like it before you decide. I'm willing to step out on a limb and BET that the majority of people who are new converts have never done all the research there is to do on Christianity before deciding to convert. Either that or they've messed up so bad that the only thing that will ease their guilt-infested mind is the comforting "forgiveness" of Jesus and the hope of no repercussions for their actions.




posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 02:34 PM
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Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage

Religious people are often persecutors, not the persecuted. They are influenced to be hypocritical, and despite all the blatant hypocrisy and contradictions they don’t seem to recognize it or care.


congratulations, you've just described the HUMAN condition. there's not one group or individual on this planet, that doesn't have problems with blatant hypocracy, contradiction and other such issues. it's not isolated to anyone. i can show cases that every group and philosophical standpoint on this forum or the planet for that matter, have the same EXACT problems.

the real issue is one of extremes.
what we do with the data once we have it. do we use it to punish others? do we use it to enforce our beliefs on others. can we draw a dividing line between common sense and religious tenet (these often cross over one another which can be a source of consternation for those who see it simply as a matter of common sense and those who see it as a tenet of religion that just also happens to be sensible -- et.al, thou shall not kill, pretty sensible, yes? treat others as you would like to be treated, pretty sensible, yes? just cause we don't always adhere to what we all agree is sensible, doesn't mean it isn't still a good idea to be sensible).



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 04:59 PM
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reply to post by undo
 



congratulations,


Thank you.


it's not isolated to anyone.


Where did I say it was?


i can show cases that every group and philosophical standpoint on this forum or the planet for that matter, have the same EXACT problems.


That’s a bold statement that I’d like to see you back up. Go ahead, present to me how every single group has been as persecuting and hypocritical as religious groups. I look forward to it. Also that is kind of off topic, we are not addressing every group, right now we are tackling issues about religion, and my statement in regards to this particular religion was correct.


what we do with the data once we have it.


I try to present data and allow others to draw whatever conclusion they like from it. That is why when people replied to my post that you just did I gave them the information to support my claims. How that makes them feel, how they decide to take in that information or how they decide to address it is up to them; as is the conclusions they draw from it.

Mod Edit: Quote Tags.

Mod Note: ATS Handbook – Please Review This Link.



[edit on 7/10/2008 by Mirthful Me]



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 05:01 PM
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I;'d like to pop in here and offer some of the examples o imagined persecution I can remember.

The best example I can give was this very conservative guy that used to preach on one of the local collage campuses. He was quite unkind and would often personalyl insult the people on the street during his sermons--for example, calling a girl in short shorts a slut or a man and a woman holding hands adulterors. Eventually he was forbidden to speak publically on campus, but threatned to sue the university for what he deemed to be encroaching on his right to religious freedom and free speech.

Another one happened to a church I used to attend. A group held a car wash at a grocery store. They had permission to use the lot from the store manager, but not the owner of the plaza, and so they were asked to leave the premises. They failed to follow the rules that would have been applied to anyone, but saw it as religious persecution.

The same thing happened to a guy who went to a night club to hand out tracts. This business did not allow the distribution of religious or political documents. I don't know if the guy knew the rules and ignored them or simply failed to ask the staff before sending out his flyers, but he was unjustifiable upset when he was asked to stop.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 05:08 PM
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reply to post by rapinbatsisaltherage
 


common sense, my friend. just look around.
check a history book. it's a human foible. has nothing to do with race, religion, gender, marital status, class or social standing.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 05:26 PM
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reply to post by undo
 



common sense, my friend. just look around.
check a history book. it's a human foible. has nothing to do with race, religion, gender, marital status, class or social standing.


We are not discussing common sense are we? We are discussing religious persecution. If you’d like to discuss common sense or any of the other off topic points in your post I suggest a different thread. I've never made a point in any of my post that religion only persecutes, I simply came to this thread to discuss religion and persecution, and I’ve gone off topic enough.

