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Why I Believe We Are Not Alone In The Universe – Intelligent Discussion

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posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:07 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Hi all. Interesting topic.

First, I'd invite everyone to check the title of the topic. It's not:

A. We are not alone in the Solar System;
B. We are not alone in the Universe.

It's I believe we are not alone in the Milky Way Galaxy.

I 'believe' something different, but on topic.

I believe we are isolated in the Galaxy, and we will never meet any other sentient beings; ever.

Consider this post, if you will, as the Devil's Advocate position.

There is probably no better system of quarantine possible than:
1. Immense distances;
2. Hard Radiation;
3. Hard Vacuum;
4. Intense cold;
5. Synchronicity.

Number 5 bears some explanation. Sentient beings are mortal. Even those with exceptional lifetimes, given a time scale of billions of years, are unlikely to be at a technological peak in the same time frame as any other.

In addition, though nature may select for microorganisms, it may not select for intelligence. Majungatholus, a Jurassic carnivorous (meat-eating) dinosaur dominated the landscape in Madagascar for 93 million years. It had a brain the size of your fist. In all that time, it never evolved to acquire intelligence.

Further, technology may be a rare situation. In order to have technology you have to have metals and you have to be able to mine them. That means they have to be near the surface. It may be that the collision that occurred which formed the Moon brought enough metals to the surface of the planet for us to be able to mine them.

So, I believe that not only are we isolated, we, as sentient, technology wielding medium-sized bipeds on a relatively low gravity world with lots of water, powered by a geo-thermal engine, renewed by plate tectonics, weather and climate stabilized by the presence of a large Moon, are extremely rare.

By my estimates, I believe we are the only sentient beings in our Milky Way Galaxy.

Any other sentient beings in any other part of the Universe are not On Topic, and thus do not concern us.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.




posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:11 PM
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Beautiful pictures. So gorgeous.

As far as whether or not we are alone...

I just KNOW we're not. Deep in the pits of my being I know. People talk about how they *think* aliens follow generations of families. I can tell you that my family is one of those.

My father told me the story of when he was about six years old. He woke up to get get a glass of water and he had what I like to call "The Jeff Peckman" experience. The being was looking through the window and it watched him the entire time as he moved back into his bedroom. Since then he's had experiences.

My Mother was stalked by an ET at night when she was sleeping in a chicken coop as a child.

I have various aunts and uncles who have seen UFOs. I have great aunts and uncles who have regualarily had crop circles on their farm properties, as well as wake up to cow mutilations.

I have had experiences since I was about three...nothing I would really every want to talk about because its just pieces here and there...I try not to think about it. They're not positive or really negative, just confusing and scary for the most part.

So is this scientific? Not really. But I know I can't be ignorant and say we're the only "beings" to reside in a universe so vast. I can't even comprehend how much I don't know.

Well I'm done.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:14 PM
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Awesome pictures.Thank you for posting these.I had no idea that astronauts had a vote to pick the best pictures from hubble.I guess they would know.

I am always struck by what Carl Sagan said about how we are "star stuff."This is the main reason why I believe we are not alone.As convoluted as the subject is,with many people coming forward with information being attacked or exposed as hoaxers,no tangible evidence being presented to end all debate on the issue,and the many theories saying that not only are they out there,but they are here or have been here,I still steadfastly believe that the possibility of extraterrestrial life exists.

It is,I believe,a matter of science and probability,mixed with a little hope and faith.People express their belief in this issue using different degrees of these concepts.Science tells us that the elements are there in space,Probability tells us that these elements are likely to exist somewhere else in proportion to support life,hope tells us that one day we will find this place,and faith tells us that we have to keep looking because we will find it.(Or them!)

I believe that when we find what we are looking for,it will be fascinating to see how many of us will react.I do not think it will destroy religion,If they are intelligent and have a belief system different from our own,it will make for some interesting debates and revelations.It may even unify us to work towards making it to the stars in a way we have not done before.I am of the belief that humankinds greatest threat is our precarious place in the universe,so I am all for beating them to the punch to explore space and find them first!Great thread,awesome pictures.Starred and Flagged.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:18 PM
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There are a lot of people who think that because the universe is so incredibly huge there just HAS to be life somewhere else. Unfortunately, that just doesn't make any logical sense. Why would SIZE have anything to do with it?

