Mystery Flt 77 ?Fuselage? Part at Pentagon

Not sure about your exact point, I did not say that I was an ALPA investigator in the 9/11 debacle.....My point was simply that with some small background in airline a/c and accident investigations, there is normally pieces/parts in that kind of destruction that still show part numbers that can be traced. I am not refuting the questions in this thread, just joining those that are asking what are these ridiculous pictures and where are the pieces of the alleged aircraft?

ALPA is usually an "invited party" to airline accident investigations and USUALLY the relationship is cordial between us, NTSB and any LE organizations. To your post, if I understand the point you are trying to make, ALPA investigators are not contributors to final NTSB reports. I have major concerns that ALPA appears to have been excluded from an airline accident......That raises my antenna....

[edit on 6-10-2008 by habu71]

posted by habu71
Not sure about your exact point, I did not say that I was an ALPA investigator in the 9/11 debacle.....My point was simply that with some small background in airline a/c and accident investigations, there is normally pieces/parts in that kind of destruction that still show part numbers that can be traced. I am not refuting the questions in this thread, just joining those that are asking what are these ridiculous pictures and where are the pieces of the alleged aircraft?

ALPA is usually an "invited party" to airline accident investigations and USUALLY the relationship is cordial between us, NTSB and any LE organizations. To your post, if I understand the point you are trying to make, ALPA investigators are not contributors to final NTSB reports. I have major concerns that ALPA appears to have been excluded from an airline accident......That raises my antenna....

Thanks for your reply. No, my point was how a normal aircraft crash investigation would have been conducted at the Pentagon. I'm sure you have some good observations in that area.

In fact no experienced aircraft crash investigators were allowed at the Pentagon alleged crash site nor were any ALPA investigators. The FBI was given sole authority over the Pentagon by pResident Dubya. That is exactly why not one single piece of alleged aircraft debris was positively and publicly identified. In the photos, we see no evidence tags or any sign of professionalism. Not one single serial number or maintenance record number was identified and released publicly. There was no aircraft crash investigation; just a huge cover-up.

Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret)
Licensed commercial pilot. Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority. Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College. 34-year Air Force career.

Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic.

Essay:
"In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. ...

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. …

With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. …

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history."
patriotsquestion911.com...

(most of this is not directed at anyone in particular. the use of the word 'you' is purely rhetorical)

Probability suggests but does not prove. You cannot prove for absolute certain a missile did not hit the pentagon. You cannot prove I don't illegally breed kangaroos in my home because you really don't know where I live. The details are murky and thus speculation is easy. The terrorists, btw, probably love the conspiracy stuff, they love the uneasiness in a country where a large percentage of the population thinks the government may have been involved.

See where we head when we ask for absolute proof? I never claimed that there was absolute proof only maybes and conclusions based upon observation. To determine absolute physical proof you would first have to prove that the universe is all there is to existence and then search the entire universe and all aspects for proof. Absolute proof is not possible.

But the people on this forum are not asking for that much, only a number that would identify it as flight 77.

Why would they plant plane parts while everyone was watching in broad daylight? How could over 100 eyewitnesses, not to mention those who have not been interviewed, lie? To say they were all paid off, no one came forward and the parts were planted in front of everyone is an absurd alternative. Why did no one talk about planted plane parts? Because the entirity of the Washington DC area was paid off! These answers are absurd and here the simpler explanation is the answer.

A plane, flight 77 crashed into the pentagon. If the government had wanted to use a global hawk or a cruise missile and had years to plan it, people would report on the global hawk or missile that hit the pentagon, not a 757! The government could still blame a missile strike on the terrorists. The concept of such a transparent false flag operation is absurd and not conducive to progress only arguments going nowhere and mud.

Does the guy with the purple lord of doom want proof, as in evidence? The evidence is inconclusive to my knowledge. What I do know is that based on the id by the C130 that saw it crash. The DNA of those who died on the plane was positively identified. Those people bought tickets for flight 77. Their DNA turned up at the pentagon in the wreckage. They were part of the package that was flight 77. They are the positive id. But...if I posted the reports of this, you could say that it was fabricated. You could say that they were landed elsewhere and killed and their DNA was taken or that everyone was just lying. No proof there but then again, the burden of proof is incorrectly placed on me. With your mentality nothing can be proven unless it meets criteria you set. With so much uncertainty on your part, the simplest explanation is the best.

