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Originally posted by shermanium
that blog is interesting, but beware, there are no cites to anything resembling sources.
It costs roughly $3-$5 to fill a barrel of oil. So there is a huge mark-up on oil per barrel. What Lindsay Williams says is that OPEC does not set the price per barrel that they buy at. The price is dictated by the "middle men". The middle men are the IMF and the World bank. They are basically the wholesalers and they make a rediculous amount of money out of it. The price of petrol basically is a tax. When the IMF and the World Bank do things like forgive third world debt, it is subsidised at the gas station pumps.
He also says that there are two very large shelves in and off Alaska but these are kept fairly secret. Reason being is that there is a deal in place where the IMF and World Bank purchase foreign oil for the US domestic market. The caveat of these purchases is that the customer in turn purchases US debt with some of the proceeds from the oil sales. If the IMF and World Bank were to purchase oil from the Alaskan fields and sell to the US public then the customer countries may be inclined to offload some or all of their investments in US debt.
So basically, the IMF and the World Bank control the oil industry. However, Iran, Venezuela and I think Russia are "doing their own thing" which bothers the PTB. Iran has apparently threatened to flood the market with cheap oil by a certain date. Not sure when that date is but would not be surprised if this happens late Jan early Feb.
The Iranian Oil Bourse (Persian: بورس نفت ایران ) International Oil Bourse, Iran Petroleum Exchange or Oil Bourse in Kish (IOB; the official English language name is unclear) is a commodity exchange which opened on February 17, 2008,. It was created by cooperation between Iranian ministries and other state and private institutions. The IOB is intended as an oil bourse for petroleum, petrochemicals and gas in various currencies, primarily the euro and Iranian rial and a basket of other major currencies. The geographical location is at the Persian Gulf island of Kish which is designated by Iran as a free trade zone.
During 2007, Iran asked its petroleum customers to pay in non-dollar currencies. By December 8, 2007, Iran reported to have converted all of its oil export payments to non-dollar currencies. 
The Kish Bourse was officially opened in a videoconference ceremony on February 17, 2008, despite last minute disruptions to the internet services to the gulf regions.
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[ldlework] Because people like you convince them to make bad purchasing decisions.
[oyate] there you go tmaddox
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[oyate] people are selling these "get rich quick with hotdogs" e-books and a lot of unqise people buy in and face dissapointment
[oyate] unwise people that is
[RustyShackleford] If anyone could be convinced to buy crap, then thats what they need!
[RustyShackleford] next time, they wont!
[ldlework] RustyShackleford, that's absurd assement.
[reinhardt] hey all
[oyate] Rusty, who ever gave you the idea i sell a crap product?
[RustyShackleford] what about the PET ROCK!
[oyate] hi reinhart
[ldlework] The fact that they wouldn't buy twice implies they DID NOT NEED crap product.
[RustyShackleford] made millions!
[RustyShackleford] and that was crap
[oyate] bingo Idle
[deacon] hya reinhardt
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[oyate] dude, what's wrong with pet rocks? i think it's genius
[reinhardt] 32 users? cool
[RustyShackleford] I really dont mean all of this that im saying, you are just making me laugh so hard! LOL
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[RustyShackleford] I just keep it going!
[ldlework] oyate I don't subscribe to the idea that pet rocks were a crap product. They were an exploration of where society was at the time.
[RustyShackleford] there you go, your learning!
[ldlework] RustyShackleford, you can try to get out of being a terrible scam artist but I don't think you will succeed.
[ldlework] You have painted a very sorrowful picture for yourself.
[RustyShackleford] thats cool ldlework!
[oyate] check it out. they didn't sell anything but a rock. no warranty implied. it was just clever marketing. and if you are clever enough to sell people rocks you have my respect
[RustyShackleford] Im still laughing!
[ldlework] You run ontop of a system similar to the corrupt political system in which we fight agasint and that is a corrupt system based on greed. You RustyShackleford have shown nothing but pure unadultered greed in everything you say.
[RustyShackleford] OYATE, my point in this whole conversation!
[RustyShackleford] Some people like crap and will buy crap if marketed properly!!!!!!
[ldlework] Exactly what someone like you would say.
[RustyShackleford] There will always be a market for CRAP!
[oyate] serious. Q: "what are you selling?" A: "rocks". Q: "why should i buy a rock from you for $5 when i can pick one up off the ground?" A: "these are pet rocks sir"
[ldlework] And there will always be people like you willing to take advantage of the people in those markets.
[RustyShackleford] I sell smelly crap!
[oyate] Q: "pet rocks? what makes it different from any other rock?" A: nothing. nothing at all
[RustyShackleford] no sell!
[reinhardt] pet rocks was a better business plan than mortgages
[oyate] or "i assure you Sir, our rocks come from the finest pedigrees"
[RustyShackleford] you have to get in the minds of what others want!
[ldlework] oyate, I don't think it was as simple as that. The Pet Rock was a meme. A shared mental experience. Its existance and popularity was spawned from the abusridity of its ownership. People are not as stupid as RustyShackleford would have you believe.
[tmaddox] I was in a store in TN once that sold Tennesse Turd Birds, they were shilacked pieces of poo on tookpicks made to look like birds
[oyate] what people want is a science
[Padrick] oyate, as a long time breeder of rocks i can assure it makes a differencve
[RustyShackleford] There has to be a market for whatever crap you are selling!
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[oyate] lols tmaddox
[tmaddox] they sold a ton of them
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[oyate] way to go Padrick
[tmaddox] they got real popular in the area
[RustyShackleford] good marketing!
[reinhardt] people want 2 b.. controlled
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[oyate] i sold "indian weather predictors" for a while
[RustyShackleford] a stick?
[oyate] it was a rock mounted to a piece of wood with instructions
[RustyShackleford] I love it!
[oyate] if it turns white, it's snowing. if it's wet, it's raining
[RustyShackleford] I want one1
[reinhardt] how do it know?
[ldlework] oyate but that product sells itself from its humor, its novelty. Not because people are stupid and buy # for no reason.
[RTRR76962] good question
[tmaddox] there are all kinds of shops around here in the Ozarks that sells stuff like that
[ldlework] Selling funny products isn't the same as ripping people off by convincing them to invest in a business they cannot manage to operate.
[oyate] here's one of my business concepts that flopped
[RustyShackleford] There are 3 kinds of people:Red Apples, Green Apples, and Rotten Apples!
[ldlework] RustyShackleford you're #ing rotten apple.
[oyate] i called it "Crisis Imaging"
[Asmo] yellow apples are tasty
[RustyShackleford] dont kick him Steve
[tmaddox] be nice
[oyate] remember when it was fashionable to go to parties and talk about your therapist?
[RustyShackleford] Im not offended
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[RustyShackleford] that was funny!
[oyate] this was about mid-80s. everyone HAD to have a therapist to have something to talk about at parties
[tmaddox] I guess but I don't go to parties
[oyate] so i thought "what if you don't have any problems?"
[RTRR76962] r - u changed the site
[oyate] BINGO. with crisis imaging, we can take a minor every day annoyance and turn it into a full blown pathology
[oyate] so you can get help
[oyate] the motto was "before you can get real help, you need a real problem"
[tmaddox] thats great oyate
[reinhardt] a little big changes comin
[exatreide] I like coming to this site, even though I'm a lefty, I enjoy discussion and debate with all of you
[RustyShackleford] Oyate, this subject is very interesting!