The thing is, at the moment, we have absolutely no understanding as to how a bunch of chemicals managed to arrange themselves in a very particular configuration to become what we call life, with a point of view and preferences and all that stuff. We just don't.

Of course, a lot of people just assume that if you have water and some other chemicals and you slosh them around long enough or hit them with lightning enough, then life just somehow spontaneously arises out if this soup, and will do it pretty much every time this situation arises.

Unfortunately, there's absolutely zero proof that will happen. I always like to compare it to putting a lot of computer components in a box and then shaking it. Is it reasonable to assume that if I shake it long enough, the pieces will eventually fall into place, screws will turn, plugs will plug such that I could open the box at some time and there will be a complete, working computer? That's hard to imagine. And if you take all of the little atoms and molecules necessary to create even a tiny little living organism, it's even more complicated than the computer example. Hey, you can take a thousand gallons of already assembled DNA and slosh it around, and there's no indication it will spontaneously come alive, either. You need the pieces, you need the machine put together in the right configuration, and you need the spark. And just getting one of those things together is astronomically difficult.

So we have no idea how life came about. Our best biochemical theories are no better proven than Intelligent Design. Which says a lot.

Knowing this, just how would immensity of the universe make other life any more possible? I'll drag out my ball in a box example. Say you have a box with a big red ball in it. You have no idea how it got there. Does it make any logical sense at all then to imagine that if you keep increasing the size of the box there just HAS to be another ball in there somewhere? If you don't know where the first ball came from, where do you think this other ball is going to come from? The same place? Where is that, exactly?

The whole question of life elsewhere in the galaxy is one of those questions that can't be answered by assumption or conjecture. It's going to require some kind of hard data to prove. Ancient bacterial fossils on Mars, a weak radio signal coming from planet around a distant sun, a spectrographic analysis of an alien atmosphere with results that just couldn't happen without living things doing it. Something.

Otherwise, life elsewhere is an interesting notion, and certainly a notion that springs to mind when you see something odd flying around in the sky or creeping around your bedroom at night. But those things may or may not have anything to do with creatures living someplace besides Earth. Rather, it might have something to do with the structure of consciousness and reality itself, and nothing as mundane as smart bugs on another planet.

It could be that life is so statistically improbable, such an incredible fluke, that it just never happened anywhere else but here. That would either make us incredibly precious and unique, or miserable and pointlessly lonely, depending on your perspective.

But that's what makes horse races. You're certainly free to believe whatever you want that makes you feel better about this puzzling existence. You can believe there's a big God floating around there in space, or you can believe there are smart critters out there kind of like us. But in the end, it's just a belief. Same difference. Belief is essentially accepting as true something for which there is no good proof.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:19 PM
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Why do I think we are not alone?

To imagine a galaxy in which only our planet is bathed in experience, is truly depressing.

It is hard enough to realize that the person next to you in traffic will be going home and experiencing a life in which you have no importance unless you steer your car into his.

When I sit and consider the idea, it becomes much more difficult to try and tell myself that there isn't life elsewhere in our little galaxy. I can’t bring myself to deny the life which must be floating out there somewhere in a vast expanse of everything. That is where I draw my 'knowing' from.

But then again, it is incredibly difficult to imagine that there is something; experiencing something; on some planet; orbiting some star; somewhere. Or rather, it isn't very difficult to imagine planets covered in life, but it is difficult to imagine how that life imagines us.

Now the real question for me is: If we are alone in this galaxy, but not in this universe...would we ever know? If we were to explore every cosmic inch of our galaxy and find nothing but rock, gas and ice, would mankind look at earth and declare it the only mother in the universe?

Or would we start to ponder: "I wonder if that galaxy over there has life? I bet it does. I bet it’s alive!"



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:25 PM
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reply to post by Badge01
 


Wonderful post.



