Hey thank you for the link/information...

Let's please keep this positive, ok?

We are all learning from one another here...

OT (gotta go to work!)

See all later tonight!

Originally posted by Old Man

That's what angers me......people are so willing to let teachers at school teach their own children that they are no more than animals.


Well.......my children are not animals. They are made in the image of God. That is what I believe, and I am entitled to believe it.....

Firstly how do you know what god looks like? And secondly what are we if not animals? How do humans differ from other animals (not meaning human traits but physiologically etc)? Do we not eat, drink, sleep, excrete, reproduce etc? Do we not have legs, feet, hands, head, eyes etc?

So please explain what your children are if not human animals?


G

Originally posted by OldThinker
This is the one claim that the Bible made about man's creation that can be scientifically verified and later confirmed. The verse…”So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them.” Genesis 1:27

How do OT? Thanks for the link to your topic. Lets see if I can't get up to some mischief.

How has it been verified and confirmed (scientifically) what god looks like or should I say gods as the previous verse states "Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness"

It was not always known that time had a beginning. Many cultures believed that the universe existed in cycles or was eternal. Yet, the very first verse of the Bible states, in simple terms, that both the universe and time did have a beginning. This is a fact that science has since verified with the concept of the Big Bang. Whether this belief originated or was unique to the Hebrews is not as important as the fact that it was the correct belief. For once again, the Bible and science are in perfect harmony. The verse…”In the Beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” Genesis 1:1

wasn't the beginning of Genesis stolen from the Enuma Elish (Babylonian creation epic) which probably came from the sumerians - like the flood myths etc?

There are other concepts…such as…What Holds the up the Earth? - 3000 years ago the Hindus recorded the earth was resting on the backs of several huge elephants. The elephants were resting on the back of a very large turtle that was swimming in a sea. Greek mythology claims that the god Atlas was holding the earth on his shoulders. The Bible says in Job 26:7 — "[God] hangeth the earth on nothing." What a remarkable statement of fact. The earth is suspended in space. Nothing is holding it up. Job wrote about the same time the Hindu Scripture was written. How did Job know this scientific fact?

Well that would depend on how you interpret the verses in Job, it could easily mean that the earth is suspended from nothing. Or if you interpret the Hebrew 'al' which has meanings such as 'upon', 'on', 'over' and 'above' then the earth could be suspended over nothing. I see nothing in this verse that could be interpreted as the earth being totally encompassed by nothing - which would have been easier for Job

Again- Flat Versus Round Earth - For thousands of years people believed the earth was flat. If one went too far, he would fall over the edge. This was taught in both Hindu and Buddhist scripture. In the 1500s, the first ship sailed around the world. This proved the earth was round. But the round earth was recorded in the Judeo-Christian Bible long before man discovered it in the 1500s. The prophet Isaiah (40:22) spoke of the "circle of the earth." Solomon wrote, "God set a compass [circle] upon the face of the deep." Proverbs 8:27. In our century, Arabs spoke of infidels being pushed over the edge into space. About 3,000 years ago, our Bible said the earth was round. This was not discovered until 500 years ago.

Again interpretation is paramount, these verses are vague in their meaning. Also there is no evidence that Job was written 3000 BP with most scholars reckoning about 2400 - 2500 BP for the version we have today. This puts it in the timescale of Pythagoras et al who were certain of the Earths sphericity.


G

Suppose your Bible is correct in some of it's 'scientific' information, what is so wrong about a little reinforcement? You can even pretend science is expanding on Biblical knowledge if you like.

As for us being animals, the only thing that really separates us from many species is our intelligence and ability to use it. Yes, we are animals, and yes we are 'special' animals.

I think some people need to separate their concept of an animal with the modern biological definition. We are certainly the best (and the worst if you want to think of it that way) the Earth has ever had.

I don't believe that God made us in his image, but I do believe that God allows the universe to exist and in a sense created everything.

