Sex laws are 'unfair to teachers'

Death_Kron

Sorry, if this has briefly taken your OP slightly off topic, but rest assured I will be back on the point in a moment.

The 'trust' that a lot students place in their teachers is on many different levels.
You mention personal/family problems - that comes into it a lot. Some of the stuff I am told tears you apart inside.

In terms of trust regarding what's being taught, that's a biggie for me. I try to make sure that apart from my subject knowledge I try to teach them about bigger issues (in relation to my subject) as well as well as letting them know that just because they are 'taught' somethign by a government doesn't make it true - obviously this is with the older students.

I hope that my students trust me to give them good advice when they need it - like encouraging one lad to go to the STI clinic after he attended a fairly 'mad' party shall we say.

Advising others not to go breaking into houses that are derelict - not just becuase it's illegal but because they might get hurt.

If you saw your teachers as 'just teachers' that's great and I have no problem with that, but for some kids we are the only bit of stability they get in their lives. Which is a damned scary thought.

Anyway, back to your OP.

From my POV, it is wrong that a teacher who had sex with a student over 16 should go on the sex offenders. The register is there for those who are a real threat to others.

From my experience, teachers who have sex with students (of a legal age), do with consent on both parts. It is an anomaly, especially when you consider that if you are caught with a minor, but have reason to believe she is over 16 (like you met in a club and went straight home) and you have no prior sexual convictions there is usually no problem...

In my mind, if you go to a club, you have to be careful because we all know that there will be girls under 16 there.

However, when two consenting adults - and that what this situation is - agree to have a relationship it can be seen as criminal because of a professional relationship? Bizarre.

I do not condone it because it is unprofessional, simple as that, but it is not always wrong IMHO.

I wouldn't do it because that's the kinda person I am, but I think each case has to be looked at in detail and on a case by case basis. If there is real cause for criminal investigation, such as allegations of rape or stalking etc then great - bring on the prosecution, but don't go telling two people who may love each other that it is wrong when it may not be.

Anyway,

probably opened a can of worms by admitting I'm a teacher and writing this, but there you go.

Remember two final points please.

1 - we are talking OVER 16's
2 - I would never do it


Peace,

MGGG

Edit to add to RFBurns:

I think it's important to note just how mature some 16, 17 and 18 year olds can be...

And remember that teachers can be as young as 21...

That's just a 3 year age gap in some cases - not a lot.

Cheers.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by machinegun_go_go]

[edit on 5-10-2008 by machinegun_go_go]

Actually, in the UK you CAN in a sense join the army at 16. From 14 (I believe) to 16 you can be in the army cadets, which is effectively basic training..including firing live ammunition.

Then at 16 you can join the army at which point you live at a special military barracks training and learning for the next two years.


And perhaps he will be emotionally attacthed more than the teacher, but that can be said about ANY age. Why interfere here and not other relationships?

I agree with the Teachers Union. They shouldn't be faced with a criminal charge of any kind, as what they are doing isn't "illegal".

As the Union said, a teacher could have sex with as many 16,17 or 18 year old Sixth Formers from any other school without fear of prosecution, except their own when they face not only a criminal charge, but being put on the same list as rapists and peadophiles!!

At worst, the teachers should just face a disciplinary hearing and even then, the Pupils feelings should be taken into account. They might really be in love, so they shouldn't automatically be presumed to being some sort of pervert for wanting to have sex with a 16 year old.

For the person who said "middle aged person having sex with your daughter", well, not all teachers are middle aged. Anyone with a degree can be a teacher (after an additional course), so technically you could have 22 year olds being teachers. Not a great deal of difference now, is there?

I went to an all boys school when I was a lad and we always had hot, young student teachers coming to train.

Some couldn't have been much older than 22 or 23 and as you can imagine at an all boys school, they got ALOT of attention.

I know if I was in Sixth Form and one of those ladies was eyeing me up, I'd be straight in there!

But, when my daughter turns 16, she is free to shag whomever she pleases, whether I approve or not. So if she chooses to get knobbed by her History teacher, whether he be 25 or 45, thats her perogative.

No crime is being committed, just a teacher being unprofessional. Even then for all I know, they could really be in love, in which case I'd support the teacher if it came to it.

He might deserve to be sacked, but not to have his life destroyed by being put on a Sex offenders register.

reply to post by stumason


Stu,

It is a pleasure to read such sensible thoughts in this day and age of needless panic and constant 'speaking as a parent' - itis.

