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“Did you know (many) Scientists are afraid of the Bible?”

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posted on Oct, 16 2008 @ 08:37 PM
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reply to post by redhatty
 


No, the oldthinker guy did not avoid or try to justify himself. I stumbled upon this blog and had the time to read the entire thing. From what I can tell he was very direct....this abovetpsercret is very intriging site, how do I sign up to become a member?

OLdthinker was straight to the point I guess he is a beliver in Jesus, as I am

Can not the wholw world read his writings? And who said what FIRST?

I have a question though, oldthinker, why are you doing this?




posted on Oct, 16 2008 @ 11:28 PM
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Originally posted by Anonymous ATS
reply to post by redhatty
 


No, the oldthinker guy did not avoid or try to justify himself. I stumbled upon this blog and had the time to read the entire thing. From what I can tell he was very direct....this abovetpsercret is very intriging site, how do I sign up to become a member?

OLdthinker was straight to the point I guess he is a beliver in Jesus, as I am

Can not the wholw world read his writings? And who said what FIRST?

I have a question though, oldthinker, why are you doing this?










Thank you for your post Anon ATS-er,

It is for sure that my ‘thread title’ is validated here…through all the hostility, etc…I do appreciate you helping the discussion…with some ‘balance’.

Great points, you made around my truthfulness and directness. I’m not ducking anyone…

To answer your question, OT is trying to spark some interest around faith and how some IGNORE the scripture’s wisdom…

Btw, to sign up there should be a ‘join ats’ link somewhere on the home page…

Again, appreciate your thoughts…and response

OT



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 07:50 AM
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Hey OT, sorry not to respond sooner....

I'm not sure what made me decide this, but I am just going to agree to disagree on this subject matter. The Bible does serve a purpose in comfort and guidance, regardless of truth. The fact remains neither you or myself could ever prove or disprove the Bible. The fact also remains it's a book written, and re-written, by man. Part of its appeal and splendor is it can be interpreted many different ways. I believe it is a good thing that people can find solace in it. I think to sum up my thoughts and what drives my thinking in one big sentence would be: Some of the things written in the Bible are obviously good and wholesome values that people should incorporate into their lives, whether they're a believer in the underlaying elements that make up what the Bible IS.

So I apologize for coming off as wishy washy, I meant no harm, no beef here, have a wonderful day!



posted on Oct, 17 2008 @ 08:22 AM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 


Oh I see, ok, oldthinker,

Well you have sprarked some interest. I do like the way you 'write' your biblical points in a dialog...it does make for interesting readings...I guess these blogs are like parables in a way.

Thanks for getting back with me



posted on Oct, 18 2008 @ 07:58 PM
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reply to post by ImaNutter
 




ImaNutter,

I read your post with a sense of refreshment. Yes, it is OK to agree to disagree on ATS. Thanks for being an example needed for more constructive dialog…

I heard this one time that, “none of us is as smart as all of us!”

Appreciate your helping get the thread atmosphere back on track…

OT



posted on Oct, 18 2008 @ 08:17 PM
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For those interested…See this link for some interesting truths, later validated by science…

www.ucg.org...


Earlier centuries saw little conflict between the Scriptures and science. It was common for scientists and churchmen alike to view the Bible and science as in complete agreement. If an apparent discrepancy came to light, the Bible was considered more trustworthy, but the two were widely accepted as harmonious.



TextBut the harmony that once existed between the Bible and the scientific community has largely dissolved. As biblical misinterpretations and assumptions—along with religion in general—have been discredited, people have increasingly turned almost exclusively to science and human reasoning for answers. As a result, people generally have much more confidence in science and scientific pronouncements—verified or not—than in God's Word.



TextA brief look at the world around us shows us that science has indeed been enthroned in our culture. Religion, in comparison, has been forcibly dethroned. A recent demographic study concluded that, of the 40 hours a week of free time the average American is said to have, a typical woman allots about 15 hours to television and only a single hour to religion. Among men the time devoted to religion is even less. Technology and entertainment have conspired to knock religion off its pedestal.




Where the usual approach in the past was to let the Bible take precedence over scientific discoveries, now the situation is reversed. "There developed in the nineteenth century what has been called 'scientism.' This holds that only science has the key to truth and that whatever is not scientific is false" (James Hitchcock, What Is Secular Humanism? 1982, p. 44). Today the typical academic will elevate a biology text or theory far above the Bible.


Such as…

1.Basic biblical solutions to human problems

2.Bible instruction far ahead of its time

3.Moses and Egyptian medicine

4. Basic sanitation instructions

5. A lesson from the Black Death

6. Death in Vienna

7. The benefits of sexual purity

8. Treatment of wounds

9. The power of a positive attitude

10. Bible instructions about diet

11. Doctors offer their view

12. Cultural taboos or divine revelation?

13. Health risk to human beings?

14. Scripture and science complement rather than conflict

15.When the Bible seems to disagree with science

= = = = = =


Enjoy the reading…

OT out (gonna watch the Red Sox game!)


