Anti-sematism on ATS should not be tolerated.

Firstly, I'll say this. Disagreeing with the current Israeli government and its handling of political matters, and its actions involving its neighbours does not make anyone anti-semitic, unless its couched in racially motivated terms.

Personally, I'm a harsh critic of the way Israel handles things in the modern political age, but at the same time everyone, no matter what race, colour, creed or religion they are has a right to exist.

Now lets get on to holocaust deniers.

I think I pointed out in a recent thread that the WW2 Holocaust involved the following groups (I'll expand the list a little)

Gay people
Disabled People
Russian Prisoners of War
Polish Prisoners of War
Political Dissidents and "undesirables"
People from the Slavic regions of Eastern Europe
Romanies/Gypsies
Local prominent figures and families not sympathetic to the Nazis
Resistance movement members and;
Jewish people/people thought to be jews/people who harboured jews.

I have never, once seen a holocaust denier say that Romanies weren't exterminated, or Polish Prisoners. It always concentrates on the jewish people.

Theres a reason for that, and its because they perceive an "injustice" that the main reference for the Holocaust tend to point to Jewish people. What they fail to understand is that approximately 80% of those killed were jewish.

But take the jewish people out of the equation and you're still looking at 1.2million other people, if you hold with the figure that 6million were exterminated.

1.2 million civilians and prisoners of war over the space of five years, systematically rounded up like cattle, and shot/gassed - 240 thousand a year.

Its still genocide. Its still inexcusable. Its still vile. Its still one of the greatest crimes in world history - yet they "deny" that as well.

You can play with the figures of the number of jewish people deliberately targetted and killed by the Nazi's in WW2 all you want, but lets start with a very conservative figure of 1million.

1 million people - roughly the population of the City of Glasgow in Scotland, just gone. Removed. Erased. Solely because the people were of a certain race and reglion.

2 million maybe? - Kiss goodbye to Houston,

Raincheck here.... thats 3.2 million people so far, and we're assuming that 1.2 million of those were non jews. Thats half of what the generally accepted figure of those killed was, and jewish people make up 60% of it.

You see what I'm getting at? The figures may be less, but it doesn't make any of it right at all, does it. Its still a filthy inexcusable act.

(For the record, on terms of scale for those who are not able to comprehend, or choose to try and not comprehend, the 6 million figure relates in size to removing LA and Chicago from the map at the same time)

And there is proof, a plenty, that such acts did happen, and the maths on those acts is not hard to work out - although some people will argue that it is. There is written evidence, there is photographic evidence and there are survivor testimones that all point to it happening.

So when someone tells you that it didn't happen, or the numbers were less, its always worth asking them what part of the death of half the number generally claimed is acceptable, or even of "only" a million people. Or what part of the photographs and records recovered from the Nazi's and the testimonies of the survivors is not proof. And its always interesting to ask them why they feel the need to dispute it.

And they'll come up with answers about zionism. They come up with answers about how "other genocides" have taken place - and they have and none of them are acceptable either, and they'll ask why it is that the holocaust in WW2 only gets the spotlight and is taught about in schools, and the simple question to ask is this - why shouldn't it?

Even if it was "only" 1.2 million people of non-jewish extraction, why shouldn't it? Its the single biggest example of a calculated civilian extermination during the single biggest war this planet has ever seen, taking place over the relatively short space of about 3 and a half years of the Nazi's working at the height of their powers. The reason its highlighted is because it happened during possibly the darkest event in human history, World War Two.

Its one of the absolute cesspits of human achievement. It should be rammed home to every single person on the planet just how despicable and filthy humans can get, in order that something like it doesn't happen again.

Theres no real reason for denying the holocaust in WW2, unless you subscribe to ideals and thoughts that really aren't acceptable in a modern civilised society where everyone is equal.

People do it because they either have personal bigotry, choose to be deliberately ignorant out of political ideaology, or are simpley misinformed and uneducated and haven't thought it through.

If you encounter someone who denies it, then you have a few choices.

If its particularly offensive, and definitely anti-semitic, then hit alert and let the mods look at it.

Alternatively, put the person on ignore and magically their supreme ignorance goes away.

Finally, you can confront it - within the bounds of the T&C - and patiently explain to that person what you think is wrong with their argument and why, ATS style, with links and arguments and the power of your own convictions, denying ignorance all the way.

