So... Who's Going to Join the Zeitgeist Movement??

Originally posted by ThePetrus
reply to post by zman

 

i also think you are quite mad about the starter of the thread having some responsibility over the movement....

[edit on 15-10-2008 by ThePetrus]

Why not all all, I think she did well. What I am in a disagreement with is the posters who do not even do there home work and do not DENY ingnorance. Apartently you have no responce on the Venus Projects deciet and you are attacking me on my Character. I like everyone, and I try to help as many as I can. Do you try to help others?.


[edit on 10/15/2008 by zman]

reply to post by zman


It seems to me Zman that the hardest part to digest of zeitgeist is the first one about the Christ. What can you say about that?

Originally posted by ThePetrus
reply to post by zman

 

It seems to me Zman that the hardest part to digest of zeitgeist is the first one about the Christ. What can you say about that?

What does the homelessman in the car barter with?. And how does he get online?. You have not asked that question. OK, now you bring up Christ name. What is with you. If you can not defend the Project then you bring personel attacks upon me?. Sorry that you feel the way you do. You need to understand that I am only trying to help people understand that they have NO working model, and it is a scam. Tell the homeless man in the car with his family that you have an answer like barter and he tell you that it is feasably impossible to feed his family, keep gas in the car for heat, to barter anything, what that fellow needs is employment to get the things, or needs to get funds (money) to fund there hunger. You are here while he is there, what a scam, I do not see any of you helping those who need help. Show me where they are helping them. They are not, they are all words and a lack of any type of action to help them. When one wants to start a Revolution, he or they need to start at the bottom and work there way up. Here they start with an utopian idea with well educated properly employed with income. Who is going to help those who can not help themselves. Certainly not the Venus Project. Now you bring up religion, and it does seem like they give willingly to poor people by providing food, shelter, and clothing, what does the Venus Sytem provide for them?. Nothing. Ok , now I a relation to a saint, given that data (information) you can see that I can not denigh the christ. But thats not the point, and its not why I disagree with the Venus project, I have laid out why I disagree with the project, and yet you have proven again that you can not provide viable answers to my questions.

[edit on 10/15/2008 by zman]

reply to post by zman


I like your being passionate Zman, dont misunderstand me. You point out the problem of the homeless and the poor and its something that touch every sensible man in this world. I think that what the work here is about is finding a solution to these kind of problems and as you can read people is opening their souls for this, some are also operative, as you are doing, if you consider those who read and dont want to write. I think that the solution is inside ourselves, its still hidden but coming out. I dont blame anger, some does, but to me it can be turned into something positive as a passionate speech as yours and its a great valuable tool.

About the Venus Project, as i said before, I think that at first the zeitgeist is a movement of people coming to a greater understandment of their inner selves and, due to this, of the outer world. Only then it gets to the building of the project, and as far as I have seen in my life the best projects are those where the involved ones partecipated and evolved it to better shape. Theres no working method you say, you are right only if you tried to create a method and nothing happened.

Take care.

Originally posted by ThePetrus
reply to post by zman

 

About the Venus Project, as i said before, I think that at first the zeitgeist is a movement of people coming to a greater understandment of their inner selves and, due to this, of the outer world. Only then it gets to the building of the project, and as far as I have seen in my life the best projects are those where the involved ones partecipated and evolved it to better shape. Theres no working method you say, you are right only if you tried to create a method and nothing happened.

Take care.

I understand, I have read many religous text, allot of history and understand allot of what cultures where trying to accomplish. I have trained missonaries to there specfic areas of the world. I understand that homelessness comes most of the time from illness. Either they get sick and no longer can provide or get to many bills they can not pay. Either way allot is by a system that has no symphony towards the betterment of the fellow man. Now, from what we had/have here in the USA its more of a freedom of ideas, invention, and your mind to explore things that other countries can not. Now mind you the money system WAS at one time a very acceptable way to do business. Now its become a debt sociaty. Since 1913/1933 changes in the way our money is supplied and delt with are in contrast to what the original founding fathers wanted. Now if that could be put back into place and industries with more regulations on them and our taxes placed on imports to cover the expenses of government. These where what worked so well. But special interest and the desire for AMerica to be controlled by the PTB have created this problem. This has created this web site mind you. Trying to figure out whats what with all the secrets of The PTB. Then it comes to the religous practices of those who are in the PTB. Research and reading countless volumes of fact and cultures have seem to me that people are basically not helping others like we, but harming them and making themselves larger than the other who is his neighbor. Freely I give what I have, as freely I recieve. So knowledge of cultures and history have made me basically look into every possible way of life to obtain utopia, and the Venus Project does not even have valid answers to the sick and the poor who are among you or even you yourself. So while an Idea is just and idea, and no project works without proving itself, then how can one join something that has no substance and place to see.

