Anti-sematism on ATS should not be tolerated.

While I believe everyone and anyone are entitled to feel however they like, it should be kept off the forums.

Im not defending anti-semites in any way. I just handle it by chopping it up to ingorance and ignore it. Taking action on it does nothing more than feed they're rage. Im not going to contribute to that.

Originally posted by Sonya610

(For the record those threads did not involve Jews, I happen to be rather fond of Jews, I have socialized with many and worked for quite a few, very bright and eccentric individuals on average).

An odd statement to make. I'm curious, would you say that about white people? or catholics?

This is where the problem lies (not you Sonya, the world). People see a minority group in a certain light and need to point out things like this.

It's like the sportscaster referring to an african american athlete as "well spoken" or "a credit to his race." He thinks he's saying something positive but the reality is, it's downright negative. I know you meant know harm in saying you are fond of jews and they were bright but, seriously, do you know the religion of everyone you ever met? did you expect every jew to be a certain way? some jews are morons (I've got plenty of family members I can point you to) and some are geniuses. some are tall, some are short and so on. when you go into something with expectations, you've already formulated an opinion and the surprise you get when that opinion is wrong should be an alert to try not to formulate opinions about someone based on their religion, their nationality, their skin color etc.

I don't see people I deal with as being a part of any group other than the big one - mankind. we're all part of the same race and yet, when it gets subdivided, we get problems.

the whole united we stand thing works well for people, not just americans.

sadly, the majority of the world doesn't see that.

I am already in deep do do with one of the big guns, so I hope I don't get in trouble again, but the subject is near and dear to my heart

I would never KNOWINGLY, perpetuate the hatred of any one group of people.

But I am worried this forum, and many forums do this to the Jews, it seems to me the net is rife with hatred towards Jews and Christian's, Muslims, and the only argument I ever hear is, well look at the history, as if two wrongs make a right?

and the liberals hate the conservatives and everybody hates the aliens, lol

When will we stop blaming one another? The atmosphere of this planet is like a festering wound.

I don't know how this problem on forums or the Internet can be solved, but I do think you leaders should do something.

IT'S SO DISHEARTENING

reply to post by Stormdancer777


reminds me of the wise man Roger Waters.

And the Germans killed the Jews
And the Jews killed the Arabs
And Arabs killed the hostages
And that is the news
And is it any wonder
That the monkey's confused
He said Mama Mama
The President's a fool
Why do I have to keep reading
These technical manuals
And the joint chiefs of staff
And the brokers on Wall Street said
Don't make us laugh
You're smart kid
Time is linear
Memory's a stranger
History's for fools
Man is a tool in the hands
Of the great God Almighty
And they gave him command
Of a nuclear submarine
And sent him back in search of
The Garden of Eden

and yes, aliens are involved in the story:
Amused To Death. give it a listen

Originally posted by OzWeatherman

Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by Frankidealist35

 

Censoring any point of veiw is reprehensible.

So putting forward a view that you hate people of african american appearance is ok?

I dont see the difference between that and saying you hate jewish people

I'm not sure where you're getting that, i fyou have a specific post of mine I'll gladly comment on that.

The point I was trying to make has been well echoed through the thread, give hate the rope to hang itself.

reply to post by Stormdancer777


But, if you silence one group, where does it stop?

Not a one liner...

I always find it interesting that people are very quickly branded ant-semites or, should they ask the wrong questions, holocaust deniers.
I think there has been a deliberate conditioning of peoples minds over the decades to perpetuate the official line and stifle any investigation or questioning of "History".

History, as has so many times been proven, is written and taught along very strictly controlled lines and sometimes to push a specific agenda. It does not always mean it is correct though.

The smearing of people as anti-semites or deniers is there purely to deflect any open debate. I was brought up to question everything I am presented with and not to simply accept everything at face value, especially if presented by government or powerful people / groups with an agenda to fulfill.

No other historical subject is protected by laws and the penalty of long jail terms for questioning the official story, so why this one? What of other Genocides? The killing fields of Cambodia, the Ukrainian genocide etc?
None of these are protected by laws and are open to investigation and debate.
I have been called an anti-semite so many times it's laughable. It's got nothing to do with hate or bigotry, just a questioning attitude and an open and inquisitive mind.

So putting forward a view that you hate people of african american appearance is ok?