[edit on 7-10-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]

[edit on 7-10-2008 by rapinbatsisaltherage]



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 08:42 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 



While those are interesting stories and probably informed your opinion on Christians in general it is purely anecdotal and isn't very relevant to the discussion.

Anyone can pick a few loons from their memory and try to ascribe their behavior to a larger group.

Here is some anecdotal evidence for you that is also completely irrelevant: I used to play cards with some members of the board of directors for NY mensa. They were some of the most closed minded people that I have ever known. Some of the most closed minded of that clique also happened to be atheists. I don't assume that A) atheists are close minded or B) people with mensa level IQ's are atheists.


Eric


[edit on 7-10-2008 by EricD]



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 08:51 PM
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Originally posted by mmariebored

Yes. I know people convert to Christianity later on in life.
Like Jeffrey Dahmer. Everybody has their reasons. I'm not judgin.
Though I'm sure it's easier to convert to Christianity in your adult years when you've never done extensive research on it's history and the history of many other religions like it before you decide. I'm willing to step out on a limb and BET that the majority of people who are new converts have never done all the research there is to do on Christianity before deciding to convert. Either that or they've messed up so bad that the only thing that will ease their guilt-infested mind is the comforting "forgiveness" of Jesus and the hope of no repercussions for their actions.


The Jeffrey Dahmer comment was silly (there's that word again) and a very obvious attempt at being prejudicial. Shall I start rattling off names of people that were Christians in early life, became something else and were horrible people?

I'll join you on that limb and bet that the majority of people who convert to a religion know that religion better than most current adherents as well as the population at large (including people that are generally accepted to be well educated).

You are ascribing a motive out of ignorance (no insult intended, I'm using that term in the clinical sense). Your motivation to do so interests me. This is probably better off for another thread, but did some Christians do something to offend you personally?

Eric



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 08:56 PM
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Originally posted by mmariebored

No, because not everyone stays the same over time. People change. They grow and learn. They "put away childish things"...it isn't right to torment a person forever for what they thought as a child. Some people are so busy with working, raising kids etc., they don't bother to question what they believe and why they believe it, and sometimes, just sometimes, God forces them to stop and listen to him instead of whatever dogma they found themselves in. This is called "waking up".

[edit on 7-10-2008 by mmariebored]


Maybe I'm misreading you here. Can you explain this a bit? Are you saying that those who look for (and often find) truth in a given religion are 'asleep' and those that move out of organized religion are 'awake'?

That seems to be awful close minded if I'm reading you right.

Eric



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by mmariebored
Go into any church and ask anyone if they feel "persecuted" just for being a Christian. I've done it. I've asked people. I've made poles on Christian forums and I know people, personally.


Were you engaging in hyperbole here, or did you actually go into Churches and start asking people if they felt that they were persecuted for being Christians?

That seems very odd to me. It seems to indicate that you have a committed agenda going into your fact finding mission as well as it's just strange.

Eric



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 09:06 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
I;'d like to pop in here and offer some of the examples o imagined persecution I can remember.

The best example I can give was this very conservative guy that used to preach on one of the local collage campuses. He was quite unkind and would often personalyl insult the people on the street during his sermons--for example, calling a girl in short shorts a slut or a man and a woman holding hands adulterors. Eventually he was forbidden to speak publically on campus, but threatned to sue the university for what he deemed to be encroaching on his right to religious freedom and free speech.

Another one happened to a church I used to attend. A group held a car wash at a grocery store. They had permission to use the lot from the store manager, but not the owner of the plaza, and so they were asked to leave the premises. They failed to follow the rules that would have been applied to anyone, but saw it as religious persecution.

The same thing happened to a guy who went to a night club to hand out tracts. This business did not allow the distribution of religious or political documents. I don't know if the guy knew the rules and ignored them or simply failed to ask the staff before sending out his flyers, but he was unjustifiable upset when he was asked to stop.

This is the reasoning behind the OP. I have had similar experiences to base my opinion on exaggerated "persecution" goes. One sticks out in my mind because it's the one that began my observation of the use of the term(I was very young).