Why would you be convinced even if it was flight 77? You could still make a conspiracy out of it.

Hmm, lets see... 757 parts everywhere, DNA from all aboard AA77 identified in the wreckage, personal effects of many on board identified, the black boxes from AA77 in the wreckage, AA logo clearly visible on some pieces,

But seriously, the SR71 blackbird is an awesome plane.

[edit on 7-10-2008 by newagent89]

posted by newagent89
The terrorists, btw, probably love the conspiracy stuff, they love the uneasiness in a country where a large percentage of the population thinks the government may have been involved.

What 'terrorists'? Do you mean those 19 dudes who couldn't stay out of girlie bars and who couldn't keep their mouths shut? Do you mean that alCIAda dude working out of a cave, Tim Osman? You know, Usama, the guy who repeatedly stated publicly he had nothing to do with 9-11, the CIA asset trained for Afghanistan, who all the later fake videos with lousy actors were made for? Osama, that wanted guy who is NOT wanted for 9-11 because the FBI has NO physical evidence? You know, those 19 'hijackers' with not one single piece of physical evidence that they ever boarded even one of the four 9-11 aircraft? The red bandana dudes?

posted by newagent89
Why would they plant plane parts while everyone was watching in broad daylight? How could over 100 eyewitnesses, not to mention those who have not been interviewed, lie?

Because they knew they could? Because they knew they would have lots of people just like you who would not bother to diligently research the facts and available evidence, and would boldly defend them with not a clue? Because they knew the majority of Americans were easily fooled by military psyop campaigns proven at Waco and Oklahoma City? The boob tube is an amazing mezmerising instrument and the majority of Americans have their faces stuck right in it, sucking up the misinformation and other goodies.

What 100 'witnesses'? Were you aware that some of those 'witnesses' have no names and cannot possibly be traced and interviewed? Did you know that some of those 'witnesses' were 10 or more miles away at their homes or offices and giving 2nd or 3rd hand accounts? Did you know that several 'witnesses' were at the Reagan passenger platform and could not possibly have seen anything because the high rise buildings of Crystal City blocked their view? Then we have a dozen or so USA Today and other journalists who would lie to keep their fancy jobs. Then we have Bobby Eberle (GOPUSA) and Gary Bauer (professional NeoCON liar).

Not much left is there? Oh yeah we have the hundreds of witnesses from the Center for Military History, but those are all classified. By FOIA lawsuit, a dozen or so of the interviews were released in 2008, but the names were redacted. Although difficult, the Arlington Cemetary eyewitnesses were found by CIT, and re-interviewed. Those interviews cut the Flight 77 Official Flight Path off at the knees, and now the FAA has released their new video mpg showing the flight path over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo, as testified to by these eyewitnesses.

After we dig through all the clutter and misinformation, we only have a few of the original alleged witnesses left. Has anybody re-interviewed them to determine if the Mainstream Media properly quoted them or even interviewed them at all? Is that a NO? But what about all of the rescue workers? Sure. Got any names. No? Mostly Pentagon employees and gag ordered? Of course they were inside and only saw the aircraft debris after it was planted in all the smoke and confusion. Besides how could a rescue worker determine what the FBI agents carrying aircraft debris around were doing with them? They wanted to save lives; not police the FBI.



Besides it has already been proven beyond any doubt that the actual aircraft flew over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo and could not possibly have struck the light poles and created the official damage path through the Pentagon. No missile or smaller plane struck the Pentagon either because it could not possibly have knocked down 5 light poles with its stubby wings. Explosives needed to be used inside the Pentagon to fully complete the destruction, so the 9-11 planners decided to use ONLY explosives. No aircraft needed except for a decoy aircraft nearby to give the ILLUSION of a crash. The FBI was right there to confiscate all the damning evidence and strongarm any stubborn eyewitnesses. Propaganda and the totally controlled mainstream media and without a clue defenders would do the rest.

posted by newagent89
What I do know is that based on the id by the C130 that saw it crash. The DNA of those who died on the plane was positively identified. Those people bought tickets for flight 77. Their DNA turned up at the pentagon in the wreckage. They were part of the package that was flight 77. They are the positive id.

The C-130 was over 2 minutes away (10 miles) and only saw the Hollywood special effects explosion. Colonel O'Brien could see the daylight glare on the river and initially thought it was at Reagan National.