[RTRR76962] such as
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[oyate] a lefty? wow. WELCOME LEFTY
[RustyShackleford] by Lefty, does that mean Obama fan?
[oyate] nice to have some diversity
[ldlework] oyate, how do you feel that twisting reality to support the purchase of a product is good? Or beneficial?
[exatreide] Brian Moore fan
[RustyShackleford] oh ok!
[reinhardt] over 2 joombla from wordpress
[tmaddox] thats alright exat I don't consider myself either anymore
[oyate] interesting question Idle. something tells me i should say yes without reservations
[RustyShackleford] www.FreeSC.wordpress.com... thats my blog for bob Conley!
[ldlework] oyate I didn't ask you whether you did or you didn't. I asked how you could.
[oyate] but i have great reservations on that one
[ldlework] Because clearly you do.
[RustyShackleford] Im sure people wanted it!
[ldlework] So I'm wondering how
[oyate] um.....if it makes people laugh and you aren't mis-advertising, what's the harm?
[ldlework] So you do it under the pretense of novelty?
[exatreide] Well.. One thing that us on the left have in common with libertarians. We both hate fascists atleast!
[RTRR76962] which e do we look at?
[ldlework] RustyShackleford shut the hell up. You arnt even in the business of selling products. You're in the business of selling business. So stop pretending to agree with these people because you run an entirely different game.
[reinhardt] it is best not to hate what your leaders call you
[oyate] Idle, would you buy a rock fastened to a piece of wood which is advertised as an indian weather predictor
[RustyShackleford] McDonalds sells businesses!
[oyate] let's just say nobody came back for warranty repairs
[tmaddox] I would oyate
[exatreide] Whats the discussion tonight?
[RustyShackleford] everything exatreide
[RustyShackleford] money, business, politics!
[ldlework] RustyShackleford, based on the premise that the business provides actual product. A business man under normal franchising can depend entirely on his product to support the business. Your model simply cannot!
[oyate] i guess we were talking about money making ideas but got dragged into humor
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[RustyShackleford] very funny!
[exatreide] A businessman relies on his worker to provide the labor required to create the capital
[oyate] Idle, you just shut out the entire retail industry
[RustyShackleford] exatreide, what do you think of Network Marketing?
[ldlework] Retail is supported by the... retail of product!
[oyate] and with it, Idle, you shut out one of the great laws of commerce: buy low, sell high
[reinhardt] ne1 watch 60 min 2 nite?
[ldlework] RustyShackleford, you have to include the private franchsising
[RustyShackleford] everyone can win!
[RustyShackleford] you have to work at it like any business!
[oyate] i'd HATE franchising
[ldlework] Which your mind-controlling upstream forgot to tell you when they told you about Roy Croc and McDonalds is that his franchsing works very differently than the franchising you do now.
[oyate] i like to be my own boss, do things my way and not be bothered
[ldlework] oyate, that's all RustyShackleford does.
[ldlework] He sells franchises under the guise of product resale.
[RustyShackleford] Ray Croc wasnt in business to sell hamburgers, he was in the RealEstate business!
[oyate] well, many people have become wealthy buying franchises from McDonalds and such
[oyate] so there's nothing inherrantly wrong with franchising
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[ldlework] He sits there an lies to his victims and sells all the aspects of the operation that don't really matter until they attend the seminar and they tell them the real gimmick and that is to convince other people to come here and franchise underneath them so that they can pay them royalties
[ldlework] oyate, no public franchising makes snese
[oyate] if this is true, then Rusty is wrong
[ldlework] To franchise a mcdonalds makes sense because
[RustyShackleford] I never lie to people that want to get into business to make money!
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[RustyShackleford] I dont have to!
[ldlework] You are obtaining mindshare and business processes
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[oyate] however, i would not accuse someone of this unless i was sure of my facts
[ldlework] But when you franchise from Rusty
[ldlework] You run a front business of selling soft drinks
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[ldlework] But you're real business
[ldlework] Is convincing people to start their own front business
[ldlework] And they pay roalyties of anything they make to you
[RustyShackleford] I wouldnt want you in my business ldlework, I pick and choose!
[ldlework] And you pay a cut to the person above you
[ldlework] So the motivation isn't to sell product
[RTRR76962] r don't watch tv
[ldlework] But to create large base of front operations below you
[ldlework] 80 percent of these businesses will fail
[ldlework] But it doesn't matter
[ldlework] Because you've already gotten them to pay loads of money
[RustyShackleford] I want the best people to be on top of thier own pyramid!
[oyate] RTRR76962 you can pick a name so we know how to refer to you
[reinhardt] r watch tv usually w/volume down
[RustyShackleford] not a slacker
[ldlework] In materials, contracts, seminars, and other charges
[RustyShackleford] slackers dont made money!
[ldlework] RustyShackleford, you don't have to rip people off to be successful
[oyate] the hells i don't Rusty
[RustyShackleford] You have to be very picky!
[ldlework] Why don't you learn a skill RustyShackleford
[oyate] i'm a slacker. i make money
[ldlework] RustyShackleford why don't you contribute something useful to society?
[oyate] in fact, i seem to be so good at making money it bores me
[RTRR27672] greetings O here
[exatreide] Ripping people off to be success full is what capitalism is.
[RustyShackleford] I have a skill! Marketing!
[ldlework] RustyShackleford you say you're here for the revolution
[RustyShackleford] thats right Revolution!
[ldlework] RustyShackleford you help no one buy participating in the business that you participate in
[ldlework] Only yourself
[ldlework] If you do infact help anyone
[oyate] WTF is the revolution? we're the R3VOlUTION!
[ldlework] Its helping them by helping them rip other people off
[RustyShackleford] people that I have gotten into business are making money!
[RustyShackleford] We all benifit!
[docmon] hey O
[ldlework] BY RIPPING OTHER PEOPLE OFF
[RTRR27672] hey docman
[exatreide] Capitalism is ripping people off,
[oyate] ah the leftist speaks up
[ldlework] You can provide useful products to people
[RTRR27672] i canonly guess
[reinhardt] that is why capitalism exists
[RustyShackleford] say somemore exatreide, you make me look good!
[ldlework] You can provide useful services to people
[RustyShackleford] good or service!
[ldlework] There's nothing inherently evil about selling something useful to someone
[ldlework] RustyShackleford you sell lies
[oyate] extraeide i think many here can relate in some way to your doctrine
[exatreide] Eh, I'm a fellow third party member. Just a different party. I know i'm outnumbered here but I still like coming and debating.
[ldlework] You sell Misinformation
[ldlework] Misleading evidence for a corrupt business model
[RustyShackleford] I sell nothing! I give opportunity!
[oyate] but extraeide, we simply do not agree
[ldlework] You sell nothing, by your own admission
[ldlework] Where does the value come from!?
[ldlework] No where!
[exatreide] We agree on some issues oyate
[ldlework] Just like the federal reserve
[ldlework] You arnt for the Revolution
[ldlework] You're here to decieve people
[oyate] we certainly do extraeide. some of us are learning how to reach out to leftists
[oyate] and we find we have to reach a LONG way
[oyate] but they are reaching back
[RustyShackleford] You think Im bad, so I guess your decieved!
