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posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 07:16 AM
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Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by Mister E
Which is ironic as it was the American government that supported the Islamic revolution and the installation of the current government that it wants to get rid of. Same applies for mr Hussain. Mad.


Uhhh...I don't think the US government supported that at ALL. They had a deal with the Shah, after he was kicked out (1950's?) the CIA arranged for him to become the leader once again in exchange for decades of oil rights.

The US gov was not thrilled when the Shah was overthrown, he was our boy, but after it happened they had to pretend they were okay (until things went bad).

[edit on 10-10-2008 by Sonya610]


OK cheers I dont mind being corrected at all.




posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 07:20 AM
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Here's a post I made on the history of Morocco, it's also very interesting. Just incase your interested.

Originally posted by _Phoenix_

I'm sorry but it's human nature, London for example is already a multi cultral society and has been for many years, and it's impossible to stop that. Myself I love London just for this very fact. The different people and no seperation.

Wether you agree or disagee with this, it can't really change this fact sorry. We can only change the future. But for those non white people who are BORN here they have been here just as long as you white people have. It belongs to them just as much, because this country is all they know.

What else can I say, it's just the way it is.



And that Morocco comment, well Morocco "has" been through many different culture changes, so has most countries.

If you don't mind let me tell you, Morocco has very interesting history.

The Berbers.
Berber Morocco
Morocco has been inhabited since Neolithic times at least since 8000 BC by people known as the Amazigh people, referred to as Berbers

At the time of the roman empire, the romans used Morocco as a strategic region
when the romans left in the 5th Century the region got took over by the
the Vandals, Visigoths, and then Byzantine Greeks rather quickly.
Many of the berbers lived in the mountains, and were not effected much by all this.

Now In the seventh century, the berbers still lived in Morocco, but this is when the arabs came to Morocco and lived there, when they came they influenced the berbers, and they bought their customs and culture with them. This created a new culture, a mix of the old culture and the new.
Now it became a country mixed with berber and arab.

From the 8th Century to the 11th and on there were a few civil wars and influences from such power as the Idrisid Dynasty(arab settlers) who established Fes as capital of Morocco. After a while the arab settlers lost political control, and the berber dynasty gained control of power and goverment over the country and it continiued, but this was the beginning, eventually The Almoravids(Berber 11th century), the Almohads(Berber 12 century), then the Marinid( Ifriqiya 15th century) and finally the Saadi dynasties(Arab 15-16th century) all took control of Morocco or parts of morocco and influenced the culture etc.

After the Saadi Dynasties, the Arab Alaouite Dynasty eventually gained control. At the time Morocco was facing aggression from Spain and The Ottoman Empire(turkish). But the Alaouites Dynasty succeded in keeping their position and controll and they remained quite wealthy. In 1684, they took the city Tangier, which by the way was taken control by the portuguese before that and later was given to Charles II of England. When the english were forced out. The English decided to destroy the town and its port facilities prior to their departure in 1684.

There were other spanish influences, african, black Moroccans and others etc but I'll just carry on.
Also I'll just add that Morocco was home to more Jews than any other Muslim country in the world. The Jewish community of Morocco, which dates back more than 2,000 years, has experienced various waves of both tolerance and discrimination.

Now on to the barbary Pirates! From the time of the Crusades until the early 19th century in north Africa. There were powerful and dangerous pirates!

They captured around over 1 Million europeans from england, spain, italy, france etc etc and made them into slaves.

These attacks when capturing the europeans caused France, England, and Spain to each lose thousands of ships, and long stretches of coast in Spain and Italy were almost completely abandoned by the people. Pirate raids stop people wanting to settle along the coast until the 19th century.

From 1609 to 1616, England lost 466 merchant ships to Barbary pirates. In the 19th century, Latterly American ships were attacked. The babrbary pirates also made ships pay licence tax for safe travel. One American slave reported that the Algerians had enslaved 130 American seamen in the Mediterranean and Atlantic from 1785 to 1793.
For more info.
en.wikipedia.org...

