Holocaust Denier Arrested

Originally posted by rufusdrak
So seems a tad unfair that the holocaust believers are allowed to write books about it and therefore NOT 'keep it to themselves' as you said, yet deniers are not allowed this same right.

You are right it is unfair. But if your living in a country, you are expected to follow the laws of that country.

Originally posted by Dock6
Well, I know an entire FAMILY .. extended family .. who openly deny the holocaust and the industry it's bred. And THEY have never been arrested.

In fact, they would LAUGH if anyone attempted to lay a finger on them

Because they are jews .. jews from Poland and Russia. They lived in Europe throughout almost the entirety of WW2.

It was THEY who informed me .. and provided black and white evidence .. that the jews were claiming 6 million jews had died ... in World War ONE in addition to WW2.

Furthermore, they travel to Europe reasonably frequently, yet have NEVER been 'arrested' for their views.

Wonder why that is ?

Interesting, if I had to concoct a theory on the spot I would say the following:

The zionist/jewish establishment that run these governments and enforce these laughable laws are afraid to give media coverage to an eminent Jewish family that itself is denying the holocaust as obviously this would make them look quite bad even if they arrest the family and do whatever it is they do. They would much rather sweep this jewish family under the rug because they don't want to give the impression to the world that there are actually Jews out there as well that deny the holocaust, they rather keep the image of holocaust deniers as some sort of inhuman anti-semitic non-jewish barbarians and bigots, and if they gave media attention to one of their OWN doing that then that would sort of discredit their own cause.

reply to post by redhatty



You're dodging the question: WHY has ONE religious group, comprising a very small percentage of the world's population, been able to connive a situation where various nations have been coerced into making it 'illegal' to state one's opinions regarding that specific religious group and it's claims ?

Originally posted by redhatty

Originally posted by rufusdrak
So seems a tad unfair that the holocaust believers are allowed to write books about it and therefore NOT 'keep it to themselves' as you said, yet deniers are not allowed this same right.

You are right it is unfair. But if your living in a country, you are expected to follow the laws of that country.

Is that what happened though? I was sort of under the impression he published most of this work whilst in other countries, etc, and was nabbed only at the airport of one of the countries that enforces these laws because he had a warrant out for his arrest by the whole EU police. So it seemed to me that even if you were to publish holocaust denial material ELSEWHERE if you pass through one of these countries and identified as a denier you still get arrested. Am I wrong?

Yeah I'd like to know why holocaust denial is against the law as well. If people want to be stupid why is there a law against this?

edit: Oh and anti semitic literature is against the law as well? well I never.

It's pure irony to me that a law which persecutes nazi sympathizers is in itself a nazi-ish thought crime law.

[edit on 1-10-2008 by unnamedninja]

Originally posted by unnamedninja
Yeah I'd like to know why holocaust denial is against the law as well. If people want to be stupid why is there a law against this?

It's pure irony to me that a law which persecutes nazi sympathizers is in itself a nazi-ish thought crime law.

You gotta love the irony of that. I was just going to make a comment of that sort. The whole concept of the holocaust was brutal nazi repression and yet they're using the same tactics now to enforce their own views.

I just feel that there should at least be some consistency. If you are going to make holocaust denial illegal then make denial of ANYTHING that ever happened illegal as well, and make anti-semitism illegal but also make anti-black anti anything illegal. Either that or make it all LEGAL so that anyone can voice their damn opinion, long live the 1st amendment and god bless America! Home of the brave and land of the free (for those that aren't in a fema camp, political convention, or on a red list).

[edit on 1-10-2008 by rufusdrak]

Originally posted by Dock6
You're dodging the question: WHY has ONE religious group, comprising a very small percentage of the world's population, been able to connive a situation where various nations have been coerced into making it 'illegal' to state one's opinions regarding that specific religious group and it's claims ?

I'm not dodging anything, I answered the question posed by the OP. You are trying to start a different discussion. I don't engage in bigotry of any kind.

