Persecution or Imagination

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posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 09:48 PM
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I believe that many Christians today are not as persecuted as they imagine they are. The biggest reason they imagine they are persecuted is that, in the Bible, they are told that they will be persecuted just for following Christ.

All of the gospel books have instances of persecution and the "prophetic" books tell of futuristic persecution being far worse than anything suffered in the history of suffering, typical of Biblical progressions of horrors. Nice book.

So naturally, one who follows such a book will mentally prepare themselves for any and all attacks made by nonbelievers, even if there's a seemingly good reason for the "persecution" OTHER than simply because they are Christian.


Originally posted by 19DCW71
That's like saying biblical Christians were only slaughtered because they believed they were persecuted. The Jews in biblical times were only slaughtered because they believed they were. The holocaust only happened because they BELIEVED they were persecuted.
So if I analyzed this statement, I would have to take it to mean that it's either basically the fault of the ones persecuted for believing themselves to be or the persecution wasn't real but only a perception in their own minds.

I'm talking about Christians who claim they are specifically targeted for persecution.
The holocaust has nothing to do with Christian persecution. Hitler hated the Jews because he felt threatened by them. He targeted them for extermination along with anyone he felt was a threat. I'm sure, had his plans succeeded, his camps that destroyed so many Jewish people would have gladly welcomed any and all other enemies that disrupted his plans of world domination.

Nero, for similar reasons as Hitler, killed off many early Christians.
Yes, they actually WERE "persecuted".

From wiki:

Early Christian tradition often holds Nero as the first persecutor of Christians and as the killer of Apostles Peter and Paul. There was also a belief among some early Christians that Nero was an Antichrist....
..."since the Jews constantly made disturbances at the instigation of Chrestus, he [the emperor Claudius] expelled them from Rome" ("Iudaeos impulsore Chresto assidue tumultuantis Roma expulit"). These expelled "Jews" may have been early Christians, although Suetonius is not explicit. Nor is the Bible explicit, calling Aquila of Pontus and his wife, Priscilla, both expelled from Italy at the time, "Jews."


If you go down the whole line throughout the history books, you'll find that the other Christians who were persecuted were mostly done so by their own.

Christians were the biggest persecutors of anyone who didn't follow their beliefs because they felt they had the right to do so, given by Jesus himself. Similar to the second largest religious group's pattern of behavior towards people who aren't a part of their "faith", though, Christians were slightly less violent, dew to self-righteousness.

"The Mohammedan religion too would have been much more compatible to us than Christianity. Why did it have to be Christianity with its meekness and flabbiness..."--Hitler




posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 09:52 PM
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Starred and flagged because I agree 100%.

For most Christians in the States their definition of "persecution" is "I can't convert you."

It's like playing the "race" card except much more transparent, because they *chose* to become Christian.

Even more frustrating is when one does try to expose this narcisism for what it is, they are met with an article about how Christians are killed in India or China or some faroff place.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 10:14 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2
Even more frustrating is when one does try to expose this narcissism for what it is, they are met with an article about how Christians are killed in India or China or some far off place.

China and India have every reason to worry about the spread of religions that keep their victims encased in an unbudging frame of mind and looking forward to the destruction of the earth just before they get "raptured" out of here, saving themselves. I don't believe it's so much "persecution" over there, as it is preventing mass stupidity.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 10:30 PM
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China and India have every reason to worry about the spread of religions that keep their victims encased in an unbudging frame of mind and looking forward to the destruction of the earth just before they get "raptured" out of here, saving themselves. I don't believe it's so much "persecution" over there, as it is preventing mass stupidity.




Yes, but what tends to happen to me--I've even seen it on this board--is I'll attempt to call someone out using the arguments they've described, then get the "But in China..." argument.

And BTW agreed again.... though I can't personally say that their religions are better.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 10:42 PM
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Originally posted by mmariebored
China and India have every reason to worry about the spread of religions... I don't believe it's so much "persecution" over there, as it is preventing mass stupidity.


You *snip*!!!

Those people are being MURDERED. What you just said equates with it being ACCEPTABLE to you to KILL THEM because you deem their beliefs 'stupid.'

If I said such a thing about another group on this board, ATS would have me on a platter. But I guess it's okay to say sympathize with the murder of Christians because their beliefs are stupid.

I'm talking about FAMILIES being killed... CHILDREN... being killed... because of their beliefs.

You basically just said the persecution of people is really no big deal because they're just stupid Christians.





[edit on 10/6/2008 by AshleyD]

[edit on 10/6/2008 by Djarums]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 10:48 PM
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Editing out this comment and consolidating it with the post above. No need for two in a row. Sorry, I was just irate after reading the original poster's second post to this thread.

[edit on 10/6/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 10:52 PM
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In your zeal to trivialize genocide. You missed some of the biggest persecutors of the Christian church in history. More Christians were killed and persecuted by the Catholics than the Romans.

