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posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 07:17 AM
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Yet another attempt by Taledus to insight conversation
.


For nearly 20 years I have been involved with Martial Arts...but these last few years, with family, work, and school, I have had to back away because there was never enough time to fit classes in. Ever since my father past away, who was my main instructor, I just havn't found the need or want to get back in the game until yesterday.

My cousin, 14yo, young male, who has been dealing with the typical boy aggressions found in some of the youth today, is in need of direction. His parents are recently divorced, and he has seemed to turn towards being an @** to most people around...except me. I discussed with him about beginning training, which he was interrested (who doesn't want to learn how to maim people
). Just kidding. So I am doing my best to guide him with his path, which I did explain the trials and difficulties he will be faced with in learning from me.

So yesterday began his training, and like most kids I have dealt with, have about 900 questions. I try to answer them the best I can, but some are just redundant ones...like, "What do you do if XXX". Very difficult to explain all the variables involved in each and every fight scenerio. But that isn't what I'm about.

Don't ask why I took time to type the above, it really is a reasoning why I am at the question now.

Trying to explain the meteaphysics in Martial arts has never been my best ability...usually it is through demonstrations. So I turned to my (now antiquated) books on Chi and inner energy...scour the net for what articles that would make sense to a teenager. I have old article clippings that are very faded discussing scientific testing of Chi, but nothing I can find has a scientific backing to it.

So I am curious if anyone has thoughts or perhaps some links to articles discussing the scientific aspects of Chi? Perhaps rescent testing they have accomplished that has successfully measured it. While I am sure it will eventually come to me on how to explain this to him with something he can understand, I would suppose with the experience of members here would possibly have insight as to some good methods.

It is perplexing to me that he is unable to understand how Chi works, even with demonstrations. I was 12 when I began to learn about it, but it may just be the fact that he may not be ready. Only time will tell I guess.




posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 08:50 AM
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To be honest with you, I have no backround with martial arts or chi. But, I have discussed it with martial artists and one of the best ways a friend put it was through example. He talked about some famous martial artist (not sure which one) who would break small things like a twig whithout actually making contact to it, using chi. This was a good way to put it and sort of made me able to visualize or get the concept.

Ever seen anime where they blast energy? Obviously that's a stretch but it is similar right? It is like gathering energy and focusing it in one direction. Maybe a video or something from a chi master would help either:

A. Explain it to him in more laymens terms for better understanding, or

B. Get him excited/motivated to understand because he is seeing or hearing a master of martial arts either discuss chi or show an example.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 09:15 AM
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Originally posted by Taledus
So I am curious if anyone has thoughts or perhaps some links to articles discussing the scientific aspects of Chi? Perhaps rescent testing they have accomplished that has successfully measured it. While I am sure it will eventually come to me on how to explain this to him with something he can understand, I would suppose with the experience of members here would possibly have insight as to some good methods.


I don't know of any scientific studies, or even if there are any, so highly useless in that respect.

I am however, interested in why you feel as though you need the affirmation of studies to convey the nature of Chi? Do you feel it? If you know Chi exists, let him have a little faith and trust in you. I would be inclined, if it were me, to let a little of the Magic leak in anyway, it may be what he needs to fire his mind.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 09:19 AM
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I have demonstrated breaking bricks with little effort on this, something he cannot do, but he still is unable to understand. It's not like I am able to summon fireballs though. For the current time though I am just going to stick with the traditional methods of teaching until I can show something he can understand. For me, it was easier understanding, but that was almost 20 years ago when I began, and I cannot quite remember how my father had explained to me.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 09:32 AM
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reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Truth be told, martial arts has evolved from when it began...so has some of the understanding by instructors. I was taught a certain way, yet associate my methods differently than I was taught. But I have also attended many other classes by instructors who treat the martial arts as a business, as opposed to a way of life. Not many teach anything other than hurting someone if you just happen to be in an altercation.

I don't charge anymore, but for a long time I had only taught close family members, often turning others away because from my experience people feel they get more when they actually have to pay someone. I did not plan to teach anymore other than to my own children, but I feel I can offer some guidance for my cousin since the area we live in has absolutely nothing to do but for young kids to look to trouble.

Perhaps though he is just not ready to learn about Chi...which not everyone who practices martial arts knows or understands the meaning of it. Like I said previously I will probably just stick to traditional methods of teaching for the mean time.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 09:38 AM
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Originally posted by Taledus
I have demonstrated breaking bricks with little effort on this, something he cannot do, but he still is unable to understand.


Nice! But surely he needs to feel it to understand it. Work with what forces you've got...and he has lots of anger. If he can learn to focus his anger he may understand or recognise the other forces and be able to draw those into the same point.