Alleged DNA locations of Flight 77 passengers
Alleged location of Barbara Olson DNA

The primary suspects controlled the crime scene and the DNA. There was lots of DNA from the targeted Pentagon personnel all over the crime scene. A lot of the alleged 'passenger' DNA was found way up past the Exit Hole. Initially the report was that the aircraft nose cone created the Exit Hole which is comical. Then the embarrassed perps changed it to a landing gear. Since the alleged 'passenger' DNA was inside the fuselage and the landing gear is outside the fuselage and under the wings or under the nose cone, then how did that DNA reach the A&E Drive in that supposedly hot jet fuel burning hell? The latest propaganda is that an explosive fireball created the Exit Hole which demands even more;
"But how did fragile DNA get way out there and survive the heat?"

Answer: It didn't. No aircraft crashed into the Pentagon.
It was all a military psyops mission and you were had.




[edit on 10/7/08 by SPreston]

I apologise for quoting out of order, but clearly SPrestons argument does not hold up

Originally posted by exponent
Are you really trying to suggest that the FAA believes the damage at The Pentagon was faked?

Originally posted by SPreston
I don't know what they believe.

This is what you say at the end of your post, but the beginning of your post says this:

Originally posted by SPreston
It shows that the FAA believes that the aircraft over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo eyewitness accounts are accurate.

You are obviously not being consistent here, and your application of logic leaves a lot to be desired. Your continued posting ignores all evidence previously gathered which does not suit your particular theories.

You know what they believe, except when I challenge you on it, then you don't know what they believe. You claim fuselage sections were never riveted, but fail to challenge this occurrence in other non-suspicious aircraft crashes. You claim that passports could not have survived impact, yet fail to explain how other similar items have survived other similar crashes/conditions.

In short, you cannot even keep your own ideas consistent, and I see no point in our further discussion.

reply to post by exponent


Yeah dude, this guy is nuts. He possesses a preconceived notion that the government is out to get him based on his own thoughts on matters. It's the fallacy of inherent suspicion of authority without evidence.

There is already a thread much longer debunking this garbage.

The misinformation and lies come from SPreston and his fantastical delusions. He has no proof, only pictures and stories that he uses to jump to conclusions.

He can make anything he wants the truth because he has no concept of proof or logical reasoning.

He thinks I do not research these things when I have stated that I do.

My problem is that I thought I could influence this guy. I think that he needs to take a look at some other threads and learn some sense.

Classic ATS conspiracy junkie. Pictures that I don't have the full story behind +anything involving the FBI or CIA = conspiacy.

No more evidence or proof that I put out will convince him because he can say that everything was tampered with by FBI agents and everybody was paid off.

Yet his story is bunk because it is so unlikely. The terrorists involved went to strip clubs because they felt like it. They were not the insane radicals you see in videos. Most were cool and calculating professionals.

I am saying, screw this thread. I put out the evidence. There is no misinformation only some confusion on the other side. People can dance with it all they want.

Originally posted by SPreston

In fact no experienced aircraft crash investigators were allowed at the Pentagon alleged crash site

Preston,

Is it your contention that the FBI does not have any "experienced aircraft crash investigators"?

And further, is it your contention that the NTSB was lying when it stated:

The National Transportation Safety Board is providing technical assistance to the Federal Bureau of Investigation, which is the lead agency investigating the terrorist attacks of September 11. At the request of the FBI, the Safety Board has sent investigators with knowledge of aircraft structures and flight recorders to the crash sites in New York, Pennsylvania and at the Pentagon. They are assisting in the search for the cockpit voice recorders and flight data recorders - the so-called “black boxes” - and helping to identify aircraft parts. The NTSB has offered the use of its laboratories to read out any recorders the FBI may find. The Safety Board also dispatched its family affairs specialists to New York and Pennsylvania to advise the FBI and the airlines on providing federal services to the families of the victims of these crimes. Similar assistance is being provided for the crash at the Pentagon. As the crashes of the four airliners on Tuesday are criminal acts, the FBI is the lead investigative agency and will release all information on the progress of the investigation.

Looks like the NTSB was working very closely with the federal agencies who were in charge of the crime scene - another fact about this event that you simply don't like so you do the ol' CT/CIT/PffT shuffle and change the facts to match what you want to hear.

I swear....you guys keep cracking me up!

Originally posted by exponent
I apologise for quoting out of order, but clearly SPrestons argument does not hold up

Originally posted by exponent
Are you really trying to suggest that the FAA believes the damage at The Pentagon was faked?