[edit on 18-10-2008 by OldThinker]



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 02:02 PM
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To all thread posters...OT thanks you for the lively discussion you brought to the table...it looks like it probably has lived its course in the short term...

For those who disagreed with me...no hard feelings...it is my honor to bantor with you...

And thanks to the mods for your support...I love our site and am better for spending time here!

OT out!



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 07:26 PM
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Originally posted by OldThinker
For those interested…See this link for some interesting truths, later validated by science…

www.ucg.org...


Earlier centuries saw little conflict between the Scriptures and science. It was common for scientists and churchmen alike to view the Bible and science as in complete agreement. If an apparent discrepancy came to light, the Bible was considered more trustworthy, but the two were widely accepted as harmonious.
Thats mainly because if you disagreed with religion you were a heretic and killed or put under house arrest.



TextBut the harmony that once existed between the Bible and the scientific community has largely dissolved. As biblical misinterpretations and assumptions—along with religion in general—have been discredited, people have increasingly turned almost exclusively to science and human reasoning for answers. As a result, people generally have much more confidence in science and scientific pronouncements—verified or not—than in God's Word.
Thats mainly because it has been shown that science is more reliable than gods word (in whatever religious scripture)



TextA brief look at the world around us shows us that science has indeed been enthroned in our culture. Religion, in comparison, has been forcibly dethroned. A recent demographic study concluded that, of the 40 hours a week of free time the average American is said to have, a typical woman allots about 15 hours to television and only a single hour to religion. Among men the time devoted to religion is even less. Technology and entertainment have conspired to knock religion off its pedestal.
Just goes to show that even Americans are beginning to realize that religion is nothing but a motion that you go through on a Sunday morning. Welcome to the rest of the western world.




Where the usual approach in the past was to let the Bible take precedence over scientific discoveries, now the situation is reversed. "There developed in the nineteenth century what has been called 'scientism.' This holds that only science has the key to truth and that whatever is not scientific is false" (James Hitchcock, What Is Secular Humanism? 1982, p. 44). Today the typical academic will elevate a biology text or theory far above the Bible.


Such as…

1.Basic biblical solutions to human problems
Aren't just biblical solutions but human solutions, not the monopoly of the bible


2.Bible instruction far ahead of its time
LOL, stolen from older cultures and civilizations. As I said the bible does NOT have the monopoly on such matters


3.Moses and Egyptian medicine
Yes EGYPTIAN medicine not biblical medicine


4. Basic sanitation instructions
LOL again - these were practiced well before the Hebrews even decided to be Hebrews


5. A lesson from the Black Death
Would that be in any way connected to the way CHRISTIANS are stopping Africans from using contraceptives to stop HIV and AIDS


6. Death in Vienna
Theres death everywhere - whats so special about Vienna?


7. The benefits of sexual purity
NOT a biblical monopoly


8. Treatment of wounds
I think you will find that it was the muslims who were better a treating wounds but to go further back , there is evidence that primitive man knew well about wound treatment


9. The power of a positive attitude
Again NOT a biblical monopoly


10. Bible instructions about diet
What, eat fish on Fridays, don't eat unclean meats????


11. Doctors offer their view
Explain??


12. Cultural taboos or divine revelation?
Oh yes forceful conditioning throughout the ages and cultures i.e Spanish Inquisition etc


13. Health risk to human beings?
Explain??


14. Scripture and science complement rather than conflict
Sorry but scripture is years old nonsense whereas science reinvents itself if it is wrong


15.When the Bible seems to disagree with science
On what page would that be??? LOL

= = = = = =



Enjoy the reading…

OT out (gonna watch the Red Sox game!)


[edit on 18-10-2008 by OldThinker]
Who won???


G



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 07:30 PM
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reply to post by OldThinker
 




this is the simplest way to explain religion not going into the specifics

"cave man sees fire, he cannot explain it, he thinks about it , looks at what he knows, it is hot, it makes light, he doesn't know how so he proceeds to think, its MAGIC or the fire god. when the wind blows and the fire goes out, its evil spirits or magic or the wind god etc "

scientists aren't afraid of the bible, more like preachers are afraid of learning facts and science. science has proof the bible is practically a story book. no offence but no one is afraid of a few nursery rhymes



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 08:14 PM
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reply to post by shihulud
 



S, Hey man! Good to hear from you!!!

The Tampa Rays won...

They are playing the Phillies from Philadelphia...

Should be fun to watch!

OT

PS: Did you go to the link in the upper part of the post...the details for your questions are there...I'll go there tomorrow and focus on the questions you have and look for a response for you...

Great hearing from you!



posted on Oct, 21 2008 @ 08:24 PM
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Originally posted by The Last Raven
reply to post by OldThinker
 




this is the simplest way to explain religion not going into the specifics

"cave man sees fire, he cannot explain it, he thinks about it , looks at what he knows, it is hot, it makes light, he doesn't know how so he proceeds to think, its MAGIC or the fire god. when the wind blows and the fire goes out, its evil spirits or magic or the wind god etc "

scientists aren't afraid of the bible, more like preachers are afraid of learning facts and science. science has proof the bible is practically a story book. no offence but no one is afraid of a few nursery rhymes




Appreciate the post, but fail to agree…

I’ll stick with these guys below…!

