Sex laws are 'unfair to teachers'

Hi Everyone,

Just wanted to hear what all yours oppinions are on this:

Teachers should not be prosecuted for having affairs with their sixth formers, a union chief has said. NASUWT general secretary Chris Keates said it was an "anomaly" that a teacher who had sex with a pupil aged over 16 could go on the sex offenders register.

Link: news.bbc.co.uk...

Are you kidding??? So basically what is being said here is that its ok for an adult who happens to be a teacher to have sex with a minor but its not ok at all if an adult who is not a teacher have sex with a minor.

How screwed up is that!!!!!!

Any person under the age of 18 is a minor and any adult, teacher or not, having sex with any person under the age of 18, by consent of the minor or not, is a crime....PERIOD.

No wonder kids are so screwed up these days..getting so much mixed signals and of all people, from teachers that are supposed to be mentors, guides of decency and teaching them to prepare for the adult life.

Seems the concept of "teacher" is out the window and being replaced by sick lust.

Any teacher, or adult messing with minors should be put in jail and put on the sex offenders list for life.

Cheers!!!!

Actually in the UK the age of consent is 16, not 18.

It is stupid, th teacher should not be placed on the sex offenders register. Perhaps it should be frowned upon as they have a place of trust with the students, but it most certainly should not be illegal.

I suppose if the laws of countries have the age of consent lower than 18 is one thing, which only makes the legal part of the issue mute.

But morally, your correct, as is I. A teacher is supposed to be a trusted individual that us parents can rely on to guide our kids onto the right path and us parents have faith that our kids will not be taken advantage of by the very people we put trust in.

As far as the sex offender list deal for your country goes, I dont know a whole lot about the legal system in the UK or how this particular issue would be resolved. This particular teacher my have a legal leg to stand on in this case, but outside of that it is a moral crime and a misuse of trust put into that teacher.

Just because something may be legal, doesnt necessarily mean its right.


Cheers!!!!

They're saying in the normal population, since 16 is the age of consent, its not sexual assault for an adult to have relations with a 16 year old, so it seems an anomaly for a teacher to be prosecuted until 18, but if the student was attending a different school, 16 would apply.
Professional conduct, and laws pertaining to sexual offenses are 2 different things. I agree that 16 should apply universally legally for statutory rape, but any teacher goes against the code of conduct, and therefore is morally wrong, for engaging relations with a student at any age, even in college. Doctors and psychiatrists and therapists do as well, no matter what the age. While they don't face criminal charges, their profession has its own methods of punishing offenders of the professional code.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by mystiq]

Originally posted by RFBurns
I suppose if the laws of countries have the age of consent lower than 18 is one thing, which only makes the legal part of the issue mute.

But morally, your correct, as is I. A teacher is supposed to be a trusted individual that us parents can rely on to guide our kids onto the right path and us parents have faith that our kids will not be taken advantage of by the very people we put trust in.

As far as the sex offender list deal for your country goes, I dont know a whole lot about the legal system in the UK or how this particular issue would be resolved. This particular teacher my have a legal leg to stand on in this case, but outside of that it is a moral crime and a misuse of trust put into that teacher.

Just because something may be legal, doesnt necessarily mean its right.


Cheers!!!!

I agree with many of the points you have made, however to further this debate I would like to ask how can something as primal as sex be wrong if the two individuals in question are both of legal age AND emotional maturity?

I'm pretty sure that almost everyone member on this board has had a "crush" on one of their teachers at school and without being too graphic I'm also pretty sure that they wouldn't complain if they did have sex with that person.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm completely against misusing a position of trust but I don't see how this can be the case if both people involved understand what they are doing, not just the physical act but also the mental and possibly legal consequences.

There is definately a difference in a male teacher attempting to or actually having sex with an immaure, gullibale, naive and insecure 16 year old girl than a mature 16 year old girl who understands what she is doing and the possible repercussions, is this not so ?

I don't nescessarily agree that just because a girl is 16 and a teacher is a "person in a position of trust" that the said teacher is doing something wrong.

However, I would like to add that a teacher, from a stance of professionalism and realism should refrain from having sex with one of his pupils as he should understand the consequences, rumors, slander and damage to his career thats possible, regardless of how mature the girl is.

Lastly, before it's said, I completely disagree with any member who states that at 16 a person, girl or boy, isn't old enough to understand or to have sex.