Originally posted by SPreston
I don't know what they believe. Why don't you ask them?

This is what you say at the end of your post, but the beginning of your post says this:

Originally posted by SPreston
It shows that the FAA believes that the aircraft over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo eyewitness accounts are accurate.

You are obviously not being consistent here, and your application of logic leaves a lot to be desired.

I said "I don't know what they believe. Why don't you ask them?" directly answering your question "Are you really trying to suggest that the FAA believes the damage at The Pentagon was faked?"

The latter statement "It shows that the FAA believes that the aircraft over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo eyewitness accounts are accurate." deals directly with the accuracy of the aircraft over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo eyewitness accounts. That has nothing to do with fakery of damage at the Pentagon. The CIT eyewitnesses, especially those at Arlington Cemetery could not logically be expected to see the FBI agents carrying the aircraft debris around and planting it.



I also stated previously in the exact same post:

posted by SPreston
Yes. The portion of the animation showing the aircraft over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo has been absolutely proven by the honest eyewitness accounts of the witnesses from the Citgo and the witnesses from ANC and Sean Boger in the helipad control tower.

So your pretended indignation and incessant pushing of the proven erroneous nonsense of dishonest NASA scientist Ryan Mackey is immaterial. I could care less what you do because my information and efforts are intended for the use of open-minded persons.

I also stated previously:

The flight path over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo, including the bank to the right, has been proven by the CIT eyewitnesses beyond any doubt.

and:

The honest eyewitness accounts of the CIT over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo eyewitnesses are quite adequate to prove the north flight path, thank you very much. I was just using the video to show that it is quite obvious that the FAA also strongly believes the CIT over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo eyewitness accounts. Support by highly trained aeronautical people within the FAA is greatly appreciated. I expectantly await the FAA soon correcting the remainder of the decoy aircraft flight path and their next video.

Yet somehow no identification of parts by serial # and/or maintenance records. Just mystery parts sitting out in the open for days, never tagged nor identified. One large part has only one photo in existence, and that photo appears on a US Congresswoman's website, instead of on a NTSB crash scene evidence site or FBI crime scene site. It sure appears different than any other aircraft crash site I ever heard of.

It seems the NTSB crash scene investigators must have missed their flight.

Col. George Nelson, MBA, U.S. Air Force (ret)
Licensed commercial pilot. Former U.S. Air Force aircraft accident investigator and airplane parts authority. Graduate, U.S. Air Force War College. 34-year Air Force career.

Licensed airframe and powerplant mechanic.

Essay:
"In all my years of direct and indirect participation, I never witnessed nor even heard of an aircraft loss, where the wreckage was accessible, that prevented investigators from finding enough hard evidence to positively identify the make, model, and specific registration number of the aircraft -- and in most cases the precise cause of the accident. ...

The government alleges that four wide-body airliners crashed on the morning of September 11 2001, resulting in the deaths of more than 3,000 human beings, yet not one piece of hard aircraft evidence has been produced in an attempt to positively identify any of the four aircraft. On the contrary, it seems only that all potential evidence was deliberately kept hidden from public view. …

With all the evidence readily available at the Pentagon crash site, any unbiased rational investigator could only conclude that a Boeing 757 did not fly into the Pentagon as alleged. Similarly, with all the evidence available at the Pennsylvania crash site, it was most doubtful that a passenger airliner caused the obvious hole in the ground and certainly not the Boeing 757 as alleged. …

As painful and heartbreaking as was the loss of innocent lives and the lingering health problems of thousands more, a most troublesome and nightmarish probability remains that so many Americans appear to be involved in the most heinous conspiracy in our country's history."
patriotsquestion911.com...

Originally posted by SPreston
the FBI agents carrying the aircraft debris around and planting it.

What makes you think those are FBI agents?

posted by SPreston
Yes. The portion of the animation showing the aircraft over the Naval Annex and north of the Citgo has been absolutely proven by the honest eyewitness accounts of the witnesses from the Citgo

You mean those federal employees, those members of the Pentagon Police Force, those entrenched members of the M/I Complex whose testimony Craig said you can't trust because they work for the Government? *Those* *honest* witnesses?

Originally posted by Craig, Da Boss
Ok good then you will have to understand how anyone who could be shown to have ties to the M/I complex and is used within the 9/11 propaganda would be implicated in such an internal war crime.

and the witnesses from ANC and Sean Boger in the helipad control tower.