In 1777 Morocco was actually the "first" nation to recognize the fledgling United States as an independent nation!
In the beginning of the American Revolution, American merchant ships were attacked by the Barbary Pirates while sailing the Atlantic Ocean. At this time, American envoys tried to obtain protection from European powers, but to no avail. On December 20, 1777, Morocco's Sultan Mohammed III declared that the American merchant ships would be under the protection of the sultanate and could thus enjoy safe passage. Eventually the pirates by th 19th century slowly died out, disappered, only some small attacks up to 20th century did happen.

The Moroccan-American Treaty of Friendship stands as the U.S.'s oldest non-broken friendship treaty!

In the beginning of the 20th century french had huge influence over Morocco, culture, economic etc etc for many reasons I would prefer not to go into detail right now lol, anyway french became the second language in Morocco. Almost everyone talks french in Morocco now, and watches french TV etc. Probably one of the reasons theres quite a few Moroccans in france.

Morocco recovered its political independence from France on March 2, 1956.

The influences of culture changes shows in the food too!
This is a result of the centuries-long interaction of Morocco with the outside world. The cuisine of Morocco is a mix of Berber, Spanish, Corsican, Portuguese, Moorish, Middle Eastern, Mediterranean, and African cuisines. The cuisine of Morocco has been influenced by the native Berber cuisine, the Arabic Andalusian cuisine brought by the Moriscos when they left Spain, the Turkish cuisine from the Turks and the Middle Eastern cuisines brought by the Arabs, as well as Jewish cuisine.

So morocco has had influence so that their culture is a mix of arabic, berber, spanish, english, french etc. (thats why it's a great place to visit, it has a sense of mystery and beauty)

And now Morocco is still in big culture change, influences from all over the world, all kinds of music, all western products, bollywood movies, western clothes, fashion, bigger cities for example Casablanca.

Well that took quite some time to write lol.

The cultures of the countries in this world has always been changing and always will change, it's the way of life.

Thank you for reading.

Peace.








[edit on 10-10-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 07:33 AM
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Hi _Phoenix_ thanks for your input. I live in Leicester which I think is the arab and Indian capital of the UK and my family is from London so I'm also very used to British asians. I agree with you about some of the girls. There is a really hot Iranian in some of my lectures....


With regard to the videos you posted- while some of it may not be to everyone's taste, I think going as far as saying you hate the country and the culture so much you want to nuke it is, to say the least, a bit extreme.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 07:34 AM
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Another post I made about the modern culture of Morocco, it's related to this thread, because of the fact that many people have a view of a muslim country that doesn't fit the reality of it.


Originally posted by _Phoenix_

Originally posted by poet1b
reply to post by _Phoenix_
 


Thanks for the history on Morocco. What percentage of Morocco is Muslim? How safe is it for a white man to walk around? Isn't Casablanca in Morocco? Also, from my understanding, one of the populations with the highest percentages of RH negative blood is in the Mountains in Morocco. These people are probably related to the Basques, and the ancient Britons, after whom the British isles are named.

The way I see it, it that we either talk about our problems, suspicions, and fears in the escalating war between non-Muslims, even when these exchanges get ugly, or we can be silent, and the violence will come sooner than later.


Most of morocco is muslim, not sure on percentage but almost everyone.

But most are a very moderate, very relaxed form of muslims, not very strict etc.

Like I said before most young women wear very casual clothes, no scarf. You know jeans and top or moroccan style dress.

A white man can easily walk around morocco without problems, except maybe it's easier if you know french. There are many tourists in morocco, especially french, around the beaches areas, in Marrakesh because of it's uniquness, in fes medina market areas. Lots of tourists buy homes etc.

The only problem I could think of, is watch out for little thieves! they might target tourists because they got money, even moroccans have to watch out for them, you know on buses or crowded areas.

