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Chavez says crisis-hit U.S. needs new constitution

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posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 06:17 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


Go here!!

Mises.org

The Austrians came here after ww2, Mises, Hayek, and others spread it to this country. There are no more Austrian left in Austria.

Buy these books immediately to get yourself educated about Austrian Economics and Free-Markets.

www.mises.org...

I personally recommend, "America's Great Depression" By Dr. Murray Rothbard. It explains in detail what happened in the great depression, after reading it it will scare the "HELL" out of you, because all the mistakes he pointed out as contributing to the great depression are happening NOW, AGAIN!!

www.mises.org...

Then also buy this, small book. You will put to shame any Chicagoist, by explaining to them why credit distorts interest rates, and causes the business cycles. It will help you fully understand how the business cycle is created, and how it distorts the capital goods market before it effects the consumer goods.

www.mises.org...


This book, will make you hate the EVIL FED!! Awesome book:
www.mises.org...

This is for starters let me know if you would like me to recommend any other books, or if you need me to explain somethings. I own a ton of these books. And check-out the prices...these books are real cheap, and worth every penny.



[edit on 28-9-2008 by Gateway]




posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 06:19 PM
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Originally posted by yellowcard

Originally posted by QuetzalcoatlAlien
t's pretty sad that you can only resort to personal attacks such as calling people stupid and idiot. No, it was not government intervention it's merely the nature of Capitalism. Do you know what it is to be in the working-class situation? Losing your home? Barely being able to pay for gas? I highly doubt it. Libertarians lack any sort of credibility, since you all think Ron Paul is the savior of Earth.


Again, it's not a personal attack, it's the truth, if you want to get rid of the U.S. Constitution, then you're an idiot. I'm not going to call a fire an ocean of water because you think it's personal. I don't agree with Ron Paul 100%, as again, I have said I'm a Chicago School Libertarian and he is an Austrian School Libertarian. There are stark differences between the two and if you would use your brain or your mouse and keyboard you could easily find the differences. You lack any sort of credibility as you are using your 1st Amendment rights yet want to dismantle the very document that provides you that right. Socialism or Fascism? No thank you, I'll take Capitalism.

[edit on 28-9-2008 by yellowcard]

I never said I wanted to get rid of the U.S. Constitution. It's a great document but it is nowhere near as great as people say it is but I WILL admit to it as being a great written well thought out document. But keyword in that statement is still "Libertarian". Okay, I will once again state I do not want to "dismantle" it. Capitalism? Look at our economy and you still have faith in it. Also, do workers own the means of production in this nation? If you worked at a factory would you own the machines or would the CEO?

On another note, Government intervention is a state-monopoly capitalism at its finest.



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 07:40 PM
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Originally posted by cbass


Say what you want about this guy but he hits the nail on the head sometimes doesn't he. I wish more Americans would listen to what he is saying but everyone thinks he is a nutter so he will not have any crediability in the U.S.

There is no more United States of America. That country is dead now folks. You are living in a lie. The U.S. has collapsed and died. I'm am truly sorry.

sg.news.yahoo.com
(visit the link for the full news article)


Capitalism has nothing to do with the financial and banking crises. The problem with the sentiment that the distribution and development of capital actually inflicts damage on the participating economy is that it's not those systems but rather human nature that is to blame. Just as human nature prevents a Communist economic system from burgeoning, short of it being run completely by automata, the greed and malice associated with the pursuit of greater profit margins is also a result of our social nature. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with Capitalism, as there is nothing fundamentally wrong with Communism. The utilization of capital distribution and development, alongside a Free Market economic system, is simply the most reasonable and most plausible approach to motivating production and creating wealth.

The bottom line is that blaming economic recession on the very system that works to keep that in check is totally unreasonable.

And adding that the Constitution was responsible for the current economic turmoil in the U.S. was just a stupid political ploy. Nothing more can be said of that comment.



[edit on 28-9-2008 by cognoscente]



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 07:53 PM
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reply to post by Gateway
 


I appreciate the info. Ill get the books for I am 100% self educated and am always reading something. Generally I have gotten all of my info online and read a few books. I for one am for sound money and a lot of the principals of the Austrian School. I just didnt realize till RP that suck theories existed


Im quite familiar with the Keynesian theories in which the are for government intervention and I think this is just not true. A true free market will always be the best way and I agree totally with Peter Schiff and Ron Paul we really will die from the cure on this issue and not the disease. Out of curiosity where did u get your knowledge did u go to school or r u like me self educated?



