The Myth of the All Forgiving God.

Originally posted by jakyll
...And i don't think i've read that part where Jesus went around preaching hell and damnation. ...

Then, I don't think you are reading the same bible as me. Jesus spoke about hell and damnation more than ANY OTHER TOPIC.

What makes people so absolutely sure that the tribes He ordered killed were so "innocent"? Take some time and read about the horrific things that these tribes had done, and were doing, at the time this order came down.

(Tinfoil hat time)

Also, if you believe the Book of Enoch, the "people" killed during the Great Flood WEREN'T EVEN HUMAN. They could, at best, be described as half human. Genesis 6:9 seems to support this. It says (in part) "Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations". What do you think "perfect in his generations" means? It is not a stretch at all to see it as meaning his DNA was WHOLLY HUMAN.

(end tinfoil hat time)

This is from 1 Samuel 17.

Goliath is describes as being "six cubits and a span". His mail armor weighed "five thousand shekels of brass.", "his spear's head weighed six hundred shekels of iron"

Here is the height and weight in modern vernacular.

Height: approximately 9-10 1/2 feet.
Armor weight: approx. 156 pounds. (modern soldiers have trouble with a backpack that weighs 80 pounds).
Spear HEAD weight: approx 19 pounds. To give you an idea of how heavy this is, a shotput is 16 pounds, and the world record for it is "only" 75 feet.

Does that sound like a normal human to you? Goliath's size doesn't even compare to Og's size, either. Comparing Goliath to a regular man would be the comparison between Og and Goliath.

To sort of paraphrase God to Job: "Hey Buddy! When you can make your own universe, and when you can make a living man in it, THEN you can tell me how to run MY universe!"

[edit on 5-10-2008 by sir_chancealot]

reply to post by sir_chancealot

Then, I don't think you are reading the same bible as me. Jesus spoke about hell and damnation more than ANY OTHER TOPIC.

The verses you posted are about God.I am not Catholic,i do not believe in the Holy Trinity.To me Jesus and God are not one and the same.

eternal damnation in hellfire is not biblical. so saying god cannot be love is moot

I think perhaps we should all do well to study more about the origins of the bible, and the various mythologies that have been grafted onto it. Hell is one of those things.

In the traditional Old Testament, there is no hell. There is no heaven. Shayol, in the Jewish Faith, is more of a purgatory for all souls than it is an afterlife. Hell, in and of itself, was not part of Religious teachings in Christianity till well after Christ was dead.

It's also due to note that not only are you to love your neighbor, but your enemies too. Turning the other cheeks means forgiving those who trespass against you, which means people who sin against you are to be forgiven.

The message Christ brings is one of Love and fellowship of your brother and sister in God. People responsible for the bible have perverted and obscured this message throughout time.

This is the ONLY message Christ brought... Love one another, and do not let the Church deceive you into thinking you need them to be loved by God.

We are all loved by god, sinner and saint alike... for we are a part of the great Creation, and there is nothing more beautiful.

reply to post by miriam0566

eternal damnation in hellfire is not biblical. so saying god cannot be love is moot

Hi there.

I believe being cast into the Lake of Fire is the Second Death mentioned in Revelation,and isn't an eternal punishment.Its the final death,never to resurrected again.


But,eternal damnation is biblical.

Mark 3:29

"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,but is in danger of eternal damnation."

[edit on 5-10-2008 by jakyll]

Originally posted by jakyll
(I say only thing because if we bring the 20th century poster child for insanity,Hitler,into this,we have this scenario;Hitler believed in God,his actions in this life means his destination in the next life is a foregone conclusion....unless;as the end of WW2 was drawing near,he sincerly repented for all that he had done and he begged God for forgiveness....after such a thing would he remain in hell? Not according to the teachings of the Bible.)

Isaiah 1:15 "And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood."
If Hitler did try to repent, God would never know it, so it would do no good because he already sealed his doom when he constantly committed murder.

[edit on 5-10-2008 by jmdewey60]

Originally posted by jakyll
I believe being cast into the Lake of Fire is the Second Death mentioned in Revelation,and isn't an eternal punishment.Its the final death,never to resurrected again.


But,eternal damnation is biblical.

Mark 3:29

"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness,but is in danger of eternal damnation."

sorry, your right.

the problem i have is that so many use eternal damnation to mean ¨eternal torment in hellfire¨ which isnt biblical

a person who is put to death and not eligible would be eternal damned

my apologies

reply to post by miriam0566


No worries,and apology graciously accepted

I agree though.Many believe that eternal punishment in hellfire is actually biblical and will actually happen,so i guess i shoulda clarified what i meant.

reply to post by jmdewey60

Isaiah 1:15 "And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood."

