Originally posted by rapinbatsisaltherage

Religious people are often persecutors, not the persecuted. They are influenced to be hypocritical, and despite all the blatant hypocrisy and contradictions they don’t seem to recognize it or care.

congratulations, you've just described the HUMAN condition. there's not one group or individual on this planet, that doesn't have problems with blatant hypocracy, contradiction and other such issues. it's not isolated to anyone. i can show cases that every group and philosophical standpoint on this forum or the planet for that matter, have the same EXACT problems.

the real issue is one of extremes.
what we do with the data once we have it. do we use it to punish others? do we use it to enforce our beliefs on others. can we draw a dividing line between common sense and religious tenet (these often cross over one another which can be a source of consternation for those who see it simply as a matter of common sense and those who see it as a tenet of religion that just also happens to be sensible -- et.al, thou shall not kill, pretty sensible, yes? treat others as you would like to be treated, pretty sensible, yes? just cause we don't always adhere to what we all agree is sensible, doesn't mean it isn't still a good idea to be sensible).

I;'d like to pop in here and offer some of the examples o imagined persecution I can remember.

The best example I can give was this very conservative guy that used to preach on one of the local collage campuses. He was quite unkind and would often personalyl insult the people on the street during his sermons--for example, calling a girl in short shorts a slut or a man and a woman holding hands adulterors. Eventually he was forbidden to speak publically on campus, but threatned to sue the university for what he deemed to be encroaching on his right to religious freedom and free speech.

Another one happened to a church I used to attend. A group held a car wash at a grocery store. They had permission to use the lot from the store manager, but not the owner of the plaza, and so they were asked to leave the premises. They failed to follow the rules that would have been applied to anyone, but saw it as religious persecution.

The same thing happened to a guy who went to a night club to hand out tracts. This business did not allow the distribution of religious or political documents. I don't know if the guy knew the rules and ignored them or simply failed to ask the staff before sending out his flyers, but he was unjustifiable upset when he was asked to stop.

Originally posted by mmariebored

No, because not everyone stays the same over time. People change. They grow and learn. They "put away childish things"...it isn't right to torment a person forever for what they thought as a child. Some people are so busy with working, raising kids etc., they don't bother to question what they believe and why they believe it, and sometimes, just sometimes, God forces them to stop and listen to him instead of whatever dogma they found themselves in. This is called "waking up".

[edit on 7-10-2008 by mmariebored]

Maybe I'm misreading you here. Can you explain this a bit? Are you saying that those who look for (and often find) truth in a given religion are 'asleep' and those that move out of organized religion are 'awake'?

That seems to be awful close minded if I'm reading you right.

Eric

Originally posted by mmariebored
Go into any church and ask anyone if they feel "persecuted" just for being a Christian. I've done it. I've asked people. I've made poles on Christian forums and I know people, personally.

Were you engaging in hyperbole here, or did you actually go into Churches and start asking people if they felt that they were persecuted for being Christians?

That seems very odd to me. It seems to indicate that you have a committed agenda going into your fact finding mission as well as it's just strange.

Eric

Originally posted by asmeone2
I;'d like to pop in here and offer some of the examples o imagined persecution I can remember.

The best example I can give was this very conservative guy that used to preach on one of the local collage campuses. He was quite unkind and would often personalyl insult the people on the street during his sermons--for example, calling a girl in short shorts a slut or a man and a woman holding hands adulterors. Eventually he was forbidden to speak publically on campus, but threatned to sue the university for what he deemed to be encroaching on his right to religious freedom and free speech.

Another one happened to a church I used to attend. A group held a car wash at a grocery store. They had permission to use the lot from the store manager, but not the owner of the plaza, and so they were asked to leave the premises. They failed to follow the rules that would have been applied to anyone, but saw it as religious persecution.

The same thing happened to a guy who went to a night club to hand out tracts. This business did not allow the distribution of religious or political documents. I don't know if the guy knew the rules and ignored them or simply failed to ask the staff before sending out his flyers, but he was unjustifiable upset when he was asked to stop.

This is the reasoning behind the OP. I have had similar experiences to base my opinion on exaggerated "persecution" goes. One sticks out in my mind because it's the one that began my observation of the use of the term(I was very young).