[oyate] one day we will join hands
[ldlework] There's not a bit of logic there RustyShackleford
[ldlework] Try again to save yourself
[ldlework] There's no hope for you
[RustyShackleford] come here ldlework, give me a hug!
[ldlework] You're evil, and I'll repeat it everytime you try to doge
[exatreide] Bot do not like the federal reserve, we both don't agree with the war on drugs. We have a common enemy of the CPD, the lobbyists, the corruption in washington, and ballot access.
[ldlework] You'll have to go elsewhere to peddle you're non-existent wares
[RustyShackleford] xxx oooo xxxx
[oyate] well said extraeide
[RTRR76962] r looked up title for tonight
[mhmjr] evil? I thought you didn't belive in good/evil ldlework...
[ldlework] mhmjr they are just models
[ldlework] And hit fits it just perfectly
[docmon] cmon guys group hug!!
[RustyShackleford] thats right
[oyate] i'm evil oyate
[ldlework] RustyShackleford see you don't even have any defense anymore
[oyate] hug break
[ldlework] You have no reasoning to defend the business that you operate
[mhmjr] ldlework: precicely my argument when that came up
[RustyShackleford] Brothers dont shake hands, BROTHERS GOT TO HUG!
[docmon] BIG HUG!! BRO's
[ldlework] How could you base your life on something you can't even defend
[ldlework] Against a single opponent
[reinhardt] don't hug me bro!
[RTRR27672] LOL R!
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[RustyShackleford] Its a business, people buy businesses everyday!
[oyate] reinhart, ROTFL
[ldlework] RustyShackleford you sell fake businesses!
[ldlework] Its different!
[anti_theocon] back...,ya'll need a judge or something...any judges in here?
[ldlework] Wake up!
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[ldlework] Change yourself RustyShackleford
[exatreide] Would you on the right be willing to put our differences aside in order to help us reform ballot access laws, the commison for presidential debates, lobbyists, and corruption in washington? Would you Baldwin, and Barr supporters be willing to stand with us on that?
[oyate] still ROTFL on reinhart
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[ldlework] You can be successful without hurting society
[RTRR27672] futures are up
[oyate] DON'T HUG ME BRO! lols
* RustyShackleford is now known as MLM4YOU
[MLM4YOU] there you go
[tmaddox] yes exatreide
[MLM4YOU] I changed
[mhmjr] exatreide: other than 'the left', who is 'us'?
[docmon] aaaahhhhhhh another pissin match
[MLM4YOU] I guess
[oyate] who is us? why, we're us
[oyate] last time i checked, we were us
[MLM4YOU] I love ldlework, hes my friend!
[RTRR27672] where isish?
[ldlework] MLM4YOU, really. You can be succesful without being evil. Why not be open to other venues of success?
[oyate] mhmjr, who would we be if we were not us?
[MLM4YOU] where is SigKim? hasnt been here for a while?
[oyate] i guess we could be somebody else
[reinhardt] i think ish has a life
[RTRR27672] err, BINGO
[anti_theocon] it's funny how we find out that we have differneces of opinion with our friends in here, that never come up on the street, but we still remain friends
[oyate] ok, mhmjr, if you want, i can be you for a while and you can be me
[RTRR27672] just 6 kids?
[exatreide] Left being
[oyate] but i think we'd still just be us
[deacon] oyate and sigkim are never in tha same place at the same time
[MLM4YOU] Im open to start my own Homemade Stadium Hotdog Business and FaceCream stand!
[exatreide] The left being Greens, Socialists, Democratic Socialists, Communists, ect
[oyate] i've seen sigKim around
[RTRR27672] nikkei up
[DrSteveParent] hey brian you want some advice as to why you take so much flack?
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[mhmjr] oyate: I dunno, 'us' is fairly flexible...was wondering who he is asking us to make a stand with...I couldn't possibly agree to stand with someone without knowing something about him and all I know so far is he's a lefty...and wants Barr and Baldwin supporters to stand with him
[ldlework] MLM4YOU which would be totally traditional business. Entirely different from what you do now.
[MLM4YOU] tell me DrSteve
[oyate] extraeide, loving warning: some of our purists might attack you
[exatreide] Thats fine
[DrSteveParent] because you always seem to go out of your way to try and piss people off
[oyate] our purists are utterly intransigent
[DrSteveParent] you think it is funny
[MLM4YOU] ldlework is just an easy target!
[ldlework] MLM4YOU you take so much flak because you base your entire selling strategy upon the assumption that people are stupid and that you deserve their money if you can decieve them succesffully.
[DrSteveParent] that is your biggest problem
[mhmjr] see, that answers it...I can stand with left leaning people but not with any flavor of socialists, which is evidently what is being asked
[anti_theocon] that sounds racist in a way
[deacon] but not his onlyone though
[MLM4YOU] I showed him my Bob Conley ad and he ripped me to pieces!
[oyate] i guess if MLM4YOU is truly ripping off our people.....watch it MLM4YOU
[MLM4YOU] TIRED OF FORECLOSURES? Vote for Bob Conley, a Patriot, for US Senate on Nov. 4th! www.AimHighwithBob.com
[ldlework] Because your ad was entirely unsubstantial!
[exatreide] As a Sociaist, I'm use to the attack. I'm not here for that. I wave my white flag and not my red one tonight. an Attempt to create a united front of third parties, left and right of center against ballot access laws, the CPD, washington corruption, the federal reserve.
[reinhardt] is the nikkei really up?
[oyate] we don't take kindly to people robbing us
[DrSteveParent] yes but brian instead of ignoring it you went into I will show you mode
[RTRR27672] Is Baldwin going to do anything about money laundering?
[oyate] BE WARNED
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[DrSteveParent] the /ignore works well around here
[anti_theocon] eho sm i to dys ehst reaches and capture's the attention of this populace...carry on
[MLM4YOU] We are going to have a Group Hug!
[Shermanium] Nikkei 225 -1.85 -0.02% 7,647.23 10/27 9:15am
[seeker401] hi all
[DrSteveParent] hello seeker
[deacon] i wish there was a d button all the above sometimes
[seeker401] asx down 1.8
[ldlework] oyate, Multi-Level Marketing, Private Franchising, whatever they want to change the name to is all the same thing. Selling fake businesses
[oyate] sure MLM4YOU. tell us your home address. we'll come by and give you a hug
[DrSteveParent] welcome to the chat room
[MLM4YOU] 142 Greenbriar Dr Gaffney Sc
[ldlework] oyate, How can selling something of no value NOT be the definition of ripping off our people?
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[MLM4YOU] come get some!
[oyate] SC....a little far
[tmaddox] exatreide I don't have a problem working with other third parties to get ballot access laws changed
[seeker401] hi MLM and Drsteve
[tmaddox] I think everyone has a right to have a voice
[oyate] oh hey Idlework, i don't even know this dude so i reserve judgement
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[MLM4YOU] Travis is right!
[ldlework] oyate, forget him
[exatreide] Good to hear Tmaddox
[NGH] would the Hudson nephew missing be considered a morality play?