reply to post by zman


Ok Zman,

First thing you have to bear in mind is that the venus project is NOT being forced down the throats of the people in the Zeitgeist Movement. It is just ONE POSSIBLE alternative to what we have. The Venus Project is just one of any possible extrapolation that we might attain in hundreds of years.

Next, You seem to like switching back and forth here. In the Resource-based society, there is no money and just by virtue of eliminating debt and money, there are no poor so everyone is free to participate. Next, it is about love and trust. Love is something that we need to fully embrace before we even consider any dreams of utopian grandeur. The idea is to develop the ENTIRE society, not just ourselves. They want to advance people by eliminating the intellectual materialism of religion and the shackles of a debt and scarcity-based monetary society. That is nice you are like, related to a saint but that means nothing to me because I think religion is just a way to control people, but we agree to disagree on that.

I think what you are saying and doing is genuinely trying to assist what you perceive as a threat, but I assure you. - the Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement are totally SEPARATE of one another, although procedes from the Zeit Movement go to the Venus project.

Things to remember: You do not have to participate in anything that Jacque Fresco says. No one on earth now will ever have to. It is simply too far ahead. What the Zeit Movement seems to want to do is begin a move away from where we are now so we can go in a spiritually and intellectually better direction.

Also, I am a blogger on this zeitgeistmedia.blogspot.com... is my site. I am working on talking to other people about this. I find it very intriguing and invite any who might want to talk about it more elsewhere.

Also, as far as the thread starter bailing out? I do my thinking for me. Just because they started the thread doesn't mean they are the leader of the movement. They might not be as informed as I am or anything. Not to mention, people have their own reasons for not joining and that is ok. I am not here to recruit and there is no point in trying to. The Zeitgeist Movement is all about raising the awareness of our current situation to a heightened level of recognition of the global consciousness. What you do with the information is on you. Finally, the Movement is more a collection of like-minded people who simply wish to start to raise the awareness, not indoctrinate anyone into some cult of illuminati zombies that suck the life and soul out of others. There seems to be a boogeyman thing going on around this, but what can I say ZEITGEIST the word is GERMAN and Americans automatically think GERMAN?!?! They're all NAZIS SATAN 666 EVIL ILLUMINATI!!!! and that kind of ignorance is staggeringly horrific.

As for a working model... Would you ask for a working model of ahouse that you are starting to save for 50 years in advance? No. You worry about that when you have the money saved. We'll worry about a working model once enough people show that they see the problem before implementing a solution of any kind.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by TK-421]

[edit on 15-10-2008 by TK-421]

I just finished reading the PDF of The Venus Project offered free on Zeitgeistmovement.com, and I have to say to Zman, I really don't see any validity in your argument against the idea.

What I read today hit home for me on so many levels it is impossible to explain it all here. I have sought for clarity and education my whole life and I have never read anything as well thought of and as innovative as The Venus Project (TVP).

I have never trained missionaries (I don't believe in their cause), nor have I gotten a homeless person out of being homeless, but I am a true believer in the potential of all people to be good and of raised awareness. What I am not, and never have been, is a believer in the monetary system, and definitely not in the idea that suffering is a mandate in human existence.

I can see why Peter devoted much of Addendum to TVP. I cannot see how TVP could come off as a scam to anyone. Jacque comes across to me as someone who probably spends the majority of hours in his day devoted to finding answers to human suffering and lack of equality and the degradation of the environment. How is this a scam? It seems to me that all throughout history, people like him are ridiculed and ostracized, and then ultimately, they tend to be the ones who we wished we would have listened to sooner.