It was 1987, and a certain Christian church, quite large, several hundreds of churches of this branch nationwide, came together in our area with some historical coding "facts" that "proved" that the rapture was going to happen in 1988 and the tribulation was going to begin. Massive tent revival meetings, concerts, picnics at the park in attempts to reach the masses with their warnings to hurry up and be saved. Some people actually went the extent of flying a plane all over the area and dropping papers that preached of this impending doom. The papers landed all over people yards, in the streets, parking lots etc. Many people were not happy about the litter, let alone the fearmongering message. The ones who distributed this mess were fined and they announced it in the church as "Christian persecution".

Originally posted by EricD
The Jeffrey Dahmer comment was silly (there's that word again) and a very obvious attempt at being prejudicial. Shall I start rattling off names of people that were Christians in early life, became something else and were horrible people?

Good evening, Eric. Shall we begin the night repeating more of the same?
I see we shall. But I shall not want the contest of rattlings off of names you speak of, no, I shall not want that. It shall getteth messy and the list shalleth be long, no, we shall not want that.

I'll join you on that limb and bet that the majority of people who convert to a religion know that religion better than most current adherents as well as the population at large (including people that are generally accepted to be well educated).

You're entitled to your own opinion. I disagree with you. I've stated in another thread that many people who preach nonsense for a long time and "spread the word" to everyone they know and people they don't know, have trouble backtracking and saying to all those people, "I messed up, I wish I'd never joined that religion and preached about the nonsensical dogma of my youth." Thus, anchoring themselves in sludge they don't even fully believe in and taking more people down with them as they continue to preach their ignorant dogma.

You are ascribing a motive out of ignorance (no insult intended, I'm using that term in the clinical sense). Your motivation to do so interests me. This is probably better off for another thread, but did some Christians do something to offend you personally?

Psychoanalyzing "easy pickings"? By the way, only cowardice abusers pick on someone they feel superior to and consider "easy pickings". So let me ask YOU a question, no insult intended, just curious, are you an abuser of people who are weaker than you or do you vent your frustrations through psychoanalystic insults only?

I'm sure you're aware that if you answer no and that you're only making observations and inquiries, you'll realize my answer was already the same.

I merely stated my observations of exaggerating Christians who claimed persecution at the slightest tug or pressure.

Originally posted by mmariebored

Psychoanalyzing "easy pickings"? By the way, only cowardice abusers pick on someone they feel superior to and consider "easy pickings". So let me ask YOU a question, no insult intended, just curious, are you an abuser of people who are weaker than you or do you vent your frustrations through psychoanalystic insults only?

In retrospect I should have asked what your motives were without suggesting one. You are completely correct and I apologize.

I'm not sure what you mean by 'cowardice abusers'. If you can elaborate I'll address that statement.

To answer your question, I didn't (and don't) think that I'm abusing anyone. If you can point out such an instance I will certainly apologize for my behavior and attempt to refrain from repeating that behavior in the future.

I'm also not aware of insulting anyone with the possible exception of a mildly facetious comment about 'low hanging fruit'. Please point out that instance and I will be happy to address it.

Eric

Strange double post. Sorry.

Eric

[edit on 7-10-2008 by EricD]

Hey folks! What happened to Jesus admonition of turning the other cheek?

In my experience, anyone who does not fit the general "mold" of a societal group will be looked down upon, and in the worse case scenario; persecuted. This involves many segments of society and many religions are included in that (look at the Jews!).

I am sorry to say, the worst group for judging the most would be; Christians. I have the benefit of once having been one (a stalwart Christian soldier), so I certainly have experienced that and have been guilty myself of that, in the past!

There are layers and layers of judging within a Christian faith, no less; the judging of people outside of the faith. This is a fact, and a big one! You cannot BS someone who's been there!

But...how often is one really persecuted, if this person is genuinely loving? It was brought out earlier that people are being persecuted when they were only feeding the children and helping people. This is no doubt true. But how often can one be persecuted due to extreme self-righteousness?

Motives...it gets down to motives. It is easy to read a persons motives as to whether they have proper motives or self-seeking motives. Nothing incenses anyone more than someone with "false concern!" This in of itself, can produce anger from the victim of this false concern.

Again, I have been there! But the name calling, and unchristian childish behavior (I know that many of you are actually young), does not cement your argument, but adds to the fumes that are around you. Please analyze your behavior, for I do not think that you would get an empathetic hearing ear from above, with this kind of behavior.