Originally posted by Sheridan
When the Jews will stop to make anti-christian and anti-muslim threads like as they did many and none of you will come with the "we're the chosen ones" blablabla (Personal note: Hahaha.) there will be less anti-semitism here at ATS.

I'll give you 1000 points for every thread started out by a person of jewish faith who is claiming they're the chosen ones.

I will also deduct 1,000 for every anti-semitic thread started for no reason other than to spew hatred.

care to guess how far into the negative you will be?

Originally posted by Sheridan
But while you're creating hate, don't count for love not in the world, not even here at ATS. Anti-semitism is the effect of the cause what you're creating. If you don't like the effect, don't give us the cause, what breeds the effect.

at least you're admitting to it. first step towards redemption



Hatred of a people is ignorant. Plain and simple. blaming a group of people for all your own problems is simply not facing reality.

be it black/white/jew/muslim etc, everyone in this group isn't at fault.
sure, there are bad eggs in every batch but that doesn't mean they're all bad.
sadly, it is ignorant, close minded thinking that will eventually lead to our destruction.

I just wanted to say I gave two stars to the previous two posts

Having been to Auschwitz I thoroughly recommend it for all Holocaust deniers!

Nefermore, as usual...

I find it dis-heartening that people can't differentiate between the Israeli nation / state and Jewish people.

reply to post by alien

Originally posted by alien
reply to post by jsobecky

 

Absolutely.

As stated in a previous reply some of my ancestors engaged in ritualistic cannibalism... ('Ritualistic' Cannibalism? Is that in any way better than "Hey, I'm hungry, how about you come over my place for dinner" run-of-the-mill cannibalism?

)

...but again the point is do you tar and feather every person within that 'group' due to the actions of some of their members. What is it that is abhorrent...the person/people or the action?


[edit on 5-10-2008 by alien]

I hear what you're saying, and certainly it is wrong to label a culture offensive if only practiced by a few. But then, it would not fall into the category of culture if it were only isolated incidents.

It is offensive if socially accepted as right, imo.

Originally posted by alien
If so - what race/culture are you? Is there history within your own people that I can highlight and point out the splinter in your own eye??

Ha! I'm a mutt! And I am like any other person in that regard; there have been a few black sheep. But their actions were never tolerated; the practitioners were outcasts.

As for the person/people or the action question, it has to be the person/people. Otherwise, the act is not committed, and remains harmless.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by jsobecky]

reply to post by Freeborn

Originally posted by Freeborn
I find it dis-heartening that people can't differentiate between the Israeli nation / state and Jewish people.

But isn't this the root of much anti-semitism? The fact that the Jewish people have their own homeland?

Would there be as much anti-semitism if the Jews were still wandering the Earth looking for their Promised Land?

Originally posted by jsobecky

Would there be as much anti-semitism if the Jews were still wandering the Earth looking for their Promised Land?

History suggests yes.

Short answer I know, sorry.

reply to post by asmeone2


EXACTLY. I happen to be Wiccan, and I have to hear people calling Wicca a satanic religion all day long because they don't understand it, but do I get all up in arms and call for this to not be tolerated? No, you can't start making excuses and protect certain classes of people. There are always going to be idiots out there who think Jews run the world or that they are secretly satanic or whatever might be the case.. and if by chance censoring of "anti-semetic" comments becomes a reality.. that will probably only add more fuel to the fire that feeds these idiots. I find it interesting that there are a lot of jewish people out there calling for this type of censorship against anti-semetic comments, but will happily make idiotic comments about other religions\ideologies that they don't understand which are on the same level or sometimes worse. Bottom line, we have freedom of speech in this country, and that gives people the right to be a moron. Get used to it and move on.

reply to post by jsobecky


Suggest you have a read of the history of Jews in England, historically a relatively tolerant country towards immigrants.

en.wikipedia.org...

A certain amount of anti-semitism is evident well before the establishment of an independant Israeli state!

Edit to add:

I also think that The Holocaust occurred before the establishment of Israeli, in fact it's possible to argue that if The Holocaust had never happened neither would have Israel?

[edit on 5/10/08 by Freeborn]

reply to post by Freeborn


Interesting read, and interesting points you made. You have broadened my knowledge and outlook. Thanks-



[edit on 5-10-2008 by jsobecky]

reply to post by Freeborn


Didn't the establishment of Israel just give those that hate the Jewish People a focal point?