I don't see why not. If it offends people of african american appearance, so what? There's a lot of stuff in life that's going to offend you. It's part of life. You can't be coddled in mommy's arms forever.

People have made fun of me for being short, I just laugh it off. How is it any different than making fun of someone for being black? Both are things we cannot change.

Making fun of fat people seems to be socially acceptable, because being fat is something they can change. The reason it's seems not OK to be "racist" is because race is "something they can't change" (aside from Michael Jackson). But so isn't being short, or having blonde hair. I don't see anyone complaining about people making fun of short people, and I don't see anyone complaining about people making blonde jokes.


If we are going to create a society where we are "tolerant" and have to be politically correct about everything, we can't pick and choose what to tolerate and be politically correct about. Either we can't say anything at all, that offends anyone, or we can say thing that are offensive.

If someone were to say "I hate african americans", then so what? They are stating a fact. They hate them. So what? They aren't making threats against them or suggesting violence, or harming them in any way.

Are we the thought-police now where we can tell people what they can and can't hate?

Police state? 1984?


-LS

[edit on 5-10-2008 by LogicalSolution]

Originally posted by Frankidealist35
reply to post by Sonya610

 

#"I think that any kind of anti-religious comment on ATS should be looked at under scrutiny"#.

Organised religious institutions should NOT be exempt from criticism,condemnation or denouncement from anyone -they are just the same as any other type of institution with no ´special status´ whatsoever.


#"If someone wants to make a thoughtful comment on religion here with actual proof of their claims they should go ahead""

Ahh the irony-it is directly due to the fact that none of the 3000+ religions alive in the world have any ´proof´ that we find ourselves in the predicament we are in today.
We seem to be globally quagmired in relgious bigotry ie: different cults/sects bickering about who is more holy and superior than who...and with the possible exception of nationalism and political ideology,this mindset is one of the main causes of suffering,misery and death in the world today.
Its all very small minded,childish and insecure.


#"but, if they intend to just flame religious people I give them a

of disapproval."#

Your right on that one-disliking someone just because of their religious opinion is unwise-unless of course they act like Nazis.
What is also wrong is when religious people return the favour by hating fellow human beings they have never met and labelling them Goys,Kuffars,heathens,blasphemors,heretics etc...


[edit on 02/10/08 by karl 12]

Originally posted by neformore

No one denies those other things though, do they?
No one stands up and calls them fabrication.
No one stands up and says those heinous acts didn't happen solely because of the religion and race of the people invoved.
No one is trying to pass off Pol Pot as being "misunderstood" are they?

Attempting to deny/trivialise or justify the death of millions of people because of "racial superiority" is a reprehensible thing, don't you think?

I agree. However, to unjustly label and smear someone simply for asking questions and calling for scientific research of, for example, mass graves at Treblinka is suppression, pure and simple. Let scientific study be carried out and the evidence presented, as would happen with any other claim, for all to see and believe.

Is asking questions and asking for study trivialising something? Of course not.
I say again, by smearing someone publicly and jailing them for asking questions, are we not ourselves suppressing even the possibility that we may not have been given all the facts?

Are we not, after all, here on boards such as this to question the status quo as presented to us by those in authority? If we are then we should be allowed to express opinions on ALL subjects - none should be off limits. Sure, there are those with agendas and they can be fairly quickly recognised for what they are after a little research, but what of the others? What of those people persecuted and condemned simply for their beliefs in a possible skewing of the official mantra?

Originally posted by Britguy
No other historical subject is protected by laws and the penalty of long jail terms for questioning the official story, so why this one? What of other Genocides? The killing fields of Cambodia, the Ukrainian genocide etc?

If it doesn't tell you who really does control the world after all, then what does?

It's a law that you can't deny the holocaust for a reason. If too many facts get out, and people start thinking the holocaust didn't happen, a certain group of people who DO control the world will lose their power. No one in power wants to ever lose their control.

-LS

Originally posted by neformore
No one denies those other things though, do they?
No one stands up and calls them fabrication.
No one stands up and says those heinous acts didn't happen solely because of the religion and race of the people invoved.

People do.

Originally posted by neformore
Attempting to deny/trivialise or justify the death of millions of people because of "racial superiority" is a reprehensible thing, don't you think?

That's quite a stretch that they are denying it because of "racial superiority". You would be surprised, but there are actually some jews themselves who deny the holocaust. Many, MANY blacks also deny they holocaust.