I don't believe God had a personal hand in creating life, or even our solar system, but I do believe God is in everything, because God to me is existence.

The complexities and possibilities of the universe IS God in my opinion, and therefore there is the possibility for anything and everything to exist. Life is necessary to access all complexities and possibilities - therefore it is. Etcetera etcetera. Science is a means to measure these possiblities to better understand our environment.

Thats how I see it all anyway. I refuse to let men tell me what God should be; that is how religion is exploited for control.

[edit on 7-10-2008 by seenitall]

How is it that the Enuma Elish and the Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest known complete literary work - the Enuma Elish dating back at least 7,000 years - have the exact same stories found in the Bible?

The creation of man in a wondrous garden, the introduction of evil into a naive world, the great flood brought on by the wickedness of man are all in there.

So since we are talking about scientists and the Bible, let's look at Archaeologists, shall we? They too are considered scientist, although probably not in the same discipline the OP is referring to.

But for the sake of argument, give me a little latitude here, so we can see just how many scientists could be said to not "fear" the Bible at all.

In the Bible, the patriarchs first appear the journey of Abraham, who, the story tells us, led members of his tribe from the city of Ur, west towards the Mediterranean, to the "promised land" of Canaan, sometime between the 19th and 18th centuries B.C.E. Or so the story goes.

We don't really have any good archaeological evidence to support the Abraham story, and, there is much archaeological evidence to contradict it.

The land where Abraham supposedly settled, the southern highlands of Palestine (from Jerusalem south the the Valley of Beersheba) is very sparse in archaeological evidence from this period. It is clear from the archaeological record that its population was extremely sparse - no more than a few hundred people in the entire region, and the sole occupants of the area during this time were nomadic pastoralists, much like the Bedouin of the region today.

We know from clear archaeological evidence that the peoples known as the Phillistines never even entered the region until the 12th century B.C.E., and the "city of Gerar" in which Isaac, the son of Abraham, had his encounter with Abimelech, the "king of the Phillistines" (in Genesis 26:1) was in fact a tiny, insignificant rural village up until the 8th century B.C.E. It couldn't have been the capital of the regional king of a people who didn't yet exist!

We know from archaeological evidence that camels weren't domesticated until about the late second millennium B.C.E., and that they weren't widely used as beasts of burden until about 1000 B.C.E. - long after the Age of the Patriarchs. And then there's the problem of the cargo carried by the camels - "gum, balm and myrrh," which were products of Arabia - and trade with Arabia didn't begin until the era of Assyrian hegemony in the region, beginning in the 8th century B.C.E.

Another problem is Jacob's marriage with Leah and Rachel, and his relationship with his uncle, Laban, all of whom are described as being Arameans. This ethnic group does not appear in the archaeological record prior to 1100 B.C.E., and not a significant group until the 9th century B.C.E.

The fact is that with all that is known of Egyptian history from this time (since scholars can now read the records the ancient Egyptians with the ease of a modern newspaper), and the fact that the history of Egypt in this period is well documented, there is no evidence from the records of Egypt itself that the events of Exodus ever occurred. The reality is that if a series of plagues had been visited upon Egypt, thousands of slaves escaped in a mass runaway, and the army of the Pharaoh were swallowed up by the Red Sea, such events would doubtless have made it into the Egyptian documentary record. But the reality is that there isn't a single word describing any such events.

From about the beginning of the second millennium B.C.E., through about 1200 B.C.E., Egypt ruled the region known today as Palestine. How do we know this? We know it not only from Egyptian records themselves, which talk about tribute taken from the various towns and cities in Canaan, but from archaeological evidence within the region itself, which shows a number of settlements which were clearly Egyptian military outposts.

The story of the expulsion of the Hyksos is easily the closest parallel we have from either the Egyptian record or the archaeological record to the story of the Exodus as recorded in the Bible. There are problems, though. Besides the Exodus story line, the biggest problem is the dates: the Bible places the Exodus at about 1200 B.C.E., yet the story of the Hyksos culminates in 1570 B.C.E.

