Persecution or Imagination

Originally posted by Lightmare
Therefore, if you have a problem with that, then you do, in fact, have a problem with Christians. Perhaps you should try some intellectual honesty instead of trying to appear more tolerant than you really are.

Can't speak for anyone but myself here, but personally I have no problem with Christianity itself, or most Christians. But I do take issue with someone refusing to accept that it is ok if I don't believe exactly as they do. I don't mind if they speak about their beliefs, to each their own. But that is no excuse to declare I am going to the land of fire and brimstone if I don't agree with them.

And lets get real here. Nobody is shoving anything down your throats. When you hear the message, you are quite free to accept or reject it as you see fit. You are your own person and you are free to make your own decisions. If it really bothers you that much to simply hear the Christian message, then the intolerance is actually on YOUR part, not the Christians.

While we are free to accept or reject it, there are times when some Christians try to take that ability away from us. Being forcibly prayed over comes to mind... All to "drive the devil out of me", when in reality I was not doing anything wrong except making up my mind that I didn't believe as my family did. Who was intolerant there? Oh yeah, they were. Like I said, I personally don't mind if people talk about their beliefs, but some do try to force it on everyone else and that is not their place. If the Christians are right and everyone else is wrong, I'll figure it out when I wake up surrounded by fire and brimstone with the devil standing over me.

Actually, Christians are among the most tolerant people that I know. It takes A LOT of tolerance to be of a strict monotheistic belief system while living in a society that tends to openly mock people who favor absolutism over relativism and political correctness. Just a little something to consider.

I know quite a few tolerant Christians as well. About the same number as intolerant ones actually. A few quotes from the bible come to mind...

Judge not, lest ye be judged.
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone.

Originally posted by Lightmare
Just a little FYI for all those who keep saying things like "I don't hate Christianity, I just hate people who shove their beliefs down my throat". Perhaps you don't seem to understand that spreading the Christian message, or proselytizing as some of you like to call it, is a VITAL and irreplaceable part of the Christian faith. It was taught by Jesus Christ himself. Therefore, if you have a problem with that, then you do, in fact, have a problem with Christians.

It's all fine to try and tell people about your faith, and let them decide whether or not to believe you. I have no problem with that.

I have more of a problem with, say, parents who teach their children their doctrine and scare their children to death, telling them that if they don't believe in their doctrine, they'll burn in Hell forever. I feel that that's mental abuse.

But you can't force a belief on an adult here in America.
Well maybe you might trick a few with some special lighting in a church, maybe some hypnotic music to open their mind to the illogical beliefs you're about to feed them, perhaps in some really desperate churches, fill the vents with laughing gas or some other psychedelic drug to get them to believe they just had a spiritual experience. Hey, it happens. Now that would be what I consider "forcing beliefs".

But if you only use honesty tactics in your approach to win someone over then you have nothing to worry about.

And if someone, for whatever personal reasons they might have, attacks you JUST for being a Christian, we have laws in America to protect you there too.

Originally posted by Jenna
At the heart of it, most religions are fundamentally the same, so what does it matter what name you choose to call your God. If there is one, I'm sure he/she/they/it wouldn't give a rats behind what you thought their name was, or if you declared you believe in them, so long as you are a good person, and treat others well. If that isn't good enough to get me into a heaven that may or may not exist, then I'm pretty sure I don't want to be there anyway. The persons character should be the important thing, not which prophet they choose to believe.

It's like you stole that right out of my head.

Originally posted by Bigwhammy
By the tone of the this thread and attitudes of many of the posters it is pretty clear that the persecution of Christians is the wave of the future. It's not like one day it just starts happening, it's starts with arrogance and attitudes of superiority I am seeing demonstrated here and like those held by the leaders of the communist regimes.

Anyone trying to express their views is going to sound "arrogant" or "superior" to someone with the opposite view. It's human nature to do this. To try and convince others we know what we're talking about and try and sway them. Sometimes it actually works. Hey, prophets used this technique and the more convincing they were, the bigger the following they had.
Today's crowd demands more proof to win them over.