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 08:04 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


I have a bachelors in Finance minor in Econ, and a masters in Economics as well. I thought about doing a Ph.D., but it's not worth it. I've spoken to several colleagues and other professors who also agree with me, that it's not worth it. Higher learning Economics is filled with dogmatic mathematics that has no place in Real world-Economics.

The Austrian School, which I learned about during my last year on my masters cleared everything up for me. Ever since then, I hold Ph.D. Chicagoist, and other Neoclassical economists with low regard. The only true heroes for US, should be the entrepreneur and his efforts to take risks, and thus provide jobs for everyone. Real businessmen that don't manipulate laws to benefit them, at the expense of competition, and price fixing or collusion are my heroes not Economists. For economists today are not champions of free-markets, but believe in centralizing and manipulations of markets.

This is what the Austrian school fundamentally teaches you, that the Entrepreneur and his actions drives the economy which is completely the opposite from what the Neoclassicalist and ergo the Chicagoists believe; that the economy must be command-controlled, to achieve so-called desired outcomes.

I'm glad to know that you are self-taught. I went and got a worthless masters to learn what you can teach yourself. GOOD FOR YOU!! You're a better man than I.

Buy those books and teach yourself, and you'll be more valuable to this economy, businesses, and middle class than some so-called Economist know-at-all Ivy-league-pontificating-hack, who talks about free-markets, but really encourages Corporatism.



[edit on 28-9-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 08:06 PM
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Originally posted by yellowcard

Originally posted by cbass
reply to post by yellowcard
 


I'm tell you the truth,
[edit on 28-9-2008 by yellowcard]


I'm tell you the truth? We can do this all day long partner.
I think it is sad when grown adults cannot have a debate without name calling. I fail to see how agreeing with Chavez factually makes you an idiot. Where is this fact? How can you prove this "fact"?

[edit on 28-9-2008 by cbass]



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 08:07 PM
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Oh and Gateway, i'd consider changing your sig because well it's untrue. Obama is nowhere near a socialist lol



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 08:12 PM
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reply to post by QuetzalcoatlAlien
 


He's socialist-lite, he believes in Big Government. He certainly has contempt for the marketplace. How could that not be considered socialist? He's also in favor of this bail-out.

Let's make this 100% clear. Those that favor this "Bail-Out" are socialist, since they believe that the marketplace should not be burdened with losses.



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 08:17 PM
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I only read the first page... let me get that out in the open...

That said...

We do need a new constitution. Laws have changed people have changed. Dictionary words of changed and loopholes are formed. The government got where it is by manipulation and political nonsense.

Also the OLD Constitution is kinda like an old science book, its outdated, its got a lot of good information for its time but this is a new time and age and has to be adjusted accordingly. Psychology, Business, Enviornment, Religion, All of these things have to be incorporated...

The CEO of one company dipped out of the country with 150 Million (after being given it by the U.S. Govt) ... I personally am not sure if thats true because of my source :-p but It does seem pretty fair, its how all these greedy people work. Use the majority to get rich quick ... dont help them with anything anymore. Kinda like microsoft. Sell Software at a rediulous price, the richer they get they send Support to INDIA because those people dont understand an intelligent conversation and can only do so much, where as An American would do whatever it took to help you.

Also this whole African American, PeurtoRican, all thise racial political crap has to end. If youd rather be called African American then go Back to Africa, last I checked The only developed places in Africa is due to European investments, and the ones that arent God Bless those people because the rest of the country is full of lazyness and greed. So either be American or Get out. I dont thing thats too much to ask. The only people that have the right to be proud of their American Heritage is the Indians who we stole everything from. Let them dress how they want. The slaves were sold off by their own fellow colored black man, white people were barbarian in mind dealing with them but either way it wasn't White people going to Africa to get these people Black People were selling their own out for money. So make the choice... America or Africa. I have a lot of black friends and they agree. Heritage is the past, whats to be proud of in Africa except the wildlife? The rest is in ruins.