Thank you, sir.

A refreshing read.

reply to post by StevenDye


15 years and 9 months, actually! As long as you have completed your GCSE's, you can join when you're under 16, although you won;t see active duty until you're 18.

All soldiers will under go a period of Military training (around 3-6 months) and trade training before seeing active service.

If you're under 18 and in the Army, you're not forced to live on "barracks and learn". Once you have completed basic training, you're free to live wherever you like, provided you can get to work on time!

reply to post by machinegun_go_go


Cheers! I try not to be one of the "Daily Mail" brigade.. Too many of them in this country already!

Is this a question of how many are mature and how many are not?

No I dont think so.

The question is the sex offender listing of a particular teacher.

Perhaps putting him on that list isnt the right thing to do. Not my area of expertise nor do I have any legal expertiese to make that call.

But I will throw this out there for all of you to chew on. Google the history of relationships of this type and see the track record.

I am not trying to say that it is wrong, nor am I trying to say that it is right. What I am saying is that I hope both of these individuals have the capacity to look byond the emotional circumstances and as much admiration they have for one another, the understanding and ability to make the right choice for both of them is as equal to the emotional level they have for one another.

Ive seen too many young kids that get into this kind of thing end up a tradgedy and worse, most of which have gone into the situation thinking they knew what they were doing..and as a teacher yourself, you know today's young generations are pressured into things that they do not have the full understanding of and end up a basket case. True there are some that end up in a positive thing, which is great! And there are alot of young kids out there that do think before leaping, which is also great!

You are a teacher, now tell us this. Other than giving us what you as a teacher would and would not do...can you actually say that just because there are the few that can handle something like this that it applies to all of them? How many kids have you dealt with..as a teacher, who end up in tragic situations because they went into something basically blindfolded.

As I said earlier, its great that they may end up living a long happy life together and I for one would be the first to stand up and cheer if that happens. Just observing, reading and listening to so many stories of tragic endings with this kind of thing, gives me pause to just readily go along with arrangements of this kind, a young individual linking up with an adult, who in fact, should be considering alot more than just being with a younger person becasue there happens to be an emotional bond.

More power to them and hope it works out. But lets not suger coat the potential risks and problems that can happen if it were to not work out...and if that happens..I will also be the first to stand up and say "I told you so"...as probably will the 16 yr old's parents and other young friends.

Cheers!!!

[edit on 5-10-2008 by RFBurns]

reply to post by RFBurns


Hi,

Whta I was getting at was that no - it's not right that someone should be put on the sex offender's register for this insomuch as it's a relationship between consenting adults in the eyes of the law.

Now as for professional misconduct - that's a different story.

As I said earlier - each case should be looked at in detail by the authorities involved and on a case by case basis.

Simple as that really.

Regarding your question regarding how many students I know who have gone into things blindfolded, the simple answer is 'lots'.

I also know a lot of adults who have done the same.

The point, as you yourself stated, is whether or not the teacher should be classed as a sex offender. And my honest answer to this is 'no.'

Professionally questionable - yes.

Morally questionable (based on likelihood of success of relationship in favour of short term gratification on both parts) - maybe.

A sex offence - no.

Interesting discussion this, I find, and I respect your views and train of thought on this. Kudos to you.

Peace,

MGGG

reply to post by sir_chancealot

There is in the end, nothing wrong with sex if your of an age to desire and have sex.There is this whole take advantage of philosophy if a 16 year old girl makes love to an older man.

But I have known the stories of the loss of virginity and sexual experiences of many 16-18 year old girls andfrom in thier own age group, most of those stories are horrific by comparisson

Loss of virginity behind the dumpster at circle K, screwed in a room at a party and the door is kicked open humiliating her, gotten drunk in the woods and used by multiple teens...on and on

It's not much a wonder a 16, 17 year old girl might choose an attractive intelligent man in his 20's 30's 40's

I'm 38, I know how I treat a woman now and at 17... how much sex I was having with how many women, what my std risk coulkd have been then as oppossed to now (not by %) but... just what I do in a 3 month spand before i'd ever know... the safety of my home, money...

Frankly I can't help but think a girl choosing me at 17 now... wouldn't be ALOT brighter than a girl that chose me when I was 17

In all honestly... I was scum at that age, offered nothing, had no ability to help with any problems, knew nothing of tenderness and emotion, sexually was inferior...not in, stamina lol... but careing and attention...