OT

“Everyman's life is a fairy tale written by God's fingers!”
Hans Christian Anderson


“I cannot imagine how the clockwork of the universe can exist without a clockmaker.”
Voltaire


“I am sure that never was a people, who had more reason to acknowledge a Divine interposition in their affairs, than those of the United States; and I should be pained to believe that they have forgotten that agency, which was so often manifested during our Revolution, or that they failed to consider the omnipotence of that God who is alone able to protect them.”
George Washington

= = = =

Keep searching bro!



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 05:39 AM
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I hate getting in late on an already-long thread...So much reading & typing (not to mention looking up references & such) to do...It makes for long posts that I may have to split up. Plus I wind up editing & re-editing my own replies due to replies that I read after I've already written up my draft-responses.
Sigh!

Be that as it may, here goes...


Originally posted by Kryties
If it were to remain in General Conspiracy the Title should be changed to 'I believe that....' or 'In my opinion....'.

True...But as I found out the hard way years ago, once you've entered & posted with text in the "thread title" box, you can't change it: I think the Mods can move a thread, but I'm pretty sure only an Admin or Owner can actually change a thread title once it's posted. There's even a time limit on how long you have to edit the text in the main body of your posts too.

At any rate, there is some indication of a conspiracy coming out in the postings of this thread, albeit a religious conspiracy...That there's something about the Bible that scares scientists & may even cause "bible-haters" to come out of the woodwork. It's well-known that something that scares people can cause them to attack it...



Originally posted by king9072

Originally posted by Kryties
If it were to remain in General Conspiracy the Title should be changed to 'I believe that....' or 'In my opinion....'.


Great posts Kryties, I feel the exact same way. Bullsh*t like this clogs the forum and wastes everyones time. No matter how many *true* FACTS that we bring to the table, this idiot is still gonna keep dodging bullets and repeatedly quoting the bible... its ridiculous.

...And you've been more than willing to keep the BS going with your continual "contributions" to the thread. No one is holding a gun to your head to keep you here, ya' know...Forums are what's known as a "social contract," arbitrated under the T&C's of ATS. If you don't like the thread, then you can complain about T&C violations (assuming that there are any) or simply stop posting...It's your choice to participate or not.


Originally posted by karl 12
The bible is either man made or not-if folks beleive the latter then why don´t they engage in cold blooded homicide as instructed?

They do...
Holy Wars, Crusades, Inquisitions, Jihads, Ethnic Cleansing...Shall I go on?


I think there's a lot of people who think that the ancients during biblical times were stupid...They were ignorant of modern "technological terminology" to explain themselves, but they were quite smart & the whole core of developing into any kind of civilization requires first that the "ancestors" observe & contemplate the world they live in. Henges (like Stonehenge, for example) in Europe & other such structures found worldwide (the earliest known use of some type of "henge" to track seasonal star patterns was found at Nabta Playa, southwest of Egypt, dated a few hundred years before the First Dynasty--the earliest I've ever researched) predate any actual civilization, yet indicate that they were aware of the stars & the environment they lived in. Even the earliest hominids had to observe their environment, merely to find food & survive...How else do you think humanity has even lasted this long anyway?

It's also been determined, through archeological findings & modern experiments using ancient methods, that the ancients were capable of over-seas travel (probably drowning more often than not, but still capable of it
) & they had a good, practical knowledge of seasonal patterns, animal migrations & astronomical star-patterns.


Originally posted by asmeone2
And it begs the question, how do you even define "science?"

Well, science should always start with observation. Then comes contemplation, as in, "why does this happen that way?" Next comes experimentation based upon the observation & contemplation, so to prove or disprove the validity of the contemplation. This describes the "scientific process," but an actual science can be defined as any subject or topic that goes further than the first step along this process.


Originally posted by karl 12
The bible is either man made or not...

Oh yes, the Bible is man-made...The modern versions of the Old & New Testaments are based very firmly of the Dead Sea Scrolls: Entirely written by the hands of men. There is no doubt of that. In those times in history, pretty much every aspect of life revolved around one religion or another...In fact, if it weren't for some kind of religion (including the first known instances of Animism), there would have been little motive or drive for "scientific analysis" of the world we live in.


Originally posted by Kryties
The Bible has absolutely no PRIMARY source to account for it. All sources of the Bible are SECONDARY at best and therefore disclude the Bible as being historical fact.

As I've already indicated, the Dead Sea Scrolls are the primary source for the text in the modern Bible...As for the conspiracy of that, note that the control over all of the study on those scrolls was & still is in the hands of the Rockefeller Institute. Make of that what you will...

Just because you think the Bible entirely fact, don't discount the whole thing: Don't throw out the baby with the bathwater, dude!



Originally posted by Copernicus
I feel very strongly that its a prison for your mind. Im not a scientist however.