Alll of my rambling done... the constitution needs reworked. Chavez did hit the nail on the head... He needs to worry about his own country however. It appears like these countrys are gangin up on the U.S. for a reason. I personally belive its population control since I know that the Earth is consisting of 6.5 Billion now but can only tolerate around8-10 Billion Peacefully. You dont wait until your there you worry about it when your about 70% there... and we are almost there folks. The way everything is working out all the Christian and Muslim Activists are about to get their way... a great plague will hit the earth and a good portion of everyone will be gone. Leaving the Earth once more to repopulate and advance spiritually. (Or Become Greedy once more and ruin the lives for future generations to come).



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 08:23 PM
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reply to post by mybigunit
 


By the way, the Austrians unlike the other schools believe in spreading knowledge and education: Go here:

mises.org...

There is stuff to listen to for free, so you could learn. They also have free-online books here:

mises.org...

Remember that BOOK that I talked about earlier. About the FED or other books to download for free: I bought the books myself, because I like to read something more tangible, than to stare at the computer. But if you like to read over the net, here you go:

mises.org...

The title again is "The Case Against the Fed".

By the way, in case you have not noticed the gentlemen in my Avatar is Dr. Murray Rothbard, a great Austrian Economist. Dr. Ron Paul met, learned, and greatly admired this man. He will be greatly missed.


[edit on 28-9-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 09:06 PM
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lol... the USA gets a sniffle and the whole world gets a flu shot...
you all depend on us so much its silly

bash bash bash bash, but then.......u realize...oh chit...

lol lol lol lol

good luck!!!!!

we will save our own azz first you ingrates



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 10:58 PM
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reply to post by Gateway
 

Your explanation of what a Socialist is is clearly obscured by your ignorance and obvious Libertarian values.



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 11:02 PM
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Originally posted by rjmelter
I only read the first page... let me get that out in the open...

That said...

We do need a new constitution. Laws have changed people have changed. Dictionary words of changed and loopholes are formed. The government got where it is by manipulation and political nonsense.

Also the OLD Constitution is kinda like an old science book, its outdated, its got a lot of good information for its time but this is a new time and age and has to be adjusted accordingly. Psychology, Business, Enviornment, Religion, All of these things have to be incorporated...

The CEO of one company dipped out of the country with 150 Million (after being given it by the U.S. Govt) ... I personally am not sure if thats true because of my source :-p but It does seem pretty fair, its how all these greedy people work. Use the majority to get rich quick ... dont help them with anything anymore. Kinda like microsoft. Sell Software at a rediulous price, the richer they get they send Support to INDIA because those people dont understand an intelligent conversation and can only do so much, where as An American would do whatever it took to help you.

Also this whole African American, PeurtoRican, all thise racial political crap has to end. If youd rather be called African American then go Back to Africa, last I checked The only developed places in Africa is due to European investments, and the ones that arent God Bless those people because the rest of the country is full of lazyness and greed. So either be American or Get out. I dont thing thats too much to ask. The only people that have the right to be proud of their American Heritage is the Indians who we stole everything from. Let them dress how they want. The slaves were sold off by their own fellow colored black man, white people were barbarian in mind dealing with them but either way it wasn't White people going to Africa to get these people Black People were selling their own out for money. So make the choice... America or Africa. I have a lot of black friends and they agree. Heritage is the past, whats to be proud of in Africa except the wildlife? The rest is in ruins.

Alll of my rambling done... the constitution needs reworked. Chavez did hit the nail on the head... He needs to worry about his own country however. It appears like these countrys are gangin up on the U.S. for a reason. I personally belive its population control since I know that the Earth is consisting of 6.5 Billion now but can only tolerate around8-10 Billion Peacefully. You dont wait until your there you worry about it when your about 70% there... and we are almost there folks. The way everything is working out all the Christian and Muslim Activists are about to get their way... a great plague will hit the earth and a good portion of everyone will be gone. Leaving the Earth once more to repopulate and advance spiritually. (Or Become Greedy once more and ruin the lives for future generations to come).


WTF...?

I thought Jesse Helms died.

I swear a racist mofo is like a GD vampire



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 11:22 PM
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Originally posted by Gateway
reply to post by mybigunit
 

They have no problem with the FED's manipulation with interest rates, they also tend to see statistics and dogmatic models as appropriate tools to predict future consumer/producer outcomes. (think Long Term Capital Management and what happened to those so-called economists, who were Nobel Prize winners no less)

Chicagoist also loathe commodity backed money, they also see nothing wrong with fractional reserve banking.