[DrSteveParent] they do travis
[Infohunter] hiya fellas
[ldlework] oyate, I'm talking about what he's doing
[reinhardt] nothin will ever be done about an "immigration issue" it is untouchable
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[oyate] hi INfohuntger
[tmaddox] I we can all agree that the two we have are the problem at the moment
[ldlework] The practice is what it is regardless of who's doing it and if you know that person oyate
[DrSteveParent] but when you go out of your way to poke at people don;t get pissed when people lash back
[RTRR27672] wage suppression is the goal
[seeker401] sup info
[Infohunter] hi c
[NGH] hi R
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[Infohunter] they need bodies...
[RTRR27672] hey ngh
[BobtheBartender] hello everyone
[NGH] ty for all to date. enlightening
[Infohunter] hiya seeker
[ldlework] DrSteveParent his practice is so inheretly deplorable that he only need mention it to gain the attacks from me.
[oyate] yeah, i have no dog in the MLM4YOU fight as of now
[seeker401] g'day R
[docmon] hey bob
[ldlework] He is the worst kind of person.
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[oyate] Idlework, you attack Dr. Steve? he's a bro of mine
[reinhardt] 31 users when i got here sorta fun
[tmaddox] I beleive there were a couple cases this year where all the more major third parties were involved in law suits to change ballot access laws
[oyate] great. now we got problems
[BobtheBartender] Dr Steve is a great guitarist!
[Infohunter] your Peeps are abound R...
[reinhardt] gotta do dishes.. brb
[NGH] R, I'm looking for clarification on the cancer angle... just a sympathy ploy?
[Infohunter] hey fellas........
[exatreide] Indeed Tmaddox. The biggest states are South Carolina and Oklahoma which don't even allow us to have write ins
[RTRR27672] The General Idea Is To Rob The Peasants.. And Then Make It Illegal To Complain.
[BobtheBartender] MADE A Wrong Turn? Bob Conley will drive us on the path to success. Vote Bob Conley, Nov. 4th. www.FlatTopBob.com...
[Infohunter] we have a great set of heads here
[RTRR27672] PAT II
[NGH] hi info
[Infohunter] and not the aluminum ones either....
[deacon] brian how is bob going to fight foreclosures?
[Infohunter] hiya ngh
[RTRR27672] hey info
[Infohunter] yes 672?
[RTRR27672] O here
[tmaddox] the enemy of my enemy is my friend
[Infohunter] Suo O
[Infohunter] Sup O
[Shermanium] hey is lightman coming/here?
[tmaddox] not saying you're an enemy exatreide
[NGH] they're all my friends. enemies won't change for their enemies
[Infohunter] lmao SER.........
[RTRR27672] heh not all get it
[exatreide] indeed tmaddox, while were ideological opponents, we have a common goal. Our goal is to have our voice heard and to have the people choose.
[Infohunter] only us DOOM ers
[anti_theocon] this reagan quote needs to go away
[Infohunter] iz good?
[RTRR27672] O stands for Orangerie
[docmon] gotta run... peace be with you all!
[anti_theocon] we blew the border deal...it's empty rhetoric
[RTRR27672] bye doc
[NGH] bye doc
[Infohunter] I wuz spinnin my wheels there for a min tryin to put 2 and 3 together....
[docmon] later O
[Infohunter] CYA Doc
[docmon] cya ngh
[docmon] bye info
[Infohunter] take care
[RTRR27672] how many dishes?
[NGH] I have to go play hockey
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[oyate] exatreide, did you mean to say opponents?
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[Infohunter] HAT TRICK TO YOU NGH!!!
[anti_theocon] canada is third world?
[PointDexter] Sime check PM
[anti_theocon] they have national health care
[NGH] I'm goalie... not hat tricks please and thank you
[NGH] (mostly please)
[oyate] cause exatreide, we're kind of rough on our opponents
[Infohunter] No No No...
[PointDexter] anti_theocon, thats good right?
[RTRR27672] r your take on amero?
[anti_theocon] they probably would prefer not to use ameros
[seeker401] harper loves ameros
[Shermanium] anyone watch those lindey williams vids?
[NGH] i think the Amero is a false trail
[PointDexter] how many new pharmaceuticals are developed in Canada? kill free markets and you will see the end of medicine
[oyate] exatreide, we're better to have as friends
[NGH] any, g'night
[Infohunter] i watched the one sherm
[anti_theocon] canwell according to the spammers, they'd like to do business...lol
[RTRR76962] yes, lindsey films
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[Qa] yep, i've watched his video
[Shermanium] tied to the debt
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[Qa] although what he said was not really groundbreaking
[Infohunter] all of the oil is tied to US Dollars as of niw
[Qa] it's kind of common sense
[exatreide] The Soviets did not agree with England or America, however they put their differences aside long enough to focus on Germany and then Japan. Don't know if that's the best analogy, but just off the top of my head
[seeker401] not for long info imo
[exatreide] True Oyate
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[RTRR76962] eventually euros?
[oyate] Amero: who cares what it's called, USD is finished, something has to replace it
[Infohunter] i agree seeker.......but what will the new currency be?
[RTRR27672] euros fiat also
[PointDexter] stay away from our euros
[PointDexter] its ours
[oyate] either the replacement will be good (ours) or theirs (bad)
[anti_theocon] it's the standard that matters, not the name of the note...
[seeker401] either euros or the "new" dollar
[exatreide] We have our hardliners in the party as well, selling this to my party is going to be as hard as it is to you guys
[PointDexter] thats good
[tmaddox] bank wouldn't take my canada money the other day, said it was worthless
[PointDexter] then we can print them also
[Infohunter] Euros=Dollare= 1 big bonfire with our paper
[oyate] exatreide, can i PM you?
[Qa] why is USD finished altogether? Prob finished as the world reserve currency but getting rid of USD will create too much turmoil at home
[Qa] don't want to wake the sheep
[exatreide] Of course
[oyate] brb people
[PointDexter] Qa, sure the turmoil will happen and then what?
[Infohunter] kk C
[PointDexter] game over USD
[tmaddox] I told them the canada $ was almost the same as the us $
[anti_theocon] if it becomes too worthless, they 'll sell it short, right?
[exatreide] Qa, we can always just get rid of capitalism all together
[ldlework] exatreide no we cant
[Qa] well turmoil may be unpredictable; why take the risk when you can carry out the same crimes without it
[PointDexter] i hope so exatreide
[PointDexter] i dont call that capitalism
[RTRR76962] not possible
[PointDexter] its more like corporatism
[Infohunter] The Dollar has to be around until they can make a good move though.....
[Qa] yep that's it
[anti_theocon] Qa: you got it
[seeker401] aud was .97 to the USD 3 months ago..now .61
[Infohunter] With everything in dollars now, they have to change over their vast fortunes right?
[reinhardt] i am startin 2 think.. that a one world currency would b intended 2 make ecommerce standardized
[anti_theocon] i think currency traders will decide when the time comes
[Qa] who said they have their fortunes in USD's anymore ?
[RTRR27672] sarkozy agrees
[RTRR76962] new electronic
[PointDexter] right, and wouldnt be fun if everybody uses the USD that the US HAS the printing presses for that
[anti_theocon] the market
[seeker401] good thought R
[PointDexter] how is fiat money free market?