You mean the ANC people who a) either didn't even see the aircraft or b) said they saw it impact? And are you talking about THE Sean Boger? THE Sean Boger who said he watched the aircraft hit the building?

Jeepers....you guys sure do have a strange way of trying to build up your case! Using testimony your own Boss discounts, using testimony from people who can't see what you are claiming and using testimony from someone who directly discounts your claim.

Weird, but whatever! Its your conspiracy!

[edit on 7-10-2008 by pinch]

posted by SPreston
the FBI agents carrying the aircraft debris around and planting it.

posted by pinch Paisley
What makes you think those are FBI agents?

No evidence tags sticking out of their pockets or in their hands, and certainly not on the debris? They are certainly not aircraft crash investigators are they? NTSB crash scene investigators tag everything and bag everything small, and mark its original spot. Who else but the FBI is left, to work a Federal crime scene? Who did Dubya immediately place in charge of the Pentagon crime scene? The FBI? Do you think they are local restaurant head waiters?

Why are they picking it up? Or why are they putting it down? Where are they going to put it? Why is this FBI agent carrying this untagged piece of red letter fuselage and the other untagged piece away from another piece of untagged red letter fuselage? Is he picking it up or putting it down? Do any of those 'witnesses' look concerned with an FBI agent carrying 'untagged' evidence away?

Did he get the untagged pieces of evidence from the van or over by the Hanger wall? Did that light debris land there next to the hanger from the explosion 200 feet away against the wind? Or did somebody place it there untagged and unprotected as crime scene evidence? If so, then why is the FBI agent carrying two pieces away from the pile, still untagged as crime scene evidence?

Is this how the FBI normally conducts a crime scene investigation?

My local hick cops do a better job than that.


Original photo

Originally posted by SPreston

the FBI agents carrying the aircraft debris around and planting it.

You're making crap up again, which is becoming more and more tiresome as you and the other CIT/PffT boys resort to creating a nice fantasy world when you can't find answers to questions.

Truth is you have no clue who those guys were. They could very well be just regular Pentagon employees. When I worked in the building I looked exactly like that - dark trou, white shirt and tie, ID badge tucked into my top pocket when outside the building. If I had been there in that situation, I'd very likely be looking to see what I could do to help. You think that perhaps these guys, federal agents or not, might have been told/directed to start collecting wreckage so it won't get damaged from fire trucks driving up on the perimeter - or so it won't trash tires of rescue vehicles that had to get up close?

Come on, Preston! Come up with another one! They were....pretending it was WW2 and were collecting scrap aluminum to turn in for the war effort!

posted by SPreston
the FBI agents carrying the aircraft debris around and planting it.

posted by pinch
You're making crap up again, which is becoming more and more tiresome as you and the other CIT/PffT boys resort to creating a nice fantasy world when you can't find answers to questions.

Truth is you have no clue who those guys were. They could very well be just regular Pentagon employees. When I worked in the building I looked exactly like that - dark trou, white shirt and tie, ID badge tucked into my top pocket when outside the building. If I had been there in that situation, I'd very likely be looking to see what I could do to help. You think that perhaps these guys, federal agents or not, might have been told/directed to start collecting wreckage so it won't get damaged from fire trucks driving up on the perimeter - or so it won't trash tires of rescue vehicles that had to get up close?

Hmmmmmm. . . . . I wonder . . . . . . .



Fake Firefighters and Military Imposters at the Pentagon After 9/11

Posted by Shoestring
Wednesday, 8 October 2008
Several entries in the Complete 9/11 Timeline (copied below) describe what appear to have been individuals disguised as firefighters or military personnel, who were involved in the rescue and recovery efforts at the Pentagon following the attack there on September 11, 2001. What these individuals were doing is unknown, but possibilities need to be investigated, such as whether they were there to tamper with, plant, or remove evidence. That this may have been the case is given weight by the fact that some people who appeared to be members of the military were witnessed stealing crash debris from in front of the Pentagon.

Fairly early on in the firefighting operation at the Pentagon, what appeared to be a crew of firefighters was seen behaving completely at odds with how firefighters are trained to act. An Arlington County firefighter working on the building's second floor witnessed the crew walking past burning fires, apparently to get to fires elsewhere in the building. But, as authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman have pointed out: "Firefighters are trained never to go through a fire without putting it out, since it might seal off your exit. You might as well walk into a burning room and lock the door behind you."

