Why I Believe We Are Not Alone In The Universe – Intelligent Discussion

reply to post by Badge01


Badge....I know GBOTG....not sure where the 'W' comes in...is it for 'wise'?? Ah, I think that must be it.

For all who are now scratching their heads....Gene Roddenberry, the iconic creator of the 'Star Trek' franchise (who, among other previous careers was a Police Officer and Airline Pilot) eventually settled down into writing for Hollywood, TV mostly.

Mr. Roddenberry was dubbed 'The Great Bird of the Galaxy'....way back in the 1960s, as either an admiration of his work in creating Star Trek, or as a subtle, grudging acknowledgment that HE was the boss....who knows?

I'm not a rabid fan of Star Trek (well I kinda sorta am....but only for Hallowe'en)....no, actually I am a fan, ever since the 1960s. I only have about two crates full of Star Trek memorabilia.

Gene Roddenberry was a strong believer in the possibilities of other intelligent life, not only in the Universe, but right here in our virtual backyard, our own Galaxy.

There is something, and forgive me if I get this wrong, called the 'Maxwell' equation (?) May have the name wrong, but essentially it uses mathematics to calculate the possiblities of intelligent life JUST in our own Galaxy.

This method supposes, just for the sake of argument, that out of several hundred BILLION stars just ten percent are suitable for life to evolve. Then, from that ten percent, it narrows down again to some...well, let's say ten percent, just to be critical...of INTELLIGENT life to evolve. Now, it gets interesting....of these intelligent species, how many go on to develop civilizations and technology...how many survive? (I'm paraphrasing here, these are actually my own personal views).

I will digress, for a moment. The fairly well accepted 'age' of the Universe is about 13 Billion years....give or take a few million. But, remember, please, that a "year" is unique to humans, and our concept. A species that, say, evolved on Mars (to use an example) would know a 'year' quite differently....it would be almost twice as long as our "Earth" year.

Staying on this rant....(please stay with me as you try to wrap your minds around this concept) ... Einstein showed us that motion, and time are intertwined.

Meaning, in the 'early' Universe, as it was 'expanding', time might have been irrelevant. 'Time' as we know it, anyways.

Our POV (Point of View) based on what we know, from science, and Doppler and Hubble....we can infer the expansion of the Universe, then think backwards to imagine a theoritical "beginning".

(still ranting....I promise to bring this around...)

The point is....we use what is familiar to us, in order to attempt to make sense of what we have trouble comprehending. We ALL know what a day is....or, ost ouf us do, unless you live in Alaska or the Antarctic (didn't want to be accused of pandering for political reasons....anyone who has had Geography 101 should know, by now, that a 'day' will vary, depending on where you are on the Globe)

This 'rant' of mine began with a very simple premise...Badge started it, and kicked it to me (In my own mind, I caught the 'ball' and ran with it).

I hope I didn't open up Mr. Roddenberry to ridicule. I think his moniker as the 'Great Bird' was mostly hearfelt. I think his wife, Majel Barret, would agree.

Over forty years on, and Mr. Roddenberry's creation has been tossed to others, after his death, to carry on. AND they have done very well! But, let's not forget the initial spark, the genius of the man....Gene Roddenberry... there is always an underlying theme....of hope. To aspire to something better, to work out petty differences....this is his legacy.

Oh! I forgot, we were discussing whether we're alone in the Universe....

I've ranted, and gone astray....I need a better editor!

Summation: Life in the Universe? Absolutely plausible. Ability to meet them, given current technolgy? Unlikely. Hope??? Eternal.

reply to post by weedwhacker





[edit on 12/10/2008 by Badge01]

Originally posted by Dave Rabbit
NO FLAME ZONE

This is NOT A DEBATE – Just Your THOUGHTS & OPINIONS Please!


Yeah, after seeing the UFO sighting over Dallas in the early 1950’s, I’m a believer. I may not buy everything that I hear from others mind you, but I do have an open mind and do not criticize, regardless of how out there a few of their stories may be. This is why I want to hear what the membership believes.