Badmedia, couldn't agree more.

reply to post by Jenna


Thats the thing though. That whole eternal damnation and redemption thing is a BIG part, if not the most IMPORTANT part of the Christian faith. If not for that, Christians would have no reason at all share their beliefs with anyone.

As for that whole forced praying thing, I have to ask this. Did they have you strapped down to a chair or something? Could you not just get up and leave?

And that whole "judge not" fallacy is getting old. It often gets taken WAY out of context. It was never intended to be used as a means to tell Christians or anybody else to refrain from making any kind of judgement or from using discernment to make a judgement in regards to any particular behavior or belief that could be considered wrong or erroneous. When taken in its proper context, it is actually an admonition against finger pointing within the congregation itself. In other words, a Christian should have their own walk with God in good order before issuing a critique of another Christian's walk. But it was never intended as an admonition against ever making a judgement call based on observation or discernment.

[edit on 10/9/2008 by Lightmare]

Originally posted by mmariebored
I have more of a problem with, say, parents who teach their children their doctrine and scare their children to death, telling them that if they don't believe in their doctrine, they'll burn in Hell forever. I feel that that's mental abuse.

There is nothing wrong Christian parents teaching their children the Christian faith. And no, it is NOT mental abuse. I was taught about sin and Hell when I was a young child. Did my mother abuse me by doing so? Nope. Not at all. I laughed and played and had a happy childhood even after being taught about Hell. Imagine that.

Lest you think that my mother "brainwashed" me with her religion or something, I spent several years of my adult life having nothing to do with religion or Christianity. Not out of contempt or anything like that. I just had other things to do and think about. When I decided to embrace Christianity as an adult, it was based on my own reading and contemplation. Just thought I'd throw that in there.

Originally posted by Lightmare

Thats the thing though. That whole eternal damnation and redemption thing is a BIG part, if not the most IMPORTANT part of the Christian faith. If that not for that, Christians would have no reason at all share their beliefs with anyone.

I have read the Bible cover to cover and do not recall anything about fire or brimstone though. That is the main message I hear when someone tells me why I should believe in their God over a different one. And like I said, it doesn't bother me to talk to someone about their beliefs. I actually enjoy a good theological conversation now and again. But once it crosses the line from being a conversation to telling me it's either believe their way or end up in hell it goes from sharing to attempted forcing of beliefs. It is a scare tactic that simply doesn't work, at least not with me.

As for that whole forced praying thing, I have to ask this. Did they have you strapped down to a chair or something? Could you not just get up and leave?

Well, considering I was 13 and had four grown adults standing over me so that I couldn't stand up without pushing them away from me, no I couldn't just get up and leave. Instead I ran through the lyrics of every song I could remember in my head and ignored them as best I could until they finally stopped and tried talking to me instead of yelling, preaching, and praying at me. 13 year old's tend to be intimidated by four grown adults standing over them and I wasn't willing to push or hit any of them to get away. And being 13, where exactly was I supposed to go?

And that whole "judge not" fallacy is getting old. It often gets taken WAY out of context. It was never intended to be used as a means to tell Christians or anybody else to refrain from making any kind of judgement or from using discernment to make a judgement in regards to any particular behavior or belief that could be considered wrong or erroneous. When taken in its proper context, it is actually an admonition against finger pointing within the congregation itself. In other words, a Christian should have their own walk with God in good order before issuing a critique of another Christian's walk. But it was never intended as an admonition against ever making a judgement call based on observation or discernment.

Seems pretty straight forward to me..

Matthew 7

1Judge not, that ye be not judged.

2For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

3And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?

4Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?

5Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

.........

12Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

........

21Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

22Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

23And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Like I said, seems pretty straightforward. Deal with your own sins before you worry about the sins of others. Do to others what you would want them to do to you. Just because you say you follow the works of Jesus, doesn't mean you are or that you are going to heaven. Very few Christians are actually following Jesus' teachings and are completely free of sin, if any. Therefore, very few Christians, if any, are in a position to declare that others are sinners or will go to hell. Very hypocritical if you ask me. Not you specifically, I'm speaking generally here.