Everybody, except the Austrians claim they know better than the Market.


[edit on 28-9-2008 by Gateway]


That is not true at all and I suggest you brush up on your economic theories, Chicago School believes that the Fed should not set interest rates (that's a New Keynesian policy), and Milton Friedman believed that money supply should keep up with population growth, so that there is no inflation, and no deflation. So you encourage investment like you see in inflationary environment, but also encourage savings, which occurs in a deflationary environment. Don't claim what you just said as fact when you don't even have them right...Chicago School also believes that government action is the root of inflation, but that inflation naturally occurs in economies because of supply and demand. The price of corn will go UP when there is more demand and not enough supply to meet that demand, that is a naturally occurring inflationary scenario that has nothing to do with the money supply. Austrian school does not recognize this concept or any predictive mathematical model, that is based on market data. Though those models are usually used by businesses...



Friedman argued that the Great Depression had been caused by the Federal Reserve's policies through the 1920s, and worsened in the 1930s. Friedman argues laissez-faire government policy is more desirable than government intervention in the economy. Governments should aim for a neutral monetary policy oriented toward long-run economic growth, by gradual expansion of the money supply. He advocates the quantity theory of money, that general prices are determined by money. Therefore active monetary (e.g. easy credit) or fiscal (e.g. tax and spend) policy can have unintended negative effects. In Capitalism and Freedom (1967) Friedman wrote,

"There is likely to be a lag between the need for action and government recognition of the need; a further lag between recognition of the need for action and the taking of action; and a still further lag between the action and its effects.


en.wikipedia.org...(economics)

Go read this book, the two schools are closer than you think: www.amazon.com...

I don't agree with Chicago School 100% and I don't agree with Austrian School 100%, but the majority of my views are held in Chicago School...I think anyone who worships a school as 100% right in economics doesn't really understand economics. I guess you could call me a Hybrid Chicago/Vienna Libertarian.

[edit on 28-9-2008 by yellowcard]



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 11:29 PM
link   

Originally posted by cbass
I'm tell you the truth? We can do this all day long partner.
I think it is sad when grown adults cannot have a debate without name calling. I fail to see how agreeing with Chavez factually makes you an idiot. Where is this fact? How can you prove this "fact"?

[edit on 28-9-2008 by cbass]


Oh no, it's a typo, which is completely different than 5 spelling mistakes per post...so go ahead and kick the can down the road. I'm sorry, I have no proof that could make me say it's a "fact," I will however say that it is strongly suggested by History that you're an idiot if you agree that the Constitution should be gotten rid of. Next time someone says you can't own a gun, says you can't speak your opinion, says you can be tortured, says the government can search and seize your property without a warrant....REMEMBER they aren't violating your Constitutional rights, they are simply rewriting the Constitution to make it better, at least by your standards. It's like you want proof that someone is ugly, which is impossible, it's just popular opinion that someone is ugly or not, same works with you being an idiot for thinking Capitalism is a root of a downfall, and don't see it for what it really is, which is freedom. When you suggest that the Constitution, the very foundation of our country should be thrown out the window because someone can't pay their bills...well, give me a break, and grow up.

[edit on 28-9-2008 by yellowcard]



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 11:44 PM
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Capitalism? Freedom? Wow.

I never thought in my life, I'd ever see anyone use those two words in a sentence and actually being serious.



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 11:47 PM
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Originally posted by QuetzalcoatlAlien
Capitalism? Freedom? Wow.

I never thought in my life, I'd ever see anyone use those two words in a sentence and actually being serious.


Well, I'm glad that you're well read


www.amazon.com...

www.amazon.com...

[edit on 28-9-2008 by yellowcard]



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 11:52 PM
link   

Originally posted by yellowcard

Originally posted by QuetzalcoatlAlien
Capitalism? Freedom? Wow.

I never thought in my life, I'd ever see anyone use those two words in a sentence and actually being serious.


Well, I'm glad that you're well read


www.amazon.com...

www.amazon.com...

[edit on 28-9-2008 by yellowcard]

Great, nice to know you can link.