The majority of people who deny the holocaust aren't even white supremacists at all, they are just denying it because it doesn't add up. I'm definitely not a white supremacist, but when you really examine the holocaust, none of it makes sense at all.

(and BTW my grandmother was 1/2 jewish so I don't think I could be a white supremacist if I wanted any way, since they want you to be racially pure and all that.)




And why is the jewish holocaust the "big one" any way? There have been holocausts both before and after it where even MORE people have died, but we never hear about any of those. That doesn't puzzle you at all, perhaps make you think we only hear about the jewish holocaust for a reason? Such as those with power will tell you what they want you to hear...

-LS

[edit on 5-10-2008 by LogicalSolution]

I would like to suggest that this thread be moved to a different forum, perhaps to religious conspiracies or general conspiracies. Partly so that we can star some of the great posts so far, and partly so that the discussion can be continued without the risk of being deemed "off-topic" because, for the most part, the discussion has moved away from "board business."

Somewhere in the Bible it says something about the "sins of the fathers" being visited upon their children. Personally, I think this is less about divine retribution or karma than it is about the nature of humans. If one's "fathers" wronged someone's religion, race, culture, family, etc., that someone will never let it be forgotten and will use it as an excuse unto generations...

For example, the following groups are now "untouchable" in some respects and can not freely be criticized because of their prior victimization:

The Jewish, because of the Holocaust and other persecution.
Negroes (not African-Americans because they aren't all from Africa and they aren't all Americans), because of slavery.
Native American "Indians" because the Europeans took their lands and came close to exterminating them.

I'm German, but I didn't send anybody to a gas chamber. I'm now a naturalized American, but I didn't take anything away from any Native Americans. When do I get to stop being accountable for things my ancestors, or the historical government of the country I live in, did? When will certain groups be asked to stop using history as an excuse, or a reason to be immune to criticism for current behavior? When, if ever, will I as a person of German descent be able to dislike an individual person who may happen to be Jewish (that's just an example, I don't think I even know any Jewish people) without the cries of anti-semitism going up and the "Germans hate Jews" stereotype being applied? When will people be able to criticize the current political actions of the country of Israel without the holocaust/persecution/anti-Jew card being played?

As an animal, humans have instincts. Instincts can be very useful. For example, when a puppy has its first encounter with a skunk or a porcupine, it's very educational. The puppy will thereafter expect every skunk to smell bad, or be capable of using the scent weapon, and will expect every porcupine to be prickly. This is part of the learning process necessary for survival, and it works very well - for animals. It would be ridiculous to expect a dog to have to investigate every individual animal anew instead of basing its response on what it has already learned about that species.

We, however, are human beings. We do not have to be driven by instinct. Although it can be useful to apply stereotypes to animals (we don't try to pet wild skunks!), stereotypes are often counter-productive in dealing with other humans. Overriding our instincts and investigating each human individual we encounter on his/her own merits is what is required, but we seldom do it.

When we collectively can decide to stop holding each other accountable for the historical acts of our ancestry, culture, religion, race, country of origin, etc., we may be able to make some real progress and move forward.

A small start might be to stop playing those victim cards every time a country, religion, or group is criticized for current actions. Having an objection to something Israel is doing today does not make one a Jew hater. Having concerns about black gang violence does not make one a racist. Objecting to having a big new gambling casino in the neighborhood isn't the same as not liking "Indians." Not wanting creationism taught to their children in public schools doesn't make one anti-Christian.

What an amazing thing it would be if we could discuss the real reasons for our disagreements using facts and logic instead of resorting to the old "you don't like me because I'm a " argument and thus avoiding any possibility of understanding each other or solving the problem. The ultimate copout for anyone who is afraid that their position, opinion, or actions won't stand up to logical scrutiny is "you're just hating on ______s!"

reply to post by Heike


Great post Heike. A little more eloquently put than my ramblings but we seem to be on the same page.

What bothers me is Canadian tax dollars going to build a Jewish Holocaust museum. Especially when the Canadian gov't is guilty of genocide & culture extermination of its own people via the first nations ignoring treaties it promised to uphold.

And if you are normal, then you can't be abnormal, therefore if you are original how can you be aboriginal? AB, a latin pre-fix for.................?

What about a museum for the extermination of native North Americans / South Americans by the Dutch, English, French, Spanish, Portuguese, German, Swedish, or the hundreds of years earlier when the Native tribes attacked the Nordics/Vikings for giving them goats milk?

