The history of the devil

Originally posted by enduser
Im interested to know in what way the devil would own you when you pass on from this life?

It's difficult to relate because in this life we kind of 'own ourselves' and can sell ourselves to whomever we wish, whether that's a job for a while, school, and so forth. In a lot of ways marriage is dedicating yourself to that significant others as well as any children and grandchildren you may have afterwards. Run as you may, you're still a marriage partner, parent and/or grandparent. That title does not leave you. After this life when you become ownship of the devil, there's no where to even run. You're his en totale for him and he takes pleasure in the suffering of others.

Presumably you mean the devil would own your soul?

Ya, that's the part left of you after death.

if so, i was under the impression (perhaps falsely) that your soul is no ones property other than gods, seeing as god created all?

Nope, we wanted to be on our own and got our wish. Is it a blessing or a curse? Many feel it is more of a curse than a blessing...but there's something to be said for being able to learn and grow as well.

How can you truly sell something if it is not yours to sell?

When given the ability to choose or decide, we've taken responsibility for the soul. Where it goes, what it does. To prove it, leave your house and go wherever you want within a five minute walk. After five minutes ask yourself, "did I go where I wanted? Or did I go where someone else wanted?"

Also, what happens to those whom do not chose to support either side, one that does not support either god nor the devil?

Judgement. If an individual doesn't decide, it will be decided at the time their eternal destination is to begin.

Presumably you mean ones soul?

Yes, it is undeniably the most valuable commodity in the universe.

or do you mean more power over god?

That's the devil's plan. A believer in God would say it is destined to failure. A theistic Satanist believes it's th3 roadmap to ultimate victory.

Lets say that every creature ever born throughout the whole of the universe decided to join forces with the devil, how do you think god would react to this?

We can already know this in both history and things written about what is to come.

Also, this has popped up in my mind a few times, why is the devil allowed to continue to exist?

This question will probably vary from person to person. I say the reason is to bring us to mature into making the tough decisions. I believe that later on in the timeline we're going to be making much harder chooses than mere good or evil.

and do you think that there could ever be a greater evil than the devil itself?

I almost wrote "nope" but that would assume I know more than what's written and I don't nor have I any prophetic abilities. I can say that for at least a thousand years, he'll be the biggest name in evil.

So basically youre saying that anyone that doesnt follow the christain will of god is evil and will not be allowed into heaven?

Negative. If I gave this impression previously, I apologize. Every Christian should know that if a person is not saved by Christ, the following is written:

"And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books." - Revelation 20:12

ps. im sure its mentioned somewhere that the devil once worked for god, am i wrong thinking that?

That seems to be the case. How much work he actually did I don't know.

i mean, if he were kicked out of heaven surely it was once better than it is now?

Maybe. It could've been that his nature was revealed. An interesting topic to debate. Did the devil change or was he a rotten egg all along?

Originally posted by saint4God
That's his side of the story.

Well, no, that's just what he desires. He isn't making accusations, he just doesn't think you, I or anyone else should worship the sort of god that would create suffering in small children and puppies.

Originally posted by saint4GodIt's a trap

Well if I had a perverse reason to make people worship me, I'd say that too.

"Don't think for yourself, it's a trap"? Honestly, have you learned nothing from the fable of the Tower of Babel?

Originally posted by saint4Godand would allow to you 'live free' only until it's time to collect payment.

...does God run some kind of protection racket? You make him sound like a Sicilian mobster.

Doesn't sound all-loving, all-forgiving to me. But that's the inherent contradiction about all this rubbish isn't it?

Originally posted by saint4GodDon't need to take my word on it though.

I don't, I've read the Bible and I know what it says. Satan still seems like the good guy, God just seems like a tyrannical emperor.

Originally posted by saint4GodHow do you know?

I'm a prophet? That's the sort of thing it takes to convince you, judging by your faith, so you can just take it on faith I had a revelation and just know.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Well, no, that's just what he desires.

I'll accept that.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
He isn't making accusations,

Are you sure? You sound pretty confident about that.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
he just doesn't think you,

True, and thank God for it.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I or anyone else should worship the sort of god that would create suffering in small children and puppies.

Well, I don't know, it sounds like he thinks like you...or rather you him. The voice is very familiar to me.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Well if I had a perverse reason to make people worship me, I'd say that too.

What perverse reason have I to make people worship me?

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
"Don't think for yourself, it's a trap"?

This is a misquote. I did not say this.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Honestly, have you learned nothing from the fable of the Tower of Babel?