Plus there are loads of videos on You Tube of masters doing what they do. I doubt I'll ever understand, but I do believe.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 12:40 PM
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reply to post by Taledus
 

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Very few, if any Westerners are let into the Chinese martial arts 'inner circle' or taught anything about Qi.

Part 'intention' and internal construct, and part use of the fascia in a new way, it certainly does not include "no touch" action at a distance, though some unscrupulous artists will try to sell you on that.

2 cents.

As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 01:10 PM
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I studied QiGong for several years. Have him stand like a tree for a mere 5 minutes and he will know what Qi/Chi is.

Teaching him Martial Arts is a really good thing. Good luck to you.

Edit:
Typo
looking for a link

[edit on 3-10-2008 by cindymars]

Edit :
www.chi-kung.org...

[edit on 3-10-2008 by cindymars]



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 01:25 PM
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Originally posted by Taledus
reply to post by KilgoreTrout
 


Perhaps though he is just not ready to learn about Chi...which not everyone who practices martial arts knows or understands the meaning of it. Like I said previously I will probably just stick to traditional methods of teaching for the mean time.


I have been a practitioner of the Martial Arts (Kempo) for over 25 years myself. I was taught 'Old School' by a very educated gentleman from Beijing who had a nice, simple, well run dojo. During this time I had the privilege of learning alot of the 'classic' peripherals of the Martial Arts - Chi, Anatomy & Physiology, 'Toughening up', etc. And I saw some amazing things attributed to Chi energy.

It was explained to me that the best way to develop this energy is to focus it as coming up ^ from the Earth - through your heel(s) - up and out of whatever strike you are doing at that time. It takes many years of constant practice (and a deep knowledge of self discipline) to accomplish the pushing/moving/ or disturbing of objects (people) with just this energy - especially at a distance. I have felt it being used and honestly... I could not control nor believe what I was 'hit' with.

Being as advance as you are you may want to just begin your student with the basics/fundamentals - and slowly work the proper energy/focus part in as you go. No amount of energy expelled will be of use to him or anyone unless it is properly focused.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 02:16 PM
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Originally posted by cindymars
I studied QiGong for several years. Have him stand like a tree for a mere 5 minutes and he will know what Qi/Chi is.

The following is my opinion as a member participating in this discussion.

Easy to advise, more difficult to do. How do you position the feet? Is the pelvis relaxed or tucked? How are the arms suspended; wrists or shoulders?

How is the head suspended? Where is the tongue? Are the knees bent; at what angle?

Finally, how do you direct the Qi? How do you root? It's not easy being green


As an ATS Staff Member, I will not moderate in threads such as this where I have participated as a member.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 02:21 PM
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True that to all of that but if it interest him he could check it out further.
You clearly know how to do it, so go ahead on and it explain it. I am at work and cant spead a lot of time posting. I just know from doing it that you can certainly feel Chi.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 02:29 PM
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I agree regarding the 'Westerners' being let into the Chinese MA circle(s). It has been difficult to find 'traditional' teachings nowadays with Power Rangers, Ninja Turtles, Mixed MA/UFC, etc clgging up students minds before they are even exposed to a dojo.
Sometimes that mystique that only the Asian cultures can teach/know of Chi/Qi makes it difficult to move forward in the thinking. Although they did pretty much invent Martial Arts (as we know it today). They did not invent the energy of Chi/Qi. I have always believed it to be in-born. An example would be -
Have you ever attempted to pick up a young child... say a toddler... and you suddenly find that the child feels like it weighs 100lbs more than it really does? That is because the child... more subconsciously than not... is using it's Chi focus to remain grounded and not allow you to lift them. That is one use of Chi aside from the obvious 'fighting' or demonstration type.

But to actually explain the scientific principle behind this... THAT I am not sure how to do. And I think that it is different for each person on how they perceive the energy and they draw and project it. I know many practitioners and I don't think I have heard the same explanation twice.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 02:40 PM
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It's slightly not the same thing, but is related. I know there have been studies done in France where the meridians within the body have been traced by using radioactive material introduced through acupuncture points. The classical meridians of Chinese Acupuncture are the pathways that Chi follows within the body, but how to illustrate them on the outside is another issue. It's an interesting thing to look at though.

Will try to find a link for you, but I think it's quite easy to google...

Cait



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 02:43 PM
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reply to post by cindymars
 


The classic method is called Silk Reeling.

The aim is to bring up energy from the ground and into the arms, without using the shoulders. Tense shoulders stop the Qi.

It's impossible to explain much in a forum post, even harder to find a qualified teacher.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 02:47 PM
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Originally posted by caitlinfae
It's slightly not the same thing, but is related. I know there have been studies done in France where the meridians within the body have been traced by using radioactive material introduced through acupuncture points. The classical meridians of Chinese Acupuncture are the pathways that Chi follows within the body, but how to illustrate them on the outside is another issue. It's an interesting thing to look at though.