It is quite clear from the archaeological record, as well, that there never was a "wandering in the desert for 40 years," either. Extensive archaeological surveys of the Sinai desert have never shown any encampments dating from the time of the Exodus, either before, during or after the time of the Ramsean pharaohs. The Sinai Desert was literally dotted with Egyptian military outposts, and nowhere in the Sinai could the Hebrews have been more than a day's travel from one of them. It is inconceivable that they could have remained undetected in the Sinai for forty years

By the 12th century B.C.E., the Hebrews assumed an identity unique enough in the archaeological record to become discernible for the first time. There is little to go on - pottery shows an impoverished lifestyle, with little decoration and use other than as storage and cooking vessels. Yet one thing is clear - the bones of pigs become absent from the archaeological record. The prohibition on eating pork is therefore the oldest archaeologically supported feature of Jewish culture.

I could go on, but I think you have enough of the idea.

Since archeology clearly shows us that most, if not all of the Bible is revisionist history of myths and historical events that originate from either Mesopotamia or Egypt, it follows to reason that any "scientific" knowledge incorporated into the Bible should be credited to those cultures. Much credit also belongs to the Greek culture, if you wish, I can site some evidence for this.

I realize that you are still searching for some rebuttal to the bats and coneys issue I presented earlier, and since that will be a difficult one to deal with, I will give you all the time you need.

I would like to bring to mind that during the approximate same time as the book of Job, there was an incredible man in Alexandria, Eratosthenes, who managed to calculate the circumference of the earth, using a stick, to within 1% accuracy. This only goes to show that the knowledge that the earth was round had been common during the time, as were many other scientific facts.

Edit to add proper references, thx Clearskies

[edit on 10/7/08 by redhatty]

You know, you're right. My mistake. I need to correct the original post, the writing I should have referenced was the Enuma Elish which has the creation story. That's the one that is 7000 yrs old

The epic of Gilgamesh is SUPPOSEDLY the OLDEST written ANYTHING. Ever!

Originally posted by Clearskies
The epic of Gilgamesh is SUPPOSEDLY the OLDEST written ANYTHING. Ever!

The oldest COMPLETE writing. Not necessarily the oldest writing

Ats-ers, Great job today!!

OT back from work for a bit…and then to BBQ!

I did find some more Old Testament evidence of (somewhat) recent scientific discoveries…

Here’s some more data for internal discussion…

Let’s talk about SPACE, ok?

Specifically… Orion , Pleiades, and Arcturus

Remember the old story of Job…He’s the guy who had it all, was tested, endured…and ultimately came out smelling like a rose!

When he was going through the testing he asked the LORD some pointed questions, in his book, primarily chapter 28…if you have time please go and read, ok?

Here’s the questions…remember the Book of Job is very very old…maybe the oldest in the OT…it goes like this…”Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades, or loose the bands of Orion? Canst thou guide Arcturus with his sons?”

ORION? Huh? A fellow named Garrett P. Serviss, the noted astronomer, wrote about the bands of Orion in a book titled CURIOSITIES OF THE SKY.

Orion has an almost perfect straight line, a row of second-magnitude stars about equally spaced. Thru time, however, the two right-hand stars, Mintaka and Alnilam, will approach each other and form a naked-eye double; but the third, Alnitak, will drift away eastward so that the band will no longer exist.

One star is traveling in a certain direction at a certain speed, a second one is traveling in a different direction at a second speed, and the third one is going in a third direction and at a still different speed.
In reality, every star in Orion is traveling its ‘own’ course, independent of all the others. Thus, these stars that we see forming one of the bands of Orion are as an example like 3 boats out on the high seas that happen to be in line at the present moment, but will ultimately in the future be separated by thousands of miles of ocean. In fact, all these stars that at the present time constitute the constellation of Orion are bound for different countries, and all are journeying to different corners of the universe, so that the bands are being diminished and evident gone.