The way I see it, whenever someone follows Jesus exactly to the letter then they are in a position to preach to the rest of us. Find me the person who throws out the collection takers in churches. Find me the person who lives in absolute poverty with nothing more than the clothes on their back and wanders from place to place to teach people the same message Jesus is said to have taught. Find me the person who gives everything that is asked of them, even to their enemies, and never says no. Find me the person who has committed no sins at all. This person doesn't exist.

~~~~~

This is just my opinion, and I mean no offense to anyone. This can be a touchy subject regardless of what side of it you are on, and if my comments are seen as anything but my honest opinion I apologize now and didn't do it intentionally. I try not to be offensive when talking about religion, but it can be difficult to cover all the angles and make sure I get my point across without offending anyone! I think I may change my signature to a permanent disclaimer.

When it comes to judgment, I look at it like this. I think there is a difference between judging someone, and having an opinion about an action.

I get annoyed at people who judge others. I don't get annoyed at peoples opinions on things.

What bugs me about people who judge(IE: the outta be shot for that) is they often times put themselves above others to do so. I'll give you an example.

A friend of mine is a huge dog lover. I mean huge. He's all into that "I rescued this dog" kind of stuff. The entire time the Michael Vick stuff was going on, he was just going on and on about how bad they should treat him, and what a scum of a person Michael Vick was. Until it got to the point where I couldn't take it anymore and had to tell him to shut up.

I am of the opinion that Michael Vick did things very wrong. But my friend straight up judged him. That is the difference. It seems often times people get having an opinion about a topic or action, as judging the person instead.

Originally posted by Jenna

I have read the Bible cover to cover and do not recall anything about fire or brimstone though.

Oh Really?

I really have to wonder what Bible you read then. Certainly not the Christian one.

24 Then the Lord rained down fire and burning sulfur from the sky on Sodom and Gomorrah. Genesis 19:24

"I baptize you with water for repentance. But after me will come one who is more powerful than I, whose sandals I am not fit to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and with fire. Matthew 3:11

29 until the morning Lot left Sodom. Then fire and burning sulfur rained down from heaven and destroyed them all. Luke 17:29

BTW burning sulphur= brimstone

But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, 'Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, 'You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell. Matthew 5:22

Let burning coals fall upon them; may they be thrown into the fire, into miry pits, never to rise. Psalm 140:10

Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. Matthew 7:19

But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears? For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap.Malachi 3:2

There's a lot lot more... in fact Jesus talked more about Hell than any other subject. Notice it it is not something to be taken lightly or an allegorical device.

If your hand or your foot causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell. Matthew 18:8-9

Why so harsh? Because it really is that important not to go there. He was using a rhetorical device to cram a lot of meaning into a short statement by being extreme. Thus demonstrating just how serious sin really is.

He did add this in the next verse

 “Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven jtheir angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven.  For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.

Take heed indeed...








[edit on 10/9/2008 by Bigwhammy]

reply to post by Jenna


Well firstly, there are references to hell in Jesus' very own teachings. They come from the very book you were quoting from. i won't quote all the references here but you might want to check Matthew chapter 5 verse 22. And again in verses 29 and 30. Of course we could squabble over whether or not Jesus actually meant what he said but since these references are not in the form of a parable, most, not all, but most Christians agree that he meant exactly what he said. There are other references as well but their exact locations elude me at the moment. Although I can look them up for you if you want. If not then thats cool too. I don't want to seem like I'm thumping my Bible at you or anything like that.



In regards to what happened to you when you were 13, I must say that really sucks. I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. That would have pissed me off too. Please understand that type of behavior is actually confined to very small sects within Christianity. Even most "fundamentalists" know better than to act like that.