But the police deal well with them lol.

But except for that it's very nice, the houses are nice too, nice and spaceious, very friendly people. The familes are big and very loving, everyone is close to each other, you know lots of hugs and kisses sort of families.

Not sure about the RH negative blood, but I do know theres a lot of very light skinned moroccans, I've met quite a few moroccans with green eyes, light brown hair etc. Probably because of the berbers? or possibly other influences like the europeans, english etc. who knows.

Anyway I mentioned Morocco because from my experience it's nothing like some of the other muslims countries that are known for it's inhumanity.

Morocco is more like a euro-arab kind of country in the feel.

So we can't pick on all muslims, we have to pick on the dodgy ones. That was basically my point.


Anyway you were asking about Morocco here's a few short videos you can watch that gives you a much better idea than words.

Princess LALLA SOUKAINA


Fez Morocco- has kept it's old style traditional look unlike Casablanca for example.



Moroccan Celebrities clips, men/women.
The first clip is a MAN lol, he's funny.



Moroccan Celeb Women.

www.youtube.com...
www.youtube.com...
Some berber moroccans.
www.youtube.com...

Moroccan Celeb Men.





Sorry for this lol, I just remember these posts, and I think it is on topic, because of the fact somebody wants to nuke places that he/she probably has no idea of the reality of the place. So Morocco is just another example of a muslim country that people might not know much about.

Not every muslim country is the same, and not every country is how you might think it is, especially if you just follow the news.

So here ya go, please don't nuke this country too !?



[edit on 10-10-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 07:37 AM
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Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by _Phoenix_
I'm half Moroccan, and I know a lot arabs and some iranians.


We always hear about the "problem with muslims" in the UK. Do the Arabs and Iranians fully integrate?

Here we do not have many but they integrate very well. They frequently intermarry with Euro-Americans and assimilate completely in one generation.


I have a lot of British muslim friends and I honestly trust a lot of them more than I trust British white people (on average). If I ever mention the Islamic fundimentalist stuff they always say that is is 'rediculous' and that they are the muslim equivalent of the Klu Klux Klan. Obviously some of them can be bastards but you get them everywhere. They generally do integrate well except their parents are often holding them back integration-wise. Usually it is the parents that make them wear the Hijab (headscarf) and disown them if the marry a Sikh or another non-muslim.

There are some people that are ethnically Iranian that noone even really sees as being foreign at all.

[edit on 10-10-2008 by Mister E]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 07:43 AM
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reply to post by Mister E
 


True the youth I know, a lot of asians, they intergrate well, they do most of the a stuff any other boys or girls do at that age. Not really a sign of extremism lol. The only problems I know is the problems most youths cause anyway, cause trouble etc.


Where do you live?(edit: oh forget that I just read your post lol) I'm in London. In my experience arabs in west London have done well integrating, and asian youths are doing better than their parents.

Not sure if were going too off topic now haha.




[edit on 10-10-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:08 AM
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Originally posted by _Phoenix_True the youth I know, a lot of asians, they intergrate well, they do most of the a stuff any other boys or girls do at that age. Not really a sign of extremism lol. The only problems I know is the problems most youths cause anyway, cause trouble etc.


When you say Asian you mean Indian and Pakistani? Here they are considered white, here Asians are people from Far East Asia.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:15 AM
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Originally posted by Sonya610

Originally posted by _Phoenix_True the youth I know, a lot of asians, they intergrate well, they do most of the a stuff any other boys or girls do at that age. Not really a sign of extremism lol. The only problems I know is the problems most youths cause anyway, cause trouble etc.


When you say Asian you mean Indian and Pakistani? Here they are considered white, here Asians are people from Far East Asia.

Oh yeah I forgot that Americans have a different saying.

Here in UK,asians are Pakistanis, Indians, Bangladeshis, Chinese, Korean, japanese etc etc

Kinda silly thou, it's easier just sayin Korean, Indian etc.
By the way the Pakistanis around my area are really friendly, great food too.