No, these people weren't dumb, they just had to "improvise" to explain much of the knowledge they had. IMO, organized religion is to blame for much of the actual insanity that people have inflicted upon each other, but they did write about actual, factual knowledge in other cases. It's when religion got big & organized is when the religion becomes the prison. The real crux of formulating that prison is when the "Church Hierarchy" tried to combine the ancient knowledge with social engineering. By separating the social engineering from the real knowledge, you can learn a lot. In short, I have Faith (in the Laws of Nature), but it's not the same as Faith in "the Church."


Originally posted by asmeone2
As far as Moses and the astonamy goes--remember that even Christians know that he spent his early years living as a prince of Egypt. Think how fine-tuned the Egyptian knowledge of the stars were! I am no Egyptologist but I'd reckon if they could observe the stars in such detail they could make similar observations about their own world. Any science that Moses recorded likely came from his Egyptian education.

And Moses probably "inserted" a lot of already-old Egyptian customs into the early Hebrew beliefs as well (He "contributed" a lot more than merely Ten Commandments!).

Even though the Classical Greeks are attributed to influencing the basis of our modern western-world society, what is not readily known is that those very same Classical Greeks were heavily influenced by the already-ancient Egyptians. Heck, there's even archeological evidence that Egypt was trading with Mesopotamia as early as 3250 BC.


Originally posted by asmeone2
reply to post by OldThinker
 

I would love it if you had more specific scientific examples from the Bible, so far no one I know has had any, I'm of course not discrediting your examples, just saying that they are very obvious ones.

Well, wouldn't you think that the first observations made would be the first ones "published" (written down)?

Of course they never had access to electron microscopes & such, so the only observations that they would write down first would be the most obvious ones! In anything you try to accomplish, you have to start at the beginning, wouldn't you? Well, the beginning was Genesis.
Most people who denigrate what's written in the Bible (or most other ancient texts, religious or not) is there's a big problem in translation into the modern language...That's the primary reason why there's so many differing versions of the Bible today. If you can't get past that, you'll never understand the intent of what the ancients were trying to say. That's a common problem with both religion & science.



Originally posted by Copernicus
Religion scares me because its followers doesnt question the book since its part of the religion to not question it.

Sometimes the "Scientific Community" scares me...As some of those scientists can get just as hide-bound & dogmatic as any religious fanatic. It stems from the human tendency for not questioning what they think about something, not the thing itself that's being looked at. A real scientist would be willing to question anything he observes, as well as questioning his own viewpoint about it...Without that, the scientist just becomes a different kind of religious fanatic, with "science" substituting for a religion.

In both religion & science (as well as any other aspect of life itself), moderation, reason (with as much diversity as you can handle with your sources of knowledge--how many "scientists" dismiss the potential knowledge from "unapproved" branches, like Parapsychology), and the ability to question oneself (any scientist that takes their theories as being fact, then they're bound into their own preconceptions & won't learn anything else) as well as questioning everything else should be the largest factors in how people approach life. One who never asks questions will never learn the answers! Both religion & science are guilty of that..

-------------Continued Below--------



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 05:41 AM
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------------Continued From Above----------

For example, if everyone had the capacity to govern their own actions so that they had no need to harm other people or steal/damage the property of others, would this world even need any organized government? If people would realize that only they themselves are responsible for their own actions, then there would be no need to "organize" government or religion to enforce personal responsibilities.


Originally posted by OldThinker
Remember the old story of Job…He’s the guy who had it all, was tested, endured…and ultimately came out smelling like a rose!

Speaking of "testing," I found myself amused by Lot's story after he & his family fled Sodom for the hills above the Dead Sea: Since his daughters had no eligible husbands, they got him smashed & seduced him so that they could have children to care for them in their old age. I'll bet that made "family introductions" to other people rather interesting & a "test" of courage in a social situation.

Either Moab or Ben-Ammi (the sons of Lot's daughters), when introducing Job to someone else: "This is my grandfather, also my father, my uncle, and his own father-in-law."

Response: "Hmmm. Is that why they call him "odd Lot?"



Originally posted by Pockets
Sorry but I will be doing no research into the bible or any religious rubbish

To quote a man that's evidently wiser than you:
"Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn." -- Ben Franklin

As such, you obviously have nothing to actually contribute to this discussion except insults & dismissive statements...Even scientists should never be dismissive (skeptical, yes, but never dismissive).


Originally posted by riggs2099
Gee...see what happens when you let just anyone in..lol. The bible is a bunch of BS written by men to control the feable minded.

That's actually a result of the Religious Hierarchy in big "organized religion"...After all, they're to ones who control what gets printed & what does not. They left out a lot. They translate & re-translate so much that it's difficult to get to the real intentions of the original writers. This is something that must also be kept in mind: These were the people who sought to establish social control, far more than the original authors of the Dead Sea Scrolls intended. It's the people you should blame for the manipulation, not the book itself.


Originally posted by thematrix
Ptolemy (aka the greeks) theorized a spherical earth in AD 140, his ideas were rejected by the church and it was called herecy.

You know who the Ptolomies were, right? Yes, they were Greek in lineage, but they were the descendants of some of Alexander the Great's generals who stayed behind to continue the rule of Egypt. They adopted Egyptian customs, Egyptian lifestyles & ...let's not forget...Egyptian knowledge & religion...as they're own.