I wonder sometimes... why it is like this, why at 17 I had sex every weekend often with different girls and socially that is acceptable... I was a rut lol, a cad, a jerk, a terrible boyfriend looking for another piece 10 minutes after the first girls was gone, uncontrolable hormones, no couth, potentially and only do to Luck was I never a disease threat... could never have afforded an abortion...

No place to have sex, but beaches under the boardwalk and parks and backs of cars... LOL if SHE had access to a car..ha!

What did a young girl have to learn from me at 17?

How to do gravity bongs?

How to have her reputation tarnished when I bragged?

How to get a broken heart?

How to be used?

I was... legitimately repulsive, a disgust a real perhaps threat to someones daughter

at any given time I wa sliable to be jumped being with her because I was always fighting with crews of local thugs, Dates were on the subway... heavy booze and other recriational habits were abundant in my life...


And Now... I find myself single at 38 for about 18 months...

and I have been going out and... I'm a really nice guy now


Not that I did anything bad ever... I just didn't give a damn besides about myself at that age... all offered, not enticed, but... tacky, self indulgent meaningless sex and no consideration or thought to it...


I was big into a Metal scene at the time, mostly women...looking for love the wrong way... and that being the case, I know what they found in me at the same age was not... a step up, a boost of self esteem, a friend... they were used. Not cared for.

and Now... what would be wrong with me? I have turned down one young lady, I honestly... my heart bled for this girl, a friends sister... she wanted me to be her first and, I had to deny it, say no to it...

It was painful for me because she was so beautiful...and despite these stories, we are talking about not every day scenerios where beautiful young women throw themselves at me... I have to work, i don't get out that much, I have responsabilities...

For most men an offer like that is..once in a lifetime at best beyond a certain age... to be wanted like that, adored, looked up to...

and I had to say NO

and I know from her sister who is older, how she lost her virginity and what the circumstances were... how she was used, humiliated, cried...

and why would I have been a Pedo If it was me to be with a 16 year old who... had a crush to a degree that some would arguably call Love?

Dinner, a House, ... A Bed, a guy that... would adore her, thank G-d for her lol... at a time in my life when, Honestly and truely, just being thought of as attractive by her took me miles... made me shake, brought tears to my eyes after I had to say NO, it was painful...

What she got (and I knew her a long time and am a friend of the family)... what she got was... for her first memory, was... barely a memory, drunk, half unconcious, painful, degrading, branded a whore by his friends...

what she got was... A Scar, not a Memory

and..yes, some girls are looking for... attention, to be Loved and do it the wrong way... but it doesn't stop them for looking

and I have to wonder... Who she will become from that first experience and what would be different if it was about adoration and caring instead...


And I lied... told her, I would be ...an awful man if I said Yes, that no man my age was any good if he would agree to that and she should find a nice guy her age...

and it was bs... i'm sorry, society made me send her to the dogs and I cared for her...

I know there are some men who would try to Prey upon girls if allowed to...

But the reality is almost ALL 16-17 year old boys are Predators...

So why shouldn't a young woman who... knows better be allowed to make her own choices? What is the alternative?

HS isn't some Sitcom, you know? These boys get them wasted, use them... talk about them, pass them around thier friends, have no money for abortions or to support them if they kept a child, don't love them... don't even Like them... Lie, use dope, expose them to violent situations and dangerous conditions, dope, and don't..chersih the moment... don't understand Romance or what a girl wants... almost unanimously thier sexuality is derived from porn, they want to... humiliate them very often, feel powerful... and will do the same to another girl the same weekend given the opportunity...

So worry about your daughters?

I'd worry far more about thier peers frankly...

don't get me wrong, there are some "Nice" guys that age...

But a girl looking for that, isn't looking for the "nice" boys she wants to feel masculinity... and it's going to be older guy... or macho punk 99% of the time..

and I'm sorry but (i'm not a teacher btw) Given a choice... if it was my daughter and she was between in her thoughts

17 year old football captain and 40 year old English Teacher in terms of looking to be with "a man"

I think I'd rather her pick a real man... the guy that might have some wisdom and experience and appreciate her gift to him... as oppossed to the Child Boy who will build his Ego off of her and use her

It's not like a real "realtionship" will form that lasts forever from either of those experiences 99% of the time...