This is NOT A DEBATE – Just Your THOUGHTS & OPINIONS Please!

NO FLAME ZONE


[edit on 10/7/2008 by Dave Rabbit]

badge01 - I appreciate the information you have been providing however I was not aware that there were right or wrong answers on this thread.

The Bunny Man was asking for input.

Technically I CAN apply odds to the question of whether we are alone or not.

The posed mathematical equation is merely a theory...pure speculation. Take it to its simplest terms: it's a crap shoot when LOOKING for life out there...be it with telescopes, radio waves etc etc etc.

The conditions for life are not that specific, certainly not specific to what we know and deem as "life".

As for sentient beings in the universe besides us it can be deemed a an odd or a probability, in fact it has to be as we have no conclusive data in which to make any other kind of determination. It's a guess pure and simple.

Odds, speculation, probability, guesstimate...whatever the term people are comfortable using.

The thread is to find out who believes and why, not to poo poo their terminology or to suppose they are less enlightened or educated in that belief and method of describing it.

Keep on with the great info

Odds are good that we are not alone. This is what I believe.

[edit on 12/10/2008 by Badge01]

reply to post by justgeneric

I too have seen UFO'S----- once in Waco TX in 1956 eary '57 ---

reply to post by Badge01


The "Drake" equation!!!!

I'd invite any mathemeticians, or probability experts in the viewuing audience to dispute this logic. From 'Drake', I mean.

Irrespective....the questrion is "Are We Alone In The Univese"????

As I believe I have pointed out, the Universe is a very big place. So let's focus on just our own Galaxy.

It gets complicated, on Human timescales.....but here is the gist! OUR Galaxy is at LEAST a third generation, maybe even a FOURTH generation example of what happens when you have hydrogen fuse into helium....and you let this continue well beyond Human knowledge, or experience....and more and more 'elements' are formed.....BECAUSE of the fusion, in the heart, or the 'interior' of the stars.....AND these early stars EXPLODE! (No Humans yet, don't worry) and these explosions create more and more 'elements'....I but the word "elements" in quotes....but you must understand, these fundamental building blocks of our chemistry is the reason we are sitting here, right now, typing on your computer keyboard, and thinking, and acting as a Human Being.

EDIT....I made typos....instead of fixing them, care to find them??? What a fun challenge!!!




[edit on 10/12/0808 by weedwhacker]

reply to post by Dave Rabbit


Ok. Just my thoughts. It would be ignorant of me to think we are the only life in such a vast, and ever expanding universe.

The trouble i have is one of inner conflict with myself. I'm torn between thinking there is, much more advanced life. Life that is so advanced it would need no body nore any planet to live on but just be.

On the other hand i think what if we truly were just a massive mistake and not even ment to exist. How sad that would be. All alone in an ever expanding universe void of other life except us. joedoe1982uk

Drake Equation Thanks!! I had forgotten the name of the mathematical theory.

Badge - no harm you're very passionate and I admire that...reading through your posts, you've provided awesome ideas and more than a few points to ponder.

For me though - it is mostly speculation and yes a bit of a gamble. Don't win if you don't play as the old saying goes

Cheers!!

Why would there be more life out here?

We got no idea how we got here to be honest.

i find it extremely by our science standard's life could exist other place's.

the place would have to be exact same distance from our sun.
The place would have to have every known element we do for the planet to create life.
that would be quadtrillions to 1 odd's at least lol

But then again what is life?
as in how exact was life on our planet made or started from.
and the truth is we do not know for sure.

Hi There,

I've just come across the thread, and would like to make a few comments. Along with many posters I too believe we are not alone in the universe. I believe that planets act as the incubators for the generation of life forms, but that out of the diversity of all manner of life forms appearing upon any particular planet, only one species in the planet's entire history will ever make it to outer-space. Only one will ever gain the ability to reach out to the stars.