It was 1987, and a certain Christian church, quite large, several hundreds of churches of this branch nationwide, came together in our area with some historical coding "facts" that "proved" that the rapture was going to happen in 1988 and the tribulation was going to begin. Massive tent revival meetings, concerts, picnics at the park in attempts to reach the masses with their warnings to hurry up and be saved. Some people actually went the extent of flying a plane all over the area and dropping papers that preached of this impending doom. The papers landed all over people yards, in the streets, parking lots etc. Many people were not happy about the litter, let alone the fearmongering message. The ones who distributed this mess were fined and they announced it in the church as "Christian persecution".



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 09:08 PM
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reply to post by mmariebored
 




I've been avoiding this thread because it really makes my blood boil!!! So much so that I just can't keep silent anymore.

The amount of PURE IGNORANCE in this thread is disturbing. And the term "sick bastard" is not even strong enough to describe the emotional and intellectual ineptitude, heartlessness, and psychotic tendencies of anyone who is cruel enough to make light of persecution of any religious persons.

You have also made some statements equating Christianity with stupidity. With that in mind, DON'T YOU DARE sit there and make ANY kind of statement regarding how "judgemental" or "intolerant" Christians are!!! Your statements in this thread are testimony to the FACT that you and others like you are much more judgemental and intolerant than ANY Christians I have ever met!!!

Also, in an earlier post you said....

Originally posted by mmariebored
Go into any church and ask anyone if they feel "persecuted" just for being a Christian. I've done it. I've asked people. I've made poles on Christian forums and I know people, personally. Their answers had nothing to do with the actual REAL suffering overseas by other Christians.

I never denied the MUCH suffering all over the world, by many groups of people for many reasons, including religious beliefs, and I never agreed violence was justified. Violence, in fact, sickens me.

And, frankly, I'm a little tired of having to explain myself to people who purposely ignore the truth of what I'm saying and are trying to paint it into something evil, adding meaning to what I said...just because I disagree with their beliefs.


It is beyond pathetic that you would devote so much time to trying to find accusations to throw at a religion that you obviously hate. Do you honestly have nothing better to do with your time?
And if you are sick of having to explain yourself to those who have RIGHTLY accused you of making light of persecution, maybe you should have thought of that before making such IGNORANT statements on a public forum.




posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 10:10 PM
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reply to post by mmariebored
 


I'd reckon that thre are very few cases of actual persecution here int America.

Most of the time it's ignorance of or deliberate ignoring of existing laws and regulations, as you mentioned with the plane.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 10:20 PM
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Originally posted by EricD
The Jeffrey Dahmer comment was silly (there's that word again) and a very obvious attempt at being prejudicial. Shall I start rattling off names of people that were Christians in early life, became something else and were horrible people?

Good evening, Eric. Shall we begin the night repeating more of the same?
I see we shall. But I shall not want the contest of rattlings off of names you speak of, no, I shall not want that. It shall getteth messy and the list shalleth be long, no, we shall not want that.

I'll join you on that limb and bet that the majority of people who convert to a religion know that religion better than most current adherents as well as the population at large (including people that are generally accepted to be well educated).

You're entitled to your own opinion. I disagree with you. I've stated in another thread that many people who preach nonsense for a long time and "spread the word" to everyone they know and people they don't know, have trouble backtracking and saying to all those people, "I messed up, I wish I'd never joined that religion and preached about the nonsensical dogma of my youth." Thus, anchoring themselves in sludge they don't even fully believe in and taking more people down with them as they continue to preach their ignorant dogma.

You are ascribing a motive out of ignorance (no insult intended, I'm using that term in the clinical sense). Your motivation to do so interests me. This is probably better off for another thread, but did some Christians do something to offend you personally?

Psychoanalyzing "easy pickings"? By the way, only cowardice abusers pick on someone they feel superior to and consider "easy pickings". So let me ask YOU a question, no insult intended, just curious, are you an abuser of people who are weaker than you or do you vent your frustrations through psychoanalystic insults only?