I don't like to think of the movement as a revolt necessarily. Instead, I like to think of it as what the maker of the films is saying it is. It is an emergence from what we are forced to live in, to what we will be happy to live in. That is of course speaking of movement from a monetary/debt society to a resource based society.

Time and time again, we are reminded of how the only true constant is change. So please Zman, enlighten me as to how that concept is not true. If you can agree with that thought, then why continue to devalue a well intentioned person's life's work, that is based very much on that same idea?

He states in the PDF that it will take the eradication of money for something like TVP to reach any sort of fruition. When, and only when there is no money, will there be a chance for something as ever-expanding as their plans to become a reality. Also, without the loss of money, people will go on with their lives without motivation for accepting such changes.

I am spending each day engulfed in feelings of urgency. Not only because the monetary system is seeing the inevitable collapse as we speak, but because I fear for my child and family. What does the near future hold for humanity if seeds like Zeitgeist and TVP are not planted? I am part of the intellectual movement and only hope that together, we can persevere when our world starts to crumble all around us.

Originally posted by TK-421
reply to post by zman

 

Ok Zman,

First thing you have to bear in mind is that the venus project is NOT being forced down the throats of the people in the Zeitgeist Movement. It is just ONE POSSIBLE alternative to what we have. The Venus Project is just one of any possible extrapolation that we might attain in hundreds of years.

Next, You seem to like switching back and forth here. In the Resource-based society, there is no money and just by virtue of eliminating debt and money, there are no poor so everyone is free to participate. Next, it is about love and trust. Love is something that we need to fully embrace before we even consider any dreams of utopian grandeur. The idea is to develop the ENTIRE society, not just ourselves. They want to advance people by eliminating the intellectual materialism of religion and the shackles of a debt and scarcity-based monetary society. That is nice you are like, related to a saint but that means nothing to me because I think religion is just a way to control people, but we agree to disagree on that.

I think what you are saying and doing is genuinely trying to assist what you perceive as a threat, but I assure you. - the Venus Project and the Zeitgeist Movement are totally SEPARATE of one another, although procedes from the Zeit Movement go to the Venus project.

Things to remember: You do not have to participate in anything that Jacque Fresco says. No one on earth now will ever have to. It is simply too far ahead. What the Zeit Movement seems to want to do is begin a move away from where we are now so we can go in a spiritually and intellectually better direction.

Also, I am a blogger on this zeitgeistmedia.blogspot.com... is my site. I am working on talking to other people about this. I find it very intriguing and invite any who might want to talk about it more elsewhere.

Also, as far as the thread starter bailing out? I do my thinking for me. Just because they started the thread doesn't mean they are the leader of the movement. They might not be as informed as I am or anything. Not to mention, people have their own reasons for not joining and that is ok. I am not here to recruit and there is no point in trying to. The Zeitgeist Movement is all about raising the awareness of our current situation to a heightened level of recognition of the global consciousness. What you do with the information is on you. Finally, the Movement is more a collection of like-minded people who simply wish to start to raise the awareness, not indoctrinate anyone into some cult of illuminati zombies that suck the life and soul out of others. There seems to be a boogeyman thing going on around this, but what can I say ZEITGEIST the word is GERMAN and Americans automatically think GERMAN?!?! They're all NAZIS SATAN 666 EVIL ILLUMINATI!!!! and that kind of ignorance is staggeringly horrific.

As for a working model... Would you ask for a working model of ahouse that you are starting to save for 50 years in advance? No. You worry about that when you have the money saved. We'll worry about a working model once enough people show that they see the problem before implementing a solution of any kind.

[edit on 15-10-2008 by TK-421]

[edit on 15-10-2008 by TK-421]