Then, on September 12, the Defense Protective Service (DPS), which guards the Pentagon, arrested three people at the Pentagon who were dressed as firefighters, but were not firefighters.

Beginning that same day, a couple of firefighters involved in the recovery effort were repeatedly assisted by a mysterious man who appeared to work for the military, but who wore no identifying badge and was known to them only as "Johnny." This man said if the firefighters needed anything from the military, he could help them, and even introduced them to some friends of his who said they worked for Special Forces. But on the evening of September 14, Johnny suddenly disappeared. When the two firefighters asked around, they found that no one at the Pentagon knew who "Johnny" was, and none of the agencies involved in the recovery effort said he worked for them. The two firefighters started to wonder if he'd been an imposter who'd perhaps managed to gain access to the site before security had been tightened there.

The presence of these fake personnel raises the question of why they were at the Pentagon. Were these men just "thrill seekers," as the chief of the DPS has claimed, there for their own misguided reasons? Or could they have been at the site for a more sinister purpose, perhaps as part of a coordinated operation to plant or remove evidence from the crime scene?

This latter possibility has some evidence to support it. Shortly after the attack occurred, DPS officer Lt. Robbie Turner saw people apparently stealing plane debris from the road in front of the Pentagon. Turner has recalled, "We had to try to stop other people from pilfering the wreckage because, believe it or not, there were people--military personnel involved--you know, included, rather, that was picking up the wreckage of the plane from off the highway." Another DPS officer, Roosevelt Roberts Jr., worked during the afternoon and evening of 9/11 at the heliport near where the Pentagon was hit. He has recalled that, in that time, "We had a lot of people vandalizing, stealing evidence."

FAKE FIREFIGHTERS

(Between 11:00 a.m. and 12:00 p.m.) September 11, 2001: Mystery Firefighters Seen Behaving Oddly inside Pentagon
A mysterious fire crew is witnessed inside the Pentagon, behaving completely at odds with how firefighters are trained to act. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 137] Chad Stamps is a firefighter with Rescue 104 of the Arlington County Fire Department. [National Fire and Rescue, 5/2002] Along with his crew, he has been fighting fires on the second floor of the Pentagon's outer E Ring. With fires burning around him, he is astonished to see another crew walk past, carrying two packs of hose line, apparently on its way to fight fires elsewhere in the Pentagon. Describing this incident, authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman will point out: "Firefighters are trained never to go through a fire without putting it out, since it might seal off your exit. You might as well walk into a burning room and lock the door behind you. Yet there they went." Seeing the crew passing by, Stamps thinks, "This is totally disjointed." [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 137] The odd behavior of this crew is perhaps notable because there is at least one reported incident of fake firefighters being caught at the Pentagon following the attack there: On September 12, three people will be arrested who are not firefighters, yet who are dressed in firefighting gear (see September 12, 2001). [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 170]

http ://shoestring911.blogspot.com /2008/10/fake -firefighters-and -military.html

Hmmmmmm. . . . . I wonder . . . . . . .



Fake Firefighters and Military Imposters at the Pentagon After 9/11

September 12, 2001: People Disguised as Firefighters Arrested at Pentagon
The Defense Protective Service (DPS)--the law enforcement agency that guards the Pentagon--arrests three people at the Pentagon who are dressed in firefighting gear but are not firefighters. Further details of who these people are and why they are at the Pentagon are unstated. John Jester, the chief of the DPS, later reflects: "When you have a major event, certain people are like moths around a light bulb. They come to the scene as thrill seekers." Reportedly, incident command, DPS, and FBI officials are worried by the "absence of an effective identification system to control the large number of people that [are passing] through the outer perimeter fence to support firefighting and recovery operations" at the Pentagon. [Goldberg et al., 2007, pp. 170]