As for the "judge not" thing, I think we agree that the scriptures are quite clear...except for one little problem. I think we can both agree that we will never meet a "perfect" person from any religion. Which means we will never meet a "perfect" Christian either. The scriptures will also agree with this. Basically, it sounds like you're saying Christians should just sit down and shut up and not bother to speak the message at all since we can't be "perfect". This is fallacious on many levels.

For one thing, if anybody, Christians included, could actually be that perfect, there would have been no reason for Christ's redemptive work on the cross. And thus...no Christianity.

Second. The verses you quoted do not in any way cancel out Christ's call to spread the message. Neither do they indicate that Christians should not speak out against things that are wrong.

Third. My statement from my previous post still stands. The whole "judge not" thingy was never intended as a means for one person to say to another "No!!! Don't judge me!!!". It was an admonition to be mindful of one's own walk with the Lord and to have their own act together before forming any type of opinion of some else's. Hence the part about "then shall you see clearly to remove the mote from your brother's eye". But it was never intended to be used in the way most people try to use it.

Anyways...sorry for rambling on like that.

[edit on 10/9/2008 by Lightmare]

Looks like Bigwhammy was quicker on the keyboard than I was. And he found one of the verses that I couldn't find. Thanks Bigwhammy.



[edit on 10/9/2008 by Lightmare]

[edit on 10/9/2008 by Lightmare]

Originally posted by badmedia
When it comes to judgment, I look at it like this. I think there is a difference between judging someone, and having an opinion about an action.

I get annoyed at people who judge others. I don't get annoyed at peoples opinions on things.

I see it the same way, and I have no problem with opinions. Everyone is entitled to theirs. But for someone who really is no better than me or anyone else tell people that they are going to hell for not having the same belief is a step over the line. That isn't an opinion, that's a judgment.

reply to post by Bigwhammy


Thank you, like I said I couldn't recall. It has been awhile since I have read it, so some details are fuzzy to me. So thank you for that.

Originally posted by Lightmare
Although I can look them up for you if you want. If not then thats cool too. I don't want to seem like I'm thumping my Bible at you or anything like that.

No worries. Like I said, I enjoy a good conversation about religion.

In regards to what happened to you when you were 13, I must say that really sucks. I'm sorry to hear that happened to you. That would have pissed me off too. Please understand that type of behavior is actually confined to very small sects within Christianity. Even most "fundamentalists" know better than to act like that.

That's the thing. They weren't a small sect. They weren't wacky crazy people. And they weren't even hard-core fundamentalists. They just decided that that was the only thing that would "help" me. Apparently listening to the opinions of a "heathen" was the worst thing possible and they weren't even willing to try. These were people I knew extremely well and they had never acted like that before and haven't since that I am aware of.

As for the "judge not" thing, I think we agree that the scriptures are quite clear...except for one little problem. I think we can both agree that we will never meet a "perfect" person from any religion. Which means we will never meet a "perfect" Christian either. The scriptures will also agree with this. Basically, it sounds like you're saying Christians should just sit down and shut up and not bother to speak the message at all since we can't be "perfect". This is fallacious on many levels.

For one thing, if anybody, Christians included, could actually be that perfect, there would have been no reason for Christ's redemptive work on the cross. And thus...no Christianity.

And that was my point. Not that Christians should just sit down and shut up, but that no one is perfect. No one is any better than anyone else. And assuming that Christianity has the whole religion and God thing completely correct, they are not in a position to tell anyone they are going to hell for anything. As I have said, it doesn't bother me one tiny bit if someone wants to tell someone else what they believe and why. And I do like the occasional religious discussion, even though I am wrong about the occasional detail. (Apparently since I keep on coming back! ) However, once it crosses from discussing their religion to saying theirs is the only way and if you don't follow it too you are going to hell it crosses over into judging when that is one of the things mentioned in the Bible that you shouldn't do. Just because it isn't in the 10 Commandments doesn't mean it's ok to do it.

Second. The verses you quoted do not in any way cancel out Christ's call to spread the message. Neither do they indicate that Christians should not speak out against things that are wrong.