I'm sure you're aware that if you answer no and that you're only making observations and inquiries, you'll realize my answer was already the same.

I merely stated my observations of exaggerating Christians who claimed persecution at the slightest tug or pressure.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 10:36 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


I agree.

And again, to make it clear to any newcomers to the thread, this thread is not about the murderers around the world who kill many different types of people, including Christians. This thread is not even about the many Christians who murdered other Christians for differences in their beliefs.

It's about people who believe to be persecuted because they were programmed by a book, the Bible, to believe that they will be persecuted just for being a Christian and so exaggerate any and all of life's struggles claiming them to be the "persecution" of Christians they were already expecting.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 10:37 PM
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Originally posted by mmariebored

Psychoanalyzing "easy pickings"? By the way, only cowardice abusers pick on someone they feel superior to and consider "easy pickings". So let me ask YOU a question, no insult intended, just curious, are you an abuser of people who are weaker than you or do you vent your frustrations through psychoanalystic insults only?


In retrospect I should have asked what your motives were without suggesting one. You are completely correct and I apologize.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'cowardice abusers'. If you can elaborate I'll address that statement.

To answer your question, I didn't (and don't) think that I'm abusing anyone. If you can point out such an instance I will certainly apologize for my behavior and attempt to refrain from repeating that behavior in the future.

I'm also not aware of insulting anyone with the possible exception of a mildly facetious comment about 'low hanging fruit'. Please point out that instance and I will be happy to address it.

Eric



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 10:38 PM
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Strange double post. Sorry.

Eric

[edit on 7-10-2008 by EricD]



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 11:02 PM
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Hey folks! What happened to Jesus admonition of turning the other cheek?

In my experience, anyone who does not fit the general "mold" of a societal group will be looked down upon, and in the worse case scenario; persecuted. This involves many segments of society and many religions are included in that (look at the Jews!).

I am sorry to say, the worst group for judging the most would be; Christians. I have the benefit of once having been one (a stalwart Christian soldier), so I certainly have experienced that and have been guilty myself of that, in the past!

There are layers and layers of judging within a Christian faith, no less; the judging of people outside of the faith. This is a fact, and a big one! You cannot BS someone who's been there!

But...how often is one really persecuted, if this person is genuinely loving? It was brought out earlier that people are being persecuted when they were only feeding the children and helping people. This is no doubt true. But how often can one be persecuted due to extreme self-righteousness?

Motives...it gets down to motives. It is easy to read a persons motives as to whether they have proper motives or self-seeking motives. Nothing incenses anyone more than someone with "false concern!" This in of itself, can produce anger from the victim of this false concern.

Again, I have been there! But the name calling, and unchristian childish behavior (I know that many of you are actually young), does not cement your argument, but adds to the fumes that are around you. Please analyze your behavior, for I do not think that you would get an empathetic hearing ear from above, with this kind of behavior.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 11:10 PM
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reply to post by EricD
 


Actually, here is how it went:

I said, "...why do you keep coming back?"

To which you replied, "I'm flipping between this and setting up my fantasy football teams for week 6. I sometimes feel that I don't have the education necessary to 'play with the big boys' on the apologetic's field, but this one is pretty easy pickin's. Maybe because it's so easy to reach for the low hanging fruit?"

Downplay "low hanging fruit" and "easy pickin's" all you want, but you know as well as I do that to use condescending mannerisms with another human is to slap with a soft glove and carries the same weight as if you flat-out called them a bad name like "@$$hole". At least the bad name would have been an honest form of communication that you'd be unable to deny or alter the meaning of. No, you chose the snaky form of insulting someone which illuminates your playbook. And don't even bother to tidy. I'm all done this little game of cat and mouse with you, go play with someone else, I won't respond to you anymore because I hate liars.



posted on Oct, 7 2008 @ 11:12 PM
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reply to post by MatrixProphet
 


The whole premise for this thread (a Christian on another thread who claimed persecution)
DID NOT HAPPEN.

Why not just close it?




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