I don't study fables, but on the historical account of the Tower of Babel I'm not sure I see the correlation.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
...does God run some kind of protection racket? You make him sound like a Sicilian mobster.

I was talking about the devil, and yes there are similarities between the devil and a mobster that is not coincidental.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Doesn't sound all-loving, all-forgiving to me. But that's the inherent contradiction about all this rubbish isn't it?

See above.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I don't, I've read the Bible and I know what it says. Satan still seems like the good guy, God just seems like a tyrannical emperor.

Then you and the devil have that in common.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I'm a prophet?

Why are you asking me?

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
That's the sort of thing it takes to convince you,

How do you know?

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
judging by your faith,

Yes, I can see you're swinging that mighty judgement hammer of your superior intellect and wisdom. Careful, when I duck, you may smack yourself across the face.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
so you can just take it on faith I had a revelation and just know.

No dice. You won't be conviced by me saying "take it on faith and revelation and just know". Let's stand on even ground shall we? Your voice is diminishing standing on that pillar.

[edit on 10-10-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by enduser


Enduser, fear is one of the main driving forces of humanity - and no church, no ruler, no worldly power has anything to do with it.
There is no "conspiracy" to instill fear of the unknown into humans - because humanity is defined by ignorance, by un-knowing (of its own condition, of the true dimensions of life and what afterlife there may be).
And ignorance naturally breeds fear. Existential fear.
There is nothing artificially constructed or manipulated about existential fear AKA fear of the unknown.

Ambush a child - or an adult, for that matter - anywhere in the world, regardless of the culture, and try to lead them away from their environment... Would you, would anyone, be surprised if they showed fear and resistance, even to gentle persuasion?

It's not pain what they fear - it's the "unknown".
An "unknown" that is, in fact, much wider than their present circumstances. It's the basic, existential fear of a being who doesn't know what life, existence, is really about.

I commend your interest in history and sociology; but I do hope you approach TV presentations with a hefty dose of healthy skepticism.
I used to LOVE National Geographic, Discovery, BBC (etc.) documentaries - until I discovered just how deeply flawed their perspective can be.
(Take Terry Jones, for example. I adore him in "Monty Python"; but as a historian... well, he could be better. Like, much better. Unless one sees history for what it is - a dynamic movement of the human spirit, with all its yearnings and fears - and treats it accordingly, any "historic" account will be a mere litany of basically useless, insight-less "facts".)

Beware of those who try to warp even basic human drives into constructs, endlessly manipulated by the "powers that be". By doing that, they are reducing you into such a "construct".

On the subject of the history of the devil, this is a pretty good read, albeit a long and somewhat tedious one. It is quite extensive and well researched.
here

Originally posted by saint4God
Are you sure? You sound pretty confident about that.

Very.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
he just doesn't think you,

True, and thank God for it.

Er right.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I or anyone else should worship the sort of god that would create suffering in small children and puppies.

Well, I don't know, it sounds like he thinks like you...or rather you him. The voice is very familiar to me.

Are...are you calling me the devil? Are you saying God didn't create everything that has existed or could possibly exist?

If this cryptic remark is an attempt at winning this debate, it's quite woeful.

Originally posted by saint4God
What perverse reason have I to make people worship me?

I think you'll find I was referring to God. Unless you happen to have created your own religion, with a different god and a new prophet who, judging by your avatar, looks a lot like Jesus, I was extrapolating that you claiming it was a "trap" is derived from the teachings of Jesus according to the Bible. Am I right?

Originally posted by saint4God
"Don't think for yourself, it's a trap"?

This is a misquote. I did not say this.

I said "the notion of think for yourself" and you said "It's a trap and would allow to you 'live free' only until it's time to collect payment". I didn't misquote you, I just abridged what you'd put.

But you were implying free thought, and thus thought against God, was a negative idea.

Originally posted by saint4God
I don't study fables, but on the historical account of the Tower of Babel I'm not sure I see the correlation.

I'd like to see this historical account, please. All information we have about the, literally, mythic Tower of Babel comes only from fables. If you don't know about it, perhaps you should study it more and stop being willfully obtuse with the subject matter.

Address my points or don't bother replying, please, and I will treat you with the same courtesy.

Originally posted by saint4God
I was talking about the devil, and yes there are similarities between the devil and a mobster that is not coincidental.

Ah, I can't help but feel like Columbo about now - what payment exactly is the Devil asking? What punishments is he threatening me with if I don't pay?

I know what punishments God is threatening me with for stepping out of line - an eternity in the lake of fire. I'd like to hear what the Devil has to present, because I can't see it being nearly as bad.