THE PLEIADES, huh? See how they are different! The seven stars of the Pleiades are in reality a grouping of 250 suns. Photographs now reveal that 250 blazing suns in this group are all traveling together in one common direction. Concerning this cluster, Isabel Lewis of the United States Naval Observatory tells us: “Astronomers have identified 250 stars as actual members of this group, all sharing in a common motion and drifting through space in the same direction.” Lewis also speaks of them as "journeying onward together through the immensity of space."

The Lick Observatory said of Dr. Robert J. Trumpler… “Over 25,000 individual measures of the Pleiades stars are now available, and their study led to the important discovery that the whole cluster is moving in a southeasterly direction. The Pleiades stars may thus be compared to a swarm of birds, flying together to a distant goal. This leaves no doubt that the Pleiades are not a temporary or accidental agglomeration of stars, but a system in which the stars are bound together by a close kinship.”

Without any reference whatsoever to the Book of Job, he announced to the world that these discoveries prove that the stars in the Pleiades are all bound together and are flying together like a flock of birds as they journey to their distant goal. Isn’t that exactly what God said to Job, way back in the day????
"Canst thou bind the sweet influences of Pleiades?" In other words, Canst thou keep them bound together so that they remain as a family of suns? You gotta admit, that’s pretty neat, at least, right?

INCREDIBLE! God's laws of cosmology are getting rid of the constellation Orion…evidentally and slowly….and…surprise, surprise…every last one of the 250 blazing suns in the Pleiades are ordained of God to orbit together in their symmetrical dancing! Whew…HE is awesome…and loves you more than you know…please re-consider Him…

ARCTURUS, huh? God asks…"Can you guide Arcturus with his sons?" Garrett P. Serviss wrote: “Arcturus, one of the greatest suns in the universe, is a runaway whose speed of flight is 257 miles per second. Arcturus, we have every reason to believe, possesses thousands of times the mass of our sun. Think of it! Our sun is traveling only 12 ½ miles a second, but Arcturus is traveling 257 miles a second. Think then of the prodigious momentum this motion implies.”
He also observes…”It could be turned into a new course by a close approach to a great sun, but it could only be stopped by collision head on with a body of enormous mass. Barring such accidents, it must, as far as we can see, keep on until it has traversed our stellar system, whence it may escape and pass out into space beyond to join perhaps one of those other island universes of which we have spoken.”

Scientist Charles Burckhalter, of the Chabot Observatory, said, “This high velocity places Arcturus in that very small class of stars that apparently are a law unto themselves. He is an outsider, a visitor, a stranger within the gates; to speak plainly, Arcturus is a runaway. Newton gives the velocity of a star under control as not more than 25 miles a second, and Arcturus is going 257 miles a second. Therefore, combined attraction of all the stars we know cannot stop him or even turn him in his path.”

Mr. Burckhalter said, “The study of the Book of Job and its comparison with the latest scientific discoveries has brought me to the matured conviction that the Bible is an inspired book and was written by the One who made the stars!” AWESOME!

TArcturus and his sons are runaways that seem to be out of orbit in our galaxy. Traveling at such incredible speeds, why don’t they crash? Ram with other suns or planets? Where are they going I wonder? Only God knows. They will not crash because He is leading them!

“SO WHAT OT?” Glad you asked…when things are going bad for you…and they will..eventually…this is God’s way…of loving you…so you will turn to Him…. He may say to you…..Can you cut the bands of Orion? No! But My Divine power will. Some day Orion will no longer exist. ATS-er, can you bind the 250 stars of the Pleiades together in their symmetry and not have a single one escape? Only I have this ability! Can you prevent the runaways — Arcturus and his sons — from colliding as they go sprinting out of the Milky Way? No, but I……AM…..!

Well that’s enough for now…looking forward to more great dialog guys!!!!

OT
Philippians 1:3 – check it out!