This verse refers only to Jerusalem and Judah.

Isaiah 1:1

The vision of Isaiah the son of Amoz,which he saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem in the days of Uzziah,Jotham,Ahaz,and Hezekiah,kings of Judah.

Actually,the 1st several chapters of Isaiah are about the fate of Judah and Jerusalem.

Ive just stumbled upon a documentary about the the history of the devil, so thought i would post it in here for your opinions in light of this thread

Its around an hour long and its quite interesting, worth the watch imo.

Click for video

Ive got to go but will share my opinions later should anyone wish to hear them

edit: ATS wont let me embed vids so i apologise.


[edit on 5-10-2008 by enduser]

I can see how people can despise the organized religion such as Christianity that is full of hypocrisy and hate towards those that don't believe, but what I don't understand is how can people not "buy" (for lack of a better term) into the fundamentals of Christianity? I myself am a Christian, but it's not what it seems as if you have all been exposed to. God is all forgiving when you believe that redemption can only be found through the only good and perfect sacrifice of his son. How hard is it to believe in that? Just for a moment let your mind defy a little bit of logic and believe. That is how you can come to live in full light of God's love for you. Of course, if you don't believe that there was a perfect sacrifice (Jesus) that died for you, then God still loves you, but can't grant you the eternal life because, like I said, that eternal life (in heaven and in spirit) can only be found through belief in him.

People see religion as big and bad, but really, they've never experienced anything other than religion itself. They've never experienced a true relationship with God.

reply to post by enduser


Many thanks.

I have a few books on the subject,but its always good to see someone else's view.

reply to post by For(Home)Country

Hey For(Home)Country!

It's exactly the fundamentals of Christianity that I don't buy (at least the modern day versions of it). I generally don't even consider the the trimmings that have been added to it, but why should I accept the 'fundamental' (Christian) truth that someone came 2000 years ago, and got nailed on a cross and died so that a (definitely not All Forgiving) God's thirst for blood (to wash away sin) could be quenched, and thus forgive all humanity past and present.
If you know of a branch of Christianity that doesn't revolve around the crucifixion of Christ for this purpose, tell me where to sign!


Sorry for the bluntness of the post...

reply to post by babloyi

Hey!

No no, bluntness is much welcomed. However, I don't see why so many people have a problem with the fact that Jesus Christ died for our sins? I find it quite touching and loving (it would take a while to explain) that my God would send his only son to die for me, mankind. Please, if you will, enlighten me as to why this very thing offends you and/or turns you away from Christianity?

Also, if you are looking for a branch of Christianity that doesn't evolve around Christ's death, than look no further than Catholicism, my friend. It's all about the virgin marry over there.

reply to post by For(Home)Country

Hello again, For(Home)Country.

I find it disturbing because of a number of factors.
-One being the concept that sins can be transferred (something I thought was against judaism and christianity- that no man would die for another's sins). I realise (or I SHOULD realise) what wrongs I've done, admit them, and accept them for being my fault, and my fault alone, and thus also the need to fix, or correct the wrongs I've done should lie with me also. Passing it on to a completely innocent, uninvolved 3rd party just seems mean. I love Jesus far too much to wish my sins on him.

-Another being the very idea that a blood sacrifice should at all be needed by God to wash away sins. Blood for sins concept seems rather barbaric to me.

-Lastly the idea that God would even need to go through this whole rigmarole. As far as I understand it, when I've done something wrong, I need to repent, and ask for forgiveness- that is how much God loves me. Introducing a whole other aspect of Jesus's death on the cross to wash away my sins just seems bizarre.


PS: I always wince a little when I see how so many christians shoot themselves in the foot by attacking catholicism. Not only does it go against your beliefs to judge them in such a way, but you owe them the Bible you use (how it was safeguarded for so many centuries) and you owe them most of the theology that you believe in. Also, if I took a poll at this very moment of all the Catholic Christians on the forum, I get the feeling that they'd all disagree with your statement that it is not about the crucifixion of Jesus.
Then when someone brings up the crusades there is always the response "those were the catholics!". Then if someone brings up the Salem witch trials, "those were the protestants!"...it is all somewhat sad.