Of course, this attainment to outer-space will be determined by many factors natural, physical, mental, spiritual, and social. Any one or combination of these factors could (and probably do) cause the failure of a species to progress beyond its own planet, yet they are also the very factors that aid the species to successful out-reach beyond its home.

The two most prevalent obstacles to a specie's success are natural extinction events, and of course...itself. I fully believe that as a species - and one holding massive potential - mankind is evolving away from its animalistic origin towards becoming a true humanitarian entity. Sadly, the process is harsh and brutal. We seem to be erring towards failure because we are unable (currently) to heal the fractures of cultural and social differences that have been the cause of so much suffering and devastation. We are also aware that our planet, our home, has a finite life span. It only has so much resources that we are using up as if they have no end...reaching out to the stars is our mandatory destiny if we are to continue in existence.

Those species who have made a successful transition from planet-bound entities to planet-hopping entities have (I suspect) undergone a similar process. They have managed to stave off self-annihilation, and have successfully worked through their primative origins and instincts, by developing a spiritual ethic (non-religious) that allowed them to close the valves on self-annihilating tendencies, and to heal social fractures. This will have enabled them to use all their creative intelligence towards benign science, free from superstitions and supernatural fears. They will have, in effect, gained a balance between their physical, mental, and spiritual awarenesses. Without achieving this, no species on any planet will ever leave the ground of its origin, for it will doom itself to its own imbalances.

Are we being visited by such successfully transitioned species? I cannot say for sure, I'm still on the fence. It would be both a comfort and perhaps even, a little disconcerting to finally have it proved beyond all doubt that we are...especially at our current level of development. I would fear the reaction of those unable to assimilate the knowledge and the experience into the narrow framework of their lives. I just don't think that mankind as a whole is ready to meet off-planetary species just yet...we have a lot of work and development to do upon ourselves before contact can transpire, and I should think that any off-planetary species awaiting to make contact with us would know this. I think our problem is that our technological prowess is not equally matched by our moral and ethical empathy. I do not deny that many of us are probably ready now, but contact would be for all of mankind, not just for those whom could accept it now.

Earth is our beautiful blue home. It has sustained us throughout our troubled and violent history, and it will continue to do so...yet, the real worrying question is, will we develop beyond our primitive animalistic urges and instincts, full of superstitions and fears, or will we allow them to get the better of us, and steer us to a doom of failure? Our growth upon this planet is but a mere step, the greater voyage lies before us, out there in the constellations of the universe, for that equally is our home.

Best wishes

As far as how many planets are out there that have developed advanced forms of life beyond single cel, it is my opinion that essentially every star approximately the size and power of our sun probably has at least one planet that has develop life at a higher level. The solar systems revolving around the outer edge of our galaxy are probably teeming with life. In interstellar terms, most of these solar systems probably developed at about the same time, but that could mean within a few million years of each other, so the evolution of life in these systems probably varies considerably. In addition, the rate at which life developed on these other planets probably developed at different rates, which means I think it is highly likely that we have some neighbors who are more advanced than we are, how advanced is the question.

Why do I believe this? Mainly because of the conformity of our solar system. We have four small planets revolving close into our sun, separated by a asteroid belt, and then four large planets outside of that belt, followed by another belt of much larger asteroids, or small planet sized bodies. All of these planets revolve around our sun virtually in a single plane. It is more reasonable to believe that this very conformist existance of our solar system did not happen by accident, and it is therefore reasonable to believe that the other solar systems around the outer edge of our galaxy evolved in essentially the same way. It is also more reasonable to believe that the materials that formed these solar systems revolving around the outer edge of our solar system are also pretty much the same, in much the same way that a centifuge separates materials, it is more likely that the formation of our galaxy worked similary conforming with physics.