I never meant to insinuate that they did. I believe that everyone, not just Christians, should speak up for those who have been wronged. No one should stand idly by and allow atrocious things to be inflicted upon fellow human beings. However, there is a difference between spreading a message that at it's core is a great one, and basically saying it's my way or the highway. That goes for any religion, not just Christianity.

Third. My statement from my previous post still stands. The whole "judge not" thingy was never intended as a means for one person to say to another "No!!! Don't judge me!!!". It was an admonition to be mindful of one's own walk with the Lord and to have their own act together before forming any type of opinion of some else's. Hence the part about "then shall you see clearly to remove the mote from your brother's eye". But it was never intended to be used in the way most people try to use it.

Anyways...sorry for rambling on like that.

No, but I think that my point is still valid. No one is in a position to judge someone else. No one is perfect, everyone makes mistakes. Some more than others. And really, I don't think there is a person alive who has their act together, as you put it, enough to declare themselves judge of another's life with the exception of judges in the legal system but they don't declare themselves, they get voted in. It isn't a means to say "Don't judge me." But it is a reminder that you shouldn't judge anyone regardless of whether or not you think you have the right to. (Generic you, not specific you.) It is a reminder that just because you think you are right with your God doesn't mean you actually are. It has been my experience that many of those who do the shoving of religion down others' throats are the very ones who shouldn't be casting stones. Glass houses and all.

And I don't mind the rambling. I do it myself!

reply to post by Jenna


That whole thing about Hell is more complicated than most people realize. You don't go to Hell just because you believed the wrong thing. Its not about "my religion is better than your religion". Thats just stupid. What causes a person to go to Hell is failure to recieve attonement for one's sins....which, according to the scriptures, is unfortunately what happens if you happen to be of the belief that you need no such attonement.

As far as judging goes, I would have to agree that Badmedia summed it up pretty good. Basically, the focus should always be on the situation or behavior in question and NOT on the person involved.

Originally posted by Lightmare
That whole thing about Hell is more complicated than most people realize. You don't go to Hell just because you believed the wrong thing. Its not about "my religion is better than your religion". That's just stupid. What causes a person to go to Hell is failure to receive atonement for one's sins....which, according to the scriptures, is unfortunately what happens if you happen to be of the belief that you need no such atonement.

Your entire opinion here is based on what you read in a book.

How do you even know this is true?

What if you spend your whole life believing this book and you die and find out God would never make a place like that and your actions and behaviors have more to do with what happens to you after this life?

I've heard the Christian answer to that a billion times...as though read from a script, "But what if we're right and YOU'RE wrong, we'll be in Heaven and you'll be burning in Hell forever."

My response to that is, I wouldn't even want to BE in a Heaven with a God who would create a place called Hell for people who chose not to believe in Jesus and ~NOT~ give that horrible punishment to people who lived their whole lives murdering people and doing all manner of evils, only to turn around and accept Jesus' gift of atonement and live eternally in Heaven.

But no entry to Heaven for being good humans, treating others as they wanted to be treated during their life on earth, if you refuse to believe in Jesus because there is no proof of his existence and the whole thing is just illogical to you. It makes no sense.


"For he will be like a refiner's fire or a launderer's soap".--Malachi 3:2
By the way, I choose the laundry soap.

reply to post by 19DCW71


See, that's just your judgmental ignorance betraying you again.

You know nothing about me, nor do you know anything about by belief system, and I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you...

If you have a belief system based on sin, shame, guilt etcetera, that is your problem, not mine.

If you are a hypocrite, your words not mine, again that is your problem...

I do not, under any circumstance, give you the right to judge me, and my life, in accordance to your belief system...If you are ashamed of your failure to live up to your beliefs that has nothing to do with me, nor do I care, sympathize, or share your Guilt Trip.

In my belief system there is not such thing as "sin", so I have never sinned, it can't be done...