Originally posted by enduser
Thanks for clarifying

anyway, if the kingdom of heaven can be found within, wouldnt that make heaven and god already part of you? im probably way off the mark though so please correct me

one of the strange things ive never understood, why do catholics symbolically eat the flesh of christ and drink his blood? seems rather sick to me. and why are so many religions fixated with material wealth? whilst in london i saw a priest or bishop (god only knows which one it was) wearing a gold cross larger than some gangster rappers bling. crazy world we live in, or should i say, crazy humans.

No, you aren't way off the mark. You are exactly correct, god and jesus are in you. You're consciousness is god. John 14 talks about this. It also states that even if you do not learn such things from Jesus/Bible, you will be given information from the holy spirit(which is the spirit of the truth).

To eat of his flesh and such is to eat of truth.

Your parents are right, that it has been used to control the masses. It controls them because it is the religion about Jesus, rather than the religion of Jesus. The church is evil. They commit blasphemy against the holy spirit.

To blasphemy against the holy spirit, is to knowingly manipulate the truth and tell falsehoods to the people when you know otherwise.

I recommend reading the entire chapter. I'm just quoting a few highlights. Jesus is the truth. Which doesn't mean accept what the bible says as truth(he wasn't even around when it was written), but that when you find the truth, you have found Jesus. Jesus says things like "Seek and you will find", and "The truth will set you free". He doesn't say things like - worship my image and the bible.

www.biblegateway.com...

16 And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever

17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you.

20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you.

26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you.

29 I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe.

30 I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me,

[edit on 6-10-2008 by badmedia]

i thought of an illustration that might shed some light on the subject.

lets say god makes a beautiful clay pot. during the course of daily activities, the pot gets damaged. there is a missing chuck from the bottom. the pot no longer can hold water.

the other problem is that molds cannot be made to copy the pot since all the molds would have the crack too. now god can fix this, but for the illustration sake lets say there is something that is not allowing him to? of what use is a broken pot?

god creates adam who is perfect. but he was created with freewill. (part of adam´s purpose was to love god because he wanted to, not because he was programmed to). adam became cracked when he sinned. he no longer met god´s standard. his offspring too have that same hole, so we dont meet god´s standard either. of what use does god have with broken humans?

what does this have to unforgivable sin?

by providing jesus, he provided a means to mend the hole. but unlike pots, we have freewill. we can in effect say to god ¨no¨.

why would someone say no?

imagine for a moment that you have a hole in the wall with water coming through. you might not see that if you keep letting this water through, that you are going to drown. and not having anything to help you plug up the hole makes you realize its a uphill battle anyway. so you might conclude that you might as well relax.

sin is the same way. we dont see how it kills us (per say, it certain situations we do) and we really are not capable of stopping it. so the mentality some take is why bother?

sin feels good, why should i stop?

well that a decision that each person has to make. but that is also why god is not all forgiving. those that choose not to receive his help wont get it.

as for their fate... if you have something that is broken and that is useless to you, do you ¨torture¨ it? or do you throw it out?

why do they throw things into an incinerator? isnt it to get rid of something that you dont want and cant use?

reply to post by babloyi

I always wince a little when I see how so many christians shoot themselves in the foot by attacking catholicism. Not only does it go against your beliefs to judge them in such a way, but you owe them the Bible you use

Those who use KJV don't,thats Church of England.And 70% of that came from William Tyndale and 30% came from the Latin Vulgate,both of which came from original transcripts or copies of original transcripts.

Originally posted by jakyll
reply to post by jmdewey60

 

This verse refers only to Jerusalem and Judah.
Actually,the 1st several chapters of Isaiah are about the fate of Judah and Jerusalem.

I would like to add a coupe of verses that are not part of a tirade against Judea but still support the concept of God not hearing the prayers of evildoers.
Psalm 66:18 If I regard iniquity in my heart, the Lord will not hear me:
Proverbs 28:9 He that turneth away his ear from hearing the law, even his prayer shall be abomination.

reply to post by miriam0566

god creates adam who is perfect. but he was created with freewill. (part of adam´s purpose was to love god because he wanted to, not because he was programmed to). adam became cracked when he sinned. he no longer met god´s standard. his offspring too have that same hole, so we dont meet god´s standard either. of what use does god have with broken humans?

Good illustration but to say that we have the same hole as Adam sounds too much like the Original Sin theory.Which i don't believe.You are born innocent.

A good explanation of the 'sins of the fathers' can be found here;
www.carm.org...