Whether or not it is possible for ships to travel at the speed of light or faster, or to find worm holes through space that allow large distances to be travelled quickly is a question that I don't think we have an anwer to. Once again I point to the vast amount of evidence in the historical record that seems to indicate we have had visitors from outer space visit us throughout our past. Whether or not people choose to believe this evidence is their choice, but the evidence is there. If light speed travel is possible, we have several systems that could be reached easily within a lifetime, with a return flight.

I don't think we will exhaust our planets resources. While the third world's population has continued to accelerate, first world nations have seen their populations stabilize, and many are starting to see drops in population. I think is quite possible that eventually all nations will reach a first world status as we know today, and go through similar population stabilizaton. Our planet still has massive amounts of resources, and with technological improvements, there is no reason to believe that we won't be able to start using those resources in a way that is not too harsh on our environment.

It all depends on whether we can learn to live in peace.

Here's an important point for those who say we don't like the odds for alien life. The very existence of life on earth points to it's existence in innumerable places on other planets. Because life is hard to get going but seems to be tenacious when it does.
The only reason we think alien life is so rare is we are too used to thinking of earth in a certain way i.e. that we are isolated in the vast space around us. We can't see very far into space or time so we have this limited bubble much like a fish in a pond. That is just our conceptual thinking getting in the way. Because we don't have the technology yet to extend our lifespan or the technology yet to travel close to or surpass the speed of light we are stuck in this mode of thinking. It seems to me much more likely that earth is an integral part of the ecosystem around it (the milky way). It travels at very rapid speeds through space and does a complete orbit of the Milky Way every 220 million years. In fact all the molecules that we are composed of are probably from a third generation solar system (i.e 2 or 3 solar systems probably existed before ours came along). We are constantly being bombarded by micrometeorites and comets from local sources and the far reaches of the galaxy. There is a whole of mixing going on and we are part of it, why would life start here, it's as ridiculous as saying the plant you see in your garden sprung into life there all by itself.

[edit on 14-10-2008 by ManInAsia]

reply to post by ManInAsia


I had to respond to 'ManInAsia' to commend this person for a very well-said post.

Not sure if I jumped on the 'band-wagon' too soon....haven't reviewed my earlier posts on this topic....so forgive me if I've ranted about this before!

I took the time to re-read the title. The title "Why I Believe We Are Not Alone In The Universe"....rings true, to my mind.

However, we should all take a deep breath and realize exactly what we are referring to, when we say 'The Universe'.

I'll draw us down, just to our planet, the one we know and love.

How to define 'sentience'?? Look around at Nature, on Earth. Yes, you have the benefit of looking around, and contemplating, and planning, and deciding what to wear to work tomorrow, what you might buy at the grocery store for the next week, whether the kids have enough milk for their cereal in the morning.....

OK! See, that was an 'example' of Human 'sentience'. Or, was it?????

Who is to say that our petty, daily thoughts are sentience? Any better than, say, whatever petty thoughts a Chimpanzee might contrive, if he or she is capable of thinking ahead, in order to survive?

Who is to say which is better? "Survival of the fittest"? Well, then the Tiger beats the Gazelle....(or, choose your anology).

OK, I set this up to make a point....to my mind, 'sentience' implies an understanding of one's limited lifespan. I know, that sounds harsh, but it's really that simple, in its basics. 'Sentience' also implies a sense of compassion....beyond pure 'survival'. I guess I have to pull out the "E" card....emotions. Because, an emotion is quite possibly a requirement for sentience. And, compassion is a form of emotion.

An increased leisure to contemplate....with a full belly, and fully socially satisfying surroundings, might allow an organism to develop these thoughts, given enough time and comfortable circumstances.

But, I have only given a few contemplative scenarios on our familiar Earth....

I will now address the original topic....about being 'alone' in the Universe.

Hard enough for me to wrap my head around the speed of light, when I first learned of it....42 years ago. I began to study more....and learned that our planet Earth exists in the 'suburbs' of one of the Spiral Arms of a 'Spiral Galaxy'....of a Galaxy esitimated to be about 100,000 Light Years in diameter, and maybe about 30,000 Light Years Thick.

