Most knowledgable way to prove god.

this is off a completely other forum. we got into a bit of an age old debate about "does god exist?" personally i believe in science, and am a strong atheist. But i want to hear other peoples rebuttal on this response. so far, after reading a number of "God does and doesnt exist" topics on this forum, this post struck me as the best of the God exist ones.

Originally Posted by Ghost147
so, once again, i beg you, please prove god to me in a way i, and no one else, could prove otherwise.

Well, let's start with proving a higher being, diety, or god's, existence. Explaining Christianity comes later, but now, let's find out why there, logically, must be a higher being or deity.

We must first answer these questions.

What can come from nothing?
...Nothing, obviously, it would be completely irrational to say anything different then nothing. Nothing can come from nothing, things don't pop up out of nowhere. (This is usually where the atheist says "How was God created?" ... Answer: God is not bound by time, God created time. If God isn't bound by time, past tense words such as "created" do not apply to God. Therefore, he basically, has no beginning, but exists---because he's not bound by time. It's complicated, but understandable.)

If nothing can come from nothing, how does anything at all exist?
A higher being or deity created it. (Read above if asking how the deity was "created") Some people may argue the big bang did it, but how did the big bang occur if nothing can come from nothing? IF (if) the big bang is true, something created what was required for it to happen. Personally I find the whole big bang/evolution theory irrelevant to my beliefs, but I choose to believe in creationism. Again though, I think it's irrelevant and don't care either way.

Now, on the subject of religion. Which religion is right? I believe it's Christianity, here is a website I found that does a pretty good job explaining the basics of why we believe Christianity is true. www.christiananswers.net...

Also, after reading the above website, you may also like: 100prophecies.org...

Well, let's start with proving a higher being, diety, or god's, existence. Explaining Christianity comes later, but now, let's find out why there, logically, must be a higher being or deity.

We must first answer these questions.

What can come from nothing?
...Nothing, obviously, it would be completely irrational to say anything different then nothing. Nothing can come from nothing, things don't pop up out of nowhere. (This is usually where the atheist says "How was God created?" ... Answer: God is not bound by time, God created time. If God isn't bound by time, past tense words such as "created" do not apply to God. Therefore, he basically, has no beginning, but exists---because he's not bound by time. It's complicated, but understandable.)

If nothing can come from nothing, how does anything at all exist?
A higher being or deity created it. (Read above if asking how the deity was "created") Some people may argue the big bang did it, but how did the big bang occur if nothing can come from nothing? IF (if) the big bang is true, something created what was required for it to happen. Personally I find the whole big bang/evolution theory irrelevant to my beliefs, but I choose to believe in creationism. Again though, I think it's irrelevant and don't care either way.

God not being bound by time is only something that the creationist made up to answer the "how was God created" question. Yes it makes sense, but it is being applied to a being that has no evidence whatsover to support it's existence. It is no different than me saying, "the reason you can't see Big Foot is because he's invisible. In other words, it's only an excuse...

The second paragraph... I can't believe you were stumped by this... All this user is doing is filling science's gaps with God... If science can't explain it, then God did it

I don't think you can "prove" the existance of god to anyone. You can prove it to yourself,and that's it. (IMO)

It is just another in a long line of non-answers.

Well how did god come into existence?

er....um... he didn't he was just always here.

You can't answer a serious question with another question/non-answer and unfortunately, that's what supporters of ID/creationism do... by constantly being proven wrong, they've had to come up with unquestionable answers..

Such as 'god always existed and god created time.'

Now, nobody can prove or disprove this..so it puts you right back to square one.


Some people believe and some don't..... nothing will change that.

Originally posted by blupblup
You can't answer a serious question with another question/non-answer and unfortunately, that's what supporters of ID/creationism do... by constantly being proven wrong, they've had to come up with unquestionable answers..

Such as 'god always existed and god created time.'

Question- why are creationists/IDers being given the credit for 'coming up with' this belief when it has been recorded in the Bible for thousands of years that God always existed and that He created time? It's not like they pulled it out of thin air.

reply to post by Ghost147



Hello Ghost, I will not try to prove God to you. But I will state that I too am a lover of science. To me, science, the order of all things beautifully entwined, is God. God is science, vise versa. The soul and spirit have a science we will not understand here. Souls contain light and dark, like waves of vibrations, dimness/brightness ect...Souls go through a process of recycling, just like everthing in mother nature gets recycled. Its a process that sifts through light and dark and recycles the light, no light shall be lost. Darkness is to me, the flesh, material, everything that we see with our eyes. Our inner eye sees things of spirit, its a mind connection, thoughts are eternal. Everything that contains life contains God. Mother Nature shows us the process of recycling, I believe this is similar in the changes of our souls.

If one is to find God, its through seeking within onesself, not asking for physical proof. God is not physical.

reply to post by AshleyD


Ok, fair point... but where specifically does it say that he created time?

Plus creationists, as i didn't state new/old/bonkers or whatever would be anyone who believes in a creator right??

Hmmm... thought so

Originally posted by Ghost147
i believe in science, and am a strong atheist.

Isn't atheism a binary proposition so it's hard to be "strongly" atheistic? Science is outside the purview of belief, it's about knowledge - you can't believe in science you either know scientific things or don't.

That's where we have the fundamental problem in proofs for God's existence. You (meaning many) desire such a proof when it is impossible. Using the rules of creation prove the Creator? You cannot give such a cast iron proof. Much of what's around us and available to us via experience (of reason and the senses) brings us so far and can suffice as a momentum to bring that "leap of faith" to faith. Revelation also provides experience with enough data that might encourage that leap.

Unfortunately we live in an age where "theophobia" has developed as many other phobias and is fundamentally a fear of not being in control. Fear of flying, insects, crowds any number of things is a fear of being in a situation where matters are out of the control of the self. Atheism is a situation in which individuals are afraid of the handing over of control to Another despite experience (as reason, sensory information and revelation) assuring them such a "leap" is possible. As with all phobias it is irrational but produces an emotional response which is potent.

Let go and let God. Or stand on the precipice frightened.

To use the word created can be a loaded thought.

If we look at Genesis, the word for created was 'bara'

This translation can mean 'to fill' 'to fatten'. The word bara is also used in reference to the fat that filled the flesh of the animals. To me it sounds like the earth and heavens were 'filled' or fattened by God. The material physycal realhm could of been an effect from a cause of spirit falling into matter, then the spirit filled or fattened the earth.

Just some thoughts, nothing with any certainty.