Originally posted by Badge01
Consider this post, if you will, as the Devil's Advocate position.

There is probably no better system of quarantine possible than:
1. Immense distances;
2. Hard Radiation;
3. Hard Vacuum;
4. Intense cold;
5. Synchronicity.


Taking your idea, and applying it a bit differently, maybe the real question should be:

If we aren't alone in our galaxy, does it matter? Would we know?

Perhaps there are stars absolutely bussling with life all around us.

In my opinion, due to the reasons in your list, even if life is crowding star systems to their maximum, we, as a species, will most likely die as ignorant as the day we were born.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:36 PM
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I think that its pretty ignorant to believe that we are the only intelligent beings in the universe. Yes the universe is big and for all we know they, I will call them THEY because we dont who they are but THEY..LOL..could be on their way to pay us a visit. I do believe that we are not alone and Im not talking about the possibilty of aliens living at area 51 or whatever but Im talking about a civilization that maybe is observing us and and deciding if we are worthy of a visit. I for one think that we are being monitored and I love this planet and this country even more but we are pretty messed up these days, We are a planet riddled with wars, poverty, graft, corruption(on all levels), and just greedy people and maybe we have failed the test and they have moved on to possibly another civilization. We are not alone though, There is something out there..Way out there.

Another good post Dave..Keep em coming



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:41 PM
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Why do I believe?

If you look closely, or even a little loosely at the world we live in, you will notice that
in most creatures there are similarities that are there. From birds to dolphins, to humans,
most mammals (I'm using mammals for an example) have have a skeletal structure that
is very similar.

If you look at the pictures that the Hubble telescope has taken of the Univers, you will see
similarities there as well, with the millions of Galaxies that are visible in one shot of a
portion of the Universe, most of the galaxies look for the most part, typical.
My theory is that if life takes on a typical look or composition here on earth, and earth
as a planet is typical to all the planets we have been able to see with our telescopes
(not life bearing planets) in the Universe, then maybe life and the composition of life
is typical throughout the Universe, and most likely.

Not to mention the things/craft I have seen myself that defy explanation. I would have
to say that they were certainly not from this planet.


MS



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:47 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

One other thing to consider:

As beautiful as those pictures are, (and they are breathtaking) they are indicative of very turbulent and very 'young' galaxies and stellar objects.

Very turbulent objects or areas, though beautiful, with the highly radioactive gas clouds, are not very conducive to sentient life. That requires areas of low radiation and low turbulence, with a few billion years of stability to allow sentient life to evolve.

Very young stellar objects, where stars are still being formed, are probably devoid of life of any kind - it simply has not had time to evolve. Alternately, it may have been a colonized location, but after the objects went super-nova, life would have been wiped out.

Though it's an interesting question, I think it's important to think things through logically. In that regard, our beliefs are rather less important than what Science tells us.

2 cents.


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by Badge01
Hi all. Interesting topic.

First, I'd invite everyone to check the title of the topic. It's not:

A. We are not alone in the Solar System;
B. We are not alone in the Universe.

It's I believe we are not alone in the Milky Way Galaxy.

I 'believe' something different, but on topic.

I believe we are isolated in the Galaxy, and we will never meet any other sentient beings; ever.

Consider this post, if you will, as the Devil's Advocate position.

There is probably no better system of quarantine possible than:
1. Immense distances;
2. Hard Radiation;
3. Hard Vacuum;
4. Intense cold;
5. Synchronicity.

Number 5 bears some explanation. Sentient beings are mortal. Even those with exceptional lifetimes, given a time scale of billions of years, are unlikely to be at a technological peak in the same time frame as any other.

In addition, though nature may select for microorganisms, it may not select for intelligence. Majungatholus, a Jurassic carnivorous (meat-eating) dinosaur dominated the landscape in Madagascar for 93 million years. It had a brain the size of your fist. In all that time, it never evolved to acquire intelligence.

Further, technology may be a rare situation. In order to have technology you have to have metals and you have to be able to mine them. That means they have to be near the surface. It may be that the collision that occurred which formed the Moon brought enough metals to the surface of the planet for us to be able to mine them.