Welcome to ATS by the way, wow, there seems to allot of new members. Conspiracy?. Anyway no one has answered my questions. Now you say spirtualy we have to look for the love and do not use discernment to sway the program. That is not very easy, as we all , and I mean everyone, has a culture or a background that says this is this and that is that. We all agree to disagree, as you have of my posting, but I do not mind. Its looking for the truth in all things that gets me to a site like this and using my discernment and general knowledge on subjects that I have studied. I notice there is no posting at the Venus Project of a rights proclaiment, like we have already. ( www.constitution.org... ) . I think it is much better for people who yearn to be free use a system that did work at one time, until special interest and corporate means got involved in the process. Which is why JFK, whom I saw as a child wrote this excecutive order (www.john-f-kennedy.net... ) . This took the power away from big buisness and the FED and placed it back to the people again, like it was. Now its all numbers as we are numbered. This was not the way it was supposed to go. Every cadidate talks about change, yet I see more of the same and not getting the right canidate to accutally do what is required and right. Now, I have seen no proclomation from this movenment. I see not real plan to or showing of any tangable way to Implement this. To me I will not join anything that does not fully explain itself. So far I have had agruments with all these new people coming to this site to agrue for this project. By the way welcome to ATS for those who acutally read what I am saying. But to come here and proclaim this is the way without the mentioned above is a scam. Hence, this is why I will never join this project. Look within the system we are in and repair the flaws as it is our right to do so.

[edit on 10/16/2008 by zman]

Welcome here you too zman

i understand when ppl dont want to support an ideology or a new system at all. coz cmon who re we kidding..we have been taken advantage of by every single thing. but atleast some1 is trying to bring about a change.the venus project is an option but not a definitive solution. to change this world we will have to implement some sort of a system. beliving that we are free or we dont need any kind of system is a mistake as we humans need a direction to move to..if we scramble there will be no unity and tht is what we need. 1 person can not bring about a change but a change requires every one to believe that it is possible. zeitgeist movement can be associated to a group or a cult..but only a group can think and present different ideas. we need to get more people into it as this creates awarenss and brings about new ideas. who ever has watched zeitgeist sees world in a different perspective and everyone understands the need for a change.

so u see unity is a key and ideas has got us humans where we are and more the people more the ideas. other than that u are ur own master

reply to post by Shocka


i've felt this way for thirty years, i was begining to think the masses were caught in a never ending spiral with no way out. it's almost liberating to actually see groups taking on the task to reengineer a better tomorrow.
if there is anything i can do to be a part of the change, i'm in! ..rangerrog

I dont think that a change in the system in the solution, i think it is a change in us that is required. once that happens a system will present itself.

We need to get over our greed and our "Boivine Excrement". We need to stop being to petty, so jealous and so callous toward the plight of those around us.

rebirth is the word......rebirth

Yes,

Basically, we are looking to rebirth our world into a new era of Enlightenment, I think this is the Great Genius that Nostradamus refers to. In order for us to transcend such petty, base, irrelevant notions as we are forced to suffer nowadays, we must grow intellectually and apply what we learn, not fear the ability of our minds. We can do it, it is within our grasp. I no longer fear the future, because we have realized that we can use our minds. And I know we will not be the last. Viva la revolucion!

- Zmbie out.

[edit on 17-10-2008 by TK-421]

I agree, these changes lie within our grasp, but they do not lie with movements and projects, they lie with the individual.

Each of us needs to sort out our own issues. we need to stop looking for a system to fix the world, and work on fixing ourselves.

A movement entirely made of leaders can not be brought to its knees.

Plz write "yes" below here if you believe in this specific thing. (also anonimously)

Take care my firends

Yes

I got a better one.

A movement made of nothing but leaders can never get ON it's feet.

Leaders inhierently believe that they are correct, and that you are wrong.. thats why they NEED to lead you... to show you the way... their way.

Now put a bunch of "Leaders" into a group together. see how much they get done and how much they just argue about who is or isnt right.

If you dont believe that, why dont you start looking through the last 30 or 40 years of history and see how much the UN has gotten done... they're all leaders.

Ok this will be long...

New to the forum, only read this thread, but all of this thread.

Table of Contents
1. Quick response to zman
2. Proposal
3. Copies of MSN conversations about this topic (summed up in proposal)


1. Quick response to zman

This is a fundamental paradigm shift and I dont beleive you have quite made it there.

I dont doubt we could connect on certain points but the idea to 'agree to disagree' implies you disagree that society should be structured to be emergent. By disagreeing that progress can be made you are claiming the current system is how they say in the film 'established' and as a self appointed guardian of the status quo you are just getting in the way of people who are trying to come up with solutions to the questions you are demanding answered.