What about Stalin murdering millions of Russians & Ukranians?

What about Mao & the communist party of China executing 50 million chinese?

What about the Turkish/ottoman empire's murder of Armenian Christians?

What about the Murdering of the Coptic Christians of Egypt by the Muslims?

Why does holocaust mean burnt offering? (Jordon Maxwell).

Why does one group get such special priviledges? Why does one group control banking and form public opinion via hollywood & television? Why is one group the major players behind pornography?

Why, why? Why can't you ask these questions.

P.S. some of my French ancestors were Jewish and forced to convert to Catholicism. I was baptised Catholic, but ended up in the WWCG Herbert Armstrong. Now I'm of no religion but do realize in pertaining to legal matters & corporations that the world is still run by Roman Civil contract law / Maritime Admiralty law.

Who is the synaguoge of Satan that Jesus warns us of? He didn't say church or mosque by the way.

Why, why? Why can't you ask these questions.

Because they have the power and are in control of everything. They don't want you to ask those questions, for if you do, and enough people believe you, they will lose their power.

No one in power wants to lose their power. It's only natural.

Originally posted by Frankidealist35

I see. I agree. I guess these people shouldn't be silenced, but, I do think that they shouldn't go out and promote these ideas just because they're on the internet, outside of law enforcement and a public place, just to offend people.

I would say just challenge those who you feel are being racist or sexist.

If you find someones racism or sexism offensive, rather than lobby for censorship, use YOUR freedom of speech to counter it. Just dont expect the person you are arguing with to be happy about it either.

There does seem to be times when criticizing a member of a group, like the Jews since you brought that one up, where you are placed at a disadvantage because that label applies to both a ethnic group a nationality, and a religion.

There also does seem to me, and others, a using of the historical suffering of that group as a means of deflecting ANY criticism by calling it "anti-Semitic."

en.wikipedia.org...

The Roman-Catholic historian Edward Flannery distinguished four varieties of antisemitism[3]:

* Political and economic antisemitism, giving as examples Cicero and Charles Lindbergh;
* Theological or religious antisemitism, sometimes known as anti-Judaism;
* Nationalistic antisemitism, citing Voltaire and other Enlightenment thinkers, who attacked Jews for supposedly having certain characteristics, such as greed and arrogance, and for observing customs such as kashrut and shabbat;
* Racial antisemitism, as practiced in the Holocaust by the Nazis.

In addition, from the 1990s, some writers claim to have identified a new antisemitism, a form of antisemitism coming simultaneously from the far left, the far right, and radical Islam, which tends to focus on opposition to Zionism and a Jewish homeland in the State of Israel, and which may deploy traditional antisemitism motifs.[4] Proponents of the concept argue that anti-Zionism, anti-Americanism, anti-globalization, third worldism, and demonization of Israel or double standards applied to its conduct may be linked to antisemitism, or constitute disguised antisemitism. Critics of the concept argue that it conflates anti-Zionism with antisemitism, defines legitimate criticism of Israel too narrowly and demonization too broadly, trivializes the meaning of antisemitism, and exploits antisemitism in order to silence debate.

Those definitions are so broad and confusing I do not even know if I qualify. I am highly critical of the Semitic religions, including Judaism. (But including the other Semitic religions, Christianity and Islam as well.) I dont treat individuals of any of those faiths a certain way based upon their membership in those faiths however, I consider them individually, based upon how much they think their religion should dictate to me what I am and should be. And, truth be known, I am nosier than that, I also care how they feel their religion allows them to treat other humans who are not me. If being opposed to or critical of a religion or group of religions that I think are highly problematic in terms of spreading oppressive religious and cultural norms around the world, so be it. I guess I am anti-Semitic then.

Anyway, I much prefer someone be allowed to tell me where they stand rather than enforcing a social code that drives their prejudices underground and doesnt do away with them, but only makes them harder to pinpoint.

This has all been very interesting and enlightening to read. I must say I try not to judge but it is hard sometimes. I like to think the older I get the more tolerant I am, and I do try to teach that to my children.

As always this site continues to educate and hopefully spread tolerance. There are too many diverse topics and people not too.

[edit on 10/5/2008 by Blogstalker]

Its the height of stupidity to deny the holocaust happened,not anti-semitic.

Neither is it anti-semitic to question how many people died,as the figures are constantly being revised.