MILITARY IMPOSTER

September 12-14, 2001: Apparently Fake Military Official Helps with Pentagon Recovery, then Disappears
A mysterious man, who is initially assumed to be working for the military, assists firefighters involved in the Pentagon recovery efforts, but then disappears without trace and is thought to have been an impostor who had managed to slip inside the Pentagon grounds.
"Johnny" - Arlington firefighter Bob Gray is introduced by his colleague Bobby Beer to a man wearing a hard hat. Beer introduces the man only as "Johnny," and adds, "He's our go-between with PenRen [the Pentagon Renovation Program], and he knows some of the military guys too." Although "Johnny" is not wearing any identifying badge or ID, he seems knowledgeable, appears "taut and serious, with a purposeful military stance," and even introduces Gray and Beer to a couple of friends of his who say they work for Special Forces. Johnny says if Gray and Beer need anything from the military, he can help. As a security perimeter has now been set up around the crash site, Gray assumes Johnny must be there officially. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 367-368]
Disappears - Johnny turns out to be very helpful and assists Gray and Beer repeatedly. But, on the evening of September 14, he suddenly disappears. Gray and Beer ask around, but no one at the Pentagon seems to know exactly who Johnny is or what his last name is, and none of the agencies involved in the recovery effort say he worked for them. Johnny's disappearance appears to follow an error he had made after firefighters discovered two bodies inside the Pentagon's E Ring. Johnny mistakenly called the truck used to remove bodies to the temporary morgue prematurely, before FBI agents had the chance to photograph and document the remains. Gray and Beer start to wonder if Johnny in fact had no official standing, and was an impostor.
Clearance - According to authors Patrick Creed and Rick Newman, "It wasn't unusual at high-profile crime scenes for law-enforcement pretenders to show up and insinuate themselves into the work." Johnny would have required "some kind of clearance to get through the concentric security perimeters that sprung up around the building--unless he'd been inside the wire before security tightened. It was possible that he had wandered in at the very beginning and simply stayed--there was enough food, water, and basic support on the scene to survive for days. Somebody who was determined enough to sleep inside one of the tents, or even on the grass, could easily have bypassed security."
Tighter Security - However, the FBI has now become stricter about security, and is ushering out volunteers and scrutinizing anyone without airtight credentials. Gray and Beer conclude that Johnny may have come to the attention of the FBI when he called the body truck, leading agents to inquire who he was, and this could have prompted his disappearance from the Pentagon. [Creed and Newman, 2008, pp. 416-418]

STEALING EVIDENCE

(After 10:15 a.m.) September 11, 2001: Police See People, Including Military Personnel, Stealing Debris from Pentagon Crash Site
Two Pentagon police officers see people--some of them members of the military--stealing crash debris from in front of the Pentagon. After the Pentagon was hit, Lt. Robbie Turner had been helping the injured at a triage area. When, at around 10:15 a.m., reports are received of a possible second plane heading for the Pentagon (see (10:15 a.m.-10:38 a.m.) September 11, 2001), he sets about evacuating people away from there. As this is going on, he later recalls: "[W]e had to try to collect up evidence, as much of the evidence as we possibly could. Take pictures of it or whatever." However, some people are apparently trying to steal plane debris from the road in front of the Pentagon. According to Turner, "[W]e had to try to stop other people from pilfering the wreckage because, believe it or not, there were people--military personnel involved--you know, included, rather, that was picking up the wreckage of the plane from off the highway as we were running away." [Library of Congress, 12/3/2001] Later on in the day, around 3:00 p.m., another Pentagon police officer, Roosevelt Roberts Jr., is called to the heliport near where the Pentagon was hit, and remains there for the next 13 hours. He will recall that, during this time, "we had a lot of people vandalizing, stealing evidence." He does not specify who these people are, or what this "evidence" is that is being stolen and vandalized. [Library of Congress, 11/30/2001]

http ://shoestring911.blogspot.com /2008/10/fake -firefighters-and -military.html

These guys are wearing gloves while collecting evidence.



Getting larger debris out of the way in a hurry to avoid having firetrucks run over it is another matter. There's a section of fuselage sitting up against the heliport building that was obviously placed there to preserve it.

Just for the record, to me it looks as if the guy in the white shirt with the biggest bag in the big photo is the same guy we saw photographed together with the taxi driver who had his windshield punctured by a long piece of a broken light pole on the highway.

He helped that taxi driver to remove it, without making a scratch on the paint of the hood.
Thus, he was on the scene very early after the impact. Or at the moment of the impact.

Just for the same record, I would like to interview him, if I were a CIT'er.

posted by nh_ee

It looks like the airplane scrap found at aviation boneyards where they strip out the valuable components and parts and the fuselage is merely cut up into small pieces consisting of aluminum to be re smelted into recycled aluminum.

Just like a hollywood screen set. Another prop in the 9/11 Shock and Awe TV show.

Yes, indeed it does.