That is a completely old fashioned oppinion and isn't true in the slightest, without divulging too much of my personal privacy but I had sex well before the age of 16 and it didnt affect me negatively in the slightest, the girl it was with, in my oppinion wasn't mature enough at the time and maybe did affect her, however this isn't a generalisation and everyone is different. People need to bear that in mind.

Cheers!

Well, imo as a parent, I hold teachers to a slightly higher caliber of conduct. Automatically one holds a bit of control over you if one is in a position of authority, thus making it easier to abuse the innate trust students are supposed to have in a teacher. So I can see why it is made to be a crime, it could very well be abuse of position coercing a student into sexual relations for grades, or what not. This is why the laws exist.

Originally posted by mystiq
They're saying in the normal population, since 16 is the age of consent, its not sexual assault for an adult to have relations with a 16 year old, so it seems an anomaly for a teacher to be prosecuted until 18, but if the student was attending a different school, 16 would apply.
Professional conduct, and laws pertaining to sexual offenses are 2 different things. I agree that 16 should apply universally legally for statutory rape, but any teacher goes against the code of conduct, and therefore is morally wrong, for engaging relations with a student at any age, even in college. Doctors and psychiatrists and therapists do as well, no matter what the age. While they don't face criminal charges, their profession has its own methods of punishing offenders of the professional code.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by mystiq]

As you say and as I mentioned, I think the main issue here is professional restraint or the lack thereof. Let me pose another question:

Everyone on here ( I hope!) would think that it would definately be wrong for a psychiatrist to have sexual relations with one of his patients knowing full well that however attractive she maybe, she is depressed/self harming/low self esteem etc

However, would everyone think it would be wrong if the psychiatrist and patient developed feelings for each other and after she had been treated and gone back to her old self they decided to have a relationship?

I know that having feelings for someone or thinking they are attractive are not the same as having sex with someone however hopefully you will understand the point I am trying to make?

[edit on 5/10/08 by Death_Kron]

Originally posted by hotbakedtater
Well, imo as a parent, I hold teachers to a slightly higher caliber of conduct. Automatically one holds a bit of control over you if one is in a position of authority, thus making it easier to abuse the innate trust students are supposed to have in a teacher. So I can see why it is made to be a crime, it could very well be abuse of position coercing a student into sexual relations for grades, or what not. This is why the laws exist.

"coercing a student into sexual relations for grades, or what not", yes I completely agree with this however what if the relationship, sexual or otherwise was 100% mutal and both parties knew and understood what they were doing?

Also, I think alot of people don't really understand the student/teacher relationship even though they have been to school themselves. Without calling any one on here old but times have changed and the relationship my parents had with their school teachers is completely different to the relationship I had with mine.

Personally I wouldn't consider ever having a trust based relationship with any of my teachers and I'm pretty sure that is the case for todays generation.

I do think though that this isn't the case regarding social workers, prison staff, psychiatrist's etc because the people they are dealing with are either insecure or vulnerable in this case the person is in my oppinion doing something wrong.

Would just like to add that yes, it is possible for someone vulnerable or insecure could be taken advantage of in a school setting, however it is my understanding that the vast majority of high school pupils are not as stupid to allow a teacher to have sexual relations with them.

[edit on 5/10/08 by Death_Kron]

reply to post by Death_Kron


You have some good points that can be debated. However in the case of a teacher who universally is expected to be someone of trust and respect in their profession, as another poster pointed out, it becomes a very touchy issue.

Now, when I was 16, I did have a crush on one of my teachers. She was absolutely beautiful!! And sure I had thoughts running through my mind, as probably every other 16 yr old male in that entire school. But I did know then that I did not know everything that I could have said that my feelings for this person was clear and that I knew of the risks if I were to have made a move. It doesnt matter if the 16 yr old "thinks" they know the risks or not. What does matter is the fact that a 16 yr old has not experienced life issues enough to know all of the differences between right and wrong.

16 is not 20, 30 or 40. Alot can be learned by a 16 yr old within 5 years, heck even 3 years these days.

The emotion factor, again how much experience does a 16 year old male or female have in understanding emotional responsibilities and risks compared to the older adult??? If it were put onto a scale, the scale would tip heavily to the adult knowing alot more than the 16 yr old. And that adult is also aware that they know far more than the young person they are getting involved with. Putting emotion before thinking is definately the wrong thing to do, and that adult should know that.