[Qa] over the past 2 years many funds invested ehavily in other currencies, they knew this crap was coming
[PointDexter] thats not true
[anti_theocon] it is because people deal in it
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[reinhardt] the presses would b outsourced just like the French printers in the 1500s
[PointDexter] other currencies are crap to because of the securitizing of US loans
[PointDexter] so its all tainted
[RTRR27672] how does Baldwin feel about Medicare FRAUD?
[Shermanium] "the presses"?
[anti_theocon] anything that can be bought or sold, has value to the traders
[reinhardt] both the presses and the operators
[Shermanium] ie the pc's?
[PointDexter] not if it happens at gunpoint (fiat money)
[Qa] medicare fraud is nuts down here in NYC, whew have aI got stories
[Infohunter] it seems as the dollar tanking has infected institutions around the world, maybe more than some thought
[Infohunter] or is it the PLAN R?
[RTRR27672] widespread, Qa
[reinhardt] ny is a hotbed for medicare fraud
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[Infohunter] all on purpose
[anti_theocon] right now, it hasn't come to that...and when it does, who will be at the end of the barrel?
[reinhardt] florida is worse
[Qa] everyday people are in on it, corrupt enough people and everyone will turn a blind eye
[RTRR27672] more old
[Shermanium] boca is the worst!
[reinhardt] more poor in NY more old in Fla
[Qa] maybe R but elderly immigrants in NYC holy crap it's blatant too
[RTRR76962] would the blanets be a diversion?
[RTRR27672] uh huh
[Qa] no one tries to hide it
[Infohunter] R is that a key...the poor and the old???
[reinhardt] hee hee
[Qa] well throw enough crumbs at the bottom adn they won';t care what the top si doing
[reinhardt] exploitable and vulnerable and mentally incapable = key
[Shermanium] pretty much every american
[Infohunter] [reinhardt]: exploitable and vulnerable and mentally incapable = key... Thank You...
[anti_theocon] for those who have nothing, a crumb can be a saving grace...this is true
[Qa] very true but also the willing
[Qa] some will not, some will
[Infohunter] LMAO Sherm...[Shermanium]: pretty much every american
[anti_theocon] how old is this feed?
[Infohunter] S*** R... when you read those 3 words,
[RTRR76962] hate to say it, but agree
[Infohunter] it's like 80% of the pop
[Shermanium] it sucks to suck
[reinhardt] we mericans r a stupid group of people
[RTRR27672] uh huh
[reinhardt] but we are all so damn clever and witty
[RTRR27672] take it to the bank
[Infohunter] I hate to agree with that one...
[reinhardt] i think that is our biggest problem
[anti_theocon] if at first you don't succed, keep on sucking til you do succeed
[Shermanium] they are hoping that the chinese and the indians are too
[Qa] lol, very few are willing to leave their 'comfortable" lifestyle
[oyate] ok me and the leftist are back
[Shermanium] we are lazy
[Shermanium] we have a two week attention span
[RTRR27672] instant gratification
[Infohunter] work too hard to find an easy way to do it
[reinhardt] the chinese are an enslaved culture
[RTRR76962] we're not far behind
[Qa] idk, I think so many people just look to money for money's sake instead of looking to money as a means for promoting their ideals
[Infohunter] always has, always will...
[Qa] that's what the elites are good at
[anti_theocon] it's more that we get worn out after a week of multitasking
[reinhardt] our masters f-cked up when they handed us the constitution and bill of rights
[reinhardt] now is the time to make them pay
[seeker401] we work to hard for not much..we have no time left to question..our barins hurt
[RTRR27672] did u see 60 minutes?
[Infohunter] they just keep trying to takem ER
[anti_theocon] or make them right instead of wrong
[RTRR76962] they've pretty much wiped with it
[reinhardt] 60 min... yeah making a page on it
[reinhardt] lotta beans spilled
[RTRR27672] oh good, was fascinating
[seeker401] what was on it?
[seeker401] we had superbugs last night
[Shermanium] missed it
[RTRR76962] i need to maybe reconsider watching tv
[seeker401] in aus
[RTRR27672] every g-d member of congress that voted for that bill should be takenout
[Shermanium] wall street or main street?
[anti_theocon] that's your job...
[RTRR27672] Credut Default Swaps +
[exatreide] If your going to socialize something , socialize some profitable things as well
[Shermanium] socialize strip clubs
[RTRR76962] like pharma?
[reinhardt] lame-duck session! that = 2 sets of congressional criminals
[exatreide] We can put it under healthcare shermanunium
[oyate] superbugs? did someone say superbugs?
[RTRR27672] oh RIGHT
[oyate] do they wear costumes?
[Infohunter] how much more will we see unfold with the Securities and CDS's...
[seeker401] shhhh oyate
[seeker401] they have ears
[oyate] Inforhunter....securities and equities?
[exatreide] So...The USA just attacked SYRIA?
[Infohunter] yes.........for what I see, they are still out there
[oyate] WHAAAA? WE JUST ATTACKED SYRIA?
[anti_theocon] look at the models...service workers are pensioned in venezuela...they pay very little for gas...another good thing is chavez has the correct impressions of gw
[seeker401] quadrillions!! of it info
[RTRR27672] border of iraq
[oyate] oh great.
[Infohunter] yes we did attack Syria
[reinhardt] what? syria?
[Shermanium] syria bad
[Infohunter] Yes for * dudes
[Infohunter] 8 dudes
[RTRR27672] yes killed civies
[Shermanium] we attaced over theborder
[seeker401] yeah they destroyed a farm oyate
[oyate] here we go again. welcome to our third global war
[oyate] a farm
[intrigue] 8 civilians
[oyate] a farm
[Shermanium] helis and comandos
[oyate] we're fighting for a farm?
[RTRR27672] no comment
[oyate] what do they grow? it better be good
[RTRR76962] no, their in Dc
[exatreide] Man... I'm in the national guard I really don't want to go to Syria, I know it's something new and I'm sure Iraq is getting boring
[reinhardt] 8 may b not "attack"
[seeker401] might be a nasty terrorist inside oyate!
[Qa] this can't be the first time; although Syria's amking a big stinka bout it THIS time
[tmaddox] US special forces launch rare attack inside Syria
[oyate] the leftist is in the national guard?
[anti_theocon] rare for now...
[oyate] the leftist is in the national guard
[DrSteveParent] It is the derivatives market that we need to be watching, when the bootom falls out of that we are in trouble
[oyate] wow. this just gets better and better
[seeker401] concur drsteve
[exatreide] The leftist is
[oyate] explain, Doc, how derivatives are different from equities
[tmaddox] The government said civilians were among the dead, including four children.
[exatreide] Which is state funded, you guys are all about that right? hehe
[Qa] The IMF chief is being pushed out....
[oyate] always the children these days
[Infohunter] I have seen a number of 1.4 quadrillion dollars out there in default...Is that number valid?
[oyate] we live in evil times indeed
[Shermanium] "the government said..."
[anti_theocon] i'm turning off the feed now...
[RTRR76962] this didn't was out like georgia did, reason?
[reinhardt] we'll see what the MSM does with this
[oyate] used to be adults took care of kids
[RTRR27672] so far very little
[oyate] Syria is a kill zone
[seeker401] underestimated info!