Countries with laws against holocaust denial:

Austria
Belgium
Czech Republic
France
Germany
Israel
Lithuania
Poland
Romania
Slovakia
Switzerland

Source:

In Canada and Western Europe, Holocaust deniers have been successfully prosecuted under racial defamation or hate crimes laws. In the United States, however, the First Amendment guarantees the right of free speech, regardless of political content. Nonetheless, though the First Amendment guarantees Holocaust deniers the right to produce and distribute their propaganda, it in no way obligates newspapers or other media outlets to provide them with a forum for their views.

Just a little info....bolded text is mine.

Originally posted by -0mega-
Denying the holocaust isn't illegal at all.

However:

The arrest warrant accuses 64-year-old Toben of publishing material on the internet "of an anti-Semitic and/or revisionist nature" in Australia, Germany and other countries.

good point. you are allowed to deny the holocaust, but only mentally. You are not allowed to discuss that opinion with anyone else. See, we're still free!

Originally posted by rufusdrak
Is that what happened though? I was sort of under the impression he published most of this work whilst in other countries, etc, and was nabbed only at the airport of one of the countries that enforces these laws because he had a warrant out for his arrest by the whole EU police. So it seemed to me that even if you were to publish holocaust denial material ELSEWHERE if you pass through one of these countries and identified as a denier you still get arrested. Am I wrong?

I don't know all the details, the article only states

The arrest warrant accuses 64-year-old Toben of publishing material on the internet "of an anti-Semitic and/or revisionist nature" in Australia, Germany and other countries.

If the charges on the warrant are correct, then he did violate the laws of some countries. We are not told enough of the details to make a determination, but that is what a trial is for.

I agree it's hard to skirt that narrow line, please let's not start an opinion thread..I know for a FACT there are people sitting here just itching to state their actual OPINION on this matter including myself as some of you can probably SURMISE what it is that I think of zionism or the holocaust itself, but that's not what this thread is about it's about a LAW not an event. Why is this LAW restricting people from voicing their opinions on ONE tiny narrow issue when there are hundreds of other things equally as deplorable as an alleged holocaust yet one can deny them with full impunity.

Originally posted by scientist

Originally posted by -0mega-
Denying the holocaust isn't illegal at all.

However:

The arrest warrant accuses 64-year-old Toben of publishing material on the internet "of an anti-Semitic and/or revisionist nature" in Australia, Germany and other countries.

good point. you are allowed to deny the holocaust, but only mentally. You are not allowed to discuss that opinion with anyone else. See, we're still free!

Most excellent point sir, you have re-established my faith in humanity, or at least Europe!

This is quite simple. There are laws that say if you dont accept the governments accounts of the holocaust and other issues of WW2 then you will be arrested. Whew Im glad I didnt have to accept my governments account of Iraq, or the economy, or Iran, or Enron, or Vietnam, or any other of the millions of lies Ive been told by my government. Germany land of the free?

Originally posted by skeptic1

In Canada and Western Europe, Holocaust deniers have been successfully prosecuted under racial defamation or hate crimes laws. In the United States, however, the First Amendment guarantees the right of free speech, regardless of political content. Nonetheless, though the First Amendment guarantees Holocaust deniers the right to produce and distribute their propaganda, it in no way obligates newspapers or other media outlets to provide them with a forum for their views.

Just a little info....bolded text is mine.

That's hilarious. How does denying an EVENT constitute 'racial defamation'?

That seems to be implying that you're a racist if you deny an event. So by that legal logic I'm legally a racist because I deny the Apollo Moon Landings so I hate all white people and all Americans.

reply to post by rufusdrak


I personally have no problem with discussing the issue in public. It might be not that sensitive to people who went through this event - but since the essence is questioned i think that it need to be done.
As for racial/defamation stuff - here is a quote from the main page of Adelaide institute that this guy runs - i had no stomach to dig in this ..hmm... stuff deeper:

Antisemitism is a disease. You catch it from Jewish behavior.