I always liked the name Sonya.




[edit on 10-10-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:24 AM
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Yeah, he's awesome. So awesome that most of his country doesn't like him or his policies.

The simple fact is that most Iranian people loathe the rule of the Mullahs and dear Mahmoud is just a mouthpiece and puppet of theirs.

I'm not going to call the guy crazy, because he is an intelligent man, but make no mistake that if he had his way he would do everything in his power to wipe Israel off the map (at the very least).



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:53 AM
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This is a great thread, and it is long overdue here at ATS.

It is obvious. The USA government, enabled by the press, has demonized Ahmadinejad and Chavez, and to a certain extent the same was true with Saddam Hussein. None of these leaders are as bad as people commonly believe. It is pure manipulation of USA perceptions.

Why do they do this? I think one answer is that these leaders can be very abrasive in their rhetoric. This offends the President (and the USA people) in a personal way. The press loves a story. So it is easy to selectively quote these leaders to make them look like monsters.

By way of example, take a look at what Hinky said earlier, about turning Iran into "a sheet of glass". Pretty harsh statement! Everyone jumped all over Hinky for saying that. But the truth is that Hinky is obviously a very nice and thoughtful person who was just trying to make a forceful point. I am sure Hinky would not kill millions of innocent people, given that opportunity. Far from it!

Now think: Ahmadejad says that Israel should be consumed in fire. (It is a selective quote.) Couple that with Iran's potential nuclear capability. See? It is pretty easy to manipulate someone's feelings with words. Exactly like what Hinky was doing.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 08:59 AM
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Originally posted by Buck Division


By way of example, take a look at what Hinky said earlier, about turning Iran into "a sheet of glass". Pretty harsh statement! Everyone jumped all over Hinky for saying that. But the truth is that Hinky is obviously a very nice and thoughtful person who was just trying to make a forceful point. I am sure Hinky would not kill millions of innocent people, given that opportunity. Far from it!




Yeah your possibly right, some people say things if they feel emotional, but Hinky has to be careful, if he/she keeps thinking like that, it will lead to the same path as the extremists. Same thing just opposite sides.

Hatred is such an addictive emotion. It's a shame it also spreads around easily too.

Example: One person is in a bad mood, and talks to his son in a bad way, his son who was in a good mood now is in a bad mood, he goes to school and has a fight, this person he had a fight with goes home and takes out his anger on his little sister, she cries, and it annoys their mother, when the father comes home the mother is pissed off and takes it out on the father.

The father goes to the pub in a bad mood and has a pub fight, the guy he fought with lost, and goes home annoyed and drunk, so he beats his son up, his son is sad and angry so he takes it out on his pet kitten, he tortures the kitten.....etc etc


LOL that was really random I know, I'm just saying, it can spread haha. So think of something similar but the opposite, your nice to someone, they get in a good mood and it spreads to other people, better right? Is that Karma or something? I don't know.

Anyway that was funny.




[edit on 10-10-2008 by _Phoenix_]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 09:09 AM
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One other thing, which shows how many misperceptions exist about Iran.

It is absolutely true that Iran does not have freedom of religion, as we have here in the USA, and as exists in most western countries.

Iran officially permits only four religions. What are they?

#

Answer: Islam, Christianity, Zoroastrism, and Judaism.

Yeah. Although Iran is often thought of as anti-Semitic, Judaism is one of the four exclusive religions that Iran permits. I would wager that most westerners do not know that. It is one of those truths that is selectively dropped.



The Constitution declares that the "official religion of Iran is Islam and the doctrine followed is that of Ja'fari (Twelver) Shi'ism." It also designates Zoroastrians, Jews, and Christians as the only "recognized religious minorities," which, "within the limits of the law," are permitted to perform their religious rites and ceremonies and "to act according to their own canon in matters of personal affairs and religious education".


www.state.gov...