I can't recall one instance of the Devil doing anything but offering various boons to people.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I don't, I've read the Bible and I know what it says. Satan still seems like the good guy, God just seems like a tyrannical emperor.

Then you and the devil have that in common.

Well observed, we share the same point of view, but that doesn't explain or excuse why God is acting like a dictator who isn't actually in control of anything. He sounds like he's using conditioning to make everyone think he is, though. But this is just the psychologist in me speaking now.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I'm a prophet?

Why are you asking me?

You're right, I should have said "I'm a prophet!"

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
That's the sort of thing it takes to convince you,

How do you know?

That's true, I don't, but this is what one calls a "conclusion" drawn by your saint4God username, Jesus avatar and general profession to the Christian faith in almost all your posts.

To be a Christian means acceptance of the OT prophets and Jesus as the son of God. Thus, you must be convinced by prophets, or you would not be a Christian.

Originally posted by saint4God

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
judging by your faith,

Yes, I can see you're swinging that mighty judgement hammer of your superior intellect and wisdom. Careful, when I duck, you may smack yourself across the face.

You do duck these questions and points muchly, I'll grant you that. Whether you can man up and address some of these niggling little points is probably down to fate. I mean, God.

Originally posted by saint4God
No dice. You won't be conviced by me saying "take it on faith and revelation and just know". Let's stand on even ground shall we? Your voice is diminishing standing on that pillar.

I nearly hemorrhaged my nose off laughing at this statement. The gigglesnort is one of God's uglier curses.

You won't take what I say on faith, but you'll take the word of an ancient madman who spent too much time up a mountain?

Don't give me this "no dice" crap, you take everything on faith, so why not just take that next small step? And why not just admit you do take things on faith, aka, your religious outlook?

[edit on 10-10-2008 by C.C.Benjamin]

[edit on 10-10-2008 by C.C.Benjamin]

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Are...are you calling me the devil?

Not at all. Are you calling me God?

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Are you saying God didn't create everything that has existed or could possibly exist?

God created everything, including the ability for us to make decisions.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
If this cryptic remark is an attempt at winning this debate, it's quite woeful.

I don't care about winning a debate. It's a silly and pointless goal.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I think you'll find I was referring to God.

Let's review:

Originally posted by saint4God
It's a trap

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Well if I had a perverse reason to make people worship me, I'd say that too

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Unless you happen to have created your own religion, with a different god and a new prophet who, judging by your avatar, looks a lot like Jesus, I was extrapolating that you claiming it was a "trap" is derived from the teachings of Jesus according to the Bible. Am I right?

That was unclear. I have not 'created my own religion'. I did not derive this from the teachings of Jesus, it's a warning from my experiences before I knew Jesus or God.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I said "the notion of think for yourself" and you said "It's a trap and would allow to you 'live free' only until it's time to collect payment". I didn't misquote you, I just abridged what you'd put.

It is a misquote. I used 'live free' in quotes because under the devil's guidance you think you're living free but in fact are a tool until the time comes where you realize you werent.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
But you were implying free thought, and thus thought against God, was a negative idea.

We all have freedom to think. This should be indisputable.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I'd like to see this historical account, please. All information we have about the, literally, mythic Tower of Babel comes only from fables. If you don't know about it, perhaps you should study it more and stop being willfully obtuse with the subject matter.

Nice assumption that I know nothing about it. Because I claim it to be historical fact, it implies I do know something about it, hence your defensive(?) statement above.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Address my points or don't bother replying, please, and I will treat you with the same courtesy.

I'm addressing them. What questions do you have for me?

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Ah, I can't help but feel like Columbo about now - what payment exactly is the Devil asking? What punishments is he threatening me with if I don't pay?

The only thing that exists beyond death. Call it spirit, soul, whatever, it's the only capital that survives. You have no choice but to pay when committed.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I know what punishments God is threatening me with for stepping out of line - an eternity in the lake of fire. I'd like to hear what the Devil has to present, because I can't see it being nearly as bad.

The same. Since you're Biblically versed, you know already I'm speaking about Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 12:9

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I can't recall one instance of the Devil doing anything but offering various boons to people.

I'm confident that you cannot.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Well observed, we share the same point of view, but that doesn't explain or excuse why God is acting like a dictator who isn't actually in control of anything. He sounds like he's using conditioning to make everyone think he is, though. But this is just the psychologist in me speaking now.

Since we're talking about psychology, perhaps the best parallel is a parent and a rebellious teen. The parent loves their child and wishes for them to come to them, however recognizes the teen (let's say 18) is growing and is going to have to learn how to make important life decisions. He tries to guide, interferring only when necessary and coaches the teen in the right direction. Ultimately, the teen has the choice to listen or leave.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
You're right, I should have said "I'm a prophet!"