So, I believe that not only are we isolated, we, as sentient, technology wielding medium-sized bipeds on a relatively low gravity world with lots of water, powered by a geo-thermal engine, renewed by plate tectonics, weather and climate stabilized by the presence of a large Moon, are extremely rare.

By my estimates, I believe we are the only sentient beings in our Milky Way Galaxy.

Any other sentient beings in any other part of the Universe are not On Topic, and thus do not concern us.


I dont mean to blow holes in all that you said but ......."In order to have technology you have to have metals and you have to be able to mine them"

And i dont mean to sound ignorant but i probley do
but fire is not made of metal right..........but it is technology.

We could not even comprehend what technology could be "out there" only imagine.

And as for you saying we are rere your right but there are billions of life forms here on earth. you would have (not direcited at you personly) to have your head so far up your worm hole to think other wise shurley?

All that croc about earth being unique because of where it is in the galxy,becuase of the moons distance from earth, because it spins at exactly whatever speed it spins etc.

Im not into it, the odds are way to high for earth to be alone in this universe



*click post before you lose your balls



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:57 PM
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Originally posted by Badge01

So, I believe that not only are we isolated, we, as sentient, technology wielding medium-sized bipeds on a relatively low gravity world with lots of water, powered by a geo-thermal engine, renewed by plate tectonics, weather and climate stabilized by the presence of a large Moon, are extremely rare.



The number of stars in the Milky Way galaxy is estimated to be about 100 billion. There are plenty more planets than that. If only half of one percent of the planets are suitable for our type of life, there would be millions of potential planets. (remember, that's just in our galaxy)

If you give an infinite number of monkeys infinite time and typewriters, eventually they will write Shakespeare.

There may not be an infinite quantity of other lifeforms out there, but there are most definitely plenty enough to "write Shakespeare" (Shakespeare being a faster than light propulsion system that has the potential to reach Earth).

Just my take.



[edit on 10/5/2008 by iceofspades]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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Interesting post by Nohup, if or when we crack abiogenesis, that will give is a lot better idea of how probable life arising is, if it turns out to be an almost inevitable sequence of events given the right environment then surely the milky way teems with life. Looking at the history of Earth it seems to say, as far as I understand it, that life arose here pretty quicky after the planet cooled enough to provide adiquate conditions, once here, life sure is resilient. However, the conditions amenable to complex life on Earth are but a fraction of this planets lifespan, maybe about a twelfth of the time earth will exist, we are at the mercy of the sun and it's store of hydrogen, life will die here sooner rather than later. Maybe the galaxy teems with life over time, appearing here and there only to be innevitably snuffed out so that at any given instant biospheres of the complexity of this one are rare. Fossils may be more abundant than life. Given this I have read a great deal about the UFO phenomenon, for the ET hypothesis and against.
The arguments against seem at times a little weak to me. One example often quoted is Fermi's Paradox: If aliens exist, where are they? To me this rhetorical question seems hardly a logical argument, more just a form of Geocentricism, one suspects that he meant, but did not say, that if they where here they would undoubtedly be speaking to him. Rather ego smashing for him and to give him his due, all of us if they are here and choose not to communicate. Then again who could blame them, what would they have to gain?
Oh and someone has to mention SETI.
I've got to say how sorry I feel for Seth Shostak, he must be as sick of people badgering him about UFO's as Richard Dawkins is of fending off aggressive creationists, or 'the yapping terriers of unreason' as Professor Dawkins rightly calls them. Seth, I think has to rubbish UFO's, his job could depend on it, Seti is privately funded but for how long if he gains a reputation for what the scientific community call 'woo.' I don't feel sorry for Jill Tartar though, she mistook the moon for a UFO...calls herself an astronomer he, she did say this though: Clicky www.21stcenturyradio.com...


[edit on 5-10-2008 by tonyJ]

[edit on 5-10-2008 by tonyJ]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 08:03 PM
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Excellent thread, the pictures are absolutely brilliant. I have always believed that we could not possibly be the only living beings in the universe. There are just way too many possibilities. I had hoped to see adequate space travel in my time but I suppose that is not going to happen. Perhaps my great-great grandchildren will get to travel to another planet someday. We can only hope.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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I don't know what is more amazing, the pictures you posted or the delusional mind set of a few posts on this thread..