(Of coursem it's a bit like standing on the beach and guessing you can see Russia....sorry, couldn't resist....poor analogy.....)

Point is....the the term 'Universe' tends to be bandied around, in my opinion, a little to loosely.

See, we currently reside in a Galaxy...a VERY LARGE structure, which is composed of hundreds of billions of Stars.

Our 'Universe' consists of Hundreds of Billions of other Galaxies...each of THOSE galaxies likely consist of several hundred billiion stars, as well. BUT, they are a very, very, very long way away....even in our own Galaxy, the nearest Star System is over Four Years away....and that's assuming we could travel at the speed of light, a technology currently unattainable, as far as we know.

Now, here is a concept critical to our understanding: Stars are giant nuclear furnaces. Really big ones, explode!!!! This happened a lot, many billions of 'years' ago....long time before the earth was ever formed. These big 'explosions' of those early Stars helped to produce what we now call 'elements'....because it was the intense heat and pressures that formed those new elements....so we owe our current existence to these early 'Stars'....that exploded, and melded atoms into the current elemtents that we know....and this all happened for Billions of years, by how we measure things, before we ever existed.

I will, now again, just focus on our OWN Galaxy, what we call the Milky Way (hint: Gets its name just because we sit out in the 'suburbs'....and we dimly view the main 'body' of our Galaxy, from our vantag point).

It would be like living in the suburbs of LA, and seeing the lights of the city revealed....on a clear night.

My rant was simply to hopefully provide a perspective....as to why the term 'Universe' might have not been appropriate.....'Galaxy' is far more accurate. Unless someone wishes to imply that InterGalactic travel is possible....

(Nearest Galaxy to ours is Andromeda....approximately 2 million Light Years.....((fun fact....we might collide with Andromeda, but not for about 6 million years, or more....))

reply to post by Badge01


Probability of 'life' of any kind in the Solar System - 90% (Seas of Europa)
Probability of 'life' of any kind in the Galaxy - virtually certain. (microorganisms, etc.)
Probability of Sentient life in the Galaxy - I think it's on the order of one per ten Galaxies
Probability of any Type II civilizations in the Universe - Low
Probability of any Type III civilizations in the Universe - Zero.

Mostly I would be in agreement, it's the very low odds you give of sentient life I just don't get. Why? Because sentient life would breed sentient life.
It's what's happened on earth, we've had animal life now for 550 million years or so.

Check the wikipedia link for a handy Timeline of Evolution

Notice how quickly microbial life got started (4 billion years), at least within 600 million years of a solid crust appearing, however eukaryotic life (multi-cellular) took a long time to get going (2 billion years). Notice how the Wikipedia poster assumes life formed in the early RNA world on earth. I think that is a big jump to make, would not a smaller jump to make be that life simply came here from somewhere else?
Sentient life in the form of animals came along after a long evolutionary history at 550 million years ago. It took a few billion years but we got there. Once animals evolved the process of speciation of animal forms accelerated. The actual development of sentient beings (as previous poster mentioned) can be debated. It could be argued that there are many sentient beings on earth but just one technologically advanced species with advanced language capabilities.
Now we can see that in a very short time (30-100 years) AI capabilities will be beyond what we can do. Basically intelligence will spawn intelligence. In the same way that is seems to be difficult for life to get started, intelligence seems to be difficult to get started. But once it does it will probably spawn many 'new species', perhaps biological or machine based. These beings, in the search for new territories and conflicts for resources and competition, will inevitably expand into the ecosystem around them, namely the Milky Way galaxy. Sure some will killed off in gamma ray bursts, genocidal conflicts etc., but due to their 'intelligence' it will be hard to wipe them out completely once they have capability to rove the galaxy. They will move out from the planet much as they moved from one pond to another or one mountain range to another in the search for new territory and more resources. The theory of evolution predicts this in the Milky Way just as it does on earth. Some intelligent life forms may spread life with them deliberately or accidently. Even if intelligent life did get wiped out in the local area the lower life forms (e.g. bacteria) would be almost impossible to wipe out and perhaps start the evolutionary cycle once more. I think the actual picture is pretty complicated in our galaxy, a mixture or rare events (life spontaneously appearing) and life spawning events (microbial life drifting onto suitable planets) and intelligent life actively visiting (colonising, observing, accidental life transmission through associated life forms).
NOTE: these theories don't take into account faster than light travel and time travel which could alter things. Still, looking at our fossil record and DNA trees, it currently does look more likely that life evolved (was left to evolve) on it's own accord over billions of years.