Remember that I've already mentioned how much Greek culture was influenced by the Egyptians...


In short, I believe that the writings in the Bible (& other ancient non-religious texts) were actually the core-basis of modern scientific thought...After all, what branch of science even exists today that wasn't based upon humanity's observation & study of the Natural World & our own place within those Laws? After all, wouldn't such study of the Laws of Nature be the first place to start learning? As a very young kid, didn't you ever start taking a good close look at bugs & plants & rainbows & stars? Doesn't that constitute being enough of a "science" for you? Did you have a sense of awe & wonder? Doesn't that sense of awe & wonder of Nature constitute being a religion?


Originally posted by sir_chancealot
What's funny is how so many "scientists" forget their history. Science got it's start because the first scientists assumed that the universe was an orderly place, with natural laws, because God is an orderly entity that set down natural laws.
--------
The greatest scientists of all time were believers.

True...In at least this one example:
"I shall never believe that God plays dice with the world." -- Albert Einstein
"All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree." -- Albert Einstein
This is why anyone who limits themselves from any potential source of knowledge will never learn anything new...Never actually finding true enlightenment.


Originally posted by redhatty
How is it that the Enuma Elish and the Epic of Gilgamesh, the oldest known complete literary work - the Enuma Elish dating back at least 7,000 years - have the exact same stories found in the Bible?

Maybe because the original Hebrew religion (Judaism) that forms the basis of the Old Testament originated in Mesopotamian region, the same place where the Gilgamesh epics came from?



Originally posted by redhatty
The fact is that with all that is known of Egyptian history from this time (since scholars can now read the records the ancient Egyptians with the ease of a modern newspaper)

Actually, that's not true...There is much hieroglyphic writing that is still unreadable. It wasn't even understood at all until the discovery of the Rosetta Stone & even then, the Egyptian passages on it were not hieroglyphic, they were Demotic.


Originally posted by shihulud
Just look at the pyramids and other such ancient monuments like the trilithon at Baalbeck (note the name Baal), we in the modern age STILL cannot figure out how these structures were erected.

Yes we do know how they were constructed. Various groups of scientific-minded people, in conjunction with archeologists, have figure them out...Even using the technology-level of their tools & other resources of those times.

We may not know precise methods, such as how the Egyptians configured the ramps to haul up the stone blocks, but we know that they used levering-equipment, both sand & wood to form the ramps, use of logs (rollers) to move stone around (because wheels would have sunken into the sand), cutting stone with the use of copper tools (with help from fire & water treatments to help split the stone)...All in all, we may not know the exact engineering details they used, but we know that the Egyptians had the resources & motivation to build them. It's just that it would be too expensive & labor intensive to duplicate those feats, even with modern technology...In short, the motivation is gone. Yes, I'm something of an Egyptologist...Not "professionally," but studied pretty in-depth.

Also, as I've already stated, the Dead Sea Scrolls were the basis of the modern Bible: The book, "The Mystery & Meaning of the Dead Sea Scrolls" by Hershell Shanks gets into a lot more detail on the conditions & events that made the discovery & study of the Scrolls so difficult. There's no telling how much of those Scrolls were lost to the wear & tear of time & the elements (they were not in well-preserved condition), they were scattered all over the west-Dead Sea region, there was (& still is) competition over the discoveries of the Scrolls with the locals (how can we know whether or not they've all been found?) & the Church had (& still has) control over what does & does not get published. Not only that, the original Scrolls that were found are really only copies, transcribed repeatedly by the religious scribes (as part of their "education" in the scriptures themselves & as an act of preservation). Also, the original authors were a variety of men who lived in different time periods among different generations of the families.

Now considering all of these conditions, it would be difficult to proscribe certain "dates" to those writings, as they were scattered by both generations of family, differing authors & loss of texts due to the corrosion of time.

The original authors could not be taken literally, word-by-word because they were trying to describe concepts for which they had no real "technical" language...So too, most of the people they tried to teach with their writings were illiterate & the concepts they set forth had to make heavy use of parables, metaphors & even "turns of phrase" or even "plays on words" all within the actual context of their language, without trying to pick specific words that no one else would understand...This is why, especially after so many translations & re-translations, everything seems so vague to the more modern mind.

This is why a person who takes the Bible literally, word-for-word, picking it apart in minute detail has so much trouble understanding it...It was intended to be figurative, not literal, as such it must be read for the "spirit" of the writings, seeking the concepts & intent, rather than seeking absolute accuracy. The Bible speaks of overall concepts while the sciences look only at the details...As such, there's a lot of "failing to see the forest because of the trees" going on.

---------Continued Below----------



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 05:43 AM
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----------Continued From Above---------

reply to post by Pauligirl
 

Ah-ha! Finally we get to the crux of religion...or government...or science...or whatever. What some people recognize as the "divine spark within us all," others call it our "individual consciousness"...The ability to think, reason & govern how we treat other people, it still comes down to the same thing--Both sides recognize that we humans have a capacity beyond the mere instinctive action/reaction responses of the animal kingdoms. It's what gives us the capacity to learn & contemplate our world & its Natural Laws, instead of merely reacting to how they manifest in our environment. It's the capacity to empathize with our fellow human beings & seek to redress the pain of others...The combination and balance between Reason & Altruism!