[Infohunter] REALLY 401???
[Qa] Assad;s a lame in Syria
[intrigue] 60min show archived online?
[seeker401] who really knows..
[oyate] Syrian and Lebanon are specifically designed kill zones for American and Israeli troops
[Infohunter] so, how would that ever get paid back....
[seeker401] its impossible to get a figure
[reinhardt] i bet it is
[RTRR27672] NIKKEI + 102
[oyate] in a morbid way, i'm kind of curious to see how these new Russian missiles work against us
[Guest12618] Wow. That's suprising. NIKKEI
[DrSteveParent] I can try
[exatreide] I don't fallow my party's stance when it comes to Israel, but I don't know what the libertarian stance is with them
[reinhardt] wasn't syria a third of Bush's evil axis?
[Infohunter] NO DOOM....watch for the drop after Sushi....
[anti_theocon] syria...where's the next one?
[RTRR27672] Russia stock market closed till Tuesday
[DrSteveParent] see if this helps
[Shermanium] long weekend!
[RTRR76962] don't be too confident, russia uses analog and US digital, EMP
[DrSteveParent] n(t)S(t)ddt = S(t)dn(t),
[DrSteveParent] d n(t) = n(t)d.
[DrSteveParent] Rewriting the last equation as
[DrSteveParent] d ln[n(t)] = d,
[DrSteveParent] integrating both sides, and applying the condition n(0) = 1, we obtain the result
[DrSteveParent] n(t) = edt.
[intrigue] the past 2 mondays the market has been up if I remember correctly
[oyate] we pretty much HATE the modern state of Israel exatreide
[DrSteveParent] does that explain it?
[seeker401] the banks have to admit their losses and what the balance sheets really say..but they cant..then they are in contempt of basel 2
[Qa] The Russian's know how the game is played and they ain't playing it lol
[oyate] and some of us are outright anti-semmites
[deacon] i got it doc lol
[oyate] Jeez, the hate we have in this movement
[oyate] some of us hate gays
[anti_theocon] tafter the mathematicians get thru with my theory, i can hardly recognize it myself!
[oyate] some of us hate jews
[oyate] some of us hate leftists
[deacon] ima hate guy!!!!
[Qa] it's really interesting how this meltdown has led to netire nations defaulting and being "aided" by the IMF
[tmaddox] I don't think I hate anyone
[reinhardt] follow the money.. not the hate
[oyate] some of us....anything that exits, there's a patriot to hate it
[seeker401] once IMF owns you..night night nurse
[seeker401] next pakistan
[tmaddox] my taylor is a gay black man and I'm ok with that
[exatreide] Oyate the SPUSA is very pro palestian. The party is pretty much split on the two state solution issue. As a Jew though I personally support Israel because it's a democracy in a sea of theocracy's and monarchs.
[RTRR76962] money to iran?
[Infohunter] President Bush named Iran, Iraq, Cuba, Libya, Syria and North Korea in his speech.
[Guest12618] Really, Pakistan? Not Iran? I'd really think Iran was next.
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[seeker401] pakis are in deep s**t
[oyate] exatreide, domocracy is a dirty word around here
[deacon] tmaddox: hes ok because hes your tailor?
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[anti_theocon] that's a disclaimer, just in case he makes past the mideast
[seeker401] thats the sort of country you dont want to fall over
[oyate] we don't don't give a fig from demmocracy exatreide
[DrSteveParent] oyate that has always been the problem, many people continue to put people into groups and insted of trying to explain things in a civil manner to exaplin it to them and hope they join most would rather atatck
[tmaddox] sure, just don't get frisky measuring my inseam
[exatreide] Oyate thats okay. Capitalism is where I'm use to
[oyate] exatreide, we care about the REPUBLIC
[deacon] lol tmaddox
[seeker401] be like ussr again expect this time the bad guys can get the arsenal even easier
[oyate] demmocracy and republicanism are as different as republicanism and communism
[Infohunter] R... Whats the high level of Herion being processed locally in Afghanistan have to do with things....
[RTRR76962] easier to deliver blankets???
[RTRR76962] drug money, cia has to be funded
[exatreide] Of course.
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[oyate] heroin? very handy as an anestheitc. was addicted to the # years ago
[Qa] money for the NYSE lol
[oyate] heroin? LOVE the stuff. unfortunately cannot touch it ever again
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[intrigue] brave new world?
[oyate] heroin? when i cut my hand open and had to have surgery i refused pain killers that were opiate-derived
[oyate] so it hurt like a beeeeatch
[Infohunter] But they are PROCESSING it locally now... Why would they do that...Control the potency??? Easier to put on the CIA Jet???
[RTRR76962] drugs were used in the assistance to take Hong Kong
[anti_theocon] oh no...
[oyate] but not so much as loosing my friends to that aweful stuff
[Qa] we kind of live in one already;widespread use of anti depressants, stimualnts
[oyate] Infohunter, it's simple economics
[reinhardt] drudge is carrying the syria thingy main-stream does what he does.. usually
[Qa] where did they process it before?
[intrigue] whay are you not happy woth things? Get some soma... Though I saw a recent report mentioning opium production was down.
[oyate] Infohunter, opium (inrefined product) takes about 5 times as much space in a cargo hold
[Infohunter] Wherever it was shipped to...
[Shermanium] wag the dog
[Qa] r- what's ur thoughts on Drudge?
[oyate] Inforhunter, herion is WAY more potent than opes
[reinhardt] drudge = a-hole
[Infohunter] Thats what I hear....
[Infohunter] lol@a hole
[RTRR76962] word has it it is in raw form leaving A, processing in another country, uUS supervised
[RTRR27672] LOL he has one too
[PointDexter] Sime can you check PM
[oyate] makes no sense to export opium for refinement in a remote location
[Infohunter] but its less hassle for them to sell it raw...
[reinhardt] he is a shill.. a plant
[intrigue] can anyone confirm if this is the same 60min clip as today (dated oct 6) www.cbsnews.com...
[oyate] um...these people's lives are a hassle
[Shermanium] to antarctica for 'the day after'?
[oyate] they want MONEY
[Qa] always thought it was kidn of odd how he got so big
[RTRR27672] me too
[RTRR27672] blue dress?
[oyate] money comes in handy for feeding children and such
[Qa] the f does he do anyway? he breaks 1 or 2 stories a month but he sets thr trend
[Shermanium] r- spitzer?
[Infohunter] I guess thats why the columbians kilo it up for us...
[RTRR27672] half the time he sleeps late
[Shermanium] (blue dress reminded me)
[reinhardt] 60 min looks like it
[oyate] you got it Info
[Infohunter] got it.........
[reinhardt] blue dress while 401k holders upgraded india
[Infohunter] never in the Herion circle.........
[intrigue] thx r
[RTRR27672] morality play
[exatreide] sorry, about that needed another drink
[oyate] lost half my tribe to heroin
[Infohunter] hiya ex
[Qa] but R- who follows econ news anyway? most americans don't
[Guest12618] R - Where's your 401k?
[Infohunter] sorry to hear that
[Qa] is ther really a need to obfuscate big moves?
[oyate] come back soon exagtreide
[reinhardt] 27627 yup
[reinhardt] the following is a quiz for r people:
[RTRR27672] uh huh
[exatreide] Ha, Its harder to get rid of me then that oyate
[reinhardt] what would a wise investor think about Picken's energy plan?