Now if this 16 yr old and this adult really have feelings for each other, are they true feelings or the spur of the moment, puppy love kind of emotion?

Can either of them say for sure it is real or just a sudden reaction to an adult having the chance to be with a younger person and the younger person letting their puberty spikes cloud their judgement too?

It would be difficult to know since we are not the idividuals involved. But I can bet that alot of what I coverd here would be a factor in this case if it were taken to a court. This adult would have a hard time explaining many of the things I have pointed out, as would the 16 yr old.

If their answer was only emotional attachment, it would not be an excusable reason to look the other way. Again, adults are expected to know the difference..and to know better.

Cheers!!!!

As a 16 year old in sixth form, I really can see how this probably happens alot more than you hear. Alot of teachers are also 'friends' of a sort.

For instance, I have a German in my history class... now he is accepting of it and is used to friendly taunts for being German. (To the point of I simply call him German and he calls me English. Then i tell people his dad is Hitler. It's all jokes.) Now the teacher also knew this having taught him before and made as many German jokes as he could in the first couple of lessons. All fun and games.

Another example, in my form the tutor is a woman, and the amount of sexual innuendo jokes that she gets is amazing . But she simply smiles, or even winks at the student and carries on. Something that the both sides only get away with because the teacher is known more than simply professionally.

I don't find it hard to see that eventually a student/teacher relationship could form. And if both sides really do feel the same way about eachother and know what they are doing, then why is it worng.

Sure you can say that a 16 year old is not as mature as he/she could be. But the same can be said for most things, why not limit cars to 25 year olds? And don't allow people to join the army until they are about 25, so the fully know what they are doing? People have to be given freedom to do what they wish, we shouldn't shield people from making their own mistakes.

reply to post by Death_Kron


Hi,

Can I just ask what you mean when you say that you wouldn't dream of having a trust based relationship with a teacher?

As a teacher myself I don't understand where you're coming from on that one.

Do you mean that you don't trust your teachers?

Peace,

MGGG

I have to agree with hotbakedtater on this. While there may be some mutual attraction (or hormones touched off) the fact that the teacher holds a position of power over the student makes it little different than the secretary that gave in to her boss to keep her job. Or in the case of the student, grades. Grades that can effect scholarships, college entrance requirements, etc.

While in high school many years ago (graduated 1989) I had two different teachers send some very strong signals of intention to gauge my willingness. In both cases they were fairly sure that I would keep the relationship secret and that my level of maturity and experience was attractive for them.

In the case of the second one, I dropped the class using the need for more freetime for doing a community play in Cincinnati as an excuse. She tried to leverage the 4 English/Lit credit requirement Ohio had as a pre-req for college. But I had that covered already with an elective my sophmore year that was no longer taught when she arrived. Actually that experience was rather disgusting as she used to sit on the desk in front of me in a skirt or dress and give the old Sharron Stone leg movement bit and she wasn't wearing either.

If these people in a position of trust and authority were priests instead of teachers, would we still be questioning the allowability of these relations?

Ok, so everyone who is "in favor" of this....

It's ok if grown men bang your 16 year old daughters, right?

Remember, this won't just apply to "hot female teachers" banging "horny teenage boys". It will mean "horny middle aged men" get to bang "hot, horny teenage girls".

Still want to say this is "ok"?

reply to post by Death_Kron


I live in a college town with many very attractive and often on the weekends very drunk co-eds walking around. Sure I could play on their fantasies or take advantage of situations but at the forefront (and admittedly sometimes only back) of my mind is the fact that I could be the father of almost any one of them due to the age difference.

Fortunately the formal address of "sir" when talking at random by many reminds me that they are well aware of the age difference as well.

Originally posted by machinegun_go_go
reply to post by Death_Kron

 

Hi,

Can I just ask what you mean when you say that you wouldn't dream of having a trust based relationship with a teacher?

As a teacher myself I don't understand where you're coming from on that one.

Do you mean that you don't trust your teachers?

Peace,

MGGG

It wasn't the fact that I didn't trust my teachers but I never encountered such trust on a personal level with any of them. For me it was simple, they taught me and I learnt from them, nothing more or nothing less to it.