• The war on the German Protestants (1566-1609)
• War on Protestants of Netherlands (1566-1609)
• Huguenot Wars in France (1572 -1598)
• Philip’s attempt against England (1588)
• Thirty Years War (1618-1648)

All these wars were started by Roman Catholic Kings urged on by the
Pope and Jesuits for the purpose of crushing Protestantism. The
thousands killed at the hands of the Caesars of Pagan Rome are
dwarfed by the millions killed at the hands of the Vatican.

You also forgot the atheist leaders of communist Russia & Mao's China who killed millions of Christians and destroyed the churches. In China, Cuba, India and North Korea it continues to this day. And you guys are snickering and cracking jokes about innocent men women and children being slaughtered for believing in Jesus Christ. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I guess you guys would have fit in well in Nazi Germany.



[edit on 10/5/2008 by Bigwhammy]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 10:56 PM
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Hey now, I'm not saying those lives are worthless at all.

I'm calling out the people here in America where we still enjoy religious freedom--especially if you're a Christian--who think they can empathize with those people who are truly at risk because of their beleifs, just because they are of the same religion.

If anything that's more reprehensible than denying that the suffering is happening.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:06 PM
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Originally posted by Bigwhammy
And you guys are snickering and cracking jokes about innocent men women and children being slaughtered for believing in Jesus Christ. You should be ashamed of yourselves. I guess you guys would have fit in well in Nazi Germany.


I agree. This makes me sick.

Not surprised, but sick.

I can't believe this is even allowed... or can I. Who the hell knows anymore.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:09 PM
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This is just silly.

You construct a straw man that is representative of Christians and then smack him around for claiming that Christians are persecuted.

I'm not saying that your experiences are not valid, but I will say that they are anecdotal and not representative.

I know lots of Christians. I have known lots of Christians. I know Christians of every (pretty much) stripe and persuasion. I can't remember a single Christian discussing how they are prosecuted. I don't know a single Christian that thinks that they are persecuted.

The closest that I have seen is a friend who is a member of the LDS church who has a bit of a thin skin about some things.

The closest your argument comes to any reality that I am familiar with is that Christians believe that they WILL be persecuted at some point if we are nearing the end times or that Christians are often concerned about and discuss Christians in Russia, China and the mid east who are persecuted.

Have a nice week!

Eric



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:14 PM
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Some Christians here in America believe they are persecuted because of their new interpretation of ancient texts are rightly ridiculed when they shout them out at the top of their lungs and try to legislate these insane ideas.Proselytizing a belief system does not have to include making it secular law.It is wrong that some Christians overseas are still persecuted and it should stop.Just because Christianity has been responsible for mass murder in the past does not make it right to murder them here in the present.But,you will find that contemporary persecution is not limited to Christians in these countries that have been mentioned in this thread.Dissenters of all kinds have been persecuted.Political and religious.So the argument that Christians are still being martyred wholesale is ludicrous.By the way, "Rapture" is probably one of the silliest(and newest)ideas I have ever heard.It ranks right up there with the "lord xenu" myths of the scientologists as far as I am concerned.

[edit on 113131p://1217 by daeoeste]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:17 PM
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Originally posted by daeoeste
Some Christians here in America believe they are persecuted because of their new interpretation of ancient texts are rightly ridiculed when they shout them out at the top of their lungs and try to legislate these insane ideas.Proselytizing a belief system does not have to include making it secular law.It is wrong that some Christians overseas are still persecuted and it should stop.Just because Christianity has been responsible for mass murder in the past does not make it right to murder them wholesale here in the present.You will find that contemporary persecution is not limited to Christians in these countries that have been mentioned in this thread.Dissenters of all kinds have been persecuted.Political and religious.So the argument that Christians are still being martyred wholesale is ludicrous.By the way, "Rapture" is probably one of the silliest(and newest)ideas I have ever heard.It ranks right up there with the "lord xenu" myths of the scientologists as far as I am concerned.


If anything, it's the people who aren't Christians that are persecuted in this country.

And what's not often mentione is that in these places where Christians are still persecuted, the treatement us usually measured out evenly to anyone of a beleif system that differes from the status quo.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:21 PM
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reply to post by AshleyD
 


I know Ashley, I'm sorry some people who post here are so callous cruel and brutal to diminish lives based on beliefs. I know Americans personally that have been jailed and are in threat of death for being missionaries, simply feeding the poor and spreading the gospel. Their lives are at risk and these twisted jokers are cracking jokes.