But if she is going to drink...let it be Wine I think from the older guy not Brass Monkey and Keg beer... if she is going to have sex, let it be in a bed after a nice meal by a firplace in a safe home... not, in a party while a bunch of punks videotapes it from the closet and laughs, let it be a guy who is discreet and has what to loose, not a person who will tell 30 friends in her school by the next morning

I think... let her be made love to... or at least have a chance at that, not to... not even fully remember what happened the next day...

and... everyone is an individual... Not saying that some girls won't make wrong picks and encounter... older guys who, Never grew up... Or that it doesn't happen that a younger guy might not love her and give her somethuing GOOD to remember...

So in short... I disagree, I think it is complete natural and often very bright of a 16 or 17 or 18 or 19 year old young lady... to lift herself out of the loop of Boys and go after a Man... and I think, men don't get asked unless, they have become something special, emotionally, intellectually, financially... an Older guy 90% of the time is "Yuck" unless, he is a special guy to her in some way...

Ther is a difference between an immature man who is a predator and a mature man who is ASKED, that's all

Regardless, the law should not be any different for the teacher. Any and every adult should be held against their states age of consent. If the age of consent is 16, then I see no reason for the teacher be reprimanded with by the law. The school district should be able to have their own rules, and fire the teacher if they wish.

Teachers having sex with under 18 year old children should most definitely be charged and put on a list, a lot of them. There's no excuse for that and frankly I have to believe a lot them are ill to be making sexual advances on 16 year old girls. I'm in my 20's and I think that's absolutely disgusting and can't imagine what could draw a teacher to in someone that age except a desire to have sex with underage girls.

Lack of maturity and therefor ability to make such a decision of course is one legitimate reason, no matter how "mature" they personally believe they are. Outward appearance of maturity and actual maturity resulting from experience and hormonal/neurological development are vastly different.

Secondly and just as importantly, the teacher is in a place of authority and trust bestowed upon him by not only the students but the parents. Each of them trusts that in leaving their children in the care of these individuals that they don't have to worry about them being sexually preyed upon, taken advantage of or discriminated against as a result of resisting their advances.

If teachers are to be told it's OK to behave in this way, that their students are in effect fair game, if only they can get them to say yes; how do you think that will affect students that don't wish their teacher to be making sexual advances? Now not only do they have to stay late to finish homework but they have to concern themselves with whether or not "homework" is really a euphemism for something else?

A priest and a quire boy is another example of where this is inappropriate. Pediatricians take care of 16 year old patients in the hospital. Say a 16 year old girl had some kind of long term illness or was in an accident and had a long rehab; during which time she developed a relationship with a young doctor in his 30's. For the doctor to engage in a sexual relationship with the young girl, is OK? Should parents need to be concerned that their doctor is making moves on their kid when they aren't around?

There's no reason why an adult needs to solicit a adolescent girl for a relationship, none. Find an intelligent, sexy woman, whose completed puberty and high school. Simple as that.

reply to post by RFBurns


The age of consent vaires, not just around the world but within the U.S. The legal age of consent in Washington D.C. is 15 years old.

What I am reading is that someone who did NOT break the law, but broke some unwritten ethical code, was put on the sex offender list.

reply to post by Death_Kron


eww you are grossing me out. i never had a crush on a teacher let alone have sex with them, I barely knew girls who did have that crush and actually act upon. Sick!

Originally posted by Jessica31
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

eww you are grossing me out. i never had a crush on a teacher let alone have sex with them, I barely knew girls who did have that crush and actually act upon. Sick!

I think your missing my point entirely.

Please re-read what I have wrote and then comment constructively.

Cheers

reply to post by Jessica31


Kind of reflects my point exactly, mainly the response from a young girl to older guys would be one of yuck...

an older guy is not going to get that kind of attention from a young girl unless something about him mkaes him worthy of it.

As far as predators... why make the law about the sex act? When the reality is women have all the rights in the world at least in the state to be protected from Unwanted Attention as it?

That would be the real issue right?

Men, seeking to look for, go after girls in that age bracket... opening them up to predator type behavior.

Any woman has the right to be left alone and have that enforced if the attention is unwanted

so why even delve into peoples rights to choose what they wish? When sometimes some younger women want that?