I'm glad we've squared that away. Who are you a prophet of?

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
That's true, I don't, but this is what one calls a "conclusion" drawn by your saint4God username, Jesus avatar and general profession to the Christian faith in almost all your posts.

Again assumptions according to what I do and do not believe, know and don't know. This is very tricky territory and there's a high risk of being wrong.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
To be a Christian means acceptance of the OT prophets and Jesus as the son of God. Thus, you must be convinced by prophets, or you would not be a Christian.

I was not convinced by prophets. Reading about them, I see that they're right.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
You do duck these questions and points muchly,

What questions?

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I'll grant you that. Whether you can man up and address some of these niggling little points is probably down to fate. I mean, God.

Am I a man? Again with the assumptions.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
I nearly hemorrhaged my nose off laughing at this statement. The gigglesnort is one of God's uglier curses.

I rather enjoy laughter when in a good spirit, but we're all different.

You won't take what I say on faith, but you'll take the word of an ancient madman who spent too much time up a mountain?

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
Don't give me this "no dice" crap, you take everything on faith,

This is incorrect. Again with the false assumptions.

Originally posted by C.C.Benjamin
so why not just take that next small step? And why not just admit you do take things on faith, aka, your religious outlook?

I do take some things on faith, but not a lot. It is a weakness I have as a skeptic and scientist and am working on it.

[edit on 10-10-2008 by saint4God]

Oh, so sorry. Here I thought for some reason this was a thread about the history of the devil but apparently it is some kind of completely empty religous debate? Perhaps the title should change?

reply to post by MorningStar8741


I think the problem with these kind of topics is that they will always boil down to a debate on ones belief. In this case, if the topic is mere fantasy or actual fact. Its difficult to debate when most of us do not have evidence to support the actual existence of a devil, or even god for that matter.

Good and evil of course can be viewed as subjective; I am of the opinion that there is good and bad. Maybe it is a necessity maybe not, but I am positive that bad things happen which are not necessary, such as war and poverty. Of course, this again is debatable but thats my Utopian opinion, for what its worth.

A question to the religious, do you agree with the documentary that mans interpretation of the devil has changed over the course of time? If so, what would be the reason for this? Is it that the devil has changed or that our understanding has changed?

A question to the non religious, if we forget about religion for a moment, do you believe that there is good and bad in this world? if so what is it that drives such a force? Is it ones ego to seek power over others, maybe in fear of being ruled themselves? Or just plain greed which to me, again is driven by the ego?

If i could change the thread title I would, maybe to something like "What drives good and bad". and apologies if i have run off topic

reply to post by enduser


Nah, don't appologize for it. Enjoy your thread anyway you like. It is not that, it is the way other people feel the need to derail threads with arguments they feel like having regardless of the topic at hand. Not your fault, I was just surprised to read these long long long posts that were way off topic of what I was expecting. I am sure it will be interesting again at some point.

reply to post by saint4God


Well, my prophecy came true. You failed to address one of the points I put forward, but managed to dance around and attempt to make something meaningless sound meaningful.

This dialogue is over.

Originally posted by saint4God

I'd done so before without positive result, so there isn't any incentive for me to do so again. I've found it more beneficial to answer questions as it pertains to others, validate, or describe his character. Personal testimony on this matter tends not to hold water because those who haven't had the experience quickly dismiss this for whatever reason (psychosis, medical, etc.).

Ok, I will bite. Since there is nothing here I thought I would find. I just need to know as well here. Why would you bring it up if you do not want to talk about it? If doing so results negatively, how does just mentioning it without backing it up go for you? I feel I need some clarification on this myself. The thread might as well be about something.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
Why would you bring it up if you do not want to talk about it?

To bring about awareness that yes indeed these things do happen. I can say I was in a surgery without going into the details.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
If doing so results negatively, how does just mentioning it without backing it up go for you?

I have no concern or interest in backing up what I say. I know the people of ATS find validation through their own experiences instead of heresay. Merely stating so that when things do happen, there is no surprise.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
I feel I need some clarification on this myself. The thread might as well be about something.

The thread is on the history of the devil. I've gone into some details about the characteristics of who the devil is an what he wants. These are very important parts of learning about his history. I've been challenged about the things I've said (rightfully so) and have responded to those points whether on topic or not.

[edit on 11-10-2008 by saint4God]

Originally posted by enduser
Hopefully this is in the right place, i apologise if its not.