Originally posted by redhatty
Be good to one another and do no intentional harm.
Works for me

...And if you cause accidental harm, at least hold yourself accountable for it...
In essence, "Your freedom ends where my nose begins" & "It's impossible to not make mistakes, so just pay for them & learn from them."



Originally posted by thegrayone
So, are scientist afraid of the bible? YES... I know I am, because the bible has been killing, manipulating, controlling and holding people back to reach their true potential.

The Bible has done nothing of the kind...Only other men using the Bible to manipulate other people. A book can't do those things, only people can. This is where I make the distinction between the religion & the organized religion. Those scientists embrace only their own fear & they themselves focus on a little book (instead of the true source) as the cause of that fear.

The whole thing I have against organized religions (& governments too, for that matter) is that they seek to manipulate our best human qualities into a system to control us. I'm now going to say pretty much the same thing two different ways:
"If you can't find that part of God in your heart that He gave to you, then you certainly won't find Him in a Church."
"Since governments can't rule long without the consent of the governed, as stated in the Declaration of Independence, then a government that relies on deception will not stand."
Same thing spoken differently...One religious, the other secular. In essence, the Bible (in various versions) indicate that we "came form the earth," so I take that to mean that the Creator made the Earth & let Mother Nature (so to speak) give birth to us. We are a part of Nature & Nature's Laws! That sounds a lot like Darwin's Theory of Evolution to me!


Originally posted by thegrayone
Speaking about human sacrifice thing, just how you put it, You do know how Christianity came to be,right? How many people they killed, or have to be sacrificed, to impose its religion and god,right? How many books they burned so the other truth wouldn't be known,right? Christianity had no regards nor respect for human life if they didn't believe the same thing. So, your bible, religion is based on human blood, built on human blood; and became so powerful thanks to human blood...I call that HUMAN SACRIFICE as well.

This is where I see a lot of confusion between what a religion says & how the manipulators among mankind twist it to perform evil against other people...It's not the religion itself that does evil, it's the "organization of control" over worshipers that do that. Not just Christianity but pretty much all religions have blood in their history, but that's caused by those who seek power & control, using the religion as an excuse to "exercise" their control.

The Crusaders during the Holy Wars were just as guilty of sin as the "terrorist" bomber who slaughters at will...Neither one is right, but they both do it as an extreme action for their religion: Any one of them at any time could have simply refused to commit murder, Church Order or not. Religion is their excuse, not the cause. Those who get past that truth will see the real meaning in that phrase you used, "Hate the sin but not the sinner." That "sinner" was blindly following the words of another human being to commit such atrocity, the words of the religion didn't do the killing...The blame falls on other human beings that twist the words & their personal meanings to manipulate others.

In the older days, the threat of Excommunication from the Church was a serious problem...But that's because most people were illiterate & didn't know what the Words are or what they meant: This was a big advantage to those manipulators who found their way into the Church Hierarchy. However, literacy is now much more widespread & people in general realize that we don't need other human beings (priests, rabbis, whatever) for us to learn the Word anymore. In short, people are now coming to recognize that "spark of divinity within themselves," so to speak, realizing that there's no need for "intermediaries" between God & the individual.

You know I speak the truth, because you have also stated that you think of yourself as a "good person," feel joy with sharing good times & bad with your loved ones & feel good about exercising your own altruism...Even though you decry religion & all scriptures, you've already seen that "spark of divinity" within yourself.

This is not to say that I, you or anyone else should take the Bible as the be-all/end-all of all knowledge...I don't think anyone here has said that they do! But there is still knowledge of significance within the Bible & you can learn from that as much as you could a good textbook at school or the library. I think the only thing that anyone here has said is to "not take the Bible off your reading table." I haven't seen anyone trying to "convert" you or anyone else.

The key is this: No one should limit themselves to any one potential source for knowledge of themselves & the world we all live in. Those who blindly follow a religion, government, scientific dogma, any system of belief whatsoever, without using reason & contemplating their thoughts, are no less than slaves to whatever belief system they follow: This is how Churches/Governments manipulate people into obedience. But those who recognize the good in all belief systems & are watchful & wary for those others who seek to manipulate those systems is the ones who are truly free. In short, you're right in your own way but seem stuck on arguing/attacking the semantics of it with the "other side." I think the term "Devil's Advocate" applies here...



Originally posted by thegrayone
If I have offended your god ( I don't think that is possible because he/she doesn't exist) I apologize as well.

I know you were saying this to someone else, but as for myself, I take no offense:
"It does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. -- Thomas Jefferson
BTW, Thomas Jefferson was not Christian...He was Epicurian.



Originally posted by OldThinker
Why do churches need so much money when their purpose is only to spread the word of God? Unless it's not their purpose? Man I know of hundreds of churches even in American just getting by…

Me too...for a specific example, in my old hometown (not where I live now), the pastor that married my wife & I had to rent a conference room at the local "Y" 7 also worked as a regular "stocking boy" (even though he must have been in his mid-to-late 50's) at a local grocery store...That was a bit over 9 years ago, before the current "financial crisis" going on.