Capitalism is the ultimate anti-human philosophy



posted on Sep, 28 2008 @ 11:57 PM
link   

Originally posted by yellowcard



That is not true at all and I suggest you brush up on your economic theories, Chicago School believes that the Fed should not set interest rates (that's a New Keynesian policy), and Milton Friedman believed that money supply should keep up with population growth, so that there is no inflation, and no deflation.

This is precisely why the Chicagoist are wrong. They think deflation is a bad thing, and hence have no problem with manipulating interest rates be it through a Central Bank or some other Federal Bureaucracy. Goods and services in the long run should decrease in prices because as production in technology increases it creates cheaper and more affordable goods and services, so long as the money supply is neither increased or decreased, and left alone. Think of computers and televisions; should the money supply be increased because these goods continue to decrease/deflate in price over time?



So you encourage investment like you see in inflationary environment, but also encourage savings, which occurs in a deflationary environment. Don't claim what you just said as fact when you don't even have them right...

No I said, Inflationary environment does not encourage investment it wipes out investment. When in an inflationary environment, consumers are discouraged from saving, since the dollar they poses today will be worth less tomorrow, hence they purchase more goods. As far as entrepreneurs or investors, they too are hampered in a inflationary environment to take on new ventures and thus decrease production, because rates of return on investments are distorted.




Chicago School also believes that government action is the root of inflation, but that inflation naturally occurs in economies because of supply and demand.
Chicagoist think SPENDING causes inflation. I don't think they tie the money supply with inflation. They view inflation as a side effect of demand. When in fact demand, as in aggregate demand is solely caused by increase levels in the money supply.




The price of corn will go UP when their is more demand and not enough supply to meet that demand, that is a naturally occurring inflationary scenario that has nothing to do with the money supply.
This is a price increase, if the price of corn goes up then people cut back on other goods and services to offset this price increase. For example, if corn does go up, and demand is inelastic then consumers will decrease consumption in another good. Reason being is that consumers have a limited amount of money. If it is elastic and the price goes up, then consumers purchase less of the product.

But how do Chicagoist explain the cause of prices for the aggregate DEMAND of ALL goods and services going up or going down in unison? How can we have, the cost of housing, food, energy, and services increase in prices and nothing left for consumers to offset these price increase. The only true explanation for this is that, an increase in the money supply. So, the supply of money has everything to do with inflation.




Friedman argued that the Great Depression had been caused by the Federal Reserve's policies through the 1920s, and worsened in the 1930s. Friedman argues laissez-faire government policy is more desirable than government intervention in the economy. Governments should aim for a neutral monetary policy oriented toward long-run economic growth, by gradual expansion of the money supply. He advocates the quantity theory of money, that general prices are determined by money. Therefore active monetary (e.g. easy credit) or fiscal (e.g. tax and spend) policy can have unintended negative effects. In Capitalism and Freedom (1967) Friedman wrote,

"There is likely to be a lag between the need for action and government recognition of the need; a further lag between recognition of the need for action and the taking of action; and a still further lag between the action and its effects.


en.wikipedia.org...(economics)

Friedman, in his book advocated FED intervention in the marketplace during the great depression, he claims that the Depression would have been averted if Strong, turned on the monetary faucet to increase liquidity, and thus advocated the lowering of interest rates to increase the money supply, during the great depression, which is precisely what his disciple Bernanke is trying to do.


Monetarists, including Milton Friedman and current Federal Reserve System chairman Ben Bernanke, argue that the Great Depression was caused by monetary contraction, the consequence of poor policymaking by the American Federal Reserve System and continuous crisis in the banking system.


Source:en.wikipedia.org...

Instead of blaming the the lowering of interest rates, during the twenties for the cause of the great depression, they blame the lack of loose monetary after the crash, to be the cause. Which is backwards.





[edit on 29-9-2008 by Gateway]



posted on Sep, 29 2008 @ 12:08 AM
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Originally posted by QuetzalcoatlAlien
Great, nice to know you can link.

Capitalism is the ultimate anti-human philosophy


Yeah, because the government speaks for all people
Freedom of choice through a capitalist structure is totally anti-Freedom and anti-Human...because humans hate freedom, trust me, don't ask them though, because they don't really know what they want.




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