Will try to find a link for you, but I think it's quite easy to google...

Cait


Thank you Cait.

Yes... Science can actually see how the body uses it's energy and from where it originates. That all ties in with another topic (which is currently moving around ATS) - Chakras. From what I was always told was that Chi/Qi is a very important part of everyone's being and without it we would not function. The projected Chi/Qi is us manifesting THAT energy and sending outward... almost like a wave. Many people think that all this stuff is just nuts though.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 03:00 PM
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reply to post by dhunter
 


One of the keys is looking for ways that your Qi is blocked.

Typically it's a movement, posture or exercise where you're making repetitive motions. You search for the 'flow' and make sure you are aligned and your energies are moving smoothly. In that sense it's about efficient motion.

When you look at new martial arts students, some of them look almost brittle, trying to do various moves. Shoulders tensed and pulled up, head in a tilted position, hips not square and pelvis not tucked.

As far as moving the energy of Qi, think of how a cat ripples his fur, or how a horse quivers to shake off flies. Those are the muscles you may be trying to coordinate and bring under control.

Take a Chinese finger trap:



When you pull it, your fingers are trapped. But when you push the end together the woven tube becomes very hard and will suport a lot of weight. That's a good way to think of it.

2 cents.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 03:06 PM
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That is actually really cool but know I am talking about this one.

Zhan Zhuang
en.wikipedia.org...

I also loved a movement called "Lift Chi up, pull Chi Down".



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 03:10 PM
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You are correct there Badge01. Many new students.. even young kids.. are tense and like boards when it comes to stretching or beginning class. It may be attributed to the age we live in - where video games rule and there are limited physical demands on most people. They call that "progress" - but it hurts ones health both physically and mentally. I find that many students cannot even sit still enough to focus... let alone meditate enough to produce an energy flow.



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 03:20 PM
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Originally posted by Badge01

Originally posted by cindymars
I studied QiGong for several years. Have him stand like a tree for a mere 5 minutes and he will know what Qi/Chi is.

Easy to advise, more difficult to do. How do you position the feet? Is the pelvis relaxed or tucked? How are the arms suspended; wrists or shoulders?

How is the head suspended? Where is the tongue? Are the knees bent; at what angle?

Finally, how do you direct the Qi? How do you root? It's not easy being green



To answer your question:
Feet in wuji a shoulders weighth apart
Pelvis slightly tucked
Arms vary depending
the head like your spine is connected thru the crown of your head on a chain out into the universe
tongue middle upper palete heart position
knees slightly bent
You send roots from the soles of your feet like a tree deep into the earth pulling up Chi from Earths core and into the lower dantian


But hey you know how to do it. LOL

[edit on 3-10-2008 by cindymars]



posted on Oct, 3 2008 @ 03:35 PM
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Originally posted by Taledus

My cousin, 14yo, young male, who has been dealing with the typical boy aggressions found in some of the youth today, is in need of direction. His parents are recently divorced, and he has seemed to turn towards being an @** to most people around...except me. I discussed with him about beginning training, which he was interrested (who doesn't want to learn how to maim people
). Just kidding. So I am doing my best to guide him with his path, which I did explain the trials and difficulties he will be faced with in learning from me.

From your statement the key point as to where he is at spiritually is evident from what you say about his attitude towards people and because he is going through emotion turmoil from parents divorce as well as puberty he is already ‘overloaded inside’ with new emotions and concepts. Today’s Youth have a lot more to sift through before they can accept simpler ‘ways’ of thinking or being. Even though he has a gazillion questions from the onset, forcing answers before their time isn’t natural growth.
Why not set boundaries with the questions he asks? Ask him to research the ‘topic of query’ himself and come back to you??

I agree with you, sticking with what you’re initially teaching him, traditional methods – drills, technique, focus and discipline needed to master the physical, then, move to the spiritual.

The most beautiful lesson (IMO) from martial arts is that of process. Everything has a process.

In a couple weeks he will really start to understand his body through the training (and the aches!) and, as he is put to test in life situations where he starts to display a conscious choice of reaction he will naturally start to notice things about energy. He will feel the energy between you as the trust builds also.

While he is not aware or in control of his emotions his ego can mistake martial arts for a reason to get into conflict or he could mistake an explanation of Chi in Martial Arts for super hero powers! (obviously, worse case scenarios’). These misunderstanding type views would distort the meaning of your lessons and could set his learning back to any degree he doesnt get it.
When his attitude towards others changes from ie aggression to understanding then its likely his intentions are in the right place for more energy work. Let him naturally deconstruct his own ego with the training. Describing/knowing energy isn’t necessarily something to be done with words/thought rather than Experiential Learning.

Anyway its an awesome thing you are doing.


Have the best day
themuse





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