It's not wise to stereotype everything in any category...Even science can come up with "exceptions to every rule."

reply to post by king9072
 

I just don't get you at all...This is a thread about how how the Bible contains sciences that were "rediscovered" only (relatively) recently & how scientists can be scared of how religion looks at scientific work. You ask him for specific points from the Bible to show how they mesh with modern science (he supplies you with quotes from scientists too) & he replies with specific quotes from the Bible to do that very thing...For which you mock him (& the quoted scientists too!) for.
You also make a number of very valid points on how scientists could actually fear the contents of the Bible (even though it's really the Church Hierarchy of Organized Manipulation that really causes that fear) & he agrees with your postings...And you insult him for that too.
Where is your head, dude?



Originally posted by uffty
Humankind can never be one, as long as there are religions, which were created for us to never be united as one brotherhood of human beings, loving and helping each other. It was all the purpose. The romans never knew what they could do when they wrote the new testament, but we know that the Vatican did to this...totally mind controlled people.

Ah, exactly one of the very same points I've been making here...It's the organized part of religion that's done this & yes, they did "brainwash" far too many people.

------------Concluded Below-----------



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 05:44 AM
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-----------Concluded From Above-----------

However, I also see evidence that more & more people are waking up & beginning to see more in common with each other than we did in times past...I attribute that to the increase in the rate of literacy over the past couple of centuries & more evidence of it today, now that the "common people" have access to worldwide communication between each other without the structure of control interfering. With the rise of education & communication, I've seen more in common with various religions than people have in the past & we're coming to know more about our commonality as the human species. People like us (on the internet) have pretty much "awakened" to our common truth & have started to see the lies & deception that Church & Governments thrive upon...We're still in a minority right now, but the numbers grow by the day.

What I see is that the Book of Revelations is gearing up for the worldwide "rule of the Beast" (aka: antichrist; the organization of manipulation itself). Since the numbers of "awakened" are still too small to stop it, it seems to me that the Beast will come to rule for a time...But even so, the Book of Revelations does state that the Beast will be overcome. What I also see is that, as the number of "awakened" is increasing, this foreshadows the eventual fall of the Beast...Our cumulative knowledge of the nature of these chains of deception are being thrown off & as this knowledge is gained & spreads, it can never be taken away.
"If a man empties his purse into his head, no man can take it away from him. An investment in knowledge always pays the best interest." -- Benjamin Franklin
"It is error alone which needs the support of government. Truth can stand by itself." -- Thomas Jefferson
"Educate and inform the whole mass of the people... They are the only sure reliance for the preservation of our liberty." -- Thomas Jefferson

Our very own history, the rise & fall of oppressive nation-states down through history, shows us this. History is cyclical, primarily because of those Manipulators, but for the first time in history there's an X-Factor at work now that didn't exist before: Commonly-shared knowledge of the nature of these manipulators & our own common humanity (through relationships) has been spread throughout the world by forums like this on the 'net!

I don't feel that you, uffty, have any need whatsoever to apologize for the actions taken by your ancestors down through history (I don't know enough about my own ancestors to say whether or not they participated in the deception or not). I realize that you're aware of what they did so long ago (& still try to keep doing now), but as long as you yourself are not personally responsible, then your apology isn't needed...I think that just your offer of an apology indicates that you're not one of "them." But I do give you credit for offering it on behalf of those others: It sounds to me that you have a good heart.


Originally posted by OldThinker

Where the usual approach in the past was to let the Bible take precedence over scientific discoveries, now the situation is reversed. "There developed in the nineteenth century what has been called 'scientism.' This holds that only science has the key to truth and that whatever is not scientific is false" (James Hitchcock, What Is Secular Humanism? 1982, p. 44). Today the typical academic will elevate a biology text or theory far above the Bible.

Yeah, I've seen this happening in my studies of history...The Manipulators in humanity have pushed for this intentionally, I think. The reason for this is that they need people who are "spiritually devoid" in order to make their "mind control games" more efficient & I've seen how this has stagnated our overall "social evolution" to recognize & learn how much we all have in common with each other. I've seen how mass communication & personal communication has gone worldwide & that people are learning...Social growth is expanding, despite the Manipulators' efforts to stifle it down through the centuries. As people begin to shake of the "organized control structures" from all three of religion, government & the monolithic banking institutions, that their house of cards (built from deception) is shaking in the breeze & that breeze is picking up speed.
(Oh, if you want to see my own general take on historical studies, check out Future Shock to see how those three "power groups" have been the Manipulators in history)

I've heard some people (scientists included) that homo sapiens-sapiens represents the "chief product of evolution," but I disagree...As long as we still survive, we will continue to evolve. At this point, we're beginning to evolve socially & the Old World Order (misnamed today as the New World Order, because they've pretty much always been a threat to human growth) that's stifled it all this time will fall by the wayside, just as the dinosaur was cut off from further evolution. We will either learn to take personal responsibility for ourselves or we'll wind up committing genocide...Yet, I know that some will survive as long as the Earth itself exists, so we will have learned from our mistakes in history & press forward from there.
"I like the dreams of the future better than the history of the past." -- Thomas Jefferson
"I have no fear that the result of our experiment will be that men may be trusted to govern themselves without a master." -- Thomas Jefferson
Remember that the Laws of Nature as Set Forth by the Creator were firmly in the minds of the Founding Forefathers when the Constitution & Bill of Rights were written!