I wouldn't make the age of consent very young but I would say 16 like England is more rational in terms of decideing a man is a pedo for acting on a natural desire... I wouldn't bring the line right to puberty 13/14 because it's too young for sex period maybe...some adjustment period...2-3 years for understanding the urge is warrented, pure impulse isn't a behavior we want our kids acting on

but 5-6 years is a long time to tell a perosn who is sexually and biologically ready to hold off the urge...

I find, personally that some people at that age are fully men and women 16/17 sometimes others are not... and below that line it's mostly not an attraction



It's such an odd thing, men in general are "yuck" by the numbers, Men will often be attracted to any health woman where as women tend to be far more choosey in terms of looks and age and health


You say Yuck in regards to your teachers but realistically... don't you say Yock n regards to 70-80% of males in general?

Look at Brad Pitt 44

If he was your science teacher would Yuck apply? or would he not be as an individual Far more attractive than the typical boys in class?

how about

George Clooney 54?

What if he was somehow in the life of a 17 year old girl? would nopt a crush be possible?


Some guys just have something that's attractive to woemn I think and it Improves with age.... it's not a common thing in men, but for men in General 20% seem to attract all the women and the rest get NUTHIN!

In the example of Brad again 44 when Angelina was 30, is that wierd or wrong... NO it's Brad but if he was dumpy people would certainly comment on age

he was 30 when she was 16... would that have been wrong if Angelena met and loved him then?

Does being 30 make a Brad Pitt Old to a 16 year old girl

LOL does being 44 make Brad Pitt unattractive to 16 year old girls?

I bet Brad has posters on the walls of a couple Million 16 year old girls right now...


So really is any of this as much about Age as it is about... Most guys are yuck and deliver unwanted attention to women period?

The laws should reflect a womans right to back a man off when he is a predator period and focus less on numbers that don't tell the entire story...

There are cases... where the relationships are asked for and appropriate for the woman... or the Boy in some cases

Certainly in the opposite when as a teenager I had the good fortune to be with older women...it was nothing but a very positive, healthy experience for me and her... I was with women in thier 30's on 2 occassions between the ages of 16-17]

and it was a great thing for me, not just the sex but, the intelligence and the change of childish behaviors etc, etc... an older woman can teach a young man a whole lot about how to be a man... in ways far beyond sexuality too...

reply to post by Lucid Lunacy


Yeah, I mean..being fired is quite a punishment, if it wasn't forced...or pushed, why criminal charges? I can see where this happening sometimes can be healthy...

I mean... this is supposed to be a JUSTICE sytsem not a VENGENCE system lol, any time you get a topic that is disturbing Vengence speaks louder than law... and order

Think about it... maybe a parent would be disturbed by finding out thier daughter...for religous or personal reasons, but if it's HER chopice, particulalrly Her Request, if she made the moves...

isn't a guy getting fired, loosing his income, maybe a relationship or wife and all that goes with that quite a punishment already?

Brand him as a pedo for.. being unable to resist a girl who is bilogically sexully fertile and beutiful and seduceing him? A pedo for what? a Completely natural urge given age and physical development?

It's a fine line but somewhere below 16... women start to become unattractive to me, a little younger, less, any younger than that it rapidly fades to SICK... not a thought would be there

and it's biology, a sexually mature girl is a woman biologically... I have turned it down, but I wouldn't open the gas chamber for a guy who couldn't resist, It's understandable why the failure doesn't make a guy a pedo to have trouble saying no if a woman is 17 as opposed to 18

reply to post by RFBurns


Tragic ending?

Kind of a hard thing to judge in a society where 80% of relationships period end in divorce... What percentage of those would be considered tragic?

Kids with no parents, moms left alone, terrible fights


Sadly as we address a regard of a year or so difference in age, we simultaneously have a situation where, regardless of age the concept of relationships and how to deal with them as a whole seems to have disintigrated badly in western civilization.

Perhaps far more than age, mutal respect, faith and acring in general need to be addressed

In the end it's all individual not percentages, maybe if we began to take relationships seriously and devote more commitment to them as a whole, age would not much make a difference so much as people looked to the real of what is and is not healthy for them as individuals and we would not so much need to protect anyone from unhealthy situations

Just saying... the state of relationships as a whole in our society is so screwed up as it is, maybe there is a deeper underlying issues in poor decision making for our youth who have little to use as reference for what is and is not healthy for them.