[edit on 15-10-2008 by ManInAsia]

[edit on 15-10-2008 by ManInAsia]

[edit on 15-10-2008 by ManInAsia]

[edit on 15-10-2008 by ManInAsia]

reply to post by ManInAsia


I think there is an anthropomorphical aspect to these ideas, especially as relates to so-called 'Type I, Type II and Type III' civilizations concept.

(By that standard we'd still be classed as a 'Type Zero'...or maybe 'Type I sub-prime')

We have a generation of people (well, two generations, actually....I fall into the age category that is known as the 'baby boomers'...) who have grown up being exposed to popular science fiction entertainment. Started as far back as 'Buck Rogers', as hokey as it was. Continued with bad "B" movies of space monsters....there was always a common theme, though: US, the little guys, winning against an overwhelming force. (Think of Godzilla).

Then, the brilliant 'Forbidden Planet', in I believe 1956. It's been said that that movie inspired Gene Roddenberry to create 'Star Trek'.

Sorry, I began to ramble...the idea of the 'Type I' and 'Type II' civilizations having contact with each other is the root question. It's all about the differing levels of technology (a common tenet of Star Trek) between varied cultures, and what it means to wield the 'greater' tech. Do you share? Or conquer?

When I wrote 'anthropomorphical' (gee, hope it's the correct word) I meant that we Humans write our space adventure fiction in an attempt to entertain, and it is profit-based, of course. However, for the benefit of the audience, it has to be somehow relevant to their understanding....so in the 'Star Trek' universe, virtually all of the space-faring species are at about the same tech level...this makes for good stories.

Problem is, when you actually consider the possible tremendous diversity around our Galaxy (and Universe) you can begin to realize that not every species will develop at the same rate. Just look at the difference a mere 1000 years makes right here on Earth!

So, it seems impossible to imagine a level playing field...one can only hope that a Species that survives to 'Type I' and further survives to 'Type II', or beyond, will have also learned the wisdom and compassion....dare I say it? Spirituality, to not abuse their greater 'powers' over others.

This just in:

Alternative life form

When we are talking about life in general, it is wise to not get the "they have to be like us to be intelligent" mindset.

Also it is important to remember that in assuming whether the universe started as a bang or bounce, all part(icle)s are entangled with their matches somewhere in time and space.

B1, I am already familiar with your "Type" civilizations, and III is your "sky beyond the sky", the numenal world as opposed to our familiar phenomenal world. Just because it looks like a random mess out there doesn't mean that is what it is. Everything functions like a perfectly tuned mechanism according to the dictate of a master pattern.

Who knows, with their great brains, blue whales may be tuned in to some galaxtic internet that we have no clue about, ala Startreks best movie, shades of a Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.

We can't even confirm that we are the most intelligent species on Earth, only the ones with the obviously more advanced weapons of mass destruction.

reply to post by poet1b


Until the Dolphins go away and say "So Long and Thanks For All the Fish" I think we may be safe. But I don't rule out that we are being observed and looked upon in as in Star Trek the Next Generation movie Insurrection. Or it could be that they are ingrained in our life and we just can't see them unless we have special sunglasses like in They Live.

reply to post by bigvig316


Great movie references.

Which begs the question, who among us would you pick as most likely to be an alien?

I don't have an answer myself, I will have to think about it.