Originally posted by shihulud
Who won???

Still don't get it yet, do you? This is a discussion about comparisons between religion & science & the social friction between the two, not to engender ignorance by "winning" one side over the other.

And about your signature: "If we are all God's children - whats so special about Jesus?"
I think that Jesus would represent the religion's "eldest" (more accurately, the most mature) son of the family.


Free your mind & your @$$ will follow!



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 05:06 PM
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reply to post by MidnightDStroyer
 


MDS,

Wow!!!

Where can I start?

Your (multiple) posts, show an intense scutiny into human nature...and balanced searching....

OT doubts the 'naysayers' will respond...

I have tried to reply in a balanced, measured, response to each of them, on an individual basis, throughout this thread...as all can read!

Your perspective and THOUGHTFUL reply is...

Intellectually based...

Sound in logic...

Wonderfully written...

Unargue-able...

And, just down-right....right...

OT will be watching!!

Skeptics, might want to start U2U-ing each other AGAIN...for your unified front...



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 05:14 PM
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reply to post by MidnightDStroyer
 


MDS,

I agree, the ORGANIZED version can lead towards control...

That's why OT is NOT religious...heck, there's a new 'religion' started every week!

To me, its about getting to know that MATURE example of god visualized...'I' call him Jesus...

he's my best friend...

and the one who is in fox holes...

ready...

willing...

able...

to make himself known...

for those truely SEEKING!

OT
II Corinthians 4:4 is still true, no matter if we acknowledge or not.

Thank you MidnightDStroyer for the time you dedicated here...ur respected!




posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 05:33 PM
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Originally posted by uffty


Just my oponion. Sorry for bad english. I am not a native english speaker.
America needs to wake up real soon about these subjects. Remember, Europeans have all set it up for what you really think is an "religion"....it is the truth.




uffty, no worries on your english...you did great.

Please study the history of America, ok?

We did this thing...for religious FREEDOM!

We are doing our best to get away from State-Sponsored religion!

It is ALL about a PERSONAL relationship now...

Thoughts??


Welcome to ATS!



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 05:42 PM
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Originally posted by Pockets
It's not that they or I fear the bible, it's the fact that these people know that it's a load of rubbish, total lies to control the dumb people


Pockets, are you out there?

OT wants to know...

How does such a short post get all those stars?

You must have quite a following...

The Bible is 'rubbish'??

Leaders are here to 'CONTROL'?

'Dumb People'? Who would that be? Where are you from?

Can you discuss a 'debated topic' on an intellectual way?

I believe you can...would you support my hope?

OT out



posted on Oct, 22 2008 @ 09:05 PM
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Originally posted by MidnightDStroyer
------------Continued From Above----------


Originally posted by shihulud
Just look at the pyramids and other such ancient monuments like the trilithon at Baalbeck (note the name Baal), we in the modern age STILL cannot figure out how these structures were erected.

Yes we do know how they were constructed. Various groups of scientific-minded people, in conjunction with archeologists, have figure them out...Even using the technology-level of their tools & other resources of those times.

We may not know precise methods, such as how the Egyptians configured the ramps to haul up the stone blocks, but we know that they used levering-equipment, both sand & wood to form the ramps, use of logs (rollers) to move stone around (because wheels would have sunken into the sand), cutting stone with the use of copper tools (with help from fire & water treatments to help split the stone)...All in all, we may not know the exact engineering details they used, but we know that the Egyptians had the resources & motivation to build them. It's just that it would be too expensive & labor intensive to duplicate those feats, even with modern technology...In short, the motivation is gone. Yes, I'm something of an Egyptologist...Not "professionally," but studied pretty in-depth.
So what your saying is that you basically have no clue how the Egyptians build the pyramids. While I agree that ramps and the like were most likely involved there are mysterious qualities to the pyramids etc that defy conventional theory. Check Here to see what I mean. Also Baalbeck with its three 1000 tonne blocks of stone quarried and placed neatly on top of each other (care to explain that away with ramps and levering equipment?)





Originally posted by shihulud
Who won???

Still don't get it yet, do you? This is a discussion about comparisons between religion & science & the social friction between the two, not to engender ignorance by "winning" one side over the other.

And about your signature: "If we are all God's children - whats so special about Jesus?"
I think that Jesus would represent the religion's "eldest" (more accurately, the most mature) son of the family.


Free your mind & your @$$ will follow!
No I think it is you that doesn't get it - I was asking OT who won the baseball. Oh and about my sig I was being sarcastic.


Nice posts all the same, quite a bit of info.

G




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