You can say that it is nothing, and that nobody has any right to arrest people for their racist views/opinions - not if it is against Jews or Germans.
But here is a thing - if holocaust did happen (i see no reason to question it - but others do and it is their right)- it started from similar calls in small brochures. No internet then. You can see in this post ideas that Israel is nothing without holocaust lie - even if idea to create Jewish homeland precedes state of Israel by almost a century. And British government promised to help in creating it decades before this tragedy. Official Israel downplayed holocaust story until 1970s. It was considered shame , only few stories of uprisings were mentioned.
My semi-rant might have little to do with issue if arresting this person was moral/justified - because it is certainly legal. But it might have everything to do with showing why possibly this stuff is done to prevent rerun of same racial outbreak.

Maybe this issue is in need of clarification


Judaism is a religion


Jews do not comprise a 'race'


Therefore, it is impossible to 'racially discriminate' against jews


Just as it's impossible to 'racially discriminate' against Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, Quakers, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, Scientologists

reply to post by ZeroKnowledge


I nor many others have any problem discussing our views in public as you said as well, but that is not the point, this thread is not a public forum for any view you want it's a very specific forum for the particular topic/subject at hand which in this case is the LAW against holocaust denial and the person who was arrested in this story, so to discuss opinions here would be inappropriate. Although if someone were to open another such thread then I would be happy to discuss mine.

But anyway onto what you said, it just doesn't hold any water. There were KKK murders and lynchings yet white supremacists are still allowed to voice their opinions on the internet and even publically they're allowed demonstrations to this day in the u.s. Yes this is in the U.S. only but that's my point is that I feel that's the way it should be.

Secondly your argument is flawed in one particular aspect: you claim that law against holocaust denial is to prevent a repeat of a holocaust, but the whole argument of holocaust denial is that there WAS NO holocaust so there should be no law to prevent such a thing.
I don't think it can be argued that there has been RACISM against jews of course, leading up to and DURING the war but that is the same for ANY race, there was racism against blacks as well by Hitler/Germans but how come blacks don't also have protection by law against denial of any sort or racial defamation the same way that jews do?
Maybe in Europe jews play a more predominant role as blacks aren't as largely represented in population but maybe I am wrong, I don't know the population comparison of black people and jewish people in Europe.

For goodness sake !


Jews are not a 'race' !

Judaism is simply a religion

Originally posted by Dock6
Maybe this issue is in need of clarification


Judaism is a religion


Jews do not comprise a 'race'


Therefore, it is impossible to 'racially discriminate' against jews


Just as it's impossible to 'racially discriminate' against Christians, Muslims, Buddhists, Jains, Quakers, Methodists, Baptists, Mormons, Scientologists

Well it's not as clear cut for the reason that a Jew is described or technically defined (I think) as both a person of the Judaic faith OR as an ETHNICITY. Now ethnicity is not the same as a race, at least I don't think it is but I'm just pointing out that the word JEWISH has more meanings than just a Christian for example. A christian is just a member of the christian RELIGION whereas a JEW (as far as I know..can anyone correct me?) can be a person who is ethnically JEWISH but does not follow the Jewish religion of JUDAISM. Meaning a Jew can be a Christian in a sense...this is what I THINK is right unless someone can correct me.

However that still does not constitute a 'race' but maybe 'racial defamation' law also relates to 'ethnic defamation/discrimination'.

Originally posted by Dock6
For goodness sake !


Jews are not a 'race' !

Judaism is simply a religion

Ok sorry I should have said DISCRIMINATION against Jews, in my post, of which there was some in Europe but there has been DISCRIMINATION of MANY other ethnicities, races, religions and what have you. Plus read my post, Jewish may not be a RACE but it is to my knowledge considered an ETHNICITY not just a RELIGION.