The hate was always there, now they just have somewhere to focus it on.

reply to post by primamateria

If I wanted distracting, non confronting, sanitized, censored, spun, manipulated, digestable, entertaining, condescending, patronizing, homogeneous, numbing, agenda setting, polarizing, conforming, advertising, branded, ratings based content I'd turn on the TV. Instead I come to ATS

I am not singling you out, but this is something I have been worrying about



You think everything posted on ATS is Gospel truth?

We are in big trouble then,

I think these are dangerous times we are living in, hate America, hate the Jews, hate christians, the stage is being set for another holocaust, and the haters are setting it.

This forum is supposedly read by hundreds of thousand, now think how many people those hundred's of thousands speak to and reach every day,the number of people reached with true or false information becomes astronomical.


Be very careful ATS, that you don't wake up some day and find you have created the perfect forum/storm to perpetuate hatred for a certain religious, political, or national group, that will end up with catastrophic consequences.

This forum, now has, because of its strenght in numbers alone, the obligation to police itself and make sure no one is using it to spread disinformation.

How do you know it isn't being used for a tool?

non confronting, sanitized, censored, spun, manipulated, digestable, entertaining, condescending, patronizing, homogeneous, numbing, agenda setting, polarizing, conforming, advertising, branded, ratings based

LOL to top it all off all this can be found on the forum.





[edit on 093131p://bSunday2008 by Stormdancer777]

reply to post by darkangel831


Yes, Israel has become a focal point for anti-semitism.
Israel probably doesn't help itself.

But that does not explain the anti-semitic attitude shown to Jewish communities elsewhere throughout the world, both historically and at present.

I know someone who is firmly convinced that ALL of the world's ill's today are a direct result of some concerted Jewish conspiracy aimed at total world control.
He learnt this from his father, whose father had the same belief.
The same man is otherwise a well reasoned, balanced and educated man.

I would be interested in hearing opinions as to why anti-sematism is so prevalent throughout the world.

Originally posted by Freeborn
reply to post by darkangel831

 

Yes, Israel has become a focal point for anti-semitism.
Israel probably doesn't help itself.

But that does not explain the anti-semitic attitude shown to Jewish communities elsewhere throughout the world, both historically and at present.

I know someone who is firmly convinced that ALL of the world's ill's today are a direct result of some concerted Jewish conspiracy aimed at total world control.
He learnt this from his father, whose father had the same belief.
The same man is otherwise a well reasoned, balanced and educated man.

I would be interested in hearing opinions as to why anti-sematism is so prevalent throughout the world.

The spreading of information on the Internet, now in my opinion, has become the most dangerous weapon the earth has ever know, with the power to literally make or break who it pleases.

[edit on 093131p://bSunday2008 by Stormdancer777]

Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by asmeone2

 

EXACTLY. I happen to be Wiccan, and I have to hear people calling Wicca a satanic religion all day long because they don't understand it, but do I get all up in arms and call for this to not be tolerated?

Friend you should worry, this should not be tolerated.

You know they may come for the Jews first, but eventually they will come for you.



[edit on 093131p://bSunday2008 by Stormdancer777]

The dictum that truth always triumphs over persecution, is one of those pleasant falsehoods which men repeat after one another till they pass into commonplaces, but which all experience refutes. History teems with instances of truth put down by persecution. If not suppressed forever, it may be thrown back for centuries.

It is a piece of idle sentimentality that truth, merely as truth, has any inherent power denied to error, of prevailing against the dungeon and the stake.

Men are not more zealous for truth than they often are for error, and a sufficient application of legal or even of social penalties will generally succeed in stopping the propagation of either.

The real advantage which truth has, consists in this, that when an opinion is true,

it may be extinguished once, twice, or many times, but in the course of ages there will generally be found persons to rediscover it, until some one of its reappearances falls on a time when from favourable circumstances it escapes persecution until it has made such head as to withstand all subsequent attempts to suppress it.

The peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it.

If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error.

www.utm.edu...

I think much of the suspicion has sprung from the fact Orthodox Jews never integrate in society.

And this is not a problem just the Jews are facing, Arabs often are criticized for exactly the same reason.

If you set yourself aside from the cultural background you are living in, is it then any wonder that people who are looking for a visible scapegoat will turn to a segment of their society which has practically invented banking, dress so distinctly you can spot a member of their community a mile away and even have their own economy-within-the-economy ?