The history of the devil is a documentary running nearly an hour; starting more than 3000 years ago in the middle east through the ages to recent times, we can see the evolution of mans idea of the devil. Its very interesting to say the least and well worth the watch imo.

The conspiracy angle to me is that the devil (and hell) was and has been used as a means to spread fear of the unknown, so that man conforms to the churches ideals. The greatest evil to me is mans desire to control the masses through fear. Even today the powers that be, the media el al spread fear into our hearts as so we conform to their agendas. Take the war on terror, the evil terrorists attacking us because we have freedom? Of course, god must be glad Bush took lead in killing off the evil by fighting fire with fire, ironic really.

Link to documentary

ps. sorry, ATS for some reason wont show embedded videos.

I really didn't want to address this to any one poster here, but to all. enduser, a special thanks to you for bringing this bit of history to light.


I would have to agree that Satan (separate entity from Lucifer) is not evil. I know, I know, all about the bible, please don't hit me with it anymore I have come to see Satan is a really smart lizard, doing what really smart lizards are suppose to do. Animals have varying levels of the spirit seed, except lizards, snakes, etc. The reptilian life forms are void of the spirit and that is why they can not be held accountable, only spirited beings who have a choice.

Now, I wonder how Noah's Arch fits in with all of this. Amazing how all those people and animals fit on such a large ship, or small, depending on how you look at it. Maybe it wasn't all the animals on earth, maybe it was all the animal\people, of the earth. Interesting though.

reply to post by saint4God


I think you are failing to understand how credibility works. You bring something up but then say you do not want to elaborate because the results in negative responses. When asked how that is working you say you do not care what kind of response you get? Do you not see the problem with that logic? If you do not care how people react then that can NOT be the reason why you would neglect to elaborate.

So now that we established you are one of those that speaks in circles and feigns ignorance of the bits and pieces that contradict preconception...why should anything you have to say about the devil hold any water?

What if I say that I met Jesus once. I am not going to get into it really but he turned out to be a real *&%hole. So if you would like to learn more about him, I would be happy to relate as much as I can.

reply to post by saint4God

I understand completely what you are trying to relate. And, on the other hand, I can completely understand morning stars position as well. All I can say is if you were meant to understand it, you would. Morningstar, if you cant comprehend his message, it may mean you are at your wits end. Sorry

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
I think you are failing to understand how credibility works.

Rather the opposite. Now knowing how credibility works, I'd not introduce anything that is not beneficial towards it. My personal history will not be considered credible, this I know.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
You bring something up but then say you do not want to elaborate because the results in negative responses.

Not because of negative responses, but the lack of positive responses. There is a difference.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
When asked how that is working you say you do not care what kind of response you get?

I do not care what opinions people have on the matter. Opinions do not create reality. I pursue effectiveness.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
Do you not see the problem with that logic? If you do not care how people react then that can NOT be the reason why you would neglect to elaborate.

Again, I do my best to do the things that are beneficial. If it is not beneficial, there is no need. Not sure why this is difficult to understand.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
So now that we established you are one of those that speaks in circles and feigns ignorance of the bits and pieces that contradict preconception...

Be careful with that judgement hammer, you may miss and hit yourself.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
why should anything you have to say about the devil hold any water?

As previously stated, there's no expectation that someone would simply take my word on it. It is however my responsibility to advise through experience the dangers ahead should there be a pursuit towards it.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
What if I say that I met Jesus once.

Certainly I'd ask questions about what it was like and ask if he'd shared any information for us.

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
I am not going to get into it really but he turned out to be a real *&%hole.

You mean like this?

"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?"

I'd like to hear more about it. What happened?

Originally posted by MorningStar8741
So if you would like to learn more about him, I would be happy to relate as much as I can.

Surely, but you just say you were not going to get into it really...so which is it? It didn't take long for the judgement hammer to come full circle upon yourself it seems.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by saint4God]

reply to post by enduser


I will take the time to watch this. I have studied religions and the history of 'hell' and the 'devil'. Kind of funny how it has evolved. Very good talking point but I fear that the extremes from both sides will come in with guns a blaring to try and persuade or dissuade.

Hell was created to scare. Period.

Originally posted by All Seeing Eye
All I can say is if you were meant to understand it, you would.

As a skeptic, to me this wouldn't be good enough. I would seek the answer until I get it. This makes me a person who relies less on faith than proof and am weaker for it, but also accept this is who I am.

Originally posted by dariousg
Hell was created to scare. Period.

I'd like to ask two questions:

1.) By whom was it created?

2.) Does it work?