Yes I can understand that a teacher may have a form of trust with one of their pupils in that they know about their personal/family problems but apart from that I'm not really sure what "trust" a teacher would have.

Perhaps you could provide some examples?

I don't really see where trust comes into play between a high school student and teacher, unless your talking about trust in believing whats being taught!

But seriously, maybe its just me and the person that I am but I never saw my teachers anything more than that, they were just simply teachers!

Originally posted by RFBurns
I suppose if the laws of countries have the age of consent lower than 18 is one thing, which only makes the legal part of the issue mute.

You are in the United States. Be aware that age of consent varies by state.

On that note a few years ago a teacher was convicted for having sex with a 14 year old student (female teacher, male student). At that time the age of consent in Georgia was 14 (it is now 16). She was convicted because Georgia law prohibits teachers having sex with students under the age of 18.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by Sonya610]

Originally posted by StevenDye
As a 16 year old in sixth form, I really can see how this probably happens alot more than you hear. Alot of teachers are also 'friends' of a sort.

For instance, I have a German in my history class... now he is accepting of it and is used to friendly taunts for being German. (To the point of I simply call him German and he calls me English. Then i tell people his dad is Hitler. It's all jokes.) Now the teacher also knew this having taught him before and made as many German jokes as he could in the first couple of lessons. All fun and games.

Another example, in my form the tutor is a woman, and the amount of sexual innuendo jokes that she gets is amazing

. But she simply smiles, or even winks at the student and carries on. Something that the both sides only get away with because the teacher is known more than simply professionally.

I don't find it hard to see that eventually a student/teacher relationship could form. And if both sides really do feel the same way about eachother and know what they are doing, then why is it worng.

Sure you can say that a 16 year old is not as mature as he/she could be. But the same can be said for most things, why not limit cars to 25 year olds? And don't allow people to join the army until they are about 25, so the fully know what they are doing? People have to be given freedom to do what they wish, we shouldn't shield people from making their own mistakes.

You were doing great until the limiting cars and enlisting bit. For one, no armed forces unless its from some third world nation is gonna enlist a 16 yr old. And second, cars and adults with minors are two totally different issues. There are some pretty bad adult drivers out there that can be put to shame by younger drivers ability to adhere to road rules and looking both ways.

Two sides to every coin. Seen alot of young drivers out there text messaging while driving too, as I have also seen alot of adults doing that too.

But the issue here isnt cars and enlistment. Its about a young person..there is the key word.."young", and an adult..another key word "adult" trying to form a relationship. If these two individuals were working towards a mutual relationship some time later when the 16 yr old gained a bit more on the learning curve of life, thats one thing. Jumping right into the fire however is what these two individuals are trying to do..yet there is one of them that already has a distinctive advantage over the younger person. Now can this younger person say for certianty, that they could handle it if this adult decided that its time to move on to another young adult and leave this 16 yr old hanging by the neck?

Granted there have been some relationships of this nature that have prospered and they are still together. Few and far between. A majority of these kinds of relationships end up in disaster with the young person ending up more hurt and scared for life than the adult. That is because the adult has the advantage of experience to deal with the risks than the younger person. That younger person gets tossed out and carries that stab in the back for the rest of their lives..into adulthood. What kind of future would that person have if their life is tarnished at such a young age then? Would there be enough ability to overcome that tradgedy on that kind of personal level for that young person to be able to deal with all the emotional baggage as to be able to let it go and not carry it into another relationship?

I would say that both of these individuals need to really step back and take a hard long look at the road that is in front of them and not just 3 feet in front of the fender.

Again this adult already has that advantage over the 16 yr old. The adult is far less likely to have any emotional problems if this relationship were to poof out of exsistance than the 16 yr old. It is the 16 yr old that would be taking the bigger risk for sure.

Since the legal system there in the UK's consnt age is 16, then it is up to the 16 yr old to decide. Hopefully the 16 yr old makes a wise choice either way, and makes that choice with confidence that no matter what happens down that road of life, they will be able to deal with it and not end up just another statistic or worse.

Cheers!!!!

reply to post by Sonya610


Yes I am aware of the different consent ages in different states.

I dont think the issue here is what is the age of consent, but rather of opinions if it is a right decision being made by a young individual who has far less experience with the matters of relationships in comparison to the adult who does.

Lots of ground for both of them to consider, is all Im trying to convey.

Cheers!!!