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 09:12 AM
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Originally posted by _Phoenix_
Some people say things if they feel emotional, but Hinky has to be careful, if he/she keeps thinking like that, it will lead to the same path as the extremists. Same thing just opposite sides. Hatred is such an addictive emotion. It's a shame it also spreads around easily too.


You totally nail it, buddy.

Your statement is really the point of this topic, and says it all. Hatred is addictive emotion, easily spread around.

That is the root problem.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 10:07 AM
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Originally posted by Buck Division
Yeah. Although Iran is often thought of as anti-Semitic, Judaism is one of the four exclusive religions that Iran permits. I would wager that most westerners do not know that. It is one of those truths that is selectively dropped.


Yeah Islam forbids persecuting Jews because of their religion, Iran is anti-Zionist not anti-Jewish. My boss is an Iranian Jew who moved to the states years ago (no accent), he goes back home to visit Iran whenever he likes, so I would guess he does not feel persecuted.

Though the difference between the churches and the mosques is astounding. The mosques are these huge impressive structures lovingly adorned with carvings and other artwork.

The only christian "churches" I saw were in private homes, like a cross painted on the gate in front of someone's house. I guess architecture should not matter, but still I have to think that it would have a psychological effect. Go to the beautiful impressive Mosque that glorifies God, or go worship in the back bedroom of some small house.

[edit on 10-10-2008 by Sonya610]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 10:40 AM
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Originally posted by Sonya610
Though the difference between the churches and the mosques is astounding. The mosques are these huge impressive structures lovingly adorned with carvings and other artwork. The only christian "churches" I saw were in private homes, like a cross painted on the gate in front of someone's house. I guess architecture should not matter, but still I have to think that it would have a psychological effect. Go to the beautiful impressive Mosque that glorifies God, or go worship in the back bedroom of some small house.


Very enlightening!

From what you indicate, I have no doubt that it is hard to be a Christian or a Jew in Iran. And it sounds like it is impossible to practice the Hindu religion in Iran, quite unlike the USA, which permits any religion to be practiced (within the constraints of our drug, polygamy, and various other laws.)

Perhaps, practicing non-Islam in Iran is similar to practicing Islam in the modern USA. (Perhaps slightly more difficult in Iran, but fairly comparable.)

Finally, anyone who has spent five minutes with the Koran knows it is completely filled with highly respectful Christian and Judaic references and citations. I am amazed at the number of people who don't know that.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 10:51 AM
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Originally posted by Buck DivisionFinally, anyone who has spent five minutes with the Koran knows it is completely filled with highly respectful Christian and Judaic references and citations. I am amazed at the number of people who don't know that.


I'm not religious at all but I own a copy of the Qu'ran and the Bible. They seem to be almost the same book with almost all the same stories. The main difference I noticed with the Qu'ran is that there seems to be more emphasis that if you don't believe it then you are going to hell. Which I thought was a bit rubbish.

[edit on 10-10-2008 by Mister E]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 11:07 AM
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Yes they are a beautiful people with a even more magnificent and interesting past, however, seems I recall




'Death to Ahmadinejad,' Iranian crowds cry

www.breitbart.com...

"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country," Ahmadinejad

Remember when he said this, what a card.

Maybe he should do stand up,


www.huffingtonpost.com...


This July, Iran executed 29 people in a single day following unfair trials. The process was so opaque that the identities of 19 of the executed men remain unknown. In 2005, when Ahmadinejad took office, Iran executed 86 people. Last year this number almost quadrupled to 317 people executed. Indeed, Iran executes more people than any other country but China (although its population is 18 times smaller). President Ahmadinejad's administration has also viciously targeted human rights defenders. Last month, the state official news agency, Islamic Republic News Agency, launched a series of attacks and defamations against Shirin Ebadi, the 2003 Nobel Peace Laureate. These articles rehashed allegations by a shadowy group that has sent regular death threats to Ebadi over the years. As a result, her safety and security are in serious danger.