If this thread was about a racial or ethnic group it would be locked and/or deleted ... BUT because it demeans Christians and trivializes their murder it is acceptable. This threads existence is in fact evidence which disproves its own premise. It is a prime example itself of Christian persecution in that it trivializes murder, torture, and human rights violations in a pathetic attempt to somehow feel superior and have a chuckle.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:23 PM
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Originally posted by asmeone2


China and India have every reason to worry about the spread of religions that keep their victims encased in an unbudging frame of mind and looking forward to the destruction of the earth just before they get "raptured" out of here, saving themselves. I don't believe it's so much "persecution" over there, as it is preventing mass stupidity.




Yes, but what tends to happen to me--I've even seen it on this board--is I'll attempt to call someone out using the arguments they've described, then get the "But in China..." argument.

And BTW agreed again.... though I can't personally say that their religions are better.

They're not better, i.m.o.

Personally, I'm against ALL organized religions because, 1)it's ridiculous to canonize a belief system in an ever-changing world and 2)if you're going to believe in a God, wouldn't it make sense to believe that a God who made so many different types of people wouldn't play favorites to one specific type of person and their beliefs?



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:28 PM
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reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


I think it is overstating it quite a bit to think that this thread constitutes persecution.

A silly OP with callous and demeaning follow-ups, but it doesn't rise to the level of persecution.

Seriously, I can't stress strongly enough that I can't remember ONCE in my 40 years on this Earth having a conversation with another Christian who that he was being persecuted for his religion.

Eric



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:39 PM
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Originally posted by EricD
reply to post by Bigwhammy
 


I think it is overstating it quite a bit to think that this thread constitutes persecution.

A silly OP with callous and demeaning follow-ups, but it doesn't rise to the level of persecution.

Seriously, I can't stress strongly enough that I can't remember ONCE in my 40 years on this Earth having a conversation with another Christian who that he was being persecuted for his religion.

Eric

The whole reason I posted this thread is because the person I quoted in the OP claimed they were a "persecuted" Christian.

I don't believe it's OK to kill Christians ANYWHERE on this planet, and I don't deny this goes on. But the groups who kill Christians are, nine times out of ten, groups who would kill ANYONE who goes against their own beliefs, government, etc.

This thread is about Christians, right here in America, who cry and whine about being "persecuted" JUST for being a Christian...it makes no sense.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by mmariebored]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:46 PM
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Originally posted by AshleyD

Originally posted by mmariebored
China and India have every reason to worry about the spread of religions that keep their victims encased in an unbudging frame of mind and looking forward to the destruction of the earth just before they get "raptured" out of here, saving themselves. I don't believe it's so much "persecution" over there, as it is preventing mass stupidity.


You sick bastard!!!

Those people are being MURDERED. What you just said equates with it being ACCEPTABLE to you to KILL THEM because you deem their beliefs 'stupid.'

If I said such a thing about another group on this board ATS would have my ass on a platter.

But I guess it's okay to say kill the Christians because their beliefs are stupid.

I'm talking about FAMILIES being killed... CHILDREN... being killed... because of their beliefs.

This person just said the persecution of people is really no big deal and should even be encouraged because they're just stupid Christians.

[edit on 10/5/2008 by AshleyD]

Nice try, but I never said it was OK to kill anyone.
My idea of "just saying no" to a religious beliefs is closing the door on people who try to persuade you to convert to their beliefs.

Don't put words in my mouth just because what I say goes against your personal beliefs. You just proved my case that "christians" are the ones who run around persecuting people who don't believe what they do. Just look at your very judgmental avatar...oh yeah, that's going to get me to join your faith...and you stole that artwork without permission, by the way, shame on you..."christian"...



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:49 PM
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reply to post by asmeone2
 


I can understand that. In the East they are tortured, murdered, have their property confiscated, imprisoned, etc. In the West, we're pretty much ridiculed. As irritating as that is, pretty much every group is ridiculed in one way or another. I let it get to me too much but that is just how it goes. I'm even guilty of it, too.

The O.P. didn't really even bother me so much but once I read the 2nd comment basically implying Eastern persecution was excusable because it's just Christians and their 'stupid' beliefs made my blood boil. I took that as making light of something very, very serious.

I was planning on totally ignoring this thread because I can understand how the 'persecuted Western Christian' melodramatic complex can come across to non-Christians. I try hard to see it both ways- Until I read that one comment and became incensed. Persecution- real, solid, physical persecution, is not acceptable under any means.

[edit on 10/6/2008 by AshleyD]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:53 PM
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reply to post by mmariebored
 


SNIPPED

But not before I remind you of your own words:


I don't believe it's so much "persecution" over there, as it is preventing mass stupidity.


Yes. Agree. Kill them, torture them, confiscate their property, imprison them... to prevent the spread of Christianity... er 'stupidity.'

Ignored.

ADMIN EDIT: Removed unnecessary name calling.

[edit on 6-10-2008 by Crakeur]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 11:55 PM
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Yes I take serious umbrage to the way that some Christians here in the states put someone challenging or ridiculing their beleifs on the same level as someone being killed for them.





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