I know, no flaming...

Life in any form seems amazing, and even more amazing IMO are the remarkable circumstances required to initiate the process...the drake equation has its problems as do many theories on the issue; but this is not something you can easily quantify, as we only have soft data for many of the variables utilized to 'guestimate' the possibility of life in the universe....

I believe that these circustances have occurred and continue to do so considering the sheer number of planets within galaxies, and galaxies within the universe...

The 'math' seems to favor the idea that life must have evolved on other planets in galaxies far, far away...



Great thread man...


grammar edit

[edit on 10/5/2008 by chapter29]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 08:06 PM
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reply to post by Badge01
 


I dont mean to jump in and sound like an ar'tard But

"Very young stellar objects, where stars are still being formed, are probably devoid of life of any kind - it simply has not had time to evolve. Alternately, it may have been a colonized location, but after the objects went super-nova, life would have been wiped out."

Do you not see that stars are life ,that the universe is liveing? to say they are devoid of life is obtuse'............how can something evolve if it is not liveing?


I go along with the everything is everything theroy.

No Debating Please - Only Your Thoughts... Thanks.

Dave


[edit on 10/5/2008 by Dave Rabbit]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 08:24 PM
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What? Intelligent Conversation with DAVE RABBIT? That for me is harder to believe than life outside of Earth. Just kidding Dave.

I share the same view as many of you. The universe is far too vast for us to be the only ones. We dont even have the capability to investigate the regions outside of our own galaxy! We haven't even been farther than our own moon.
Plus, there are far too many things that have been seen in our own skies that are unknown, although some of them may be man-made.

Even astronauts, people who actually have been to and know about space, say they have seen things that they cant explain.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 08:29 PM
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The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.



Great post Dave!! Those are really great pics. Thanks for putting this together.



As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 08:31 PM
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reply to post by N.B.A.Y.S.O.H
 


Stellar evolution is completely different from biological evolutionary processes.
Stars 'grow' in stellar 'nurseries' then evolve or change thoughout their 'lives.' These terms are labels for the process, they are still just giant nuclear fusion reactors. A big chemical reaction.
The internal combustion engine could be said to have 'evolved' since its invention but does that mean your car is alive?
Engineers today use computer programs based on the mechanisms of biological evolution to design suspension bridges, among other things, within the program the bridge 'evolves' it's still just a bridge though.



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 08:44 PM
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my thoughts on the question, "is there other life outthere?"

i had a sighting back in roughly 2005/6. it seems like a age ago now, but it certainly convinced me there is other life we have no understanding of. im not sure if they are aliens though. it was simply a star during the daytime, a ball of light moving strangly and dancing around the sky, which then took of at speeds that confirmed i was seeing something not known to the public openly or at all.

there is life out there no doubt, and i believe we could well be being observed. but i don't know if that is the case and i don't have the answers.

i do think people like to believe this more because they see the way life is on earth and aspire to want more and think "theres got to be more than this surely, this sucks"

so they put a lot of faith in hoping for something better, and because we cannot find it here we look outthere.

untill u.f.o's have a definate explaination, what they are and where they come from, it is certainly possible they could be observers, but i do think we place a lot of faith in that due to our wanting of a better life.

i tend to think an other possibility is these things could also be creatures living high above the earth, lifeforms we have yet to discover or understand.

but inteligent life is outhere certainly, visiting earth? i don't know.
saving humanity? certainly not. is something worth saving that cannot save itself? why would another race intervene the learning process? we cannot be saved untill we learn how to save ourselves, so i would not expect any mass landings anytime soon. we might like to think of them as 'better' than us, or more inteligent than us, but in our current state we will certainly be looked on as a danger to them.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by lifeform]



posted on Oct, 5 2008 @ 08:54 PM
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My little boy told me that babies are made when stardust falls down into mommies' bellies.

That is enough for me.



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