I don't think they are right in condemning an entire segment because of the bad apples. Otherwise, every Belgian would be branded a child molester (Dutroux), and every American a war-hungry loonie-tune.

But if you stiffle the discussion, rather then let reason prevail through arguments, you only make it so that the people with these beliefs can only express their view in Neo-Nazi sites.. Then, you get an inbreeding of idea's. no enlightenment, no swaying opinions, you just create a us against them climate, each sticking to their own sites, and then, one day, the hate gets out of hand and people suffer because of it.

If a poster comes with a baseless xenophobic rant it should be easy to 'debunk' his ravings. And if the post crosses that thin line between an opinion and slander, I'm sure the mods will make sure it gets removed, along with the poster if it was over the top.

Freedom of speech. people have died for the concept. and people have died because of the lack thereoff. never again, indeed.. so let's not turn ATS into a site that's patrolled not by mods but by the thought police, shall we ?

[edit on 5-10-2008 by Phatcat]

Originally posted by Crakeur

I'll give you 1000 points for every thread started out by a person of jewish faith who is claiming they're the chosen ones.

I'll send you a PM when this is going to happen again and when someone is offending the Christians or the Muslims without reason. I'll want my points.

I will also deduct 1,000 for every anti-semitic thread started for no reason other than to spew hatred.

There is always a reason. I never saw a single ATS thread to be written without a reason. But if someone doesn't like that someone is also pointing out the fault of his religion, that's not our problem. You know, when I read something regarding to Christians that a Jewish person is starting to blame them for their own problems, or better, when a Jewish person with large great Israeli avatar is starting to breed hate toward guardian angels in a thread (Because Zionists eliminated angels from their religion, but kept only the demons... guess one why.), you know many people are offended in this case. So, it's a two way road.

So next time, when someone is offending Christianity or guardian angels that is strongly part of the Christian and all the other religions, I'm also going to send you a PM, because it's hurting the feeling and the religions of many. But I believe in this case ATS would be a short living community if everyone would report every itsy-bitsy stuff what is hurting someone's intention.

Hatred of a people is ignorant. Plain and simple. blaming a group of people for all your own problems is simply not facing reality.

The Jewish people are blaming the entire world for their problem. So, please tell this to them and also vica-verse for the other groups. It's an endless loop, where no one knows who started it and no one knows who shot back first.

be it black/white/jew/muslim etc, everyone in this group isn't at fault.
sure, there are bad eggs in every batch but that doesn't mean they're all bad. sadly, it is ignorant, close minded thinking that will eventually lead to our destruction.

Again. Tell this to those ones, Zionists, whose are calling non-Jews as goyims and eager to create the Armageddon to see the great salvation of their kind. I believe you're watching just one side Crakeur. But you also should watch the other side too. The other side is resisting by some reason. If you know what the reason is, you'll be able to find the cure for it.

So, also try to imagine yourself to our side, please.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by Sheridan]

reply to post by Sheridan


it's a dark crystalline view you have there. I'll gladly pull the anti-semitic threads up for you and start deducting those points.

www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...
www.abovetopsecret.com...

5 threads from the first page of an ats search for the word jew in titles.

5000 points deducted in 3 seconds of work (don't worry, I'm going to deduct them)

that's without searching for jewish, judaism, israel, zionists etc

Originally posted by Crakeur
5 threads from the first page of an ats search for the word jew in titles.
5000 points deducted in 3 seconds of work (don't worry, I'm going to deduct them)
that's without searching for jewish, judaism, israel, zionists etc

Yes and at the same time if you pull up threads with the word "Muslim" in the title it will be equally bad. Pull up "Christians" and it will be half and half.

I personally have been involved in a number of threads that were apparently deemed politically incorrect, and I have noticed that facts are often censored by mods for being "off-topic" even though they DO relate to the topic (facts as in government statistics) while personal insults (i.e. you are ignorant! racist! hateful!) which I believe are a t&c violation are never discouraged by the same moderators.

Ignorance can be defined in many many ways, and defining ignorance by the current politically correct views of the day is not a good measure.

(For the record those threads did not involve Jews, I happen to be rather fond of Jews, I have socialized with many and worked for quite a few, very bright and eccentric individuals on average).

[edit on 5-10-2008 by Sonya610]