[Guest12618] *looking for pencil*
[Shermanium] whens the completion date?
[Infohunter] what is the completion date???
[reinhardt] verrrry good
[RTRR27672] Eminent Domain?
[reinhardt] ur catching on!
[RTRR76962] public financing
[Satire] ...I knew that.
[Infohunter] ur 2 gud a tcher
[Shermanium] but by then its too late
[reinhardt] good 2 hear
[anti_theocon] pickens has done well, in the aftermath of losing so many mills in the upstate...hope they have a good utilities plan
[RTRR27672] oh of course
[RTRR76962] Like the history lessons, thanks
[Infohunter] so R...how do you follow the completion date? What is in the MSM is really never the actual date
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[reinhardt] 2 billion loss.. 500 billion gain = fake loss
[RTRR27672] yeah i heard that
[RTRR76962] like the PO does, only bigger
[RTRR27672] 80 yo
[Infohunter] I have comissioned a few Wind Farms and they are NEVER on time...
[Shermanium] r : "when the electricity starts flowing"
[reinhardt] study eisenhower's interstate highway program
[Infohunter] usually has to do with a Copper product though...
[reinhardt] when the natural gas starts flowin into the vehicles
[Shermanium] they built it to land planes
[Guest12618] Still looking for the cancer link...
[Shermanium] every fifth mile is straight
[reinhardt] there is always a cancer link
[Shermanium] or something
[RTRR27672] Financial Times endorses Obama
[anti_theocon] ike should have rebuilt the railroads instead
[reinhardt] cancer patients make the best despots
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[RTRR76962] that would be me
[reinhardt] send in your resume
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[reinhardt] sorry to hear though
[RTRR76962] they wouldn't ike mine, I went herbal
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[exatreide] Brb Watching tom Morello on youtube
[RTRR76962] no problem, it took that & heart attack to wake me up
[reinhardt] hear ya
[Infohunter] R...I know of a 2 stage wind park that will be starting up in march of next year....
[reinhardt] i gotta take off
[reinhardt] good talkin w/ya!!
[Infohunter] cya R...
[RTRR27672] g'night r
[RTRR76962] cancer is now #1 killer and # 1 money maker # 1 charity gussler
[RTRR94392] awe just made it
[Guest12618] Thanks for all your dot connecting so far, sir. Appreciated.
[intrigue] thx r
[Qa] charity is key
[RTRR76962] thanks r, looking in ehighway
[Qa] yeh, cya r
[RTRR94392] bye r
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(CBS) The world's financial system teetered on the edge again last week, and anyone with more than a passing interest in their shrinking 401(k) knows it's because of a global credit crisis. It began with the collapse of the U.S. housing market and has been magnified worldwide by what Warren Buffet once called "financial weapons of mass destruction."
They are called credit derivatives or credit default swaps, and 60 Minutes did a story on the multi-trillion dollar market three weeks ago. But there's a lot more to tell.
As Steve Kroft reports, essentially they are side bets on the performance of the U.S. mortgage markets and the solvency on some of the biggest financial institutions in the world. It's a form of legalized gambling that allows you to wager on financial outcomes without ever having to actually buy the stocks and bonds and mortgages.
It would have been illegal during most of the 20th century, but eight years ago Congress gave Wall Street an exemption and it has turned out to be a very bad idea.
While Congress and the rest of the country scratched their heads trying to figure out how we got into this mess, 60 Minutes decided to go to Frank Partnoy, a law professor at the University of San Diego, who has written a couple of books on the subject.
Ask to explain what a derivative is, Partnoy says, "A derivative is a financial instrument whose value is based on something else. It's basically a side bet."
Think of it for a moment as a football game. Every week, the New York Giants take the field with hopes of getting back to the Super Bowl. If they do, they will get more money and glory for the team and its owners. They have a direct investment in the game. But the people in the stands may also have a financial stake in the ouctome, in the form of a bet with a friend or a bookie.
"We could call that a derivative. It's a side bet. We don't own the teams. But we have a bet based on the outcome. And a lot of derivatives are bets based on the outcome of games of a sort. Not football games, but games in the markets," Partnoy explains.
Partnoy says the bet was whether interest rates were going to go up or down. "And the new bet that arose over the last several years is a bet based on whether people will default on their mortgages."
And that was the bet that blew up Wall Street. The TNT was the collapse of the housing market and the failure of complicated mortgage securities that the big investment houses created and sold around the world.
But the rocket fuel was the trillions of dollars in side bets on those mortgage securities, called "credit default swaps." They were essentially private insurance contracts that paid off if the investment went bad, but you didn't have to actually own the investment to collect on the insurance.
"If I thought certain mortgage securities were gonna fail, I could go out and buy insurance on them without actually owning them?" Kroft asks Eric Dinallo, the insurance superintendent for the state of New York.
"Yeah," Dinallo says. "The irony is, though, you're not really buying insurance at that point. You're just placing the bet."
Dinallo says credit default swaps were totally unregulated and that the big banks and investment houses that sold them didn't have to set aside any money to cover their potential losses and pay off their bets.
"As the market began to seize up and as the market for the underlying obligations began to perform poorly, everybody wanted to get paid, had a right to get paid on those credit default swaps. And there was no 'there' there. There was no money behind the commitments. And people came up short. And so that's to a large extent what happened to Bear Sterns, Lehman Brothers, and the holding company of AIG," he explains.
In other words, three of the nation's largest financial institutions had made more bad bets than they could afford to pay off. Bear Stearns was sold to J.P. Morgan for pennies on the dollar, Lehman Brothers was allowed to go belly up, and AIG, considered too big to let fail, is on life support to thanks to a $123 billion investment by U.S. taxpayers.
"It's legalized gambling. It was illegal gambling. And we made it legal gambling…with absolutely no regulatory controls. Zero, as far as I can tell," Dinallo says.
"I mean it sounds a little like a bookie operation," Kroft comments.
"Yes, and it used to be illegal. It was very illegal 100 years ago," Dinallo says.
In the early part of the 20th century, the streets of New York and other large cities were lined with gaming establishments called "bucket shops," where people could place wagers on whether the price of stocks would go up or down without actually buying them. This unfettered speculation contributed to the panic and stock market crash of 1907, and state laws all over the country were enacted to ban them.
"Big headlines, huge type. This is the front page of the New York Times," Dinallo explains, holding up a headline that reads "No bucket shops for new law to hit.”
"So they'd already closed up 'cause the law was coming. Here's a picture of one of them. And they were like parlors. See," Dinallo says. "Betting parlors. It was a felony. Well, it was a felony when a law came into effect because it had brought down the market in 1907. And they said, 'We're not gonna let this happen again.' And then 100 years later in 2000, we rolled them all back."
The vehicle for doing this was an obscure but critical piece of federal legislation called the Commodity Futures Modernization Act of 2000. And the bill was a big favorite of the financial industry it would eventually help destroy.
It not only removed derivatives and credit default swaps from the purview of federal oversight, on page 262 of the legislation, Congress pre-empted the states from enforcing existing gambling and bucket shop laws against Wall Street.
"It makes it sound like they knew it was illegal," Kroft remarks.