All those things you beat yourself down about, have no place in my belief system. I bow down to no man, much less to your Adult imaginary friend (a.k.a. God)...I see man as the supreme being, and I am on earth to satisfy, any way I can, my desires and needs. The only crime I could commit, under my belief system, would be the crime of depriving myself of earths enumerable pleasures...

So, if your judgmental religion makes you go around whining about everything you ever did, or though of doing, please move along to another door...I don't want, or need your product, nor will I accept to share your Hypocrisy...

reply to post by Lightmare


I know many communists that are Christians. Like I said, sometimes I flame them because of what I perceive to an incoherent line of though...If you think you can do better, be my guest...
As for calling Jesus a "Marxist" those are not my words, or beliefs, I clearly state that, some Communist/Christian friends that I have defend their views with that statement, as I clearly wrote, looks like you have some problems with your reading, or with your interpretation...

As for my "ignorant" last statement; well genius looks like you have, in a couple of words, debunked the whole science of Psychology and Human Behaviorism, which attribute, every one of them, the formative period of the Ego as being early childhood; so the formation of the Ego, and of your Persona are directly linked to the way a person is brought up...

Next time read my posts more clearly, try to distinguish between my opinions and the opinions I attribute to others...

I am in no way saying that Lenin, or Stalin, where Christians. I am saying they where brought up as Christians and, thus, have the same "framework" of the Christian Zealots: "If you don't agree with us, if you resist, you will burn for your "thought crime"...

Originally posted by Lightmare
reply to post by Jenna

 

That whole thing about Hell is more complicated than most people realize. You don't go to Hell just because you believed the wrong thing. Its not about "my religion is better than your religion". Thats just stupid. What causes a person to go to Hell is failure to recieve attonement for one's sins....which, according to the scriptures, is unfortunately what happens if you happen to be of the belief that you need no such attonement.

Perhaps that should be cleared up with the millions of people who think that is the case and tell others daily that they are going to hell for having different beliefs. And I agree, it is stupid. The way I see it, if I choose to believe that, assuming for the sake of argument that Christianity is correct, I should make it into heaven or hell based solely upon my merits and the person I am that is my right. If I decide that I would rather not be in heaven if all you have to do is say "Sorry" before you die to get there, that is my choice. (That's a bit of a simplification, but I think you get what I mean there.) If I decide that based on what I see around me every day that Christianity is wrong, there is no heaven or hell, and I choose not to believe in anything that is said in the Bible, that is my right. It is no one's place to tell me I'm going to hell for it.

As far as judging goes, I would have to agree that Badmedia summed it up pretty good. Basically, the focus should always be on the situation or behavior in question and NOT on the person involved.

I agree, but people tend to judge the person and not the deed.

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND

See, that's just your judgmental ignorance betraying you again.

I judge people on the basis of the truths and words they spek, not to portray myself in a better light or to assume I'm better than you or anyone for what we do.

You know nothing about me, nor do you know anything about by belief system, and I won't waste my time trying to explain it to you...

I know plenty about you and your beliefs. Here's a quote for you from your own words to disprove this ignorant accusation of yours.

Originally posted by NorthWolfe CND
In my belief system there is not such thing as "sin", so I have never sinned, it can't be done...

All those things you beat yourself down about, have no place in my belief system. I bow down to no man, much less to your Adult imaginary friend (a.k.a. God)...I see man as the supreme being, and

I am on earth to satisfy, any way I can, my desires and needs. The only crime I could commit, under my belief system, would be the crime of depriving myself of earths enumerable pleasures...

So, according to your belifs system and the words you express,you will satisfy your earthly desires ANY WAY you can .

So basically, according to your own convictions, you're willing to committ any act deemed necesary for you to fulfill your desires. Does this inolve criminal acts and atrocities to your fellow supreme human beings?

If you have a belief system based on sin, shame, guilt etcetera, that is your problem, not mine.

I fail to see how applying principals which betters one's own life and the way they act toward there fellow humans, as an actual problem. It would seem to be more beneficial to EVERYONE, from my perspective.

If you are a hypocrite, your words not mine, again that is your problem...