You say there is no established model, so what is the problem with people wishing to design and establish one? Why are you denying its possibility instead of contributing, we could probably use some of your gardening tricks, and just like me I'm sure you sit and think of improvements for everything you encounter in your life. So there is no end to your possible contributions as well as every other human in this world.

What about the homeless guy living in his car? During transition we could certainly use his help and physical labour along side us as a brother, but if he were disabled or incapable of physical work we would have every reason to keep him and his family at the same standard of living we enjoy because as a resourse based economy the support of human quality of life is our primary concern and as a supported and healthy (as technologically possible) person he would therefore be able to contribute in any way he wants.

What about you? If you dont want to join? More power to you, help yourself, build or use a house, grow your own food, have as many children as you want. If you want support, food, medical attention just ask were more than happy to provide. Dont want to contribute back? No problem we have more than enough.

This is the post-scarcity dream and once it is realized as they say 'civilized society' can begin. All the 'movement' is trying to accomplish from the way I see it (and I'm not alone as I have read) is to refocus from a profit and monetary system to one where sustainability and quality of life are what is prized. One where building a house for everyone that wants one is a 'profitable' decision. Profitable because we have changed peoples mindsets of what profitable is.

You have certainly made your point over and over, agree to disagree has been said more times than I can count. So then you disagree, you want a working model. Don't discourage others from contributing to the design of that model, contribute, observe or ignore. No one single person has indicated any interest in control over this process, show us that person and we would all shoot him down in a heart beat.

Now for my proposal.

2. Proposal

As we know there is no end game proposed, not utopia, just an emergent society dedicated to the 'careful management of the worlds resources' and the improvement of the quality of human life. One who is always trying to improve itself.

We agree that in order for this to happen we need to operate within the current system to at least accuire enough resources to reach the critical mass that would create such abundance.

To begin this process a critical mass of conciousness first needs to be reached, I am not Che, nor Ghandi nor MLK. I will leave the changing of minds to people like them. But I and others like me CAN develop a plan/system to follow to help with this transition.

So people eyes are open, they want in, what do we do now?

-continued-

I was pleased to see people compare this to the GPL (General Public License) and open source software, but there is a fundemental difference, the GPL is to prevent people from applying physical property laws and concepts to something that isnt remotely the same. We need to address property laws specifically inttiletual property. Get people to think about inventions like they now do software.

So there is potential there. What if we were to develop a patent that allowed anyone to make modify and give away (zero cost, no price tag) the item for free. If that item were sold for any price a royalty must be paid to an organization.

Now using the word organization will probably send shivers down some peoples spines (zman ) and yes corruption is always a concern, that I think can best be battled with information, if things were truly transparent there would be no place for exploiters to hide.

The organization is specifically temporary with the intention of jump starting this transition.

Currently people come up with ideas every second of every day, but people dont share them because of the fear that someone else will steal it and they wont reap the benefits. I.E. Someone saying patent pending before telling you about a good idea.

If there was a system built into the patent that ensured that a portion of the 'profit' under the current system would funnel 'money' into this organization.

But were trying to get away from money, profit, and eventually patents! What are you saying?!?! Let me explain

The sole purpose of this organization is to convert the money it receives into resources, instantly. These purchases would be directed by computerized neurvous system monitoring our needs. If we need more food to feed new citizens and in order to build the hydroponic greenhouse we need iron and on the land we own we dont have iron resources it would buy iron (ideally an iron mine, which would the be revamped solely for efficiency without consideration for 'profit') once these resources are purchased their ownership is stripped never to be 'owned again' instead managed and used by all for all.

Once this organization has purchased enough resources to not only support its current population but there is a critical mass of those resources that we can perpetually grow with zero footprint we declined to renew the licences, we no longer allow the private corporations to sell our products for any price.

Soon we are producing well beyond our needs, we start exporting food, houses, hospitals, everything to other cities and countries, free of charge. Eventually as the 'market' is flooded nothing would cost anything, people would join not because we convinced them they would join because its all free. You cant convince someone to pay you for something based on ideals if its given away free with no strings attached.

As you will see if you read the msn conversations below I am most interested in how something like this would work. Could that patent idea succeed? Please try and poke holes I need people to bounce this idea off. If you have contributions please add to this.


3. I decided to leave out the msn conversations, interesting but too long