"I would agree," Dinallo says. "They did know it was illegal. Or at least prosecutable."
In retrospect, giving Wall Street immunity from state gambling laws and legalizing activity that had been banned for most of the 20th century should have given lawmakers pause, but on the last day and the last vote of the lame duck 106th Congress, Wall Street got what it wanted when the Senate passed the bill unanimously.
"There was an awful lot of, 'Trust us. Leave it alone. We can do it better than government,' without any realistic understanding of the dangers involved," says Harvey Goldschmid, a Columbia University law professor and a former commissioner and general counsel of the Securities and Exchange Commission.
He says the bill was passed at the height of Wall Street and Washington's love affair with deregulation, an infatuation that was endorsed by President Clinton at the White House and encouraged by Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan.
"That was the wildest and silliest period in many ways. Now, again, that's with hindsight because the argument at the time was these are grownups. They're institutions with a great deal of money. Government will only get in the way. Fears it will be taken overseas. Leave it alone. But it was a wrong-headed argument. And turned out to be, of course, extraordinarily unwise," Goldschmid says.
Asked what role Greenspan played in all of this, Professor Goldschmid says, "Well, he made clear in his public speeches and book that a Libertarian drive was part of the way he looked at the world. He's a very talented man. But that didn't take us where we had to be."
"Alan was the most powerful man in Washington in a real sense. Certainly a rival to the president and had enormous influence on Capitol Hill," Goldschmid says,
"And he was at the height of his power," Kroft adds.
Within eight years, unregulated derivatives and swaps helped produce the largest financial services economy the United States has ever had. Estimates of the market for credit default swaps grew from $100 billion to more than $50 trillion, and you could bet on anything from the solvency of communities to the fate of General Motors.
It also produced a huge transfer of private wealth to Wall Street traders and investment bankers, who collected billions of dollars in bonuses. A lot of the money was made financing what seemed to be a never-ending housing boom, selling mortgage securities they thought were safe and credit default swaps that would never have to be paid off.
"The credit default swaps was the key of what went wrong and what's created these enormous losses," Goldschmid says.
"Is it your impression that people at the big Wall Street investment houses knew what was going on and knew the kind of risks that they were exposed to?" Kroft asks.
"No. My impression is to the contrary, that even at senior levels they only vaguely understood the risks. They only vaguely followed what was going on," Goldschmid says. "And when it tumbled, there was some genuine surprise not only at the board level where there wasn't enough oversight but at senior management level."
They didn't know what was going on in part because credit default swaps were totally unregulated. No one knew how many there were or who owned them. There was no central exchange or clearing house to keep track of all the bets and to hold the money to make sure they got paid off. Eventually, savvy investors figured out that the cheapest, most effective way to bet against the entire housing market was to buy credit defaults swaps, in effect taking out inexpensive insurance policies that would pay off big when other people’s mortgage investments went south.
"I know people personally who have taken away more than $1 billion from having been on the right side of these transactions," says Jim Grant, publisher of Grant's Interest Rate Observer and one of the country’s foremost experts on credit markets.
"If you can and you could lay down cents on the dollar to place a bet on the solvency of Wall Street, for example, as some did, when Wall Street became evidently insolvent, that cents on the dollar bet went up 30, 40, and 50 fold. Not everyone who did that wants to get his name in the paper. But there are some spectacularly rich people who came out of this," Grant says.
"Who got richer," Kroft remarks.
"Who got richer, who became, you know, fantastically richer," Grant says.
A lot of them were hedge fund managers. John Paulson's Credit Opportunities Fund returned almost 600 percent last year, with Paulson pocketing a reported $3.7 billion.
Bill Ackman, of Pershing Square Capital Management, said he plans to make hundreds of millions. Both declined 60 Minutes' request for an interview.
Congress now seems shocked and outraged by the consequences of its decision eight years ago to effectively deregulate swaps and derivatives. Various members of the House and Senate have hauled in the usual suspects to accept or share the blame.
"Were you wrong?" Rep. Henry Waxman asked former Federal Reserve Chairman Greenspan.
"Credit default swaps, I think, have some serious problems with them," Greenspan replied.
It appears to be the first step in a long process of restoring at least some of the regulations and safeguards that might have prevented, or at least mitigated this disaster after the damage has already been done.
Where do we go from here?
"We need the most dramatic rethinking of the regulatory scheme for financial markets since the New Deal. If anything has demonstrated that imperative, it's the economy right now and the tragic circumstances we're in," Goldschmid says.
Asked how much danger he thinks is still out there, Goldschmid says, "We don't know. Part of the problem of the lack of transparency in these - in these markets has been we don't really know."
OK.. Obviously Lost Some Sleep Tonite Thinking About The..
First Section Of 60 Minutes Regarding The Commodity Futures Legislation..
Passed Into Law On..
The Last Day Of (If I Remember Correctly) The 2000-2001 Congressional Change-Over.
When Did The Lame-Duck Session End?
On The 20th Of January Bush 42 Was Sworn Into Office?
Does Anybody Else See A Problem..
With That Date Or At The Minimum..
A Problem With That Period?
Who Is Up For A Chat On RTR Tonight..
To Brainstorm This 60 Minutes Thing A Little?
I Also Want To Thank Ya’ll For The Hard Work..
On The Northern Trust Move-Out (This Isn’t Close To Over)
More “NT jpegs” Will Be Posted Soon.
October 27 2008 04:30 A.M.
First Things First:
It looks like the NIKKEI (sp?) did a header last-night?
thanks to 511847
Spillin’ Some Beans Here..
Not Too Thrilled About Some Of The Dates.
While The King Slumbers
wish i wasn’t lmao
Interesting Blog & Thread On N. Korea
By The Way:
Very Well Put.
“Fire-Sale” = “Pennies on the dollar”
And The Last Sentence In The Thought Process..
Should Be Re-Read A Few Times.
Because “The Next Project” Is Already In The Second Inning.
October 26 2008 11:39
Can U Spot The Globalism And/Or The Money Laundering?
So Now Its “Down With Protectionism” and..
“Down With Isolationism” and..
“Up With Money Laundering”?
The King & His Thieves..
Think The Peasants Are Fascists?
When A Wise Investor Hears “Two New Research Centers”..
A Wise Investor Would Ponder..
“When Is The Completion Date?”
Suggestion For Federal Prosecutors..
And Other Eager Little Investigators..
Looking Into Explanations For The So-Called Banking Debacle Thingy:
Look For Checks Written To The Above Institutions..
From A Few “Failed” Bankers..
Dated Before September 15 2008?
Betcha Don’t Get That Far..
Before Ya Wind Up With A Deadly Allergic Reaction..
To A Midnight Snack Or At The Deep End Of A Pool..
With No Water In It.
But I Don’t Have To Tell You How That Game Works..
Here Is A Key Indicator That “The King” Just Has..
Or Is About To.. Rob The Peasants.
The General Idea Is To Rob The Peasants..
And Then Make It Illegal To Complain.
In The U.S. of A. It Is Known As “Suspension Of The Writ”
While The World Frets Over The Worthless Upcoming Election..
A Wise Investor Would..
This Doesn’t Have 2 B Explained Does It?
The Primary Function Of Government Is To Pretend To Fail