Another well-known human rights defender, Emad Baghi, is currently imprisoned for articles he wrote against the application of death penalty a decade ago. With his health in a critical state, intelligence agents continue to harshly interrogate him in prison -- ironically, about his advocacy for prisoners' rights. Mohammad Sadiq Kaboudvand, the founder of the Human Rights Organization of Kurdistan, is serving an 11- year sentence; his crime: human rights advocacy.

These are only a few of the many grave human rights issues that have reached a crisis level under President Ahmadinejad. The persecution and prosecution of dissidents, journalists, students, labor activists, religious and ethnic minorities are also rampant.


What a sweetheart

human rights issues
www.scribd.com...

[edit on 113131p://bFriday2008 by Stormdancer777]

[edit on 113131p://bFriday2008 by Stormdancer777]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 11:33 AM
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Originally posted by Stormdancer777
Yes they are a beautiful people with a even more magnificent and interesting past, however, seems I recall

'Death to Ahmadinejad,' Iranian crowds cry

www.breitbart.com...

"In Iran we don't have homosexuals like in your country," Ahmadinejad

Remember when he said this, what a card.

Maybe he should do stand up,


www.huffingtonpost.com...


This July, Iran executed 29 people in a single day following unfair trials. The process was so opaque that the identities of 19 of the executed men remain unknown. In 2005, when Ahmadinejad took office, Iran executed 86 people. Last year this number almost quadrupled to 317 people executed. Indeed, Iran executes more people than any other country but China (although its population is 18 times smaller). President Ahmadinejad's administration has also viciously targeted human rights defenders. Last month, the state official news agency, Islamic Republic News Agency, launched a series of attacks and defamations against Shirin Ebadi, the 2003 Nobel Peace Laureate. These articles rehashed allegations by a shadowy group that has sent regular death threats to Ebadi over the years. As a result, her safety and security are in serious danger.

Another well-known human rights defender, Emad Baghi, is currently imprisoned for articles he wrote against the application of death penalty a decade ago. With his health in a critical state, intelligence agents continue to harshly interrogate him in prison -- ironically, about his advocacy for prisoners' rights. Mohammad Sadiq Kaboudvand, the founder of the Human Rights Organization of Kurdistan, is serving an 11- year sentence; his crime: human rights advocacy.

These are only a few of the many grave human rights issues that have reached a crisis level under President Ahmadinejad. The persecution and prosecution of dissidents, journalists, students, labor activists, religious and ethnic minorities are also rampant.


What a sweetheart


Yeh while it is clear that the current Iranian government is by no means ideal. In that particular interview I watched I thought he responded very well and with good humour even though I didn't agree with everything. My personal view on the current government in Iran is that while it is oppressive at times and unfair, I think it is up to the Iranians themselves to sort out their own problems and it is certainly not up to the United States to go sticking its nose into other peoples affairs or to invade them. The US government is certainly no angel either and, especially with regard to new developments such as Guantanamo etc, the US cannot pretend it is on the moral high ground when dealing with Iran.

[edit on 10-10-2008 by Mister E]



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 12:11 PM
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All I think we should remember is, the people and the goverments are different, you can never really trust a goverment, you can also never hate a country, it is never that simple, nothing is so black and white in this life.

As you can see from my videos and your own research, Iran is a rich country, full of culture and different people. There's not much to hate.

Don't judge the people by their president.


And if a War ever comes, just remember about the people.



posted on Oct, 10 2008 @ 12:21 PM
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I like him too.


In fact, I think he's pretty cool


Why?

Because for two years you had Bush and Zionist labelling him as the axis of evil and saying hes bad, (with no hard end proof stating he is what they say)

He is just so cool about it.


Now, You have Bush and Zionist wanting to attack him, and he's reponding showing calmness, intellegence and diplomacy.

I mean give him around of applause.





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