In fact this alleged Flight 77 part from a 757 at the Pentagon is never mentioned in any official 9-11 report. There is only one photo of this alleged part in existence, and it was photographed by a US Congresswoman on September 13th 2001.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0771539c8c52.jpg[/atsimg]

So where is the official report on this alleged part? Officially exactly what is it and which wing is it from? Or is it from somewhere else or some other aircraft model? Could one of you 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY defenders cough up the official report for this object from your vast sources? Why no other photos of this alleged piece of Flight 77 aircraft debris when it supposedly sat out there in the open in front of the Pentagon for days?

Well I am assuming it was sitting out there for days since it was supposed to be deposited there at 9:37 am on 9-11-2001. Of course since it appears on no other known photos, then maybe it was carried in surreptitiously and planted on the 12th or 13th?

Why no serial number? Was this alleged 757 piece deliberately planted there solely for the visit of a US Congresswoman on September 13th? Is that why it is not mentioned elsewhere with no other photos?

Original Congressman Shelley Berkley Photo

September 13, 2001 -- (Washington, D.C.) U.S. Rep. Shelley Berkley (NV-1) was one of the first members of Congress to survey the damage sustained at the Pentagon. Berkley received disaster relief briefings from military and law enforcement officials. Upon returning to the Capitol, Berkley donated blood for disaster victims and encouraged all Americans to visit their local blood bank.

Source

[edit on 10/17/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by SPrestonHow come Congresswoman Shelley Berkley was apparently the only person in the entire world possessing a photo of this mystery object?

Amazing. Every time you think these Troothers have cornered the market on a bag of hammers, they toss another one in there.

I didn't know, preston, that you personally have seen every photo ever taken at the Pentagon. Every single one. EVERY single one. Otherwise you couldn't come up with this absolutely inane and absurd claim that there are "no other photos" of this piece of wreckage.

What else ya got?

Originally posted by SPreston
How come Congresswoman Shelley Berkley was apparently the only person in the entire world possessing a photo of this mystery object?

posted by trebor451

Amazing. Every time you think these Troothers have cornered the market on a bag of hammers, they toss another one in there.

I didn't know, preston, that you personally have seen every photo ever taken at the Pentagon. Every single one. EVERY single one. Otherwise you couldn't come up with this absolutely inane and absurd claim that there are "no other photos" of this piece of wreckage.

What else ya got?

Why don't you dig into your vast treasure trove of insider photos trebor, and show us additional photos of this alleged Flight 77 aircraft part.

It was surrounded by yellow tape when Congresswoman Berkley was given the guided tour on 9-13-2001. Perhaps you can guide us to an official FBI report on its actual description and original placement on the Flight 77 aircraft.

Surely you have access to this information trebor since you are such a devoted defender of the 9-11 OFFICIAL STORY.

Isn't it odd that this clear photo of an alleged Flight 77 aircraft part did not make the official US Department of Defense Pentagon 911 book, and did not even deserve mention in that book nor the official Pentagon Building Performance Report?

Pentagon 911 book

Surely a real living aircraft investigator with years of experience could have looked closely at this aircraft part which appears to be a wing flap, produced a serial number, and proven beyond any doubt that it came off a 757 or specifically Flight 77 tail # N644AA.

I wonder why that did not happen? Perhaps because the part was planted and came off some other aircraft in a boneyard, and aircraft investigators were kept far far away?

Would that be your guestimate trebor, or do you have some other song and dance?

Pentagon Building Performance Report

Why is that trebor? Were there other planted aircraft parts not deserving mention?

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/0771539c8c52.jpg[/atsimg]


Original Congresswoman Shelley Berkley Photo

Sure do not see that aircraft part in this room in Italy.

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/10d8404e5f5b.jpg[/atsimg]

[atsimg]http://files.abovetopsecret.com/images/member/63b7387179af.jpg[/atsimg]

[edit on 10/17/09 by SPreston]

Originally posted by SPreston
Why don't you dig into your vast treasure trove of insider photos trebor, and show us additional photos of this alleged Flight 77 aircraft part.

In another thread, trebor has informed me that just because he's a self-alleged 25 year veteran 'civil servant' with the DoD, it doesn't mean that he has access to evidence that would prove his story.

You're asking the wrong person, SPreston. trebor can't tell you anything about this unidentifed scrap wreckage. He'll claim that it's from the alleged Flight AA77 but he will not produce proof for his claim.

Let's start the timer to see which official government story believer will be the first one to give us some official government documentation about that unidentified scrap wreckage.