I do not, under any circumstance, give you the right to judge me, and my life, in accordance to your belief system...

You, do not give me anything or will you EVER take anything from me. I am a man and NOBODY on this earth will EVER tell me what I can or cannot do. Remember that........ PAL

If you are ashamed of your failure to live up to your beliefs that has nothing to do with me, nor do I care, sympathize, or share your Guilt Trip.

I am far from ashamed of the man I am and the adversity I've overcome. Defating the trials and tribulations set before me in life help to build character and morality.

Your sympathy , show me where I ever asked for it. I would want NOTHING from you or somebody of your stature.You unfortunately have gained my sympathy.

So, if your judgmental religion makes you go around whining about everything you ever did, or though of doing, please move along to another door...I don't want, or need your product, nor will I accept to share your Hypocrisy...

I, first of all don't practice RELIGION.Just another form of opression. I'm not whining either, just stating a FACT . I never pushed my beliefs on you and if you open your eyes you will realize that I could personally care less if you or ANYONE else shares my beliefs and I don't go pushing my agenda on anyone. It's a free world and I'll do or say whatever I feel and need not seek YOUR APPROVAL so thanks.

Your accusations and assumptions are just that. ACCUSATIONS AND ASSUMPTIONS and from the way you express yourself in your posts, It sounds like you're the one whining.

[edit on 10-10-2008 by 19DCW71]

[edit on 10-10-2008 by 19DCW71]

It is so ironic to me that one can say that there is only one Bible that is accurate while others are not.

None of them are!!! All translations and versions were knock offs of copies and never from the original writings as there were no original writings left, or around, during any of the writings of editions or manuscripts!! The different manuscripts were from copies after copies, never the original. Here is an example:

"The King James Version is filled with places in which the translators rendered a Greek text derived ultimately from Erasmus's edition, which was based on a single twelfth-century manuscript that is one of the worst of the manuscripts that we now have available to us! It's no wonder that modern translations often differ from the King James, and no wonder that some Bible-believing Christians prefer to pretend there's never been a problem, since God inspired the King James Bible instead of the original Greek!...

Reality is never neat, however, and in this case we need to face up to the facts. The King James was not given by God but was a translation by a group of scholars in the early seventeenth century who based their rendition on a faulty Greek text!" - Bart C. Ehrman "Misquoting Jesus - The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why."

We can debate verse for verse, hellfire, the trinity and the cross, and still have no idea what was actually said by Jesus or his apostles, or know for a fact, what actually took place.

I feel the need to keep sharing this fact for those who are not brainwashed and are truly seeking truth. This correct understanding of the Bible needs to be understood.

Everyone is just debating theology based on complete hearsay and inventions! And are promoting something that may have little or no reality to it.

reply to post by MatrixProphet



I can't agree with you more. All books only have partial truths to them. After all they are written by humans w/an agenda.

As a matter of fact, some of us on this thread can't even comprehend the actual meanings of a persons post, so how can we decipher ancient languages and texts with absolute cetainty.

This is why I apply the positive aspects of ANY book to my life and disgard what is of no use to me.Also why I don't force my beliefs on anyone. Nothing wrong imho to speak about ones beliefs but I never ask people to convert and conform to my beliefs. Everyone has their own minds and life experiences, so everyone's entitled to their opinions and beliefs.

Already starred for posting a FACT.

reply to post by 19DCW71


Thank you! I also believe that there is a purpose to the Bible and take from it what I feel to be right.

We thought that the "Age of Enlightenment" was a few centuries ago...but I feel this is the ultimate age of new enlightenment if one is willing to meet it!

Enlightenment often occurs within parallel levels with dire circumstances that are happening around us. We just have to be awake to see it, and to filter it!

Originally posted by 19DCW71
This is why I apply the positive aspects of ANY book to my life and disgard what is of no use to me.Also why I don't force my beliefs on anyone. Nothing wrong imho to speak about ones beliefs but I never ask people to convert and conform to my beliefs. Everyone has their own minds and life experiences, so everyone's entitled to their opinions and beliefs.

If only the everyone who holds religious beliefs could behave the same way, might make the world a much nicer place to live.